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... and it all started about my query re: trumpet on buddy christian creole five (rambling here on a few points)

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  • yves francois
    Hello everyone    I wanted to make several points here, all starting with my query on who is considered to be the trumpet player on the Buddy Christian
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 16, 2009
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      Hello everyone
         I wanted to make several points here, all starting with my query on who is considered to be the trumpet player on the Buddy Christian Creole Five (whom I still take to be as a possible Thomas Morris or Harry Cooper -BTW it is my opinion that virtually all the trumpet solos on the later instrumental HH4 date is Cooper, the first instrumental session Cooper and RQ are splitting the honors - any comments on that? - and how much Cooper modernizes from the last HH4 session to the session w Duke a few months later - maybe hearing the first Armstrong Okeh's?)
         Even on cases where I feel there is enough aural evidence to make me feel it is a particular player - it is usually (though NOT always) ONLY a speculation. Perhaps to quote Albert McCarthy regarding a solo "whom i take to be" would be a good quote. Certainly, unless some further data comes along the fine but slightly ragged player on the Creole Five is a possible, not a definite.
         RE: trumpeter Charlie Johnson - were there any interviews in Jazz Hot - by the French - after all he did spend quite a bit of time there - and sounds excellent on the 1933 Buddy Featherstonhaugh sessions.
      There may be the answers we need there - that is, if anyone interviewed him (I can read French, if anyone has a file i would be happy to read, and my brother is a translator)
         RE: musicians hearing music. I have used this myself on an occasion or two. It MAY help re embouchure and vibrato - and perhaps to discount a particular player, but outside of that - VERY little or NO difference to a non musician who understands his subject matter. Really, I mean this, and I happen to be a musician. I'll make my point here - go to a blindfold test Leonard Feather did with Jimmy and Marion McPartland. He played them "Shake It" (an excellent General 78 by Jelly Roll Morton) with Henry "Red" Allen on muted trumpet. Jimmy (who I presume probably personally knew both Red and Rex) guessed it as Rex Stewart - and disliked the record immensely (no accounting for taste, right?). So rubbish to being a musician helps THAT much - and McPartland is surely a better trumpet player than I can ever hope to be AND probably knew both gentlemen to boot!!
         RE: DISCOGRAPHIES I think that whoever makes the next major jazz discography needs to make a distinction between a "cast iron" data (eg files)*,and the varying levels of speculation that all of us can do.
         I have learned a lot from this site BTW - for one, I now want to obtain the blues discography that Howard  Rye worked on - IMHO I think the  methodology he mentioned is the soundest I have heard from any discographer (I have two different editions of Rust's and one Walter Bruyninckx as well) . Rust is NOT infallible - after all one edition he sites the personnel from a 1939 session by Jimmie Gordon sites Charlie Shavers and Chu Berry - both very recognizable musicians - and it (on the next edition) was (correctly) rectified as Frankie Newton and Pete Brown (also 2 very reconiziale musicians) - we need to be careful, and I, for one, got into a minor dispute with someone a few years ago saying "RUST does not say Bailey is on it " - but Buster Bailey (whom I think I is very easy to be reconsigned) is certainly on it. Needless to say, he did a lot of ground breaking work over the years - it is a very long and to some degree thankless job!!!
         I hope I did not (or have not at any point in time) ever offend anyone, or irritate anyone here (I am still learning, and consider myself more of an enthusiast then a scholar - this is particularly in regards to methodology). I am fascinated with this music, and spend literally all my available time listening, combing through books about jazz, pictures of old jazz musicians, watching old films becasue of the jazz music I love so. I just found out the Chicago Public Library has most of the STORYVILLE issues - I guess most of the next half year or so you know where I will be on my days off!!!
          many thanks and I love being part of these discussions - weather I agree or not about anything written in the books - regrading Big Charlie (I have to listen to Bill Brown's 1927 band soon- I love those records), Jabbo Smith, Thomas Morris, Arville Harris or Arnett Nelson ...
      all the best

      one more query - where did Jabbo get credit for "Ham Gravy" and "Georgia Grind" anyways - not that Jabbo had the best memory, but for what it's worth when I spoken to him about it (in 1981), he told me his first recording session was with Charlie Johnson ...

