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Frogspawn vol. 1

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  • kbrau44
    Since yesterday I am a new member of this group, having been invited by Michael Rader and I would like to say Hallo to all participants! Having purchased FROG
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 8 5:35 AM
      Since yesterday I am a new member of this group, having been invited by Michael Rader and I would like to say Hallo to all participants! Having purchased FROG 71 Frogspawn Vol.1 recently, there are a couple of points I would like to remark:
      1. Keep Your Temper is not by the Blue Rhythm Orch., but by the Gulf Coast Seven instead, which we have already on an earlier Frog. The personnel of the Blue Rhythm Orch. is according to my research J. Clark, cnt; J. Harrison, tbn; Buster Bailey, clt; Leonard Fields, alt; Charlie "Smitty" (or "Fat Smitty") Smith; Will "Splivey" Escoffery (There is no ten on the BRO, the ten-player on this GCS prob. being one Harrison Jackson)
      2. The arrangement of Beau Koo Jack is a stock arrangement of the Melrose Comp. by Don(ald) Redman, complete with the Armstrong inspired tpt part in close harmony (not in unison as by the liner notes!). I do not know Alex Hill´s part in the composition, as the whole number is just an arrangement with no marked melody. Maybe the tpt part was a Louis solo which Redman wrote down from memory and included it in the arrangement (Where is the Book on Don Redman ???). Armstrong and Clarence Williams use the same arrangement, Armstrong leaving out second tpt and alto parts and Williams leaving out the introduction.
      3. The Mess by Th. Morris was, contrary to the notes, on French RCA 7049! Please, compare bars 9 and 10 of the tune (leaving out the dms introduction) and you will hear the differences in the clt part.
      4. Comparing the Charles Matsons with those on the Gannett LP of years ago results in assigning take numbers 1654-1 and 1655-2 to these titles (?), the Gannett LP having -3 and -1, if correctly listed. But the instrumentation is: tpt, tbn, clt, ten, pno, bjo! No alt, bbs, dms! And: the assumption of the liner notes, that this is Gus Aiken here, is very interesting indeed, as I have been unable up to now to find out Aiken characteristics to identify him. I´ll follow this route.
      5. Frankie Franko : there is no tbn!
      6. Jackson Southern Stompers : the arrangements certainly are not by Benny Carter as in the liner notes. They lack everything I have come to identify with a Carter arrangement. Instead, the arrangement of Take Your Tomorrow is a stock arrangement by one Bob Haring for the Triangle Music Company (Joe Davis), Dusky Stevedore probably as well. (see Never Sell A Copyright, p.45!) Listen to the very Carterish alto solo by (prob.) Edgar Sampson! Beautiful.
      7. And then there is this beautiful blues by the Wells´ Shim Shammers with their beautiful and very modern for the time voicing for kazoos (!) of Baby, Ain´t You Satisfied. A gem. How can a woman live in a shoe??? Can somebody tell me?
    • Nick Dellow
      There is a possibility that the Blue Rhythm Orch s Keep Your Temper will be issued at some stage on another Frogspawn volume. Meanwhile, on behalf of the
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 8 7:27 AM
        There is a possibility that the Blue Rhythm Orch's "Keep Your Temper" will
        be issued at some stage on another Frogspawn volume. Meanwhile, on behalf of
        the Frog team, I apologise for the wrong version being used on Frog DGF 71.

