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RE: [RedHotJazz] BUDDY CHRISTIAN CREOLE FIVE

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  • David Brown
    Hi Yves Big Charlie worms can opens again. The Rippers are on the Big Charlie Thomas Timeless but the Creole 5s are not. Therefore JRT did not think they were
    Message 1 of 27 , Oct 5, 2009
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      Hi Yves

      Big Charlie worms can opens again.

      The Rippers are on the Big Charlie Thomas Timeless but the Creole 5s are
      not. Therefore JRT did not think they were the same man.

      Whether the player on the Rippers is Charlie, or if there ever was a
      Charlie, is still an enigma to me.

      Red Rust lists Charlie Gains (?) on the Creoles. I do not have these sides
      so cannot comment. Anybody know where they are?

      Dave





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Michael Rader
      Dave, everyone ... Herwin LP 107 - New Orleans Sounds in New York 1924-1926 or CD: Hot n Sweet 151222 The Complete Clarence Williams Sessions 1923-1931 Vol.
      Message 2 of 27 , Oct 5, 2009
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        Dave, everyone

        > Red Rust lists Charlie Gains (?) on the Creoles. I do not have these
        > sides
        > so cannot comment. Anybody know where they are?
        >

        Herwin LP 107 - New Orleans Sounds in New York 1924-1926 or CD: Hot 'n'Sweet 151222 The Complete Clarence Williams Sessions 1923-1931 Vol. 3: 1925-1926.

        Michael Rader
        ______________________________________________________
        GRATIS für alle WEB.DE-Nutzer: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT!
        Jetzt freischalten unter http://movieflat.web.de
      • Michael Rader
        Hello Yves, In his notes to Collectors Items 006, Chris Hillman also puts forward this proposition: aural evidence also certainly places him in Buddy
        Message 3 of 27 , Oct 5, 2009
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          Hello Yves,

          In his notes to Collectors Items 006, Chris Hillman also puts forward this proposition: "aural evidence also certainly places him in Buddy Christian's Creole Five at around the same time."

          After listening to the Hot 'n' Sweet CD and the Harry's Happy Four in various permutations on Frog DGF 69 (well worth having even if you already have the Missourians elsewhere, I agree that there are examples of cornet playing which could be by the same man. However, since Cooper often plays with another cornetist (Metcalf or Dickerson), I think hard and serious listening is required of me to stick my neck out.

          Best wishes and thanks for reminding me of some great music,

          Michael



          > Hello my friends, just a brief query
          > To me the wonderful trumpet on the Oken session by Buddy Christian's
          > Creole Five sounds a lot like Harry Cooper (I usually see him, Thomas
          > Morris or unknown as the trumpet on the session). Wasn't he with Duke
          > Ellington at about that time (would also explain the possibility of
          > Charlie Irvis' on this session, i also see Jake Frazier's name in
          > certain discographies) - the trumpet work on this session sounds
          > closer to him than the trumpet work on the subsequent sessions by the
          > Jazz Rippers (different vibrato and embouchure for certain). Is there
          > a consensus on who he is - the records are somewhat obscure (reissued
          > on Herwin 107 - in stunning sound I may add, better than many reissue
          > projects today), and i do not think that the trumpets on the Jazz
          > Rippers is the same guy, notwithstanding the otherwise excellent
          > liner notes have to say.
          > Any thoughts
          > Yves Francois Smierciak

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        • spacelights
          In Clarence Williams , Tom Lord writes: Charlie Gaines denies his presence (October 28, 1973). The cornet s approach and character on up-tempo instrumental
          Message 4 of 27 , Oct 5, 2009
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            In 'Clarence Williams', Tom Lord writes: "Charlie Gaines denies his presence (October 28, 1973)."

            The cornet's approach and character on up-tempo instrumental "Sugar House Stomp" seems quite similar to the Five Musical Blackbirds, recorded the same month (March 1926). Morris has long been listed on the Blackbirds; while I tend to go along with this, I feel his adaptability and inconsistency often make him difficult to identify...