      Yves Francois Smierciak

      * I can site one modern example where a musician is on file on being on a session - i know he was not there, since i was with him that night 35 miles west of where he was to be - musicians DO send subs too. The musician is my long term friend Franz Jackson and he is NOT on the Earl Hines revival band that was at the Chicago jazz festival (Aug 30 1980), just letting you know that even radio announcers can be wrong.
    • jtdyamond
      One quick comment re the story below, Yves François: Had Allen being playing unmuted, McPartland might well have identified him correctly. For many
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 16, 2009
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        One quick comment re the story below, Yves François:

        Had Allen being playing unmuted, McPartland might well have identified
        him correctly. For many trumpeters, particularly those whose style is
        based upon employment of the full dynamic range as was Allen's, the use
        of a mute has an extremely inhibiting effect, ironing out many of the
        personal quirks which form much of the basis for aural identification.
        As a trumpeter (which you are, are you not?) try recording yourself
        playing variations on a favourite tune first with muted horn, then with
        open horn. I believe you'll hear the difference.

        J.T.


        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, yves francois <aprestitine@...>
        wrote:
        >

        > RE: musicians hearing music. I have used this myself on an occasion
        or two. It MAY help re embouchure and vibrato - and perhaps to discount
        a particular player, but outside of that - VERY little or NO difference
        to a non musician who understands his subject matter. Really, I mean
        this, and I happen to be a musician. I'll make my point here - go to a
        blindfold test Leonard Feather did with Jimmy and Marion McPartland. He
        played them "Shake It" (an excellent General 78 by Jelly Roll Morton)
        with Henry "Red" Allen on muted trumpet. Jimmy (who I presume probably
        personally knew both Red and Rex) guessed it as Rex Stewart - and
        disliked the record immensely (no accounting for taste, right?). So
        rubbish to being a musician helps THAT much - and McPartland is surely a
        better trumpet player than I can ever hope to be AND probably knew both
        gentlemen to boot!!

        > Yves Francois Smierciak
        >

        >
      • yves francois
        JT    I know that Allen did not record too much with a mute - save perhaps for the years with Henderson the MBRB. Still I think it s an example that all of
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 16, 2009
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          JT
             I know that Allen did not record too much with a mute - save perhaps for the years with Henderson the MBRB. Still I think it's an example that all of us are mortals - even a player as great as McPartland. It keeps me humble - and trying not to use the "I'm a musician" bit when I hear something!! Many of the best people to identify a musician never played an instrument in their life - I relate to it (being a musician) because of embouchure, vibrato etc that I relate to as a trumpet player (and also to a slightly lesser degree other horn players)
            As always a pleasure to read yours and everyone e mails
          Yves

          --- On Fri, 10/16/09, jtdyamond <fearfeasa@...> wrote:

          From: jtdyamond <fearfeasa@...>
          Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: ... and it all started about my query re: trumpet on buddy christian creole five (rambling here on a few points)
          To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 11:54 AM

          One quick comment re the story below, Yves François:

          Had Allen being playing unmuted, McPartland might well have identified
          him correctly. For many trumpeters, particularly those whose style is
          based upon employment of the full dynamic range as was Allen's, the use
          of a mute has an extremely inhibiting effect, ironing out many of the
          personal quirks which form much of the basis for aural identification.
          As a trumpeter (which you are, are you not?) try recording yourself
          playing variations on a favourite tune first with muted horn, then with
          open horn. I believe you'll hear the difference.

