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RE: [RedHotJazz] BUDDY CHRISTIAN CREOLE FIVE

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  • David Brown
    Thanks to Yves for bringing our attention to these sides which I have now heard although not in definitive quality. Indeed wonderful cornet playing if
    Message 1 of 27 , Oct 9, 2009
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      Thanks to Yves for bringing our attention to these sides which I have now
      heard although not in definitive quality.

      Indeed wonderful cornet playing if strangely 'faltering', as John points
      out, on 'Sugar House'. I respect John as Morris expert and also agree that
      the playing on this side is similar to that on the 'Five Musical Blackbirds'
      which I do believe to be Morris, if somewhat untypical.

      However, the other sides are some distance from Tom in looseness of
      phrasing, range, Louis influence and, above all, lack of the familiar
      delicate Morris wa-wa. The wonderful muted work here -- how is that
      obtained? -- is much less tight in both phrasing and sound. The cornet on
      both 'Sunset' and 'Texas Mule' is very light and not a million miles from
      'Big Charlie'.

      I have listened to, and excluded, June Clark, an obvious candidate in this
      milieu. As to Harry Cooper, I can find no evidence of similar playing but
      then the problem is, as Michael observed, finding exposed single guaranteed.
      The best I can find is on the Clara Smith 25 September 1925 and I assume
      that Cooper is cast iron on this? The playing here shows less Louis
      influence, the phrasing is stiffer, the mute style is far broader and the
      tone more acid. Also there are omnipresent growls that are nowhere on the
      Creoles. Also the work with Ellington, totally contemporaneous with the
      Creoles, although agreed a different context, is no way compatible, stiffer,
      sourer, less 'modern'.

      I have therefore no candidate except possibly Big Charlie who is anyway a
      phantom. Unknown is best and if the Big Charlie issue proves anything it is
      that, as JRT subversively claims in his notes:-

      'while certainly a relatively small number of musicians reached the
      recording studios in those days, probably at least ten times as many as
      those whose names we know also recorded --- who have long merited
      recognition but have been passed over simply because their names were not
      remembered and may yet, given a name -- any name -- be recognised and
      appreciated.'

      Dave





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Howard Rye
      Harry Cooper is named on the Columbia file card which is as cast iron as it gets! The other three band members are named also. ... Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill
      Message 2 of 27 , Oct 9, 2009
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        Harry Cooper is named on the Columbia file card which is as cast iron as it
        gets! The other three band members are named also.


        on 09/10/2009 11:09, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

        >
        > As to Harry Cooper, I can find no evidence of similar playing but
        > then the problem is, as Michael observed, finding exposed single guaranteed.
        > The best I can find is on the Clara Smith 25 September 1925 and I assume
        > that Cooper is cast iron on this? The playing here shows less Louis
        > influence, the phrasing is stiffer, the mute style is far broader and the
        > tone more acid. Also there are omnipresent growls that are nowhere on the
        > Creoles. Also the work with Ellington, totally contemporaneous with the
        > Creoles, although agreed a different context, is no way compatible, stiffer,
        > sourer, less 'modern'.
        >
        >
        >


        Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
        howard@...
        Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • yves francois
           David and all - first you are very welcome. I love the Creole Five session - there is so much simpatico on the recordings. I was wondering on the cornet
        Message 3 of 27 , Oct 9, 2009
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             David and all - first you are very welcome. I love the Creole Five session - there is so much simpatico on the recordings. I was wondering on the cornet on the session - since the excellent but rather constricted work on "Sugar house Stomp"  did not remind me of Cooper, but the very bluesy approach on 'Sunset Blues" does - almost a different man sort to speak, save for the identical intonation (a lot of musicians including Morris, relax on the blues). I was comparing the cornet on the blues to the known Cooper sides (the Smith, and the HH4) and felt these sides may of been Cooper, but the fist title did NOT sound like him. I also have to note that the work in 1926 with Duke was pointing ahead, yes, it could have been that Cooper was part of the movement towards greater rhythmic freedom in his work- even over just a year earlier on the HH4, the Smith and Seminole sessions, and this could exclude him from this (after all he was with very forward
          musicians like Ellington, Abbey, Maceo Jefferson etc as the years progressed).    Regarding Thomas Morris (whom I also do like), it does sound a lot like him on the first tile (though the phrases are a little different to me), maybe that's why his and Cooper's names show up , after Gaines said he was not on the session. May I suggest listening to one other trumpet and that's Gus Aiken - comparing to the 1923 Gulf Coast Seven sides, and the 1925 Charlie Johnson Emerson (a great record for the trumpet and trombone work on it - is Aiken defiantly on this?), try the "Papa Better Watch Your Step" by the GCS, or either Johnson's from 1925 (esp the breaks on the "Meddlin With The Blues" - about 40 seconds in - shame about the over arranged moments on what could of been a fantastic record). Agree with David that putting forth the obvious June Clark would be wrong, as would (if we are keeping to NYC based trumpets that Bradford used in the post Dunn days)
          Thornton Brown.      I think the obvious unknown (inconnu) may have to stay listed on these recordings after all these years - will keep on listening to Morris, Cooper, RQ Dickerson (another slight possibility, he did share some of the same rhythms one finds in other St Louis trumpets of the 1920's - eg early Shoffner, Creath, and whomever that sensitive but rough trumpet was on Powell's Jazz Monarchs from St Louis - love the trumpet on that) and Gus Aiken and hope I find more to maybe bring up interest on these great horn players (or that splendid muted sound on "Sugar house Stomp") - and remember, unknown horn players on old records are like great art from China and Africa - we need not know or even pretend to know who is playing on the recording to appreciate itYves Francois Smierciak

