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Re: Birmingham Bluetette

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  • Andrew
    I am very familiar with the Birmingham Bluetette recording of Old Man Blues (courtesy of the Jimmy Blythe CD on Document, although it is Tindull and NOT
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 4, 2009
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      I am very familiar with the Birmingham Bluetette recording of "Old Man Blues" (courtesy of the Jimmy Blythe CD on Document, although it is Tindull and NOT Blythe on piano), to the point that when I found the Klien Tindull Paramount Serenaders recordings on that Frog CD, and listened to the sound samples of "So's Your Old Man", I immediately recognized it and thought "THAT'S IT!". It is the same recording reissued, just like the flip side of the Bluetette recording is another band reissued, renamed, and with the tune title changed.

      http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:avfqxqrjldfe

      For those who love hot southside Chicago piano players, you might also get a kick out of the three Clarence M. Jones sides at the end of the CD. Unfortunately, they did not reissue his side "The Arm Breaker" recorded as with his "Wonder Orchestra", but this one is still available from Folkways, now on CD:

      http://www.folkways.si.edu/TrackDetails.aspx?itemid=4661

      There is some connection between Fred Rose (the composer of "Arm Breaker") and Clarence Jones. Both Rose and Jones were Chicago based and had a hot piano style, although reportedly Rose was white (can anyone confirm this?). Both made rolls for Columbia/Capitol in Chicago, as did Blythe (Rose made one of his most famous tune, "Deep Henderson"; while Jones did "Jazzin' Baby Blues" and one or two others).

      However, Jones' most prolific roll work was with the Wurlitzer Rolla Artis company in Cincinnati, and its successor the Vocalstyle Music Company; and then later the Imperial company in Chicago where he made numerous fine blues rolls (mostly straight-8ths) and influenced Roy Bargy and Charley Straight with his playing. I believe this is before or around the same time that he taught Jimmy Blythe.

      What was Tindull's history and his connections? How does he sound so much like Jones, Blythe, and Clarence Johnson? These men obviously must have met Tindull at one time. Tindull has an all-out super-hot rent-party atmosphere to his playing (can I say "balls-to-the-wall" or are we supposed to keep this group G-rated?) that sounds very good to me. I would love to know how long he lived, especially if it means he left behind later [home] recordings, no matter how crude. His stuff with Vance Dixon as "Dixon's Jazz Duo" positively breathes fire!

      For point of reference, Clarence M. Jones died in 1949, Jimmy Blythe died in 1931, and Clarence A. "Jelly" Johnson died in 1933.

      Andrew Barrett

      P.S. so Mr. Scott Alexander, would you please kindly change your page for the Bluetette here:

      http://www.redhotjazz.com/bluetette.html

      To reflect the true origin of "Old Man Blues"? I am VERY familiar with both Jimmy Blythe and Klien/Klein/Kline Tindull/Tindall/Tyndall and can tell you for sure that this is not Blythe and is Tindull's band.

      In other news, a friend of mine just sent a tape with all of the King Mutt sides and so now I'm supposed to say if the pianist is Jimmy Blythe or Frank Melrose. This should be easy since their styles are like night and day.



      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
      >
      > on 26/5/05 22:42, folke613 at folke613@... wrote:
      >
      > >> Thanks for your reply. However, I can't see the connection
      > > between "So Is Your Old Man" listed on Frog Records and "Old Man
      > > Blues." I do not have access to Klien Tindall's Paramount Serenaders,
      > > but from listening to other recordings on the Archives it seems that
      > > they played a less hot style, more dance-band oriented.
      > > Please listen to the Old Man Blues recording and let me know what you
      > > think.
      > >
      > > The original issue on Paramount 12377 is credited to Klein Tindull's
      > > Paramount Serenaders. The pianist is certainly Klein Tindull!
      >
      > Don't really understand this.
      >
      > The whole session is on Frog DGF13 Alexander Where's That Band?
      >
      > 2600-1 Down By The Amazon (vocal by Dave Smallwood), issued Paramount 12377
      > 2601-1 issued as Old Man Blues on Herwin 92019
      > 2601-2 So Is Your Old Man, issued Paramount 12377
      >
      > The matrix numbers prove the Herwin title is an alternative take of the
      > Paramount, not that there is any doubt. Tha Paramount is one of the rarest
      > of all vintage jazz 78s and no copy was known until the 1980s if I recall
      > correctly, which is why earlier editions of Rust cannot correctly identify
      > the Herwin track. The 1969 Rust can say only that "this does not seem to be
      > part of the Blythe's Ragamuffins session that immediately followed it." In
      > Rust 5 it is double-listed in a way which makes clear the Paramount turned
      > up during the manuscript's preparation.
      >
      > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
      > howard@...
      > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
      >
    • Howard Rye
      Bob Eagle and I wrote up Cline Tindull (which was how he signed his name) for Names & Numbers 46. He was born 21 October 1899, died Chicago 4 May 1938, so I
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 4, 2009
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        Bob Eagle and I wrote up Cline Tindull (which was how he signed his name)
        for Names & Numbers 46. He was born 21 October 1899, died Chicago 4 May
        1938, so I guess private recordings are pretty unlikely. The guys with the
        home recording equipment were mostly interested in what was fashionable.