          J.T.
        • spacelights
          A letter from Richard Rains gives the exchange as: Richard: With whom did you first record? Jabbo: That was with Tommy Morris. Richard is resolved that
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 16, 2009
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            A letter from Richard Rains gives the exchange as:

            Richard: "With whom did you first record?"
            Jabbo: "That was with Tommy Morris."

            Richard is resolved that it's the "Ham Gravy" and "Georgia Grind" session. I'm inclined to agree, but it's not clear how much this was inferred.

            It's of much interest that Jabbo told you his first session was with Johnson. He apparently told Rains that Morris was not on that date--now a seeming contradiction--yet I don't know the statement's context. My guess is that Jabbo recalled and meant that Morris was not part (ie a regular member, as Jabbo was for years) of the Johnson group. Morris seems clearly present on that session.

            Of course, we should take into account that these statements were made 50 years and more after the fact... also that Jabbo was still a teenager, developing as a performer, when he made his early New York sides with Charlie Johnson, Ellington, the Louisiana Sugar Babes and others.

            --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, yves francois <aprestitine@...> wrote:
            >
            > one more query - where did Jabbo get credit for "Ham Gravy" and "Georgia Grind" anyways - not that Jabbo had the best memory, but for what it's worth when I spoken to him about it (in 1981), he told me his first recording session was with Charlie Johnson ...
          • yves francois
                 To be honest works for me (saw it on the cd notes last night FROG #1) I thought that Jabbo was in the Morris session, until the Davies CD came out - I
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 17, 2009
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                   To be honest works for me (saw it on the cd notes last night FROG #1) I thought that Jabbo was in the Morris session, until the Davies' CD came out - I was still not convinced that the trumpet on the second Morris session is Big Charlie (there are tonal similarities to big Charlie, but also to Jabbo). But then  I started thinking I was having a "wishful thinking" re the Morris session that it was Jabbo and wanted proof. Also know that by the time I was speaking to Jabbo (1981) that his memory was failing him - remember he had a stoke soon after, and a lot of what he said COULD be open to question. I hope we can assume that the letter is rock solid evidence  and the aural is good as well - an unbeliviable start too, considering he is 17. Any other detials - again I think that Jabbo speaking with me in a late night in 1981 is different than a thought out letter to a discographer IMHO.

                 I also have to note I like Thomas Morris' work on these sessions - great mute player, and , yes, I also believe he is on the first Victor session w Jabbo in the Feb 1927 Charlie Johnson session -
              Yves

              --- On Fri, 10/16/09, spacelights <spacelights@...> wrote:

              From: spacelights <spacelights@...>
              Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: ... and it all started about my query re: trumpet on buddy christian creole five (rambling here on a few points)
              To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                               

              A letter from Richard Rains gives the exchange as:

              Richard: "With whom did you first record?"

              Jabbo: "That was with Tommy Morris."



              Richard is resolved that it's the "Ham Gravy" and "Georgia Grind" session.  I'm inclined to agree, but it's not clear how much this was inferred.



              It's of much interest that Jabbo told you his first session was with Johnson.  He apparently told Rains that Morris was not on that date--now a seeming contradiction- -yet I don't know the statement's context.  My guess is that Jabbo recalled and meant that Morris was not part (ie a regular member, as Jabbo was for years) of the Johnson group.  Morris seems clearly present on that session.



              Of course, we should take into account that these statements were made 50 years and more after the fact... also that Jabbo was still a teenager, developing as a performer, when he made his early New York sides with Charlie Johnson, Ellington, the Louisiana Sugar Babes and others.
            • David Brown
              John & Yves Again we hit the problem of the reliability of interview evidence with Jabbo apparently contradicting himself -- no criticism of Jabbo. One
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 19, 2009
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                John & Yves

                Again we hit the problem of the reliability of interview 'evidence' with
                Jabbo apparently contradicting himself -- no criticism of Jabbo.