        Nick


        2009/11/8 kbrau44 <kbrau44@...>

        >
        >
        > Since yesterday I am a new member of this group, having been invited by
        > Michael Rader and I would like to say Hallo to all participants! Having
        > purchased FROG 71 Frogspawn Vol.1 recently, there are a couple of points I
        > would like to remark:
        > 1. Keep Your Temper is not by the Blue Rhythm Orch., but by the Gulf Coast
        > Seven instead, which we have already on an earlier Frog. The personnel of
        > the Blue Rhythm Orch. is according to my research J. Clark, cnt; J.
        > Harrison, tbn; Buster Bailey, clt; Leonard Fields, alt; Charlie "Smitty" (or
        > "Fat Smitty") Smith; Will "Splivey" Escoffery (There is no ten on the BRO,
        > the ten-player on this GCS prob. being one Harrison Jackson)
        > 2. The arrangement of Beau Koo Jack is a stock arrangement of the Melrose
        > Comp. by Don(ald) Redman, complete with the Armstrong inspired tpt part in
        > close harmony (not in unison as by the liner notes!). I do not know Alex
        > Hill�s part in the composition, as the whole number is just an arrangement
        > with no marked melody. Maybe the tpt part was a Louis solo which Redman
        > wrote down from memory and included it in the arrangement (Where is the Book
        > on Don Redman ???). Armstrong and Clarence Williams use the same
        > arrangement, Armstrong leaving out second tpt and alto parts and Williams
        > leaving out the introduction.
        > 3. The Mess by Th. Morris was, contrary to the notes, on French RCA 7049!
        > Please, compare bars 9 and 10 of the tune (leaving out the dms introduction)
        > and you will hear the differences in the clt part.
        > 4. Comparing the Charles Matsons with those on the Gannett LP of years ago
        > results in assigning take numbers 1654-1 and 1655-2 to these titles (?), the
        > Gannett LP having -3 and -1, if correctly listed. But the instrumentation
        > is: tpt, tbn, clt, ten, pno, bjo! No alt, bbs, dms! And: the assumption of
        > the liner notes, that this is Gus Aiken here, is very interesting indeed, as
        > I have been unable up to now to find out Aiken characteristics to identify
        > him. I�ll follow this route.
        > 5. Frankie Franko : there is no tbn!
        > 6. Jackson Southern Stompers : the arrangements certainly are not by Benny
        > Carter as in the liner notes. They lack everything I have come to identify
        > with a Carter arrangement. Instead, the arrangement of Take Your Tomorrow is
        > a stock arrangement by one Bob Haring for the Triangle Music Company (Joe
        > Davis), Dusky Stevedore probably as well. (see Never Sell A Copyright,
        > p.45!) Listen to the very Carterish alto solo by (prob.) Edgar Sampson!
        > Beautiful.
        > 7. And then there is this beautiful blues by the Wells� Shim Shammers with
        > their beautiful and very modern for the time voicing for kazoos (!) of Baby,
        > Ain�t You Satisfied. A gem. How can a woman live in a shoe??? Can somebody
        > tell me?
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Michael Rader
        ... Dear KB and anyone else who wants/needs to know: This refers (or paraphrases) a very old English nursery rhyme:
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 8 8:08 AM
          >How can a woman live in a
          > shoe??? Can somebody tell me?

          Dear KB and anyone else who wants/needs to know:
          This refers (or paraphrases) a very old English nursery rhyme: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_was_an_Old_Woman_Who_Lived_in_a_Shoe

          The article also addresses possible meanings. A while back, Howard Rye pointed out that this was probably one of the first songs about birth control(!)

          Michael Rader
          Karlsruhe, Germany
          _____________________________________________________________
          DSL-Preisknaller: DSL-Komplettpakete von WEB.DE schon für
          16,99 Euro/mtl.!* Hier klicken: http://produkte.web.de/go/02/
        • Michael
          K.B., everyone, ... The Morris sides on LP were something of a confusion. There were LPs on French RCA and Collectors Classics which partly overlapped and
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 8 11:35 PM
            K.B., everyone,

            > 3. The Mess by Th. Morris was, contrary to the notes, on French RCA 7049! Please, compare bars 9 and 10 of the tune (leaving out the dms introduction) and you will hear the differences in the clt part.

            The Morris sides on LP were something of a confusion. There were LPs on French RCA and Collectors Classics which partly overlapped and partly had different takes.

            The most significant question in this respect is currently: does the take contained on the Frogspawn complete Morris' instrumental output for Victor which was mainly on Frog DGF1, or are there still known takes missing?

            > 4. Comparing the Charles Matsons with those on the Gannett LP of years ago results in assigning take numbers 1654-1 and 1655-2 to these titles (?), the Gannett LP having -3 and -1, if correctly listed. But the instrumentation is: tpt, tbn, clt, ten, pno, bjo! No alt, bbs, dms! And: the assumption of the liner notes, that this is Gus Aiken here, is very interesting indeed, as I have been unable up to now to find out Aiken characteristics to identify him. I´ll follow this route.

            The original used for the Frogspawn sounds as though it was in far better condition than that used for the Gannett or the Rarities EP which probably had the same source as the Gannett.
            > 5. Frankie Franko : there is no tbn!

            Right. It's strange no-one has noticed this before.

            > 6. Jackson Southern Stompers : the arrangements certainly are not by Benny Carter as in the liner notes. They lack everything I have come to identify with a Carter arrangement. Instead, the arrangement of Take Your Tomorrow is a stock arrangement by one Bob Haring for the Triangle Music Company (Joe Davis), Dusky Stevedore probably as well. (see Never Sell A Copyright, p.45!) Listen to the very Carterish alto solo by (prob.) Edgar Sampson! Beautiful.

            We've recently discussed the possibility of this being Cliff Jackson's Krazy Kats. Do others also hear Sampson, which would discount the Cliff J. theory? Back to Charlie Johnson?

