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RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: BUDDY CHRISTIAN CREOLE FIVE

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  • David Brown
    Many thanks Howard I never cease to be amazed at what you can find. His sad early demise placed him beyond reach of the early discographers /collectors and may
    Message 1 of 27 , Oct 15, 2009
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      Many thanks Howard

      I never cease to be amazed at what you can find. His sad early demise placed
      him beyond reach of the early discographers /collectors and may add a pinch
      more circumstantial evidence to his case as the unattributed 'Big Charlie'.

      Many thanks John

      Reading the JRT notes to the 'Big Charlie', I infer some self-subversion,
      particularly in the excerpt I quoted recently. But I do believe that JRT
      felt the work to be by one man. He, as a practising brass player, offers
      technical analysis of Charlie's style and I believe that what he is
      subverting is the name he has 'invented'. Howard's information would put
      Johnson's birth as almost definitely 1897. But the fact that he was
      described as being older has always grated on me because his style, heavily
      Louis influenced, suggests, rather, a young Turk. The linkage of the man
      described by Eva with that hailed by Carter as 'Big Charlie' is anyway, to
      me, very tenuous. It assumes that Eva had the ears and memory to recognise
      one cornettist on one session among so many that she made.

      My use of 'chops' was not qualitative. I am not saying that Charlie was
      better than Tom, just different. I agree with you, I observed recently the
      apparent variance in Tom's style but I would put this down to material as
      well as context.

      BUT. AS EVER. We run into the problem of provenance of the personnels we are
      working from. Rust mostly I mean. I have learned to work initially only from
      cast iron examples. Only this week I falsely designated work to Gus Aiken
      through relying on Rust. I do not have the Elvira, nor have I found it
      available online, but my Rust has unk. cornet. There is cast iron Gaines on
      the 1929 Waller Buddies. This is later than 'Big Charlie' and shows him to
      be an E.Coast stylist with about no Louis influence. I would therefore be
      surprised to hear that Gaines was playing in Louis style three years earlier
      on the Elvira and would thus doubt the attribution. I observe that the sides
      are smack in the middle of Big Charlie's time span although I assume that
      JRT must have heard and discounted.

      I think to hear the case for a 'Big Charlie' one has to hear the complete
      album, or the sides on the album, in sequence. Context is extremely
      important for comparative listening. I hear the same man -- mostly --
      although realistically there is so little cornet on some sides and/or so
      badly recorded that it is impossible to tell. But we are still left with the
      sides which sound like, and were claimed by, Jabbo. This must seriously
      undermine the case for Big Charlie but the playing is similar enough for it
      to be put down as mistake rather than piss-take.

      Dave






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    • Howard Rye
      This provoked me into digitizing my very old file on Leon Abbey¹s British stays (that old) and I can add one more detail about Charlie Johnson. Abbey was a
      Message 2 of 27 , Oct 15, 2009
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        This provoked me into digitizing my very old file on Leon Abbey¹s British
        stays (that old) and I can add one more detail about Charlie Johnson.

        Abbey was a notorious poacher of other people¹s bands and the band he
        poached for his British trip was Bill Brown¹s Brownies, so we can be sure
        that it is the same Charles Johnson on their 17 March 1927 Vocalion, but the
        file card (which is reproduced in VJM 119) gives no personnel information.

        The Abbey band¹s main British gig was at the Olympia Dance Hall, which had
        three bandstands. The others were occupied by Herman Darewski¹s band and
        Gwen Rogers¹ Musical Dolls. I still have no idea who the Musical Dolls were,
        not that I¹ve tried very hard to find out, but they didn¹t take part in any
        of the broadcasts made by the other two bands.

        on 15/10/2009 10:04, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Many thanks Howard
        >
        > I never cease to be amazed at what you can find. His sad early demise placed
        > him beyond reach of the early discographers /collectors and may add a pinch
        > more circumstantial evidence to his case as the unattributed 'Big Charlie'.
        >


        Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
        howard@...
        Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




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      • David Brown
        Thanks again Howard Rust has a full personnel for the Brownies March 1927 -- no probs, poss.s or ?s. Jazz Directory has total unks. So I wonder where it came
        Message 3 of 27 , Oct 15, 2009
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          Thanks again Howard

          Rust has a full personnel for the Brownies March 1927 -- no probs, poss.s or
          ?s. Jazz Directory has total unks. So I wonder where it came from ? By
          backdating what Abbey arrived with ?

