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Re: BUDDY CHRISTIAN CREOLE FIVE

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  • spacelights
    Hi Dave, The Big Charlie Thomas agenda seems something of a red herring... the name itself speculative, a conflation of disparate elements. Attributions of
    Message 1 of 27 , Oct 14, 2009
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      Hi Dave,

      The "Big Charlie Thomas" agenda seems something of a red herring... the name itself speculative, a conflation of disparate elements. Attributions of Charlie Gaines and Thomas Morris on the Jazz Rippers (in Rust 3 and 4, respectively) imbue identifications of "Charlie Thomas" with a kind of winking caprice... In any case, the "Thomas" recalled by Eva as "a much older man than the rest of us" would seem to discount Gaines, Morris, and new candidate Johnson: from all evidence, younger than Eva and Clarence. I don't have the Timeless CD, would like to read the notes and listen in sequence (have heard most of the sides on other releases).

      I don't necessarily agree that the Rippers cornetist has "far more chops" than Morris: the former seems rather more brash and round-toned, yet his results I find even more erratic than typical Morris (who displays creditable chops in various bags on the Williams Stompers, Wallers, Dixie Jazzers Washboard Bands and elsewhere). Morris is strangely workmanlike under his own leadership in 1926 (OKeh was reportedly more accomodating than Victor) and seems to cut loose and experiment more with others. I agree the Rippers man sounds more Armstrong-influenced--not unlike Gaines at that time--though it's perhaps worth noting that the N.O. Blue Five date includes "King of the Zulus".

      Best wishes,

      John

      ps Have you heard the Elvira Johnson...?


      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
      >
      > I have the N.O. Blue 5 'South Rampart' in my ears now and super work from
      > wonderful Tom Morris. But, respect him and you though I do, he is not on the
      > Rippers nor on any other of the sides on the 'Big Charlie' except those
      > alongside Jabbo --- yes I know, Jabbo. 'Big Charlie' has far more chops, is
      > faster, lighter and, above all, shows profound Louis influence which Tom
      > never did. Also no use of mutes. I dug into 'Big Charlie' a few years back
      > and convinced myself that most of the sides on the album are by one man. All
      > other known possibilities, including Gaines, I eventually excluded. Coming
      > back to the album after a time, I still find it mostly convincing -- except
      > the Jabbos.
      >
      > The physical appearance of the man remembered by Eva Taylor sounds
      > strikingly close to Tom Morris, as does the name. My guess would be that
      > when played the side she, probably not being very interested nor having ears
      > to distinguish one cornet from another, misremembered Tom. But I would like
      > to think that whoever put the question -- where ? -- went on to exclude the
      > obvious, Morris.
    • David Brown
      Many thanks Howard I never cease to be amazed at what you can find. His sad early demise placed him beyond reach of the early discographers /collectors and may
      Message 2 of 27 , Oct 15, 2009
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        Many thanks Howard

        I never cease to be amazed at what you can find. His sad early demise placed
        him beyond reach of the early discographers /collectors and may add a pinch
        more circumstantial evidence to his case as the unattributed 'Big Charlie'.

        Many thanks John

        Reading the JRT notes to the 'Big Charlie', I infer some self-subversion,
        particularly in the excerpt I quoted recently. But I do believe that JRT
        felt the work to be by one man. He, as a practising brass player, offers
        technical analysis of Charlie's style and I believe that what he is
        subverting is the name he has 'invented'. Howard's information would put
        Johnson's birth as almost definitely 1897. But the fact that he was
        described as being older has always grated on me because his style, heavily
        Louis influenced, suggests, rather, a young Turk. The linkage of the man
        described by Eva with that hailed by Carter as 'Big Charlie' is anyway, to
        me, very tenuous. It assumes that Eva had the ears and memory to recognise
        one cornettist on one session among so many that she made.

        My use of 'chops' was not qualitative. I am not saying that Charlie was
        better than Tom, just different. I agree with you, I observed recently the
        apparent variance in Tom's style but I would put this down to material as
        well as context.