            Harry Cooper has ample solo space on the Washingtonians' Pathe session of March 1926; the cornet on the Creole Five "Sugar House Stomp" seems more off-hand, slightly faltering (as on the Blackbirds), less bravura, less Armstrong-influenced? I would opt for Morris with a question mark.
          • Michael Rader
            Dave, Yves, everyone ... No, since he claims that the Timeless has all Big Charlie except for alternates (the Joe Sims and the Tom Morrises almost certainly
            Message 5 of 27 , Oct 6, 2009
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              Dave, Yves, everyone

              > The Rippers are on the Big Charlie Thomas Timeless but the Creole 5s
              > are
              > not. Therefore JRT did not think they were the same man.

              No, since he claims that the Timeless has all Big Charlie except for alternates (the Joe Sims and the Tom Morrises almost certainly known *not* to be Big Charlie) and one session-mate (the OKeh MelodyStars) for negligible Charlie-content. BUT Daniel Nevers in the note to the Hot 'n' Sweet Clarence Williams Vol. 3 suggests Big Charlie for the Creole Five.

              >
              > Whether the player on the Rippers is Charlie, or if there ever was a
              > Charlie, is still an enigma to me.

              Eva Taylor remembered and actually described him as something Thomas or Thomas something, an older man with little hair. Charlie Thomas was putting this together with the shout of encouragement to "Big Charlie" on one of the Jazz Rippers sides.

              Michael Rader
              ________________________________________________________________
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            • David Brown
              Thanks to Yves for bringing our attention to these sides which I have now heard although not in definitive quality. Indeed wonderful cornet playing if
              Message 6 of 27 , Oct 9, 2009
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                Thanks to Yves for bringing our attention to these sides which I have now
                heard although not in definitive quality.

                Indeed wonderful cornet playing if strangely 'faltering', as John points
                out, on 'Sugar House'. I respect John as Morris expert and also agree that
                the playing on this side is similar to that on the 'Five Musical Blackbirds'
                which I do believe to be Morris, if somewhat untypical.

                However, the other sides are some distance from Tom in looseness of
                phrasing, range, Louis influence and, above all, lack of the familiar
                delicate Morris wa-wa. The wonderful muted work here -- how is that
                obtained? -- is much less tight in both phrasing and sound. The cornet on
                both 'Sunset' and 'Texas Mule' is very light and not a million miles from
                'Big Charlie'.

                I have listened to, and excluded, June Clark, an obvious candidate in this
                milieu. As to Harry Cooper, I can find no evidence of similar playing but
                then the problem is, as Michael observed, finding exposed single guaranteed.
                The best I can find is on the Clara Smith 25 September 1925 and I assume
                that Cooper is cast iron on this? The playing here shows less Louis
                influence, the phrasing is stiffer, the mute style is far broader and the
                tone more acid. Also there are omnipresent growls that are nowhere on the
                Creoles. Also the work with Ellington, totally contemporaneous with the
                Creoles, although agreed a different context, is no way compatible, stiffer,
                sourer, less 'modern'.

                I have therefore no candidate except possibly Big Charlie who is anyway a
                phantom. Unknown is best and if the Big Charlie issue proves anything it is
                that, as JRT subversively claims in his notes:-

                'while certainly a relatively small number of musicians reached the
                recording studios in those days, probably at least ten times as many as
                those whose names we know also recorded --- who have long merited
                recognition but have been passed over simply because their names were not
                remembered and may yet, given a name -- any name -- be recognised and
                appreciated.'