          Not only Johnson but also, at least, Ralph James and Oliver Tines from the
          Brownies, and I guess thus also Leon Abbey, stayed in Europe. Tines is with
          Louis in both UK 1933 and Paris 1934 and James with Wooding in 1931. Life
          must surely have been sweeter this side of the Atlantic, or in Paris at
          least.

          Fascinating collateral information there. Research proves the Gwen Roger's
          Musical Dolls to have been a female quartet featuring the Japanese one
          string phonofiddle who recorded in 1926. The link below will also introduce
          the 'last great virtuoso of the bladder-and-string'. Burnt cork virtuoso.

          <http://www.jonroseweb.com/f_projects_phonofiddle.html>

          Dave








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        • Howard Rye
          Source is the New York Age of 28 January 1928 in a belated news item about Abbey taking the band (which astoundingly does tie up with the passenger list). ...
          Message 4 of 27 , Oct 15, 2009
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            Source is the New York Age of 28 January 1928 in a belated news item about
            Abbey taking the band (which astoundingly does tie up with the passenger
            list).


            on 15/10/2009 16:07, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Thanks again Howard
            >
            > Rust has a full personnel for the Brownies March 1927 -- no probs, poss.s or
            > ?s. Jazz Directory has total unks. So I wonder where it came from ? By
            > backdating what Abbey arrived with ?
            >
            >


            Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
            howard@...
            Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




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          • David Brown
            Hello Yves I ll answer you on this thread. I m sure you never offend anybody and offer only stimulating topics for debate. It s in my head that Jabbo is
            Message 5 of 27 , Oct 16, 2009
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              Hello Yves

              I'll answer you on this thread. I 'm sure you never offend anybody and offer
              only stimulating topics for debate.

              It's in my head that Jabbo is almost cast iron on the 'Ham Gravy' session
              but I forget the source. Howard will know.

              It certainly is more bravura playing and more technically without flaw,
              although not flawless, than the other sides.

              On Harry Cooper, I find not only the Fouad and Rostaing but three sessions
              in Paris under his own name 1943 and 1947. Do you have these and/or know
              where they were ever available ?

              Dave




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            • Howard Rye
              The 1943 sessions are split across Jazz Time 799877-2: Americans In Paris Vol. 5 1939-1949; Jazz Time 789327-2: Americans In Paris Vol. 6 1942-1950, Jazz Time
              Message 6 of 27 , Oct 16, 2009
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                The 1943 sessions are split across Jazz Time 799877-2: Americans In Paris
                Vol. 5 1939-1949; Jazz Time 789327-2: Americans In Paris Vol. 6 1942-1950,
                Jazz Time 781336-2: Antillles Jazz 1930-1954. (These were probably marketed
                by EMI for about three weeks but the series does turn up from French on-line
                dealers.

                The 1947 titles were on Barclay 81.004/5: Le Jazz Parisien...liberé. Anyone
                know a CD?

                While we¹re here, I have a main title index to pre-war Jazz Hots and a
                detailed index to Jazz-Tango Swing. If Charlie Johnson was interviewed by
                contemporary French enthusiasts, I don¹t where the results were published.
                Any ideas, Yves? These guys mostly played in upper-class watering holes to
                which the young cognoscenti couldn¹t go and this probably accounts for the
                very scant attention they devoted to them. Johnson is mentioned once in
                Panassié¹s Douze Années de Jazz.

                on 16/10/2009 10:13, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                >
                > On Harry Cooper, I find not only the Fouad and Rostaing but three sessions
                > in Paris under his own name 1943 and 1947. Do you have these and/or know
                > where they were ever available ?
                >
                > Dave
                >
                >


                Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                howard@...
                Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




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              • Patrice Champarou
                ... From: David Brown To: Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 11:13 AM Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re:
                Message 7 of 27 , Oct 16, 2009
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...>
                  To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 11:13 AM
                  Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: BUDDY CHRISTIAN CREOLE FIVE


                  > On Harry Cooper, I find not only the Fouad and Rostaing but three sessions
                  > in Paris under his own name 1943 and 1947. Do you have these and/or know
                  > where they were ever available ?

                  I've just read Howard's reply, but just in case some would match... 7
                  tracks, apparently issued under Harry Cooper's name, are available on Swing
                  Caraibe : Paris 1929-1946 by Frémeaux et associés, FA 069
                  http://tinyurl.com/yh8xgux (Inspiration, Nuages, La Cigale, Allegro, Nos
                  impressions, Caprice en Ut, Lune Rosse - tracks listing also on
                  Amazon.co.uk).