          --- On Fri, 10/9/09, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:

          From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
          Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] BUDDY CHRISTIAN CREOLE FIVE
          To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, October 9, 2009, 5:09 AM













           





          Thanks to Yves for bringing our attention to these sides which I have now

          heard although not in definitive quality.



          Indeed wonderful cornet playing if strangely 'faltering', as John points

          out, on 'Sugar House'. I respect John as Morris expert and also agree that

          the playing on this side is similar to that on the 'Five Musical Blackbirds'

          which I do believe to be Morris, if somewhat untypical.



          However, the other sides are some distance from Tom in looseness of

          phrasing, range, Louis influence and, above all, lack of the familiar

          delicate Morris wa-wa. The wonderful muted work here -- how is that

          obtained? -- is much less tight in both phrasing and sound. The cornet on

          both 'Sunset' and 'Texas Mule' is very light and not a million miles from

          'Big Charlie'.



          I have listened to, and excluded, June Clark, an obvious candidate in this

          milieu. As to Harry Cooper, I can find no evidence of similar playing but

          then the problem is, as Michael observed, finding exposed single guaranteed.

          The best I can find is on the Clara Smith 25 September 1925 and I assume

          that Cooper is cast iron on this? The playing here shows less Louis

          influence, the phrasing is stiffer, the mute style is far broader and the

          tone more acid. Also there are omnipresent growls that are nowhere on the

          Creoles. Also the work with Ellington, totally contemporaneous with the

          Creoles, although agreed a different context, is no way compatible, stiffer,

          sourer, less 'modern'.



          I have therefore no candidate except possibly Big Charlie who is anyway a

          phantom. Unknown is best and if the Big Charlie issue proves anything it is

          that, as JRT subversively claims in his notes:-



          'while certainly a relatively small number of musicians reached the

          recording studios in those days, probably at least ten times as many as

          those whose names we know also recorded --- who have long merited

          recognition but have been passed over simply because their names were not

          remembered and may yet, given a name -- any name -- be recognised and

          appreciated. '



          Dave

















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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David Brown
          Hi Yves Right about Tom Morris being almost two players. Never at his best when required to follow an arrangement -- I doubt he actually read -- he blossoms
          Message 4 of 27 , Oct 12, 2009
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            Hi Yves

            Right about Tom Morris being almost two players. Never at his best when
            required to follow an arrangement -- I doubt he actually read -- he blossoms
            with the freedom of looser context.

            Aiken I have chronologically nearest to the Creoles on another Clara, 30
            July 1927 and on a Bradford, 16 Feb 1927. The work on the latter session,
            especially 'All That I Had Is Gone', is good but the phrasing and
            articulation are slower and heavier than on the Creoles. Compare the work
            leading out 'All That --' with that leading out 'Texas Mule' and this is
            obviously a different player. The player on the Johnsons is impressive but
            rhythmically stiff and I note the almost parody of period growl. Elsewhere
            Aiken is hard to find with no less than seven sessions in Rust as ? or poss.
            and one wonders just how useful these attributions are.

            I still cannot hear Cooper as showing particular rhythmic freedom at this
            stage. But I have dug out some sides he made in Paris during the war. And I
            wonder how he was not interned ? The playing here is much more technically
            impressive, rhythmically freer and flowing. He does not sound as
            anachronistic as one might expect after expatriation in Europe since 1928.
            There were at least two sessions in Paris, one 1942 under Fouad and one 1943
            under Rostaing. Are they anywhere available complete ? Are there any further
            later examples of his playing ?

            I also hit the almost contemporary 1941 Aiken session with Bechet. Not so
            impressive, overrun by Bechet and rather ragged but nice on 'Sleepy Time'
            which I guess he had a chance to absorb in the Louis big band.

            Dave





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • jtdyamond
            Hi David and others: It s members of the Jimmy Wade Orchestra (including Wade himself, c, and Arnett Nelson, cl) with possibly JP Johnson on p, on the 16 Feb
            Message 5 of 27 , Oct 12, 2009
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              Hi David and others:

              It's members of the Jimmy Wade Orchestra (including Wade himself, c, and Arnett Nelson, cl) with possibly JP Johnson on p, on the 16 Feb 1927 Bradford session. The Aiken Brothers, Gus and Eugene, were on the Paramount Bradford session recorded c. May 1923 (Fade Away Blues/Day Break Blues). You can also find early Aiken on a number of Black Swan sides associated with Ethel Waters, recorded in 1921 (see Hendersonia) - and early 1922 - but only before EW's southern tour in 1922 however.