                Dave





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Howard Rye
                Harry Cooper is named on the Columbia file card which is as cast iron as it gets! The other three band members are named also. ... Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill
                Message 7 of 27 , Oct 9, 2009
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                  Harry Cooper is named on the Columbia file card which is as cast iron as it
                  gets! The other three band members are named also.


                  on 09/10/2009 11:09, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                  >
                  > As to Harry Cooper, I can find no evidence of similar playing but
                  > then the problem is, as Michael observed, finding exposed single guaranteed.
                  > The best I can find is on the Clara Smith 25 September 1925 and I assume
                  > that Cooper is cast iron on this? The playing here shows less Louis
                  > influence, the phrasing is stiffer, the mute style is far broader and the
                  > tone more acid. Also there are omnipresent growls that are nowhere on the
                  > Creoles. Also the work with Ellington, totally contemporaneous with the
                  > Creoles, although agreed a different context, is no way compatible, stiffer,
                  > sourer, less 'modern'.
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                  howard@...
                  Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • yves francois
                     David and all - first you are very welcome. I love the Creole Five session - there is so much simpatico on the recordings. I was wondering on the cornet
                  Message 8 of 27 , Oct 9, 2009
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                       David and all - first you are very welcome. I love the Creole Five session - there is so much simpatico on the recordings. I was wondering on the cornet on the session - since the excellent but rather constricted work on "Sugar house Stomp"  did not remind me of Cooper, but the very bluesy approach on 'Sunset Blues" does - almost a different man sort to speak, save for the identical intonation (a lot of musicians including Morris, relax on the blues). I was comparing the cornet on the blues to the known Cooper sides (the Smith, and the HH4) and felt these sides may of been Cooper, but the fist title did NOT sound like him. I also have to note that the work in 1926 with Duke was pointing ahead, yes, it could have been that Cooper was part of the movement towards greater rhythmic freedom in his work- even over just a year earlier on the HH4, the Smith and Seminole sessions, and this could exclude him from this (after all he was with very forward
                    musicians like Ellington, Abbey, Maceo Jefferson etc as the years progressed).    Regarding Thomas Morris (whom I also do like), it does sound a lot like him on the first tile (though the phrases are a little different to me), maybe that's why his and Cooper's names show up , after Gaines said he was not on the session. May I suggest listening to one other trumpet and that's Gus Aiken - comparing to the 1923 Gulf Coast Seven sides, and the 1925 Charlie Johnson Emerson (a great record for the trumpet and trombone work on it - is Aiken defiantly on this?), try the "Papa Better Watch Your Step" by the GCS, or either Johnson's from 1925 (esp the breaks on the "Meddlin With The Blues" - about 40 seconds in - shame about the over arranged moments on what could of been a fantastic record). Agree with David that putting forth the obvious June Clark would be wrong, as would (if we are keeping to NYC based trumpets that Bradford used in the post Dunn days)
                    Thornton Brown.      I think the obvious unknown (inconnu) may have to stay listed on these recordings after all these years - will keep on listening to Morris, Cooper, RQ Dickerson (another slight possibility, he did share some of the same rhythms one finds in other St Louis trumpets of the 1920's - eg early Shoffner, Creath, and whomever that sensitive but rough trumpet was on Powell's Jazz Monarchs from St Louis - love the trumpet on that) and Gus Aiken and hope I find more to maybe bring up interest on these great horn players (or that splendid muted sound on "Sugar house Stomp") - and remember, unknown horn players on old records are like great art from China and Africa - we need not know or even pretend to know who is playing on the recording to appreciate itYves Francois Smierciak

                    --- On Fri, 10/9/09, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:

                    From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
                    Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] BUDDY CHRISTIAN CREOLE FIVE
                    To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Friday, October 9, 2009, 5:09 AM













                     





                    Thanks to Yves for bringing our attention to these sides which I have now

                    heard although not in definitive quality.



                    Indeed wonderful cornet playing if strangely 'faltering', as John points

                    out, on 'Sugar House'. I respect John as Morris expert and also agree that

                    the playing on this side is similar to that on the 'Five Musical Blackbirds'

                    which I do believe to be Morris, if somewhat untypical.