                One might think, however, that he would remember his first session. Thanks
                John for providing the context. The fact that he volunteered this
                information and was not replying to a leading question makes it more
                valuable. But neither did Yves lead when asking about his first session.

                I think therefore we need to go back and relisten, reprogrammed, for there
                is always the tendency to hear what we are listening for. I have been
                listening for Jabbo but will now try to hear Charlie.

                Dave





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Howard Rye
                I am not suggesting that ANYONE involved with this particular debate is anything but an entirely honest interviewer who knows how to avoid asking questions
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 19, 2009
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                  I am not suggesting that ANYONE involved with this particular debate is
                  anything but an entirely honest interviewer who knows how to avoid asking
                  questions which include the answer, and so forth, but anyone who works with
                  this material for long soon realizes that some contributors to these debates
                  are not and/or do not.

                  Musicians actually do not remember every detail of their lives, nor do they
                  remember everyone they ever met, nor do they remember every musician they
                  ever sat next to on a pick-up record date. They are just like other mortals
                  in this respect. (This is sometimes forgotten.)

                  On the other hand they do like to please the paying customer, and especially
                  the paying customer who is buying them drinks. They are just like other
                  mortals in this respect too.

                  If therefore they are asked a question to which they do not know the answer,
                  they are sometimes quite pleased if the interviewer then tells them the
                  answer on the basis of whatever theory he has formed. When they next come to
                  Europe (these gentry are usually Europeans) the man with a theory he wants
                  proved then sends in one of his friends to ask in all sincerity the answer
                  to the question, without mentioning that he has previously told the musician
                  the required answer. Surprise, surprise, the musician now knows the answer
                  because he was told it only six months ago.

                  Whenever you come across a case of a musician who suddenly starts
                  remembering something that he has previously told interviewers he doesn¹t
                  remember, you know you have struck the activities of one of these
                  obsessives. Believe me there have been people out there whose entire being
                  has depended upon it being generally accepted that whatever theory they have
                  dreamed up is what really happened 50 years before. They are mostly dying
                  off of course, along with their informants. I wonder whether rock
                  discographers (who are an uncommunicative lot in my experience) have similar
                  problems with new generations of obsessive fans.

                  And never underestimate pester power. If a musician is pestered enough to
                  settle some disputed point, he will eventually settle it, probably with any
                  old thing that comes into his head. You can only say ³I really don¹t
                  remember² so many times. All these things are well known to oral historians.
                  Unfortunately most early jazz enthusiasts had never read even the most basic
                  local-history society guide to interviewing the old folks. Maybe they didn¹t
                  exist back in the day.


                  on 19/10/2009 09:37, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > John & Yves
                  >
                  > Again we hit the problem of the reliability of interview 'evidence' with
                  > Jabbo apparently contradicting himself -- no criticism of Jabbo.
                  >
                  > One might think, however, that he would remember his first session. Thanks
                  > John for providing the context. The fact that he volunteered this
                  > information and was not replying to a leading question makes it more
                  > valuable. But neither did Yves lead when asking about his first session.
                  >
                  > I think therefore we need to go back and relisten, reprogrammed, for there
                  > is always the tendency to hear what we are listening for. I have been
                  > listening for Jabbo but will now try to hear Charlie.
                  >
                  > Dave
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                  > howard@...
                  > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Nick Dellow
                  The importance of Howard s remarks cannot be stressed highly enough. Once one adds the printed page into the formula, a supposition – especially one added to
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 19, 2009
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                    The importance of Howard's remarks cannot be stressed highly enough. Once
                    one adds the printed page into the formula, a supposition � especially one
                    added to the text without the addition of a question mark � easily corrodes
                    into a "fact", which is then circulated as such ad infinitum. Jazz
                    literature, and discographies in particular, are dotted (perhaps one should
                    say pock marked) with the results of this conjectural approach. Amongst
                    several notable examples is the famed Benny Peyton's Jazz Kings recording
                    session of "February 1920" or "around Spring 1920" or "c.Jan/Feb 1921"
                    (depending on which discography one consults), in which it is suggested, or
                    even stated as fact, that the band (including Bechet) recorded a session at
                    Columbia's studios in London, producing a series of titles including "High
                    Society" and "Tiger Rag", all of which were apparently rejected.