              J.T. Dyamond

              --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Yves
              >
              > Right about Tom Morris being almost two players. Never at his best when
              > required to follow an arrangement -- I doubt he actually read -- he blossoms
              > with the freedom of looser context.
              >
              > Aiken I have chronologically nearest to the Creoles on another Clara, 30
              > July 1927 and on a Bradford, 16 Feb 1927. The work on the latter session,
              > especially 'All That I Had Is Gone', is good but the phrasing and
              > articulation are slower and heavier than on the Creoles. Compare the work
              > leading out 'All That --' with that leading out 'Texas Mule' and this is
              > obviously a different player. The player on the Johnsons is impressive but
              > rhythmically stiff and I note the almost parody of period growl. Elsewhere
              > Aiken is hard to find with no less than seven sessions in Rust as ? or poss.
              > and one wonders just how useful these attributions are.
              >
              > I still cannot hear Cooper as showing particular rhythmic freedom at this
              > stage. But I have dug out some sides he made in Paris during the war. And I
              > wonder how he was not interned ? The playing here is much more technically
              > impressive, rhythmically freer and flowing. He does not sound as
              > anachronistic as one might expect after expatriation in Europe since 1928.
              > There were at least two sessions in Paris, one 1942 under Fouad and one 1943
              > under Rostaing. Are they anywhere available complete ? Are there any further
              > later examples of his playing ?
              >
              > I also hit the almost contemporary 1941 Aiken session with Bechet. Not so
              > impressive, overrun by Bechet and rather ragged but nice on 'Sleepy Time'
              > which I guess he had a chance to absorb in the Louis big band.
              >
              > Dave
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • David Brown
              Hello J.T. Nice to hear. Thanks. Rust (1969) has Aiken firmly in place alongside J.P.J. on the Bradford. How did this ever get running then ? Although I do
              Message 6 of 27 , Oct 13, 2009
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                Hello J.T. Nice to hear.

                Thanks. Rust (1969) has Aiken firmly in place alongside J.P.J. on the
                Bradford. How did this ever get running then ? Although I do not have the
                April 1927 Gennetts for comparison, I believe you and was puzzling
                yesterday as to the clarinet. Ah Arnett !

                I think this supports my scepticism on Aiken, and other, Rustian
                attributions.

                There is very little piano to be heard and the placement of J.P.J. here must
                also then be questionable.

                Dave





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • spacelights
                Thanks for starting this thread, Yves... At the risk of over-speculation and attendant projections, I suspect the second cornetist on the Gulf Coast Seven s
                Message 7 of 27 , Oct 13, 2009
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                  Thanks for starting this thread, Yves...

                  At the risk of over-speculation and attendant projections, I suspect the second cornetist on the Gulf Coast Seven's "Papa Better Watch Your Step" and "Memphis Tennessee" is Morris... These were made the same day as the final Morris Past Jazz Masters session. He seems to have been a casual participant in the GCS: Gus Aiken plays the primary cornet parts, to which (probably) Morris lends sporadic support. A photo caption in Perry Bradford's memoir 'Born With The Blues' (1965) refers to Thomas Morris simply as "jazz cornet master".

                  I agree the Charlie Johnson "Meddlin' With The Blues" is a fascinating period piece: some elaborate arrangement, yes, but I think it works. The listed second cornetist Leroy Rutledge's only other known sessions are those two Ellington dates with Harry Cooper.

                  Best wishes,

                  John

                  --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, yves francois <aprestitine@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > May I suggest listening to one other trumpet and that's Gus Aiken - comparing to the 1923 Gulf Coast Seven sides, and the 1925 Charlie Johnson Emerson (a great record for the trumpet and trombone work on it - is Aiken defiantly on this?), try the "Papa Better Watch Your Step" by the GCS, or either Johnson's from 1925 (esp the breaks on the "Meddlin With The Blues" - about 40 seconds in - shame about the over arranged moments on what could of been a fantastic record).
                • spacelights
                  Is Margaret Carter a pseudonym for Margaret Johnson (or vice versa)? Listening to the latter s When A Gator Hollers, Folks Say It s A Sign Of Rain and
                  Message 8 of 27 , Oct 13, 2009
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                    Is Margaret Carter a pseudonym for Margaret Johnson (or vice versa)? Listening to the latter's "When A 'Gator Hollers, Folks Say It's A Sign Of Rain" and "Graysom Street Blues" (20 October 1926), the voice and delivery sound quite similar.

                    It's interesting to compare the the Jazz Rippers "South Rampart Street Blues" to a version by the New Orleans Blue Five two or three months later. Indeed, it indicates that the Rippers cornetist could be Morris after all, "Big Charlie Thomas" whimsy notwithstanding. The cornet solo and out-chorus on "The Skunk" sound markedly similar to Morris's work (especially his out-chorus lead) on "'Tain't Nobody's Bus'ness If I Do" with Clarence Williams in 1923.