                  Patrice
                • David Brown
                  To answer myself on Ham Gravy and save Howard s energy. It never Rains but it --. Richard Rains, again, is the source in the notes of the Frog Tom Morris. He
                  Message 8 of 27 , Oct 16, 2009
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                    To answer myself on 'Ham Gravy' and save Howard's energy.

                    It never Rains but it --. Richard Rains, again, is the source in the notes
                    of the Frog Tom Morris. He claims to have confirmed this personally with
                    Jabbo.

                    It would certainly be nice if he joined us.

                    Dave





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                  • Howard Rye
                    Yes, indeed. These are the 1943 sides. Can¹t recommend this double CD too strongly. Simply didn¹t think of it in this context. ... [Non-text portions of this
                    Message 9 of 27 , Oct 16, 2009
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                      Yes, indeed. These are the 1943 sides. Can¹t recommend this double CD too
                      strongly. Simply didn¹t think of it in this context.


                      on 16/10/2009 11:38, Patrice Champarou at patrice.champarou@... wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...
                      > <mailto:johnhaleysims%40yahoo.co.uk> >
                      > To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com> >
                      > Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 11:13 AM
                      > Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: BUDDY CHRISTIAN CREOLE FIVE
                      >
                      >> > On Harry Cooper, I find not only the Fouad and Rostaing but three sessions
                      >> > in Paris under his own name 1943 and 1947. Do you have these and/or know
                      >> > where they were ever available ?
                      >
                      > I've just read Howard's reply, but just in case some would match... 7
                      > tracks, apparently issued under Harry Cooper's name, are available on Swing
                      > Caraibe : Paris 1929-1946 by Frémeaux et associés, FA 069
                      > http://tinyurl.com/yh8xgux (Inspiration, Nuages, La Cigale, Allegro, Nos
                      > impressions, Caprice en Ut, Lune Rosse - tracks listing also on
                      > Amazon.co.uk).
                      >
                      > Patrice
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                      > howard@...
                      > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • yves francois
                          RE: HARRY COOPER The Mengo Blue Stars have not been reissued on CD - also a Mengo Swing that has not been reissued is on youtube right now. I also have
                      Message 10 of 27 , Oct 16, 2009
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                            RE: HARRY COOPER The Mengo Blue Stars have not been reissued on CD - also a Mengo Swing that has not been reissued is on youtube right now. I also have the 78 - if you are curious e mail me personally I will send MP3 of the two sides in rather better sound than the youtube site - it is some of the best Cooper on record - SWING #187 BLUES DU MATIN PA 1 & 2.    Let me know if anyone needs them for their collection - they happen to be amongst my favorite records in the 40's (and I also highly recommend the 2 CD set "SWING CARIBE" - all 8 Cooper Swing's are on them, plus 2 others with him and Big Boy Goudie from 1946 or so)
                        Yves Francois Smierciak


                        --- On Fri, 10/16/09, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:

                        From: Howard Rye <howard@...>
                        Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: BUDDY CHRISTIAN CREOLE FIVE
                        To: "red hot jazz" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                        Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 6:43 AM













                         





                        Yes, indeed. These are the 1943 sides. Can¹t recommend this double CD too

                        strongly. Simply didn¹t think of it in this context.



                        on 16/10/2009 11:38, Patrice Champarou at patrice.champarou@ free.fr wrote:



                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        > ----- Original Message -----

                        > From: "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@ yahoo.co. uk

                        > <mailto:johnhaleysi ms%40yahoo. co.uk> >

                        > To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogro ups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz% 40yahoogroups. com> >

                        > Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 11:13 AM

                        > Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: BUDDY CHRISTIAN CREOLE FIVE

                        >

                        >> > On Harry Cooper, I find not only the Fouad and Rostaing but three sessions

                        >> > in Paris under his own name 1943 and 1947. Do you have these and/or know

                        >> > where they were ever available ?

                        >

                        > I've just read Howard's reply, but just in case some would match... 7

                        > tracks, apparently issued under Harry Cooper's name, are available on Swing

                        > Caraibe : Paris 1929-1946 by Frémeaux et associés, FA 069

                        > http://tinyurl. com/yh8xgux (Inspiration, Nuages, La Cigale, Allegro, Nos

                        > impressions, Caprice en Ut, Lune Rosse - tracks listing also on

                        > Amazon.co.uk) .

                        >

                        > Patrice

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >>

                        >

                        >

                        > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB

                        > howard@coppermill. demon.co. uk

                        > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098

                        >



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