            Michael Rader
          • Howard Rye
            The trombonist goes back to New Hot Discography at least, but is all the odder because the personnel as originally given to Eugene Williams and reported in
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 9 2:00 AM
              The trombonist goes back to New Hot Discography at least, but is all the
              odder because the personnel as originally given to Eugene Williams and
              reported in Index to Jazz does not include a trombone, so either someone
              thinks they hear one (I haven¹t checked) or a personnel of the band at the
              Golden Lily appears somewhere which includes a trombonist.

              Punch Miller recalled some different names for the band (See Storyville
              1998-9, 158). Weirder still, Laurie Wright published a summary of known
              personnels at the Golden Lily in Storyville 2002-03 (163) none of which
              include Ed Burke.

              I have a note that there is a relevant interview with Leon Washington in
              Record Research 99.


              on 09/11/2009 07:35, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:
              >
              >> > 5. Frankie Franko : there is no tbn!
              >
              > Right. It's strange no-one has noticed this before.
              >


              Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
              howard@...
              Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Howard Rye
              I perhaps should have added that if anyone thinks they are hearing things when they attempt to use the details of the difference between the takes in the notes
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 9 2:15 AM
                I perhaps should have added that if anyone thinks they are hearing things
                when they attempt to use the details of the difference between the takes in
                the notes to DGF71, it¹s not you that¹s hearing things!

                The phrase ³weren¹t that some good news² really does not appear in either
                take. We¹ve all done it. May I be spared ever putting it into print.
                Actually it¹s a bit late for that hope.


                on 09/11/2009 10:00, Howard Rye at howard@... wrote:

                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > The trombonist goes back to New Hot Discography at least, but is all the
                > odder because the personnel as originally given to Eugene Williams and
                > reported in Index to Jazz does not include a trombone, so either someone
                > thinks they hear one (I haven¹t checked) or a personnel of the band at the
                > Golden Lily appears somewhere which includes a trombonist.
                >
                > Punch Miller recalled some different names for the band (See Storyville
                > 1998-9, 158). Weirder still, Laurie Wright published a summary of known
                > personnels at the Golden Lily in Storyville 2002-03 (163) none of which
                > include Ed Burke.
                >
                > I have a note that there is a relevant interview with Leon Washington in
                > Record Research 99.
                >
                > on 09/11/2009 07:35, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@...
                > <mailto:Rader.Michael%40web.de> wrote:
                >> >
                >>>> >> > 5. Frankie Franko : there is no tbn!
                >> >
                >> > Right. It's strange no-one has noticed this before.
                >> >
                >
                > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                > howard@... <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk>
                > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >


                Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                howard@...
                Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Michael Rader
                Should I take this as a suggestion that we should listen closely to the lyrics on both takes? Incidentally, given the scarcity of Punch Miller recordings from
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 9 2:38 AM
                  Should I take this as a suggestion that we should listen closely to the lyrics on both takes?

                  Incidentally, given the scarcity of Punch Miller recordings from the 1920s and the high esteem in which Punch was held, are there any suggestions why the Frankos were reissued so comparatively late in the day: The first reissue I'm personally aware of was Collectors Items 001, or were there earlier reiisues?

                  Michael Rader


                  > I perhaps should have added that if anyone thinks they are hearing
                  > things
                  > when they attempt to use the details of the difference between the
                  > takes in
                  > the notes to DGF71, it¹s not you that¹s hearing things!
                  >
                  > The phrase ³weren¹t that some good news² really does not appear in
                  > either
                  > take. We¹ve all done it. May I be spared ever putting it into print.
                  > Actually it¹s a bit late for that hope.
                  >

                  _____________________________________________________________
                  DSL-Preisknaller: DSL-Komplettpakete von WEB.DE schon für
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                • Howard Rye
                  Well, as I hear it, the easily annotatable difference is as follows: C-6180 orig (Frog DGF9); alt (Herwin H108, Frog DGF71) First line of vocal orig
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 9 3:10 AM
                    Well, as I hear it, the easily annotatable difference is as follows:

                    C-6180 orig (Frog DGF9); alt (Herwin H108, Frog DGF71)
                    First line of vocal
                    orig Well, standing on Garfield, mama, near the El
                    Whoa, standing on Garfield, mama, near blue El
                    alt Well, standing on Garfield, mama, near blue El
                    Oh, standing on Garfield, mama, near the El

                    There were three dub 78s: Biltmore 1037 and HJCA 603 in the U.S. and Jazz
                    Collector L101 in Britain. The Jazz Collector was probably available into
                    the 60s and this probably soaked up such demand as there was. I don't know
                    of any other LPs.




                    on 09/11/2009 10:38, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:

                    > Should I take this as a suggestion that we should listen closely to the lyrics
                    > on both takes?
                    >
                    > Incidentally, given the scarcity of Punch Miller recordings from the 1920s and
                    > the high esteem in which Punch was held, are there any suggestions why the
                    > Frankos were reissued so comparatively late in the day: The first reissue I'm
                    > personally aware of was Collectors Items 001, or were there earlier reiisues?
                    >
                    > Michael Rader
                    >
                    >
                    >> I perhaps should have added that if anyone thinks they are hearing
                    >> things
                    >> when they attempt to use the details of the difference between the
                    >> takes in
                    >> the notes to DGF71, it¹s not you that¹s hearing things!
                    >>
                    >> The phrase ³weren¹t that some good news² really does not appear in
                    >> either
                    >> take. We¹ve all done it. May I be spared ever putting it into print.
                    >> Actually it¹s a bit late for that hope.
                    >>
                    >
                    > _____________________________________________________________
                    > DSL-Preisknaller: DSL-Komplettpakete von WEB.DE schon für
                    > 16,99 Euro/mtl.!* Hier klicken: http://produkte.web.de/go/02/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                    howard@...
                    Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                  • Howard Rye
                    The survival of English nursery rhymes in American and then in African-American culture is a fascinating topic on which there must be some literature. I was
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 9 3:22 AM
                      The survival of English nursery rhymes in American and then in
                      African-American culture is a fascinating topic on which there must be some
                      literature.

                      I was recently listening to a recording by Sam Chatmon in which Little Boy
                      Blue, Little Sally Walker, and Jack and Jill are all alluded to in one song
                      (Open Your Book, Your Daddy Got To Read With You, 1976, Mbirafon CD102).

                      The survival of Jack and Jill no doubt has to do with its risque undertones,
                      which are in the original though concealed from children (adults seem to
                      like in-jokes made at the expense of children's innocence). John Brunious
                      used to incorporate Jack and Jill verses into Shake That Thing and at the
                      Pizza Express, London on 27 October 2005 actually added a line about Jack
                      and Jill going up the hill and Jill coming down with $20, causing a mass
                      eruption amongst younger female members of the audience who had evidently
                      never thought of this before.

                      All that said, I don't recall another reference to Old Mother Hubbard. Which
                      proves absolutely nothing.


                      on 08/11/2009 16:08, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:

                      >> How can a woman live in a
                      >> shoe??? Can somebody tell me?
                      >
                      > Dear KB and anyone else who wants/needs to know:
                      > This refers (or paraphrases) a very old English nursery rhyme:
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_was_an_Old_Woman_Who_Lived_in_a_Shoe
                      >
                      > The article also addresses possible meanings. A while back, Howard Rye pointed
                      > out that this was probably one of the first songs about birth control(!)
                      >
                      > Michael Rader
                      > Karlsruhe, Germany
                      > _____________________________________________________________
                      > DSL-Preisknaller: DSL-Komplettpakete von WEB.DE schon für
                      > 16,99 Euro/mtl.!* Hier klicken: http://produkte.web.de/go/02/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                      howard@...
                      Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                    • Nick Dellow
                      According to one reference, the lines:- There was an old woman who lived in a shoe She didn t have no children because she knowed what to do find their source
                      Message 10 of 17 , Nov 9 3:58 AM
                        According to one reference, the lines:-

                        There was an old woman who lived in a shoe
                        She didn't have no children because she knowed what to do

                        find their source in the post-war spirit of the 1920s, though rhymes about
                        "the old woman who lived in a shoe" have a lineage that stretches as least
                        as far back as the start of the 1700s, where one finds a folk song that
                        contains a line about an "old woman who lived under a hill". All such folk
                        songs or rhymes seem to be obviously euphemistic in nature. It has been
                        claimed that the "shoe" refers to the British Isles, though, not
                        surprisingly, Italy has also been suggested. There are numerous
                        contenders for the title of "the old woman", from Mother Goose to Queen
                        Caroline, the wife of George II, who bore him eight children.