                    There are similarities to Charlie Gaines's (under-recorded) solo in Elvira Johnson's "How Could I Be Blue?" (June 1926), yet it seems almost too coincidental that the great diminutive Charlie Irvis plays along with Margaret Carter's "Big Charlie" exhortation--he repeats some descending figures just before her shout.

                    Best regards,

                    John
                  • David Brown
                    Hello John Thanks. Several interesting points there. The notes to the Big Charlie have indeed Carter and Johnson as one and the same. I have the N.O. Blue 5
                    Message 9 of 27 , Oct 14, 2009
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                      Hello John

                      Thanks. Several interesting points there. The notes to the 'Big Charlie'
                      have indeed Carter and Johnson as one and the same.

                      I have the N.O. Blue 5 'South Rampart' in my ears now and super work from
                      wonderful Tom Morris. But, respect him and you though I do, he is not on the
                      Rippers nor on any other of the sides on the 'Big Charlie' except those
                      alongside Jabbo --- yes I know, Jabbo. 'Big Charlie' has far more chops, is
                      faster, lighter and, above all, shows profound Louis influence which Tom
                      never did. Also no use of mutes. I dug into 'Big Charlie' a few years back
                      and convinced myself that most of the sides on the album are by one man. All
                      other known possibilities, including Gaines, I eventually excluded. Coming
                      back to the album after a time, I still find it mostly convincing -- except
                      the Jabbos.

                      The physical appearance of the man remembered by Eva Taylor sounds
                      strikingly close to Tom Morris, as does the name. My guess would be that
                      when played the side she, probably not being very interested nor having ears
                      to distinguish one cornet from another, misremembered Tom. But I would like
                      to think that whoever put the question -- where ? -- went on to exclude the
                      obvious, Morris. The 'Big Charlie' shout might yet again merely be a
                      fabrication to add 'colour'. Irvis is also supposedly on the Rippers but the
                      shout is at the end of a cornet solo and Charlie Irvis was very small. Maybe
                      an in-joke ?

                      But I have one very hypothetical and circumstantial candidate for Big
                      Charlie. At the time of the Rippers session, according to Rust, Irvis was in
                      the Ellington band along with a trumpeter, Charlie Johnson, who coincidently
                      replaced Harry Cooper. I agree that I here make the assumption that the band
                      on record was also the working band. Charlie Johnson also appears on
                      (rejected) record in London with Leon Abbey, also coincidentally alongside
                      Harry Cooper, in January 1928 so I assume left USA with Abbey sometime in
                      1927. Apparently he remained in Europe for he was imported from Paris for
                      Louis' UK touring band in 1933. He also appears on two Freddy Taylor Paris
                      sessions in 1935. His expatriation would account for the total disappearance
                      of 'Big Charlie' from the NYC studios from early 1927.

                      He also recorded with Buddy Featherstonhaugh's Cosmopolitans, London 1933.
                      The solo on 'I've Got The World On A String' is probably him for, although
                      it is a three trumpet section, the others are Brits. There is not much here
                      for comparison, especially as he plays in tight mute, but there is enough to
                      observe that he has a fluent style not anomalous with that of Big Charlie.

                      He also appears in Rust on two sides by Bill Brown And His Brownies NYC
                      March 1927. I conjecture the muted work on these sides as the other
                      trumpeter, listed as Billy Hicks, BUT at about 2.22 on 'Hot Lips',
                      especially take -1, there bursts out a bravura trumpeter who leads us out.
                      Nothing totally compatible with the supposed Big Charlies but near enough
                      for speculation. Which is all this is.

                      Too much to expect there are any biographical details at all with such a
                      common name. Also I assume that all these Charlie Johnsons are the same man.

                      All Best

                      Dave




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Howard Rye
                      Charlie Johnson came to Europe with Leon Abbey in 1927, arriving at Southampton on 14 December. According to the passenger list, he was 30. He was not a member
                      Message 10 of 27 , Oct 14, 2009
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                        Charlie Johnson came to Europe with Leon Abbey in 1927, arriving at
                        Southampton on 14 December. According to the passenger list, he was 30. He
                        was not a member of Abbey¹s band on his previous trip to South America, from
                        which the band arrived back on 28 September.

                        He left Freddy Taylor in summer 1935 to go Bombay with Leon Abbey. At the
                        end of 1936 he was leading at the Villa d¹Este in Paris but reported laid up
                        with rheumatic ailments and when the band had to move to The Chantilly after
                        a fire in the Villa d¹Este on Christmas morning it was actually being led by
                        trumpeter Jimmie Bell.

                        His problem was obviously worse than rheumatic ailments and he died in the
                        American Hospital at Neuilly on 24 March 1937 in consequence of a kidney
                        operation.

                        He could obviously use a spot more research.