                    Since the files for Columbia at this date were destroyed before the Second
                    World War, the only evidence we have for this legendary ledger-less session
                    comes from Sidney Bechet, who in 1939 simply stated to Leonard Feather that
                    he recorded whilst in London with the Jazz Kings; no titles were mentioned.
                    From the moment Bechet set foot in Europe to take part in the International
                    Jazz Festival in Paris in 1949 he was hounded, paparazzi-like, by
                    discographers and researchers keen to acquire any information he could
                    provide concerning the recordings he made in the 1920s. Inevitably, the
                    Columbia session came up. Initially, he told Max Jones and Sinclair Traill
                    that he didn't know the names of the titles, but after constant pestering
                    from other researchers Bechet eventually took the easy way out and gave his
                    interrogators the information they wanted to hear � suggesting that two of
                    the titles were "Tiger Rag" and "High Society". Or as John Chilton put it
                    "...it is just as likely that Bechet cited two jazz standards just to get
                    people off his back."

                    It is of course quite possible that Bechet recorded in London, even though
                    nothing except a few flashes of fool's gold has been found. It should be
                    borne in mind that, according to several sources, the repertoire of the Jazz
                    Kings primarily encompassed pop ephemera of the day, such as "Bright Eyes"
                    and "Beautiful Faces Need Beautiful Clothes". Apart from the remarks by
                    Bechet, made under pressure, there is no hard evidence that the band played
                    or recorded "Tiger Rag" or "High Society", yet both titles are still listed
                    in several discographies without a question mark in sight. Of course, this
                    is only one of many similar examples.

                    Nick


                    2009/10/19 Howard Rye <howard@...>

                    >
                    >
                    > I am not suggesting that ANYONE involved with this particular debate is
                    > anything but an entirely honest interviewer who knows how to avoid asking
                    > questions which include the answer, and so forth, but anyone who works with
                    > this material for long soon realizes that some contributors to these
                    > debates
                    > are not and/or do not.
                    >
                    > Musicians actually do not remember every detail of their lives, nor do they
                    > remember everyone they ever met, nor do they remember every musician they
                    > ever sat next to on a pick-up record date. They are just like other mortals
                    > in this respect. (This is sometimes forgotten.)
                    >
                    > On the other hand they do like to please the paying customer, and
                    > especially
                    > the paying customer who is buying them drinks. They are just like other
                    > mortals in this respect too.
                    >
                    > If therefore they are asked a question to which they do not know the
                    > answer,
                    > they are sometimes quite pleased if the interviewer then tells them the
                    > answer on the basis of whatever theory he has formed. When they next come
                    > to
                    > Europe (these gentry are usually Europeans) the man with a theory he wants
                    > proved then sends in one of his friends to ask in all sincerity the answer
                    > to the question, without mentioning that he has previously told the
                    > musician
                    > the required answer. Surprise, surprise, the musician now knows the answer
                    > because he was told it only six months ago.
                    >
                    > Whenever you come across a case of a musician who suddenly starts
                    > remembering something that he has previously told interviewers he doesn�t
                    > remember, you know you have struck the activities of one of these
                    > obsessives. Believe me there have been people out there whose entire being
                    > has depended upon it being generally accepted that whatever theory they
                    > have
                    > dreamed up is what really happened 50 years before. They are mostly dying
                    > off of course, along with their informants. I wonder whether rock
                    > discographers (who are an uncommunicative lot in my experience) have
                    > similar
                    > problems with new generations of obsessive fans.
                    >
                    > And never underestimate pester power. If a musician is pestered enough to
                    > settle some disputed point, he will eventually settle it, probably with any
                    > old thing that comes into his head. You can only say �I really don�t
                    > remember� so many times. All these things are well known to oral
                    > historians.
                    > Unfortunately most early jazz enthusiasts had never read even the most
                    > basic
                    > local-history society guide to interviewing the old folks. Maybe they
                    > didn�t
                    > exist back in the day.
                    >
                    > on 19/10/2009 09:37, David Brown at johnhaleysims@...<johnhaleysims%40yahoo.co.uk>wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > John & Yves
                    > >
                    > > Again we hit the problem of the reliability of interview 'evidence' with
                    > > Jabbo apparently contradicting himself -- no criticism of Jabbo.
                    > >
                    > > One might think, however, that he would remember his first session.
                    > Thanks
                    > > John for providing the context. The fact that he volunteered this
                    > > information and was not replying to a leading question makes it more
                    > > valuable. But neither did Yves lead when asking about his first session.
                    > >
                    > > I think therefore we need to go back and relisten, reprogrammed, for
                    > there
                    > > is always the tendency to hear what we are listening for. I have been
                    > > listening for Jabbo but will now try to hear Charlie.
                    > >
                    > > Dave
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                    > > howard@... <howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk>
                    > > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Mordechai Litzman
                    I really enjoyed your mini essay on the vagaries of interviewing people and learned many lessons from it - thanks, ________________________________ From:
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 19, 2009
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                      I really enjoyed your mini essay on the vagaries of interviewing people and learned many lessons from it - thanks,