        BUT. AS EVER. We run into the problem of provenance of the personnels we are
        working from. Rust mostly I mean. I have learned to work initially only from
        cast iron examples. Only this week I falsely designated work to Gus Aiken
        through relying on Rust. I do not have the Elvira, nor have I found it
        available online, but my Rust has unk. cornet. There is cast iron Gaines on
        the 1929 Waller Buddies. This is later than 'Big Charlie' and shows him to
        be an E.Coast stylist with about no Louis influence. I would therefore be
        surprised to hear that Gaines was playing in Louis style three years earlier
        on the Elvira and would thus doubt the attribution. I observe that the sides
        are smack in the middle of Big Charlie's time span although I assume that
        JRT must have heard and discounted.

        I think to hear the case for a 'Big Charlie' one has to hear the complete
        album, or the sides on the album, in sequence. Context is extremely
        important for comparative listening. I hear the same man -- mostly --
        although realistically there is so little cornet on some sides and/or so
        badly recorded that it is impossible to tell. But we are still left with the
        sides which sound like, and were claimed by, Jabbo. This must seriously
        undermine the case for Big Charlie but the playing is similar enough for it
        to be put down as mistake rather than piss-take.

        Dave






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      • Howard Rye
        This provoked me into digitizing my very old file on Leon Abbey¹s British stays (that old) and I can add one more detail about Charlie Johnson. Abbey was a
        Message 3 of 27 , Oct 15, 2009
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          This provoked me into digitizing my very old file on Leon Abbey¹s British
          stays (that old) and I can add one more detail about Charlie Johnson.

          Abbey was a notorious poacher of other people¹s bands and the band he
          poached for his British trip was Bill Brown¹s Brownies, so we can be sure
          that it is the same Charles Johnson on their 17 March 1927 Vocalion, but the
          file card (which is reproduced in VJM 119) gives no personnel information.

          The Abbey band¹s main British gig was at the Olympia Dance Hall, which had
          three bandstands. The others were occupied by Herman Darewski¹s band and
          Gwen Rogers¹ Musical Dolls. I still have no idea who the Musical Dolls were,
          not that I¹ve tried very hard to find out, but they didn¹t take part in any
          of the broadcasts made by the other two bands.

          on 15/10/2009 10:04, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Many thanks Howard
          >
          > I never cease to be amazed at what you can find. His sad early demise placed
          > him beyond reach of the early discographers /collectors and may add a pinch
          > more circumstantial evidence to his case as the unattributed 'Big Charlie'.
          >


          Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
          howard@...
          Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




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        • David Brown
          Thanks again Howard Rust has a full personnel for the Brownies March 1927 -- no probs, poss.s or ?s. Jazz Directory has total unks. So I wonder where it came
          Message 4 of 27 , Oct 15, 2009
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            Thanks again Howard

            Rust has a full personnel for the Brownies March 1927 -- no probs, poss.s or
            ?s. Jazz Directory has total unks. So I wonder where it came from ? By
            backdating what Abbey arrived with ?

            Not only Johnson but also, at least, Ralph James and Oliver Tines from the
            Brownies, and I guess thus also Leon Abbey, stayed in Europe. Tines is with
            Louis in both UK 1933 and Paris 1934 and James with Wooding in 1931. Life
            must surely have been sweeter this side of the Atlantic, or in Paris at
            least.

            Fascinating collateral information there. Research proves the Gwen Roger's
            Musical Dolls to have been a female quartet featuring the Japanese one
            string phonofiddle who recorded in 1926. The link below will also introduce
            the 'last great virtuoso of the bladder-and-string'. Burnt cork virtuoso.