                        on 14/10/2009 11:30, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hello John
                        >
                        > Thanks. Several interesting points there. The notes to the 'Big Charlie'
                        > have indeed Carter and Johnson as one and the same.
                        >
                        > I have the N.O. Blue 5 'South Rampart' in my ears now and super work from
                        > wonderful Tom Morris. But, respect him and you though I do, he is not on the
                        > Rippers nor on any other of the sides on the 'Big Charlie' except those
                        > alongside Jabbo --- yes I know, Jabbo. 'Big Charlie' has far more chops, is
                        > faster, lighter and, above all, shows profound Louis influence which Tom
                        > never did. Also no use of mutes. I dug into 'Big Charlie' a few years back
                        > and convinced myself that most of the sides on the album are by one man. All
                        > other known possibilities, including Gaines, I eventually excluded. Coming
                        > back to the album after a time, I still find it mostly convincing -- except
                        > the Jabbos.
                        >
                        > The physical appearance of the man remembered by Eva Taylor sounds
                        > strikingly close to Tom Morris, as does the name. My guess would be that
                        > when played the side she, probably not being very interested nor having ears
                        > to distinguish one cornet from another, misremembered Tom. But I would like
                        > to think that whoever put the question -- where ? -- went on to exclude the
                        > obvious, Morris. The 'Big Charlie' shout might yet again merely be a
                        > fabrication to add 'colour'. Irvis is also supposedly on the Rippers but the
                        > shout is at the end of a cornet solo and Charlie Irvis was very small. Maybe
                        > an in-joke ?
                        >
                        > But I have one very hypothetical and circumstantial candidate for Big
                        > Charlie. At the time of the Rippers session, according to Rust, Irvis was in
                        > the Ellington band along with a trumpeter, Charlie Johnson, who coincidently
                        > replaced Harry Cooper. I agree that I here make the assumption that the band
                        > on record was also the working band. Charlie Johnson also appears on
                        > (rejected) record in London with Leon Abbey, also coincidentally alongside
                        > Harry Cooper, in January 1928 so I assume left USA with Abbey sometime in
                        > 1927. Apparently he remained in Europe for he was imported from Paris for
                        > Louis' UK touring band in 1933. He also appears on two Freddy Taylor Paris
                        > sessions in 1935. His expatriation would account for the total disappearance
                        > of 'Big Charlie' from the NYC studios from early 1927.
                        >
                        > He also recorded with Buddy Featherstonhaugh's Cosmopolitans, London 1933.
                        > The solo on 'I've Got The World On A String' is probably him for, although
                        > it is a three trumpet section, the others are Brits. There is not much here
                        > for comparison, especially as he plays in tight mute, but there is enough to
                        > observe that he has a fluent style not anomalous with that of Big Charlie.
                        >
                        > He also appears in Rust on two sides by Bill Brown And His Brownies NYC
                        > March 1927. I conjecture the muted work on these sides as the other
                        > trumpeter, listed as Billy Hicks, BUT at about 2.22 on 'Hot Lips',
                        > especially take -1, there bursts out a bravura trumpeter who leads us out.
                        > Nothing totally compatible with the supposed Big Charlies but near enough
                        > for speculation. Which is all this is.
                        >
                        > Too much to expect there are any biographical details at all with such a
                        > common name. Also I assume that all these Charlie Johnsons are the same man.
                        >
                        > All Best
                        >
                        > Dave
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                        > howard@...
                        > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                        >



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • spacelights
                        Hi Dave, The Big Charlie Thomas agenda seems something of a red herring... the name itself speculative, a conflation of disparate elements. Attributions of
                        Message 11 of 27 , Oct 14, 2009
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                          Hi Dave,

                          The "Big Charlie Thomas" agenda seems something of a red herring... the name itself speculative, a conflation of disparate elements. Attributions of Charlie Gaines and Thomas Morris on the Jazz Rippers (in Rust 3 and 4, respectively) imbue identifications of "Charlie Thomas" with a kind of winking caprice... In any case, the "Thomas" recalled by Eva as "a much older man than the rest of us" would seem to discount Gaines, Morris, and new candidate Johnson: from all evidence, younger than Eva and Clarence. I don't have the Timeless CD, would like to read the notes and listen in sequence (have heard most of the sides on other releases).

                          I don't necessarily agree that the Rippers cornetist has "far more chops" than Morris: the former seems rather more brash and round-toned, yet his results I find even more erratic than typical Morris (who displays creditable chops in various bags on the Williams Stompers, Wallers, Dixie Jazzers Washboard Bands and elsewhere). Morris is strangely workmanlike under his own leadership in 1926 (OKeh was reportedly more accomodating than Victor) and seems to cut loose and experiment more with others. I agree the Rippers man sounds more Armstrong-influenced--not unlike Gaines at that time--though it's perhaps worth noting that the N.O. Blue Five date includes "King of the Zulus".

                          Best wishes,

                          John

                          ps Have you heard the Elvira Johnson...?