                      ________________________________
                      From: Howard Rye <howard@...>
                      To: red hot jazz <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Mon, October 19, 2009 5:26:16 AM
                      Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: ... and it all started about my query re: trumpet on buddy christian creole five (rambling here on a few points)


                      I am not suggesting that ANYONE involved with this particular debate is
                      anything but an entirely honest interviewer who knows how to avoid asking
                      questions which include the answer, and so forth, but anyone who works with
                      this material for long soon realizes that some contributors to these debates
                      are not and/or do not.

                      Musicians actually do not remember every detail of their lives, nor do they
                      remember everyone they ever met, nor do they remember every musician they
                      ever sat next to on a pick-up record date. They are just like other mortals
                      in this respect. (This is sometimes forgotten.)

                      On the other hand they do like to please the paying customer, and especially
                      the paying customer who is buying them drinks. They are just like other
                      mortals in this respect too.

                      If therefore they are asked a question to which they do not know the answer,
                      they are sometimes quite pleased if the interviewer then tells them the
                      answer on the basis of whatever theory he has formed. When they next come to
                      Europe (these gentry are usually Europeans) the man with a theory he wants
                      proved then sends in one of his friends to ask in all sincerity the answer
                      to the question, without mentioning that he has previously told the musician
                      the required answer. Surprise, surprise, the musician now knows the answer
                      because he was told it only six months ago.

                      Whenever you come across a case of a musician who suddenly starts
                      remembering something that he has previously told interviewers he doesn¹t
                      remember, you know you have struck the activities of one of these
                      obsessives. Believe me there have been people out there whose entire being
                      has depended upon it being generally accepted that whatever theory they have
                      dreamed up is what really happened 50 years before. They are mostly dying
                      off of course, along with their informants. I wonder whether rock
                      discographers (who are an uncommunicative lot in my experience) have similar
                      problems with new generations of obsessive fans.

