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Re: Katie Crippen on Black Swan - two questions

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  • rwondraschek
    Hi Howard, & all! As it was myself who was responsible for making sure that all alternative takes issued by Document Records (after issue 5572) are indeed
    Message 1 of 5 , May 10, 2010
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      Hi Howard, & all!

      As it was myself who was responsible for making sure that all alternative takes issued by Document Records (after issue 5572) are indeed aurally different from each other, I spent quite some time listening to the recordings and actually documented the differences to be heard (musical and/or textual), and that was all sent to Johnny Parth.
      Rest assured that all alternative takes issued by Document Records after 5572 are indeed aurally diffetent.

      Best wishes,

      Ralph Wondraschek, Heidelberg, Germany


      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
      >
      > Any excuse not to do what I should be doing.
      >
      > There are certainly two aurally distinct takes on Document. The differences
      > are not very great. The easiest way to be sure they¹re different is by the
      > fourth line of the chanted passage with piano accompaniment in the middle.
      >
      > On take ­1 on DOCD5602 this is:
      >
      > Oh, play it for your mama till the cows come home.
      >
      > Take ­2 on DOCD5342 starts straight in with
      >
      > Play it for your mama till the cows come home.
      >
      > ³It² is a music roll, and if you believe that you must be in kindergarden!
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > on 10/06/2008 12:51, Howard Rye at howard@... wrote:
      >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > In this instance, Bruyninckx is using the best source, which is Walter
      > > Allen¹s Hendersonia. He lists Henderson for both dates. Therefore Blues &
      > > Gospel Records lists Henderson, because we always follow Hendersonia unless
      > > there is a very good reason indeed not to, and Walter Bruyninkcx has copied
      > > it from us (or conceivably directly from Hendersonia, but why would he
      > > bother?).
      > >
      > > Buster Bailey and Garvin Bushell both recalled recording with Katie Crippen.
      > >
      > > I can see no reason to think that the labels lie in naming Henderson (though
      > > it is certainly true that some Black Swans credited to Henderson are by
      > > others, so this is not conclusive.)
      > >
      > > Takes are complicated by the existence of two distinct issues of Black Swan
      > > 2003 (one with the title of matrix P104 as Sing ŒEm, etc., and one with the
      > > title as Play ŒEm, etc.) which show the takes in a different format. There
      > > are certainly two takes of this master on different copies of the Black
      > > Swan, but it appears that all Play ŒEm¹s are ­2, while Sing ŒEm can be ­1 or
      > > ­2.
      > >
      > > I guessed that Bruynincx¹s P-104-4 was just a typo and this is confirmed
      > > because he has corrected it to ­1 & -2 in the current CD-R edition. Which
      > > edition are you using?
      > >
      > > P-103 (Blind Man) is always take ­2. Take ­3 has been reported in the past
      > > but has never been seen by serious scholars and Helge Thygesen¹s Black Swan
      > > study doesn¹t even consider it. Early 78 collectors were often very confused
      > > about distinguishing takes from pressing codes, stamper numbers and other
      > > numbers put into the run-off areas of discs by and for technicians.
      > >
      > > At the end of the day the only way to be sure of takes is to listen to them
      > > and establish actual differences. Unfortunately I don¹t seem to have done
      > > P-104. Document claim to have issued both takes ­1 on DOCD5602, -2 on
      > > DOCD5342, as you say. One of these days!
      > >
      > > on 10/06/2008 10:25, Agustín Pérez at ekebbbapg@...
      > > <mailto:ekebbbapg%40yahoo.es> wrote:
      > >
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> > Both Katie Crippen sessions for Black Swan (February or March 1921 &
      > >> > June 1921) are listed as by Katie Crippen accompanied by Henderson's
      > >> > Novelty Orchestra.
      > >> >
      > >> > However, there is some controversy between Rust and Bruyninckx (both
      > >> > last editions, CD) on who's playing piano on each date:
      > >> >
      > >> > -Rust lists Fletcher Henderson for the Feb/Mar date (Blind Man's
      > >> > Blues / Sing'em For Mamma, Play'em For Me), while Bruyninckx lists
      > >> > Willie Gant.
      > >> >
      > >> > -On the other hand, Rust lists Willie Gant for the June recording
      > >> > session (That's My Cup Blues / When It's Too Late), while Bruyninckx
      > >> > lists Fletcher Henderson.
      > >> >
      > >> > My copy of Document CD DOCD-5342 "Fletcher Henderson & The Blues
      > >> > Singers, Volume 1" lists Henderson on both dates.
      > >> >
      > >> > Now, the second question:
      > >> >
      > >> > -Rust lists just one take for "Sing'em Mamma, Play'em For Me" (P-104-
      > >> > 2), listed as "Play'em For Mama, Sing'em For Me" and issued first on
      > >> > Black Swan 2003...
      > >> >
      > >> > -...while Bruyninckx shows two different takes, P-104-1 and P-104-4,
      > >> > though he lists both as issued on Black Swan 2003!
      > >> >
      > >> > Document DOCD-5342 lists take 2, following Rust (though correcting
      > >> > the tune title), but I have find in the online LoC catalog that
      > >> > Document DOCD-5602 "Classic Blues, Jazz & Vaudeville Singers, Volume
      > >> > 2, 1920-1926" includes a take 1.
      > >> >
      > >> > Could anybody shed some light on these two different queries?
      > >> >
      > >> > Thanks in advance!
      > >> >
      > >> > Agustín Pérez
      > >> > Madrid (Spain)
      > >
      > > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
      > > howard@... <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk>
      > > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>> Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
      > >>> howard@...
      > >>> Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
      > >>>
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
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