                        2009/11/9 Howard Rye <howard@...>

                        >
                        >
                        > The survival of English nursery rhymes in American and then in
                        > African-American culture is a fascinating topic on which there must be some
                        > literature.
                        >
                        > I was recently listening to a recording by Sam Chatmon in which Little Boy
                        > Blue, Little Sally Walker, and Jack and Jill are all alluded to in one song
                        > (Open Your Book, Your Daddy Got To Read With You, 1976, Mbirafon CD102).
                        >
                        > The survival of Jack and Jill no doubt has to do with its risque
                        > undertones,
                        > which are in the original though concealed from children (adults seem to
                        > like in-jokes made at the expense of children's innocence). John Brunious
                        > used to incorporate Jack and Jill verses into Shake That Thing and at the
                        > Pizza Express, London on 27 October 2005 actually added a line about Jack
                        > and Jill going up the hill and Jill coming down with $20, causing a mass
                        > eruption amongst younger female members of the audience who had evidently
                        > never thought of this before.
                        >
                        > All that said, I don't recall another reference to Old Mother Hubbard.
                        > Which
                        > proves absolutely nothing.
                        >
                        > on 08/11/2009 16:08, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@...<Rader.Michael%40web.de>wrote:
                        >
                        > >> How can a woman live in a
                        > >> shoe??? Can somebody tell me?
                        > >
                        > > Dear KB and anyone else who wants/needs to know:
                        > > This refers (or paraphrases) a very old English nursery rhyme:
                        > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_was_an_Old_Woman_Who_Lived_in_a_Shoe
                        > >
                        > > The article also addresses possible meanings. A while back, Howard Rye
                        > pointed
                        > > out that this was probably one of the first songs about birth control(!)
                        > >
                        > > Michael Rader
                        > > Karlsruhe, Germany
                        > > __________________________________________________________
                        > > DSL-Preisknaller: DSL-Komplettpakete von WEB.DE <http://web.de/> schon
                        > f�r
                        > > 16,99 Euro/mtl.!* Hier klicken: http://produkte.web.de/go/02/
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                        > howard@... <howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk>
                        > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • spacelights
                        About Morris s 1926 Victor sides... kbrau44 is correct: The Mess-2 was in fact included on RCA FPM1 7049. Georgia Grind-2 has been listed (in Lord, and
                        Message 11 of 17 , Nov 15 1:38 PM
                          About Morris's 1926 Victor sides... kbrau44 is correct: The Mess-2 was in fact included on RCA FPM1 7049.

                          Georgia Grind-2 has been listed (in Lord, and Storyville 2002-3) as appearing on Only For Collectors OFC 17. That release's printed cover does not list matrices; the one I examined included a handwritten "36047-2" for Georgia Grind, yet aurally it was the usual -3.

                          Some of the instrumentals were reissued on 7" Swaggie and Natchez discs: I haven't heard those releases, nor Collector's Classics CC 49. The New Orleans Blue Five master takes also appeared on Herwin 107, wonderful album.

                          Best wishes,

                          John

                          ps How speculative is Rust's firmly stated Morris/Nanton/Fuller/Shilkret/Waller with Six Hot Babies on 17 November 1926 (I'm guessing Victor files give instrumentation, and show Nat Shilkret present)? 'Fats In Fact' has Shilkret firmly on piano, and the rest named but uncertain. These lost performances followed Waller's first pipe organ sides: a momentous occasion (to me, anyway).

                          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <Rader.Michael@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > The Morris sides on LP were something of a confusion. There were LPs on French RCA and Collectors Classics which partly overlapped and partly had different takes.
                          >
                          > The most significant question in this respect is currently: does the take contained on the Frogspawn complete Morris' instrumental output for Victor which was mainly on Frog DGF1, or are there still known takes missing?
                        • kbrau44
                          Hi John, I would also wish somebody to find alternate takes of Lazy Drag, Charleston Stampede and Georgia, but, until then, let´s be happy to have The Mess
                          Message 12 of 17 , Nov 22 8:41 AM
                            Hi John, I would also wish somebody to find alternate takes of Lazy Drag, Charleston Stampede and Georgia, but, until then, let´s be happy to have The Mess -2.
                            But, as you seem to be interested in Thomas Morris: you might also be interested in an article I have published in Names & Numbers #49 (Dutch discographical magazine) on the Th. Morris´ Past Jazz Masters with some unexpected finds (tpt players and pianist and others) K-B

                            --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "spacelights" <spacelights@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > About Morris's 1926 Victor sides... kbrau44 is correct: The Mess-2 was in fact included on RCA FPM1 7049.
                            >
                            > Georgia Grind-2 has been listed (in Lord, and Storyville 2002-3) as appearing on Only For Collectors OFC 17. That release's printed cover does not list matrices; the one I examined included a handwritten "36047-2" for Georgia Grind, yet aurally it was the usual -3.
                            >
                            > Some of the instrumentals were reissued on 7" Swaggie and Natchez discs: I haven't heard those releases, nor Collector's Classics CC 49. The New Orleans Blue Five master takes also appeared on Herwin 107, wonderful album.
                            >
                            > Best wishes,
                            >
                            > John
                            >
                            > ps How speculative is Rust's firmly stated Morris/Nanton/Fuller/Shilkret/Waller with Six Hot Babies on 17 November 1926 (I'm guessing Victor files give instrumentation, and show Nat Shilkret present)? 'Fats In Fact' has Shilkret firmly on piano, and the rest named but uncertain. These lost performances followed Waller's first pipe organ sides: a momentous occasion (to me, anyway).
                            >
                            > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <Rader.Michael@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > The Morris sides on LP were something of a confusion. There were LPs on French RCA and Collectors Classics which partly overlapped and partly had different takes.
                            > >
                            > > The most significant question in this respect is currently: does the take contained on the Frogspawn complete Morris' instrumental output for Victor which was mainly on Frog DGF1, or are there still known takes missing?
                            >
                          • spacelights
                            Hi K-B: I haven t seen a copy of Names and Numbers, would very much like to read the article. The Past Jazz Masters are important and overlooked: I consider
                            Message 13 of 17 , Nov 22 10:57 PM
                              Hi K-B:

                              I haven't seen a copy of Names and Numbers, would very much like to read the article. The Past Jazz Masters are important and overlooked: I consider "Original Charleston Strut" as good as any jazz recording up to that time (circa February 1923), tenor break notwithstanding...

                              As to personnel, the rich tenor lead towards the end of "Lonesome Journey Blues" sounds reminiscent of Hawkins: this evolving studio group seems to have included other Mamie Smith's Jazz Hounds as well. Fletcher Henderson (with Hawkins) would cover "Lonesome Journey Blues" and "The Bull Blues" in December 1923, so there are circumstantial links before and after.

                              "When The Jazz Band Starts To Play" contains a strong open horn solo by the second cornetist, consistent with the open solo on Miley's "Those Blues". Early open Miley is something a problem, from lack of confirmed examples (identifying him on the 1921-22 Mamie Smiths also difficult for this reason). His tone does seem evident, and I hear distinct similarities to riffs and phrasing of his muted work with the Kansas City Five.

                              On "Just Blues, That's All" (also covered by Henderson), a "Mr. Smith" is exhorted during the piano solo. Apparently one Charles Smith played piano the same month with Perry Bradford's Jazz Phools, on Paramount 12041 (Garvin Bushell and Bradford would each later recall Morris in print). It has marked Smith's only appearance in discography, which suggests recollection by a musician (Bradford?). However, the Jazz Phools pianist provides nearly inaudible rhythmic support only, making it difficult to gauge potential involvement with the Past Jazz Masters.

                              Irvis would play club engagements with Willie "The Lion" Smith in late 1923; the latter denied involvement with these sides, also reportedly he was not in New York at the time.

                              Fascinating subjects (to me anyway)...

                              John

                              --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "kbrau44" <kbrau44@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi John, I would also wish somebody to find alternate takes of Lazy Drag, Charleston Stampede and Georgia, but, until then, let´s be happy to have The Mess -2.
                              > But, as you seem to be interested in Thomas Morris: you might also be interested in an article I have published in Names & Numbers #49 (Dutch discographical magazine) on the Th. Morris´ Past Jazz Masters with some unexpected finds (tpt players and pianist and others) K-B
                            • kbrau44
                              Hi John, thanks for your remarks. I´ll have to follow your guide line. Names & Numbers #49 with my article is available from : Stichting Names & Numbers,
                              Message 14 of 17 , Nov 30 1:12 AM
                                Hi John, thanks for your remarks. I´ll have to follow your guide line.
                                Names & Numbers #49 with my article is available from : Stichting Names & Numbers, Reine Claudestraat 15, 1326 JC Almere, The Netherlands.
                                But in short: Bubber Miley is NOT on the first and second couplings, a trumpet player of the "western" (NO) style instead. Charlie Irvis is probably nowhere on these sides, on the first coupling is a hitherto unnoted tuba player, playing strong 4/4 beat (again NO?)as well as an alto player with a singing style just like from NO. So it made me phantasize if some of the Piron men .....? (But, see my article). The most important finds for me were, that it certainly is Charlie "Smitty" or "Fat Smitty" Smith on piano throughout, definitely!, and that Ernest Elliott, if it is him on the last coupling and possibly on tenor, is a much better musician than I ever thought.
                                I have prepared a long list of Th. Morris recordings and am looking for somebody to discuss them. Interested? Best K-B