                      And never underestimate pester power. If a musician is pestered enough to
                      settle some disputed point, he will eventually settle it, probably with any
                      old thing that comes into his head. You can only say ³I really don¹t
                      remember² so many times. All these things are well known to oral historians.
                      Unfortunately most early jazz enthusiasts had never read even the most basic
                      local-history society guide to interviewing the old folks. Maybe they didn¹t
                      exist back in the day.

                      on 19/10/2009 09:37, David Brown at johnhaleysims@ yahoo.co. uk wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > John & Yves
                      >
                      > Again we hit the problem of the reliability of interview 'evidence' with
                      > Jabbo apparently contradicting himself -- no criticism of Jabbo.
                      >
                      > One might think, however, that he would remember his first session. Thanks
                      > John for providing the context. The fact that he volunteered this
                      > information and was not replying to a leading question makes it more
                      > valuable. But neither did Yves lead when asking about his first session.
                      >
                      > I think therefore we need to go back and relisten, reprogrammed, for there
                      > is always the tendency to hear what we are listening for. I have been
                      > listening for Jabbo but will now try to hear Charlie.
                      >
                      > Dave
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                      > howard@coppermill. demon.co. uk
                      > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • tommersl
                      ... It makes complexions but it is not so much a big problem. For instance, Willie The Lion Smith on Blues. One interview he claimed that Blues started in
                      Message 10 of 11 , Oct 22, 2009
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                        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > If therefore they are asked a question to which they do not know the answer,
                        > they are sometimes quite pleased if the interviewer then tells them the
                        > answer on the basis of whatever theory he has formed. When they next come to
                        > Europe (these gentry are usually Europeans) the man with a theory he wants
                        > proved then sends in one of his friends to ask in all sincerity the answer
                        > to the question, without mentioning that he has previously told the musician
                        > the required answer. Surprise, surprise, the musician now knows the answer
                        > because he was told it only six months ago.
                        >

                        It makes complexions but it is not so much a big problem. For instance, Willie "The Lion" Smith on Blues. One interview he claimed that Blues started in New York. Some people might consider weight to this.

                        However, it is just a way that someone organized what he was told. According to the same interview, Smith said that he saw some workers singing it and now it is easier, young boy hearing for the first time in his life the Blues, and he think that it was just invented here and now!

                        It just proves that when Smith was young, Blues wasn't a popular folklore in New York.

                        Reading interviews and essays right is the problem of 2nd and on generation researchers (those that have important part from their body of works based and relied on previous researchers' work). It is also a problem of any other people who don't know what really happened behind the scenes of some interview, how much alcohol was involved, and what interests to prove something were part of the deal.

                        There are interviews that have examples and well explained like that of Jelly Roll Morton LoC and even on those, people need to realize that there are possibilities that someone wanted to prove something. But if one drops the conclusions and focus on the orientation of the content, he theoretically has better chances to avoid blundering by it.

                        Tommer
                      • David Brown
                        Yves and anybody I have listened through the Big Charlie Thomas CD (Timeless) again in light of recent information. My conclusion is that Big Charlie is
                        Message 11 of 11 , Nov 2, 2009
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                          Yves and anybody

                          I have listened through the Big Charlie Thomas CD (Timeless) again in light
                          of recent information. My conclusion is that 'Big Charlie' is probably on
                          all sides except the Morris Seven Hot Babies which still sound like Jabbo,
                          the playing 'hotter', technically more assured but artistically less
                          original and creative. The OKeh Melody Stars and the Sims/Williams offer no
                          evidence of Charlie's unique traits but maybe this is because there is too
                          little exposed cornet for evidential purposes. There is certainly nothing
                          anomalous on these sides to prevent it being Charlie.

                          The astounding thing about Charlie's style is the heavy Louis influence in
                          NYC, or indeed anywhere, as early as November 1925. The question is how this
                          was absorbed. It must have been through personal contact during Louis' stay
                          with Henderson and/or from records. One wonders at what circumstances would
                          have allowed Charlie to have sufficient personal exposure to Louis. Playing
                          in the same band is an obvious solution but there seems no candidate. If
                          from record it could initially only have been the Hendersons and the blues
                          accompaniments. It is possible, so programmed, to hear the later sides as
                          showing that Charlie has a new model to emulate as the Hot5s hit the
                          streets.

                          Dave


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