        As the second pianist in Sammy Stewart¹s band he must have come in contact
        with pretty well everyone. His and Vance Dixon¹s recording bands are
        essentially small groups from Stewart¹s band (an old tradition).

        I also believe Fred Rose was white but have never actually researched this.
        Refresh my memory. How do we know that the Rose who composed Arm Breaker was
        Dave Rose? Is there a roll of it by him?


        on 04/11/2009 10:18, Andrew at rag1916@... wrote:

        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > I am very familiar with the Birmingham Bluetette recording of "Old Man Blues"
        > (courtesy of the Jimmy Blythe CD on Document, although it is Tindull and NOT
        > Blythe on piano), to the point that when I found the Klien Tindull Paramount
        > Serenaders recordings on that Frog CD, and listened to the sound samples of
        > "So's Your Old Man", I immediately recognized it and thought "THAT'S IT!". It
        > is the same recording reissued, just like the flip side of the Bluetette
        > recording is another band reissued, renamed, and with the tune title changed.
        >
        > http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:avfqxqrjldfe
        >
        > For those who love hot southside Chicago piano players, you might also get a
        > kick out of the three Clarence M. Jones sides at the end of the CD.
        > Unfortunately, they did not reissue his side "The Arm Breaker" recorded as
        > with his "Wonder Orchestra", but this one is still available from Folkways,
        > now on CD:
        >
        > http://www.folkways.si.edu/TrackDetails.aspx?itemid=4661
        >
        > There is some connection between Fred Rose (the composer of "Arm Breaker") and
        > Clarence Jones. Both Rose and Jones were Chicago based and had a hot piano
        > style, although reportedly Rose was white (can anyone confirm this?). Both
        > made rolls for Columbia/Capitol in Chicago, as did Blythe (Rose made one of
        > his most famous tune, "Deep Henderson"; while Jones did "Jazzin' Baby Blues"
        > and one or two others).
        >
        > However, Jones' most prolific roll work was with the Wurlitzer Rolla Artis
        > company in Cincinnati, and its successor the Vocalstyle Music Company; and
        > then later the Imperial company in Chicago where he made numerous fine blues
        > rolls (mostly straight-8ths) and influenced Roy Bargy and Charley Straight
        > with his playing. I believe this is before or around the same time that he
        > taught Jimmy Blythe.
        >
        > What was Tindull's history and his connections? How does he sound so much like
        > Jones, Blythe, and Clarence Johnson? These men obviously must have met Tindull
        > at one time. Tindull has an all-out super-hot rent-party atmosphere to his
        > playing (can I say "balls-to-the-wall" or are we supposed to keep this group
        > G-rated?) that sounds very good to me. I would love to know how long he lived,
        > especially if it means he left behind later [home] recordings, no matter how
        > crude. His stuff with Vance Dixon as "Dixon's Jazz Duo" positively breathes
        > fire!
        >
        > For point of reference, Clarence M. Jones died in 1949, Jimmy Blythe died in
        > 1931, and Clarence A. "Jelly" Johnson died in 1933.
        >
        > Andrew Barrett
        >
        > P.S. so Mr. Scott Alexander, would you please kindly change your page for the
        > Bluetette here:
        >
        > http://www.redhotjazz.com/bluetette.html
        >
        > To reflect the true origin of "Old Man Blues"? I am VERY familiar with both
        > Jimmy Blythe and Klien/Klein/Kline Tindull/Tindall/Tyndall and can tell you
        > for sure that this is not Blythe and is Tindull's band.
        >
        > In other news, a friend of mine just sent a tape with all of the King Mutt
        > sides and so now I'm supposed to say if the pianist is Jimmy Blythe or Frank
        > Melrose. This should be easy since their styles are like night and day.
        >
        > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com> ,
        > Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
        >> >
        >> > on 26/5/05 22:42, folke613 at folke613@... wrote:
        >> >
        >>>> > >> Thanks for your reply. However, I can't see the connection
        >>> > > between "So Is Your Old Man" listed on Frog Records and "Old Man
        >>> > > Blues." I do not have access to Klien Tindall's Paramount Serenaders,
        >>> > > but from listening to other recordings on the Archives it seems that
        >>> > > they played a less hot style, more dance-band oriented.
        >>> > > Please listen to the Old Man Blues recording and let me know what you
        >>> > > think.
        >>> > >
        >>> > > The original issue on Paramount 12377 is credited to Klein Tindull's
        >>> > > Paramount Serenaders. The pianist is certainly Klein Tindull!
        >> >
        >> > Don't really understand this.
        >> >
        >> > The whole session is on Frog DGF13 Alexander Where's That Band?
        >> >
        >> > 2600-1 Down By The Amazon (vocal by Dave Smallwood), issued Paramount 12377
        >> > 2601-1 issued as Old Man Blues on Herwin 92019
        >> > 2601-2 So Is Your Old Man, issued Paramount 12377
        >> >
        >> > The matrix numbers prove the Herwin title is an alternative take of the
        >> > Paramount, not that there is any doubt. Tha Paramount is one of the rarest
        >> > of all vintage jazz 78s and no copy was known until the 1980s if I recall
        >> > correctly, which is why earlier editions of Rust cannot correctly identify
        >> > the Herwin track. The 1969 Rust can say only that "this does not seem to be
        >> > part of the Blythe's Ragamuffins session that immediately followed it." In
        >> > Rust 5 it is double-listed in a way which makes clear the Paramount turned
        >> > up during the manuscript's preparation.
        >> >
        >> > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
        >> > howard@...
        >> > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
        >> >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
        > howard@...
        > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Andrew
        Mr. Rye and group, Thank you for the additional information on Cline Tindull! It s too bad he died so young; why did so many great pianists go like this???
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 8, 2009
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          Mr. Rye and group,