                                --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "spacelights" <spacelights@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi K-B:
                                >
                                > I haven't seen a copy of Names and Numbers, would very much like to read the article. The Past Jazz Masters are important and overlooked: I consider "Original Charleston Strut" as good as any jazz recording up to that time (circa February 1923), tenor break notwithstanding...
                                >
                                > As to personnel, the rich tenor lead towards the end of "Lonesome Journey Blues" sounds reminiscent of Hawkins: this evolving studio group seems to have included other Mamie Smith's Jazz Hounds as well. Fletcher Henderson (with Hawkins) would cover "Lonesome Journey Blues" and "The Bull Blues" in December 1923, so there are circumstantial links before and after.
                                >
                                > "When The Jazz Band Starts To Play" contains a strong open horn solo by the second cornetist, consistent with the open solo on Miley's "Those Blues". Early open Miley is something a problem, from lack of confirmed examples (identifying him on the 1921-22 Mamie Smiths also difficult for this reason). His tone does seem evident, and I hear distinct similarities to riffs and phrasing of his muted work with the Kansas City Five.
                                >
                                > On "Just Blues, That's All" (also covered by Henderson), a "Mr. Smith" is exhorted during the piano solo. Apparently one Charles Smith played piano the same month with Perry Bradford's Jazz Phools, on Paramount 12041 (Garvin Bushell and Bradford would each later recall Morris in print). It has marked Smith's only appearance in discography, which suggests recollection by a musician (Bradford?). However, the Jazz Phools pianist provides nearly inaudible rhythmic support only, making it difficult to gauge potential involvement with the Past Jazz Masters.
                                >
                                > Irvis would play club engagements with Willie "The Lion" Smith in late 1923; the latter denied involvement with these sides, also reportedly he was not in New York at the time.
                                >
                                > Fascinating subjects (to me anyway)...
                                >
                                > John
                                >
                                > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "kbrau44" <kbrau44@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hi John, I would also wish somebody to find alternate takes of Lazy Drag, Charleston Stampede and Georgia, but, until then, let´s be happy to have The Mess -2.
                                > > But, as you seem to be interested in Thomas Morris: you might also be interested in an article I have published in Names & Numbers #49 (Dutch discographical magazine) on the Th. Morris´ Past Jazz Masters with some unexpected finds (tpt players and pianist and others) K-B
                                >
                              • spacelights
                                Thanks very much K-B, I look forward to reading the article. I think I hear Miley s distinctive tone on E Flat Blues No. 2 (compare to Carolina Blues by Mamie
                                Message 15 of 17 , Dec 7, 2009
                                  Thanks very much K-B, I look forward to reading the article.

                                  I think I hear Miley's distinctive tone on E Flat Blues No. 2 (compare to Carolina Blues by Mamie Smith's Jazz Hounds, a year earlier) and some characteristic phrases on Original Charleston Strut (up to and including the open break). Yes, I do hear brass bass on these... It's listed on Fountain FJ-113/Swaggie 805: in his notes, Rains considers it unlike that on the final session, for which he suggests Harry Hull.

                                  By 1923, I would hesitate to identify unknown players regionally, due to multifold influences of records and touring (indeed, by then we have influences of influences, a hall of mirrors). Miley had heard King Oliver live in Chicago as early as 1921, which reportedly made a strong impression.

                                  Where did the identification of "Fat Smitty" with the Blue Rhythm Orchestra originate? As with the Bradford Jazz Phools "Charles Smith", the piano is strictly rhythmic.

                                  I'd be happy to discuss Morris and related musicians, although current busy involvement in other projects might limit my participation somewhat.

                                  Best,

                                  John

                                  --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "kbrau44" <kbrau44@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi John, thanks for your remarks. I´ll have to follow your guide line.
                                  > Names & Numbers #49 with my article is available from : Stichting Names & Numbers, Reine Claudestraat 15, 1326 JC Almere, The Netherlands.
                                  > But in short: Bubber Miley is NOT on the first and second couplings, a trumpet player of the "western" (NO) style instead. Charlie Irvis is probably nowhere on these sides, on the first coupling is a hitherto unnoted tuba player, playing strong 4/4 beat (again NO?)as well as an alto player with a singing style just like from NO. So it made me phantasize if some of the Piron men .....? (But, see my article). The most important finds for me were, that it certainly is Charlie "Smitty" or "Fat Smitty" Smith on piano throughout, definitely!, and that Ernest Elliott, if it is him on the last coupling and possibly on tenor, is a much better musician than I ever thought.
                                  > I have prepared a long list of Th. Morris recordings and am looking for somebody to discuss them. Interested? Best K-B
                                • yves francois
                                  John and K- B      I have been listening to the 1923 sides to quite some detail in the last week or two - excellent jazz, some of the best in NYC at that
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Dec 9, 2009
                                    John and K- B
                                         I have been listening to the 1923 sides to quite some detail in the last week or two - excellent jazz, some of the best in NYC at that point in time (and really some of the best jazz ever). There is a need for a proper CD reissue of this material - the best so far is still the FOUNTAIN LP FJ-113. By the way the first session on the LP liner notes and personnel note the brass bass and drums.   
                                       I agree with K B regarding the trombone (almost certainly not Irvis)- and notice that the trombonist on the first two sessions is in the pure New Orleans style - wonderful glissando's, worthy of ANYONE who recorded up to that time - and it makes all the difference to the music. The trombonist on the later 2 sessions IS a different man, however, listen to his playing and you will hear the difference. BTW John, the second trumpet on the first two sessions sounds like Miley to me as well. Miley seems to me (or am I crazy) to be the wonderful straight muted solo on '...Charleston" and some lead work on the "E flat Blues #2" )- I feel that the first coupling is the best jazz before the CJB recorded BTW - that's how much I like these sessions. Of course it is Morris' on the incredible solo on "Lonesome Journey Blues" is it actually stunning - one of the greatest trumpet solos on record - you can hear while Miley comes from in his mute work - but with
                                    differences in phrasing etc. Is
                                    it  Miley (or whom) on "When The Jazz Band Starts To Play" on the April 1923 session - unlike the first coupling I do not hear it as necessarily Miley, but it sure can be.
                                       Any comments - K B, John, and another question - how did the personnel listing came for these sessions anyways? Just wondering on this point
                                    all the best - and I am very interested to discuss Morris at greater length ...
                                    Yves Francois

