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1923 Morris Past Jazz Masters (was Re: Frogspawn vol. 1)

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  • spacelights
    Thanks very much K-B, I look forward to reading the article. I think I hear Miley s distinctive tone on E Flat Blues No. 2 (compare to Carolina Blues by Mamie
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 7, 2009
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      Thanks very much K-B, I look forward to reading the article.

      I think I hear Miley's distinctive tone on E Flat Blues No. 2 (compare to Carolina Blues by Mamie Smith's Jazz Hounds, a year earlier) and some characteristic phrases on Original Charleston Strut (up to and including the open break). Yes, I do hear brass bass on these... It's listed on Fountain FJ-113/Swaggie 805: in his notes, Rains considers it unlike that on the final session, for which he suggests Harry Hull.

      By 1923, I would hesitate to identify unknown players regionally, due to multifold influences of records and touring (indeed, by then we have influences of influences, a hall of mirrors). Miley had heard King Oliver live in Chicago as early as 1921, which reportedly made a strong impression.

      Where did the identification of "Fat Smitty" with the Blue Rhythm Orchestra originate? As with the Bradford Jazz Phools "Charles Smith", the piano is strictly rhythmic.

      I'd be happy to discuss Morris and related musicians, although current busy involvement in other projects might limit my participation somewhat.

      Best,

      John

      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "kbrau44" <kbrau44@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi John, thanks for your remarks. I´ll have to follow your guide line.
      > Names & Numbers #49 with my article is available from : Stichting Names & Numbers, Reine Claudestraat 15, 1326 JC Almere, The Netherlands.
      > But in short: Bubber Miley is NOT on the first and second couplings, a trumpet player of the "western" (NO) style instead. Charlie Irvis is probably nowhere on these sides, on the first coupling is a hitherto unnoted tuba player, playing strong 4/4 beat (again NO?)as well as an alto player with a singing style just like from NO. So it made me phantasize if some of the Piron men .....? (But, see my article). The most important finds for me were, that it certainly is Charlie "Smitty" or "Fat Smitty" Smith on piano throughout, definitely!, and that Ernest Elliott, if it is him on the last coupling and possibly on tenor, is a much better musician than I ever thought.
      > I have prepared a long list of Th. Morris recordings and am looking for somebody to discuss them. Interested? Best K-B
    • yves francois
      John and K- B      I have been listening to the 1923 sides to quite some detail in the last week or two - excellent jazz, some of the best in NYC at that
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 9, 2009
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        John and K- B
             I have been listening to the 1923 sides to quite some detail in the last week or two - excellent jazz, some of the best in NYC at that point in time (and really some of the best jazz ever). There is a need for a proper CD reissue of this material - the best so far is still the FOUNTAIN LP FJ-113. By the way the first session on the LP liner notes and personnel note the brass bass and drums.   
           I agree with K B regarding the trombone (almost certainly not Irvis)- and notice that the trombonist on the first two sessions is in the pure New Orleans style - wonderful glissando's, worthy of ANYONE who recorded up to that time - and it makes all the difference to the music. The trombonist on the later 2 sessions IS a different man, however, listen to his playing and you will hear the difference. BTW John, the second trumpet on the first two sessions sounds like Miley to me as well. Miley seems to me (or am I crazy) to be the wonderful straight muted solo on '...Charleston" and some lead work on the "E flat Blues #2" )- I feel that the first coupling is the best jazz before the CJB recorded BTW - that's how much I like these sessions. Of course it is Morris' on the incredible solo on "Lonesome Journey Blues" is it actually stunning - one of the greatest trumpet solos on record - you can hear while Miley comes from in his mute work - but with
        differences in phrasing etc. Is
        it  Miley (or whom) on "When The Jazz Band Starts To Play" on the April 1923 session - unlike the first coupling I do not hear it as necessarily Miley, but it sure can be.
           Any comments - K B, John, and another question - how did the personnel listing came for these sessions anyways? Just wondering on this point
        all the best - and I am very interested to discuss Morris at greater length ...
        Yves Francois

        --- On Mon, 12/7/09, spacelights <spacelights@...> wrote:

        From:
        spacelights <spacelights@...>
        Subject: [RedHotJazz] 1923 Morris Past Jazz Masters (was Re: Frogspawn vol. 1)
        To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, December 7, 2009, 4:54 PM
         
              Thanks very much K-B, I look forward to reading the article.



        I think I hear Miley's distinctive tone on E Flat Blues No. 2 (compare to Carolina Blues by Mamie Smith's Jazz Hounds, a year earlier) and some characteristic phrases on Original Charleston Strut (up to and including the open break).  Yes, I do hear brass bass on these...  It's listed on Fountain FJ-113/Swaggie 805:  in his notes, Rains considers it unlike that on the final session, for which he suggests Harry Hull.



        By 1923, I would hesitate to identify unknown players regionally, due to multifold influences of records and touring (indeed, by then we have influences of influences, a hall of mirrors).  Miley had heard King Oliver live in Chicago as early as 1921, which reportedly made a strong impression.



        Where did the identification of "Fat Smitty" with the Blue Rhythm Orchestra originate?  As with the Bradford Jazz Phools "Charles Smith", the piano is strictly rhythmic.



        I'd be happy to discuss Morris and related musicians, although current busy involvement in other projects might limit my participation somewhat.



        Best,



        John



        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogro ups.com, "kbrau44" <kbrau44@... > wrote:

        >

        > Hi John, thanks for your remarks. I´ll have to follow your guide line.

        > Names & Numbers #49 with my article is available from : Stichting Names & Numbers, Reine Claudestraat 15, 1326 JC Almere, The Netherlands.

        > But in short: Bubber Miley is NOT on the first and second couplings, a trumpet player of the "western" (NO) style instead.  Charlie Irvis is probably nowhere on these sides, on the first coupling is a hitherto unnoted tuba player, playing strong 4/4 beat (again NO?)as well as an alto player with a singing style just like from NO. So it made me phantasize if some of the Piron men .....? (But, see my article).  The most important finds for me were, that it certainly is Charlie "Smitty" or "Fat Smitty" Smith on piano throughout, definitely!, and that Ernest Elliott, if it is him on the last coupling and possibly on tenor, is a much better musician than I ever thought.

        > I have prepared a long list of Th. Morris recordings and am looking for somebody to discuss them. Interested?   Best  K-B
      • Mordechai Litzman
        You are asking for a proper CD reissue - Classic Records 823 (France) has a CD that has all Thomas Morris recordings in chronological order from 1923-1926, but
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 10, 2009
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          You are asking for a proper CD reissue - Classic Records 823 (France) has a CD that has all Thomas Morris recordings in chronological order from 1923-1926, but no alternate recordings. However, there are no linear notes at all; no personnel listed; only the dates.
          I note that RHJA has alternate takes available on the 1926 recordings, but almost all the 1923 recordings are missing.




          ________________________________
          From: yves francois <aprestitine@...>
          To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 11:07:44 AM
          Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] 1923 Morris Past Jazz Masters (was Re: Frogspawn vol. 1)


          John and K- B
          I have been listening to the 1923 sides to quite some detail in the last week or two - excellent jazz, some of the best in NYC at that point in time (and really some of the best jazz ever). There is a need for a proper CD reissue of this material - the best so far is still the FOUNTAIN LP FJ-113. By the way the first session on the LP liner notes and personnel note the brass bass and drums.




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