                          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I have the N.O. Blue 5 'South Rampart' in my ears now and super work from
                          > wonderful Tom Morris. But, respect him and you though I do, he is not on the
                          > Rippers nor on any other of the sides on the 'Big Charlie' except those
                          > alongside Jabbo --- yes I know, Jabbo. 'Big Charlie' has far more chops, is
                          > faster, lighter and, above all, shows profound Louis influence which Tom
                          > never did. Also no use of mutes. I dug into 'Big Charlie' a few years back
                          > and convinced myself that most of the sides on the album are by one man. All
                          > other known possibilities, including Gaines, I eventually excluded. Coming
                          > back to the album after a time, I still find it mostly convincing -- except
                          > the Jabbos.
                          >
                          > The physical appearance of the man remembered by Eva Taylor sounds
                          > strikingly close to Tom Morris, as does the name. My guess would be that
                          > when played the side she, probably not being very interested nor having ears
                          > to distinguish one cornet from another, misremembered Tom. But I would like
                          > to think that whoever put the question -- where ? -- went on to exclude the
                          > obvious, Morris.
                        • David Brown
                          Many thanks Howard I never cease to be amazed at what you can find. His sad early demise placed him beyond reach of the early discographers /collectors and may
                          Message 12 of 27 , Oct 15, 2009
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                            Many thanks Howard

                            I never cease to be amazed at what you can find. His sad early demise placed
                            him beyond reach of the early discographers /collectors and may add a pinch
                            more circumstantial evidence to his case as the unattributed 'Big Charlie'.

                            Many thanks John

                            Reading the JRT notes to the 'Big Charlie', I infer some self-subversion,
                            particularly in the excerpt I quoted recently. But I do believe that JRT
                            felt the work to be by one man. He, as a practising brass player, offers
                            technical analysis of Charlie's style and I believe that what he is
                            subverting is the name he has 'invented'. Howard's information would put
                            Johnson's birth as almost definitely 1897. But the fact that he was
                            described as being older has always grated on me because his style, heavily
                            Louis influenced, suggests, rather, a young Turk. The linkage of the man
                            described by Eva with that hailed by Carter as 'Big Charlie' is anyway, to
                            me, very tenuous. It assumes that Eva had the ears and memory to recognise
                            one cornettist on one session among so many that she made.

                            My use of 'chops' was not qualitative. I am not saying that Charlie was
                            better than Tom, just different. I agree with you, I observed recently the
                            apparent variance in Tom's style but I would put this down to material as
                            well as context.

                            BUT. AS EVER. We run into the problem of provenance of the personnels we are
                            working from. Rust mostly I mean. I have learned to work initially only from
                            cast iron examples. Only this week I falsely designated work to Gus Aiken
                            through relying on Rust. I do not have the Elvira, nor have I found it
                            available online, but my Rust has unk. cornet. There is cast iron Gaines on
                            the 1929 Waller Buddies. This is later than 'Big Charlie' and shows him to
                            be an E.Coast stylist with about no Louis influence. I would therefore be
                            surprised to hear that Gaines was playing in Louis style three years earlier
                            on the Elvira and would thus doubt the attribution. I observe that the sides
                            are smack in the middle of Big Charlie's time span although I assume that
                            JRT must have heard and discounted.

                            I think to hear the case for a 'Big Charlie' one has to hear the complete
                            album, or the sides on the album, in sequence. Context is extremely
                            important for comparative listening. I hear the same man -- mostly --
                            although realistically there is so little cornet on some sides and/or so
                            badly recorded that it is impossible to tell. But we are still left with the
                            sides which sound like, and were claimed by, Jabbo. This must seriously
                            undermine the case for Big Charlie but the playing is similar enough for it
                            to be put down as mistake rather than piss-take.

                            Dave






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Howard Rye
                            This provoked me into digitizing my very old file on Leon Abbey¹s British stays (that old) and I can add one more detail about Charlie Johnson. Abbey was a
                            Message 13 of 27 , Oct 15, 2009
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                              This provoked me into digitizing my very old file on Leon Abbey¹s British
                              stays (that old) and I can add one more detail about Charlie Johnson.

                              Abbey was a notorious poacher of other people¹s bands and the band he
                              poached for his British trip was Bill Brown¹s Brownies, so we can be sure
                              that it is the same Charles Johnson on their 17 March 1927 Vocalion, but the
                              file card (which is reproduced in VJM 119) gives no personnel information.

                              The Abbey band¹s main British gig was at the Olympia Dance Hall, which had
                              three bandstands. The others were occupied by Herman Darewski¹s band and
                              Gwen Rogers¹ Musical Dolls. I still have no idea who the Musical Dolls were,
                              not that I¹ve tried very hard to find out, but they didn¹t take part in any
                              of the broadcasts made by the other two bands.