          Thank you for the additional information on Cline Tindull! It's too bad he died so young; why did so many great pianists go like this???

          "The Arm Breaker" is listed in the "Checklist of 2,002 published rags" found in the back of the Dave Jasen and Gene Jones book, "That American Rag". Here's the listing, on page 344:

          title - composer - copyright date - publisher - place of publication

          Arm Breaker - Fred Rose - April 7, 1923 - Jack Mills - New York, NY

          In the bio of Clarence M. Jones in the same book, we find this sentence on page 86:

          [Clarence Jones] "was still dabbling in ragtime as late as 1926, when he and an augmented eight-piece Wonder Orchestra made a hot recording of Fred Rose's "The Arm Breaker" for OKeh."

          I have no idea if Fred Rose made a roll of this tune, although he did make one of "Deep Henderson":

          http://www.pianola.co.nz/rollscans/midi/DeepHenderson(1926)_Supertone-5812_ComposerFredRose.mid

          This is a really hot roll!

          Here are all the rolls by Fred Rose on which I could find information, courtesy Mike Montgomery's Columbia/Capitol and Supertone rollographies:

          [listed in order of release date of roll]

          December 1924

          Capitol 1013 Down Romany Way - fox trot

          1926

          Capitol ???? I Wish You Were Jealous of Me - fox trot
          [reissued as Supertone 5723]

          Capitol 1436 Say Mister! Have You Seen Rosie's Sister? - fox trot
          [reissued as Supertone 5735]

          Capitol 1443 Only a Rose
          [reissued as Supertone 5963]

          August 1926

          Capitol 1526 Deep Henderson - fox trot
          [reissued as Supertone 5812]

          If Rose made a roll of the "Arm Breaker" it would probably have been for Columbia/Capitol's very poorly-documented 88-note instrumental series, which used a five-digit numbering system and is doubtless where things like Jimmy Blythe's "Fast Stuff Blues" and "Boogie Woogie Blues" were originally issued. To my knowledge, there is currently no listing of any rolls in this series, although making one is on my to-do list.

          Extant handplayed 88-note rolls in this series are extremely rare today, although the arranged rolls of marches etc. do turn up occasionally.