            <http://www.jonroseweb.com/f_projects_phonofiddle.html>

            Dave








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          • Howard Rye
            Source is the New York Age of 28 January 1928 in a belated news item about Abbey taking the band (which astoundingly does tie up with the passenger list). ...
            Message 5 of 27 , Oct 15, 2009
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              Source is the New York Age of 28 January 1928 in a belated news item about
              Abbey taking the band (which astoundingly does tie up with the passenger
              list).


              on 15/10/2009 16:07, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Thanks again Howard
              >
              > Rust has a full personnel for the Brownies March 1927 -- no probs, poss.s or
              > ?s. Jazz Directory has total unks. So I wonder where it came from ? By
              > backdating what Abbey arrived with ?
              >
              >


              Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
              howard@...
              Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • David Brown
              Hello Yves I ll answer you on this thread. I m sure you never offend anybody and offer only stimulating topics for debate. It s in my head that Jabbo is
              Message 6 of 27 , Oct 16, 2009
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                Hello Yves

                I'll answer you on this thread. I 'm sure you never offend anybody and offer
                only stimulating topics for debate.

                It's in my head that Jabbo is almost cast iron on the 'Ham Gravy' session
                but I forget the source. Howard will know.

                It certainly is more bravura playing and more technically without flaw,
                although not flawless, than the other sides.

                On Harry Cooper, I find not only the Fouad and Rostaing but three sessions
                in Paris under his own name 1943 and 1947. Do you have these and/or know
                where they were ever available ?

                Dave




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Howard Rye
                The 1943 sessions are split across Jazz Time 799877-2: Americans In Paris Vol. 5 1939-1949; Jazz Time 789327-2: Americans In Paris Vol. 6 1942-1950, Jazz Time
                Message 7 of 27 , Oct 16, 2009
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                  The 1943 sessions are split across Jazz Time 799877-2: Americans In Paris
                  Vol. 5 1939-1949; Jazz Time 789327-2: Americans In Paris Vol. 6 1942-1950,
                  Jazz Time 781336-2: Antillles Jazz 1930-1954. (These were probably marketed
                  by EMI for about three weeks but the series does turn up from French on-line
                  dealers.

                  The 1947 titles were on Barclay 81.004/5: Le Jazz Parisien...liberé. Anyone
                  know a CD?

                  While we¹re here, I have a main title index to pre-war Jazz Hots and a
                  detailed index to Jazz-Tango Swing. If Charlie Johnson was interviewed by
                  contemporary French enthusiasts, I don¹t where the results were published.
                  Any ideas, Yves? These guys mostly played in upper-class watering holes to
                  which the young cognoscenti couldn¹t go and this probably accounts for the
                  very scant attention they devoted to them. Johnson is mentioned once in
                  Panassié¹s Douze Années de Jazz.

                  on 16/10/2009 10:13, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                  >
                  > On Harry Cooper, I find not only the Fouad and Rostaing but three sessions
                  > in Paris under his own name 1943 and 1947. Do you have these and/or know
                  > where they were ever available ?
                  >
                  > Dave
                  >
                  >


                  Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                  howard@...
                  Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Patrice Champarou
                  ... From: David Brown To: Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 11:13 AM Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re:
                  Message 8 of 27 , Oct 16, 2009
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...>
                    To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 11:13 AM
                    Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: BUDDY CHRISTIAN CREOLE FIVE


                    > On Harry Cooper, I find not only the Fouad and Rostaing but three sessions
                    > in Paris under his own name 1943 and 1947. Do you have these and/or know
                    > where they were ever available ?

                    I've just read Howard's reply, but just in case some would match... 7
                    tracks, apparently issued under Harry Cooper's name, are available on Swing
                    Caraibe : Paris 1929-1946 by Frémeaux et associés, FA 069
                    http://tinyurl.com/yh8xgux (Inspiration, Nuages, La Cigale, Allegro, Nos
                    impressions, Caprice en Ut, Lune Rosse - tracks listing also on
                    Amazon.co.uk).

                    Patrice
                  • David Brown
                    To answer myself on Ham Gravy and save Howard s energy. It never Rains but it --. Richard Rains, again, is the source in the notes of the Frog Tom Morris. He
                    Message 9 of 27 , Oct 16, 2009
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                      To answer myself on 'Ham Gravy' and save Howard's energy.

                      It never Rains but it --. Richard Rains, again, is the source in the notes
                      of the Frog Tom Morris. He claims to have confirmed this personally with
                      Jabbo.