                              on 15/10/2009 10:04, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Many thanks Howard
                              >
                              > I never cease to be amazed at what you can find. His sad early demise placed
                              > him beyond reach of the early discographers /collectors and may add a pinch
                              > more circumstantial evidence to his case as the unattributed 'Big Charlie'.
                              >


                              Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                              howard@...
                              Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • David Brown
                              Thanks again Howard Rust has a full personnel for the Brownies March 1927 -- no probs, poss.s or ?s. Jazz Directory has total unks. So I wonder where it came
                              Message 14 of 27 , Oct 15, 2009
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                                Thanks again Howard

                                Rust has a full personnel for the Brownies March 1927 -- no probs, poss.s or
                                ?s. Jazz Directory has total unks. So I wonder where it came from ? By
                                backdating what Abbey arrived with ?

                                Not only Johnson but also, at least, Ralph James and Oliver Tines from the
                                Brownies, and I guess thus also Leon Abbey, stayed in Europe. Tines is with
                                Louis in both UK 1933 and Paris 1934 and James with Wooding in 1931. Life
                                must surely have been sweeter this side of the Atlantic, or in Paris at
                                least.

                                Fascinating collateral information there. Research proves the Gwen Roger's
                                Musical Dolls to have been a female quartet featuring the Japanese one
                                string phonofiddle who recorded in 1926. The link below will also introduce
                                the 'last great virtuoso of the bladder-and-string'. Burnt cork virtuoso.

                                <http://www.jonroseweb.com/f_projects_phonofiddle.html>

                                Dave








                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Howard Rye
                                Source is the New York Age of 28 January 1928 in a belated news item about Abbey taking the band (which astoundingly does tie up with the passenger list). ...
                                Message 15 of 27 , Oct 15, 2009
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                                  Source is the New York Age of 28 January 1928 in a belated news item about
                                  Abbey taking the band (which astoundingly does tie up with the passenger
                                  list).


                                  on 15/10/2009 16:07, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Thanks again Howard
                                  >
                                  > Rust has a full personnel for the Brownies March 1927 -- no probs, poss.s or
                                  > ?s. Jazz Directory has total unks. So I wonder where it came from ? By
                                  > backdating what Abbey arrived with ?
                                  >
                                  >


                                  Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                  howard@...
                                  Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • David Brown
                                  Hello Yves I ll answer you on this thread. I m sure you never offend anybody and offer only stimulating topics for debate. It s in my head that Jabbo is
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Oct 16, 2009
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                                    Hello Yves

                                    I'll answer you on this thread. I 'm sure you never offend anybody and offer
                                    only stimulating topics for debate.

                                    It's in my head that Jabbo is almost cast iron on the 'Ham Gravy' session
                                    but I forget the source. Howard will know.

                                    It certainly is more bravura playing and more technically without flaw,
                                    although not flawless, than the other sides.

                                    On Harry Cooper, I find not only the Fouad and Rostaing but three sessions
                                    in Paris under his own name 1943 and 1947. Do you have these and/or know
                                    where they were ever available ?

                                    Dave




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Howard Rye
                                    The 1943 sessions are split across Jazz Time 799877-2: Americans In Paris Vol. 5 1939-1949; Jazz Time 789327-2: Americans In Paris Vol. 6 1942-1950, Jazz Time
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Oct 16, 2009
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                                      The 1943 sessions are split across Jazz Time 799877-2: Americans In Paris
                                      Vol. 5 1939-1949; Jazz Time 789327-2: Americans In Paris Vol. 6 1942-1950,
                                      Jazz Time 781336-2: Antillles Jazz 1930-1954. (These were probably marketed
                                      by EMI for about three weeks but the series does turn up from French on-line
                                      dealers.

                                      The 1947 titles were on Barclay 81.004/5: Le Jazz Parisien...liberé. Anyone
                                      know a CD?

                                      While we¹re here, I have a main title index to pre-war Jazz Hots and a
                                      detailed index to Jazz-Tango Swing. If Charlie Johnson was interviewed by
                                      contemporary French enthusiasts, I don¹t where the results were published.
                                      Any ideas, Yves? These guys mostly played in upper-class watering holes to
                                      which the young cognoscenti couldn¹t go and this probably accounts for the
                                      very scant attention they devoted to them. Johnson is mentioned once in
                                      Panassié¹s Douze Années de Jazz.

                                      on 16/10/2009 10:13, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                                      >
                                      > On Harry Cooper, I find not only the Fouad and Rostaing but three sessions
                                      > in Paris under his own name 1943 and 1947. Do you have these and/or know
                                      > where they were ever available ?
                                      >
                                      > Dave
                                      >
                                      >


                                      Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                      howard@...
                                      Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Patrice Champarou
                                      ... From: David Brown To: Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 11:13 AM Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re:
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Oct 16, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...>
                                        To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 11:13 AM
                                        Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: BUDDY CHRISTIAN CREOLE FIVE


                                        > On Harry Cooper, I find not only the Fouad and Rostaing but three sessions
                                        > in Paris under his own name 1943 and 1947. Do you have these and/or know
                                        > where they were ever available ?