          RAGards,
          Andrew Barrett


          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
          >
          > Bob Eagle and I wrote up Cline Tindull (which was how he signed his name)
          > for Names & Numbers 46. He was born 21 October 1899, died Chicago 4 May
          > 1938, so I guess private recordings are pretty unlikely. The guys with the
          > home recording equipment were mostly interested in what was fashionable.
          >
          > As the second pianist in Sammy Stewart¹s band he must have come in contact
          > with pretty well everyone. His and Vance Dixon¹s recording bands are
          > essentially small groups from Stewart¹s band (an old tradition).
          >
          > I also believe Fred Rose was white but have never actually researched this.
          > Refresh my memory. How do we know that the Rose who composed Arm Breaker was
          > Dave Rose? Is there a roll of it by him?
          >
          >
        • Andrew
          Hi all, While reading Dave Jasen s liner notes to a Folkways LP entitled The Dancing Twenties , I came upon further reference to Fred Rose:
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 9, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi all,

            While reading Dave Jasen's liner notes to a Folkways LP entitled "The Dancing Twenties", I came upon further reference to Fred Rose:

            http://media.smithsonianfolkways.org/liner_notes/folkways/FWRBF27.pdf

            "

            MOBILE BLUES was written by Fred Rose and Albert Short in the busy year of 1924. We'll meet up again with the talented Fred Rose at the end of this side [...]

            [...]

            RED HOT MAMA, as promised, was composed by the tunesmith who captured the spirit of the twenties regularly -- Fred Rose.
            Later he abandoned Tin Pan Alley for Nashville, Tennessee, where he became a partner in a publishing house specializing in hillbilly and country and Western tunes.

            "

            Here's the record so you can listen for yourself:

            http://www.folkways.si.edu/albumdetails.aspx?itemid=100

            I don't believe Rose is on any of the sides, although there are many other featured pianists, some quite obscure.

            RAGards,
            Andrew



            --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <rag1916@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > Mr. Rye and group,
            >
            > Thank you for the additional information on Cline Tindull! It's too bad he died so young; why did so many great pianists go like this???
            >
            > "The Arm Breaker" is listed in the "Checklist of 2,002 published rags" found in the back of the Dave Jasen and Gene Jones book, "That American Rag". Here's the listing, on page 344:
            >
            > title - composer - copyright date - publisher - place of publication
            >
            > Arm Breaker - Fred Rose - April 7, 1923 - Jack Mills - New York, NY
            >
            > In the bio of Clarence M. Jones in the same book, we find this sentence on page 86:
            >
            > [Clarence Jones] "was still dabbling in ragtime as late as 1926, when he and an augmented eight-piece Wonder Orchestra made a hot recording of Fred Rose's "The Arm Breaker" for OKeh."
            >
            > I have no idea if Fred Rose made a roll of this tune, although he did make one of "Deep Henderson":
            >
            > http://www.pianola.co.nz/rollscans/midi/DeepHenderson(1926)_Supertone-5812_ComposerFredRose.mid
            >
            > This is a really hot roll!
            >
            > Here are all the rolls by Fred Rose on which I could find information, courtesy Mike Montgomery's Columbia/Capitol and Supertone rollographies:
            >
            > [listed in order of release date of roll]
            >
            > December 1924
            >
            > Capitol 1013 Down Romany Way - fox trot
            >
            > 1926
            >
            > Capitol ???? I Wish You Were Jealous of Me - fox trot
            > [reissued as Supertone 5723]
            >
            > Capitol 1436 Say Mister! Have You Seen Rosie's Sister? - fox trot
            > [reissued as Supertone 5735]
            >
            > Capitol 1443 Only a Rose
            > [reissued as Supertone 5963]
            >
            > August 1926
            >
            > Capitol 1526 Deep Henderson - fox trot
            > [reissued as Supertone 5812]
            >
            > If Rose made a roll of the "Arm Breaker" it would probably have been for Columbia/Capitol's very poorly-documented 88-note instrumental series, which used a five-digit numbering system and is doubtless where things like Jimmy Blythe's "Fast Stuff Blues" and "Boogie Woogie Blues" were originally issued. To my knowledge, there is currently no listing of any rolls in this series, although making one is on my to-do list.
            >
            > Extant handplayed 88-note rolls in this series are extremely rare today, although the arranged rolls of marches etc. do turn up occasionally.
            >
            > RAGards,
            > Andrew Barrett
            >
            >
            > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Howard Rye <howard@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Bob Eagle and I wrote up Cline Tindull (which was how he signed his name)
            > > for Names & Numbers 46. He was born 21 October 1899, died Chicago 4 May
            > > 1938, so I guess private recordings are pretty unlikely. The guys with the
            > > home recording equipment were mostly interested in what was fashionable.
            > >
            > > As the second pianist in Sammy Stewart¹s band he must have come in contact
            > > with pretty well everyone. His and Vance Dixon¹s recording bands are
            > > essentially small groups from Stewart¹s band (an old tradition).
            > >
            > > I also believe Fred Rose was white but have never actually researched this.
            > > Refresh my memory. How do we know that the Rose who composed Arm Breaker was
            > > Dave Rose? Is there a roll of it by him?
            > >
            > >
            >
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