                      It would certainly be nice if he joined us.

                      Dave





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Howard Rye
                      Yes, indeed. These are the 1943 sides. Can¹t recommend this double CD too strongly. Simply didn¹t think of it in this context. ... [Non-text portions of this
                      Message 10 of 27 , Oct 16, 2009
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                        Yes, indeed. These are the 1943 sides. Can¹t recommend this double CD too
                        strongly. Simply didn¹t think of it in this context.


                        on 16/10/2009 11:38, Patrice Champarou at patrice.champarou@... wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...
                        > <mailto:johnhaleysims%40yahoo.co.uk> >
                        > To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com> >
                        > Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 11:13 AM
                        > Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: BUDDY CHRISTIAN CREOLE FIVE
                        >
                        >> > On Harry Cooper, I find not only the Fouad and Rostaing but three sessions
                        >> > in Paris under his own name 1943 and 1947. Do you have these and/or know
                        >> > where they were ever available ?
                        >
                        > I've just read Howard's reply, but just in case some would match... 7
                        > tracks, apparently issued under Harry Cooper's name, are available on Swing
                        > Caraibe : Paris 1929-1946 by Frémeaux et associés, FA 069
                        > http://tinyurl.com/yh8xgux (Inspiration, Nuages, La Cigale, Allegro, Nos
                        > impressions, Caprice en Ut, Lune Rosse - tracks listing also on
                        > Amazon.co.uk).
                        >
                        > Patrice
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                        > howard@...
                        > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                        >



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • yves francois
                            RE: HARRY COOPER The Mengo Blue Stars have not been reissued on CD - also a Mengo Swing that has not been reissued is on youtube right now. I also have
                        Message 11 of 27 , Oct 16, 2009
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                              RE: HARRY COOPER The Mengo Blue Stars have not been reissued on CD - also a Mengo Swing that has not been reissued is on youtube right now. I also have the 78 - if you are curious e mail me personally I will send MP3 of the two sides in rather better sound than the youtube site - it is some of the best Cooper on record - SWING #187 BLUES DU MATIN PA 1 & 2.    Let me know if anyone needs them for their collection - they happen to be amongst my favorite records in the 40's (and I also highly recommend the 2 CD set "SWING CARIBE" - all 8 Cooper Swing's are on them, plus 2 others with him and Big Boy Goudie from 1946 or so)
                          Yves Francois Smierciak


                          --- On Fri, 10/16/09, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:

                          From: Howard Rye <howard@...>
                          Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: BUDDY CHRISTIAN CREOLE FIVE
                          To: "red hot jazz" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                          Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 6:43 AM













                           





                          Yes, indeed. These are the 1943 sides. Can¹t recommend this double CD too

                          strongly. Simply didn¹t think of it in this context.



                          on 16/10/2009 11:38, Patrice Champarou at patrice.champarou@ free.fr wrote:



                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > ----- Original Message -----

                          > From: "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@ yahoo.co. uk

                          > <mailto:johnhaleysi ms%40yahoo. co.uk> >

                          > To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogro ups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz% 40yahoogroups. com> >

                          > Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 11:13 AM

                          > Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: BUDDY CHRISTIAN CREOLE FIVE

                          >

                          >> > On Harry Cooper, I find not only the Fouad and Rostaing but three sessions

                          >> > in Paris under his own name 1943 and 1947. Do you have these and/or know

                          >> > where they were ever available ?

                          >

                          > I've just read Howard's reply, but just in case some would match... 7

                          > tracks, apparently issued under Harry Cooper's name, are available on Swing

                          > Caraibe : Paris 1929-1946 by Frémeaux et associés, FA 069

                          > http://tinyurl. com/yh8xgux (Inspiration, Nuages, La Cigale, Allegro, Nos

                          > impressions, Caprice en Ut, Lune Rosse - tracks listing also on

                          > Amazon.co.uk) .

                          >

                          > Patrice

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >>

                          >

                          >

                          > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB

                          > howard@coppermill. demon.co. uk

                          > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098

                          >



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