                                        I've just read Howard's reply, but just in case some would match... 7
                                        tracks, apparently issued under Harry Cooper's name, are available on Swing
                                        Caraibe : Paris 1929-1946 by Frémeaux et associés, FA 069
                                        http://tinyurl.com/yh8xgux (Inspiration, Nuages, La Cigale, Allegro, Nos
                                        impressions, Caprice en Ut, Lune Rosse - tracks listing also on
                                        Amazon.co.uk).

                                        Patrice
                                      • David Brown
                                        To answer myself on Ham Gravy and save Howard s energy. It never Rains but it --. Richard Rains, again, is the source in the notes of the Frog Tom Morris. He
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Oct 16, 2009
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                                          To answer myself on 'Ham Gravy' and save Howard's energy.

                                          It never Rains but it --. Richard Rains, again, is the source in the notes
                                          of the Frog Tom Morris. He claims to have confirmed this personally with
                                          Jabbo.

                                          It would certainly be nice if he joined us.

                                          Dave





                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Howard Rye
                                          Yes, indeed. These are the 1943 sides. Can¹t recommend this double CD too strongly. Simply didn¹t think of it in this context. ... [Non-text portions of this
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Oct 16, 2009
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                                            Yes, indeed. These are the 1943 sides. Can¹t recommend this double CD too
                                            strongly. Simply didn¹t think of it in this context.


                                            on 16/10/2009 11:38, Patrice Champarou at patrice.champarou@... wrote:

                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...
                                            > <mailto:johnhaleysims%40yahoo.co.uk> >
                                            > To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com> >
                                            > Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 11:13 AM
                                            > Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: BUDDY CHRISTIAN CREOLE FIVE
                                            >
                                            >> > On Harry Cooper, I find not only the Fouad and Rostaing but three sessions
                                            >> > in Paris under his own name 1943 and 1947. Do you have these and/or know
                                            >> > where they were ever available ?
                                            >
                                            > I've just read Howard's reply, but just in case some would match... 7
                                            > tracks, apparently issued under Harry Cooper's name, are available on Swing
                                            > Caraibe : Paris 1929-1946 by Frémeaux et associés, FA 069
                                            > http://tinyurl.com/yh8xgux (Inspiration, Nuages, La Cigale, Allegro, Nos
                                            > impressions, Caprice en Ut, Lune Rosse - tracks listing also on
                                            > Amazon.co.uk).
                                            >
                                            > Patrice
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >>
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                            > howard@...
                                            > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                                            >



                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • yves francois
                                                RE: HARRY COOPER The Mengo Blue Stars have not been reissued on CD - also a Mengo Swing that has not been reissued is on youtube right now. I also have
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Oct 16, 2009
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                                  RE: HARRY COOPER The Mengo Blue Stars have not been reissued on CD - also a Mengo Swing that has not been reissued is on youtube right now. I also have the 78 - if you are curious e mail me personally I will send MP3 of the two sides in rather better sound than the youtube site - it is some of the best Cooper on record - SWING #187 BLUES DU MATIN PA 1 & 2.    Let me know if anyone needs them for their collection - they happen to be amongst my favorite records in the 40's (and I also highly recommend the 2 CD set "SWING CARIBE" - all 8 Cooper Swing's are on them, plus 2 others with him and Big Boy Goudie from 1946 or so)
                                              Yves Francois Smierciak


                                              --- On Fri, 10/16/09, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:

                                              From: Howard Rye <howard@...>
                                              Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: BUDDY CHRISTIAN CREOLE FIVE
                                              To: "red hot jazz" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 6:43 AM













                                               





                                              Yes, indeed. These are the 1943 sides. Can¹t recommend this double CD too

                                              strongly. Simply didn¹t think of it in this context.



                                              on 16/10/2009 11:38, Patrice Champarou at patrice.champarou@ free.fr wrote:



                                              >

                                              >

                                              >

                                              >

                                              >

                                              > ----- Original Message -----

                                              > From: "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@ yahoo.co. uk

                                              > <mailto:johnhaleysi ms%40yahoo. co.uk> >

                                              > To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogro ups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz% 40yahoogroups. com> >

                                              > Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 11:13 AM

                                              > Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: BUDDY CHRISTIAN CREOLE FIVE

                                              >

                                              >> > On Harry Cooper, I find not only the Fouad and Rostaing but three sessions

                                              >> > in Paris under his own name 1943 and 1947. Do you have these and/or know

                                              >> > where they were ever available ?

                                              >

                                              > I've just read Howard's reply, but just in case some would match... 7

                                              > tracks, apparently issued under Harry Cooper's name, are available on Swing

                                              > Caraibe : Paris 1929-1946 by Frémeaux et associés, FA 069

                                              > http://tinyurl. com/yh8xgux (Inspiration, Nuages, La Cigale, Allegro, Nos

                                              > impressions, Caprice en Ut, Lune Rosse - tracks listing also on

                                              > Amazon.co.uk) .

                                              >

                                              > Patrice

                                              >

                                              >

                                              >

                                              >

                                              >>

                                              >

                                              >

                                              > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB

                                              > howard@coppermill. demon.co. uk

                                              > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098

                                              >



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