                                    --- On Mon, 12/7/09, spacelights <spacelights@...> wrote:

                                    From:
                                    spacelights <spacelights@...>
                                    Subject: [RedHotJazz] 1923 Morris Past Jazz Masters (was Re: Frogspawn vol. 1)
                                    To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Monday, December 7, 2009, 4:54 PM
                                     
                                          Thanks very much K-B, I look forward to reading the article.



                                    I think I hear Miley's distinctive tone on E Flat Blues No. 2 (compare to Carolina Blues by Mamie Smith's Jazz Hounds, a year earlier) and some characteristic phrases on Original Charleston Strut (up to and including the open break).  Yes, I do hear brass bass on these...  It's listed on Fountain FJ-113/Swaggie 805:  in his notes, Rains considers it unlike that on the final session, for which he suggests Harry Hull.



                                    By 1923, I would hesitate to identify unknown players regionally, due to multifold influences of records and touring (indeed, by then we have influences of influences, a hall of mirrors).  Miley had heard King Oliver live in Chicago as early as 1921, which reportedly made a strong impression.



                                    Where did the identification of "Fat Smitty" with the Blue Rhythm Orchestra originate?  As with the Bradford Jazz Phools "Charles Smith", the piano is strictly rhythmic.



                                    I'd be happy to discuss Morris and related musicians, although current busy involvement in other projects might limit my participation somewhat.



                                    Best,



                                    John



                                    --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogro ups.com, "kbrau44" <kbrau44@... > wrote:

                                    >

                                    > Hi John, thanks for your remarks. I´ll have to follow your guide line.

                                    > Names & Numbers #49 with my article is available from : Stichting Names & Numbers, Reine Claudestraat 15, 1326 JC Almere, The Netherlands.

                                    > But in short: Bubber Miley is NOT on the first and second couplings, a trumpet player of the "western" (NO) style instead.  Charlie Irvis is probably nowhere on these sides, on the first coupling is a hitherto unnoted tuba player, playing strong 4/4 beat (again NO?)as well as an alto player with a singing style just like from NO. So it made me phantasize if some of the Piron men .....? (But, see my article).  The most important finds for me were, that it certainly is Charlie "Smitty" or "Fat Smitty" Smith on piano throughout, definitely!, and that Ernest Elliott, if it is him on the last coupling and possibly on tenor, is a much better musician than I ever thought.

                                    > I have prepared a long list of Th. Morris recordings and am looking for somebody to discuss them. Interested?   Best  K-B
                                  • Mordechai Litzman
                                    You are asking for a proper CD reissue - Classic Records 823 (France) has a CD that has all Thomas Morris recordings in chronological order from 1923-1926, but
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Dec 10, 2009
                                      You are asking for a proper CD reissue - Classic Records 823 (France) has a CD that has all Thomas Morris recordings in chronological order from 1923-1926, but no alternate recordings. However, there are no linear notes at all; no personnel listed; only the dates.
                                      I note that RHJA has alternate takes available on the 1926 recordings, but almost all the 1923 recordings are missing.




                                      ________________________________
                                      From: yves francois <aprestitine@...>
                                      To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 11:07:44 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] 1923 Morris Past Jazz Masters (was Re: Frogspawn vol. 1)


                                      John and K- B
                                      I have been listening to the 1923 sides to quite some detail in the last week or two - excellent jazz, some of the best in NYC at that point in time (and really some of the best jazz ever). There is a need for a proper CD reissue of this material - the best so far is still the FOUNTAIN LP FJ-113. By the way the first session on the LP liner notes and personnel note the brass bass and drums.




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