                    However, the other sides are some distance from Tom in looseness of

                    phrasing, range, Louis influence and, above all, lack of the familiar

                    delicate Morris wa-wa. The wonderful muted work here -- how is that

                    obtained? -- is much less tight in both phrasing and sound. The cornet on

                    both 'Sunset' and 'Texas Mule' is very light and not a million miles from

                    'Big Charlie'.



                    I have listened to, and excluded, June Clark, an obvious candidate in this

                    milieu. As to Harry Cooper, I can find no evidence of similar playing but

                    then the problem is, as Michael observed, finding exposed single guaranteed.

                    The best I can find is on the Clara Smith 25 September 1925 and I assume

                    that Cooper is cast iron on this? The playing here shows less Louis

                    influence, the phrasing is stiffer, the mute style is far broader and the

                    tone more acid. Also there are omnipresent growls that are nowhere on the

                    Creoles. Also the work with Ellington, totally contemporaneous with the

                    Creoles, although agreed a different context, is no way compatible, stiffer,

                    sourer, less 'modern'.



                    I have therefore no candidate except possibly Big Charlie who is anyway a

                    phantom. Unknown is best and if the Big Charlie issue proves anything it is

                    that, as JRT subversively claims in his notes:-



                    'while certainly a relatively small number of musicians reached the

                    recording studios in those days, probably at least ten times as many as

                    those whose names we know also recorded --- who have long merited

                    recognition but have been passed over simply because their names were not

                    remembered and may yet, given a name -- any name -- be recognised and

                    appreciated. '



                    Dave

















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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • David Brown
                    Hi Yves Right about Tom Morris being almost two players. Never at his best when required to follow an arrangement -- I doubt he actually read -- he blossoms
                    Message 9 of 27 , Oct 12, 2009
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                      Hi Yves

                      Right about Tom Morris being almost two players. Never at his best when
                      required to follow an arrangement -- I doubt he actually read -- he blossoms
                      with the freedom of looser context.

                      Aiken I have chronologically nearest to the Creoles on another Clara, 30
                      July 1927 and on a Bradford, 16 Feb 1927. The work on the latter session,
                      especially 'All That I Had Is Gone', is good but the phrasing and
                      articulation are slower and heavier than on the Creoles. Compare the work
                      leading out 'All That --' with that leading out 'Texas Mule' and this is
                      obviously a different player. The player on the Johnsons is impressive but
                      rhythmically stiff and I note the almost parody of period growl. Elsewhere
                      Aiken is hard to find with no less than seven sessions in Rust as ? or poss.
                      and one wonders just how useful these attributions are.

                      I still cannot hear Cooper as showing particular rhythmic freedom at this
                      stage. But I have dug out some sides he made in Paris during the war. And I
                      wonder how he was not interned ? The playing here is much more technically
                      impressive, rhythmically freer and flowing. He does not sound as
                      anachronistic as one might expect after expatriation in Europe since 1928.
                      There were at least two sessions in Paris, one 1942 under Fouad and one 1943
                      under Rostaing. Are they anywhere available complete ? Are there any further
                      later examples of his playing ?

                      I also hit the almost contemporary 1941 Aiken session with Bechet. Not so
                      impressive, overrun by Bechet and rather ragged but nice on 'Sleepy Time'
                      which I guess he had a chance to absorb in the Louis big band.

                      Dave





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • jtdyamond
                      Hi David and others: It s members of the Jimmy Wade Orchestra (including Wade himself, c, and Arnett Nelson, cl) with possibly JP Johnson on p, on the 16 Feb
                      Message 10 of 27 , Oct 12, 2009
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                        Hi David and others:

                        It's members of the Jimmy Wade Orchestra (including Wade himself, c, and Arnett Nelson, cl) with possibly JP Johnson on p, on the 16 Feb 1927 Bradford session. The Aiken Brothers, Gus and Eugene, were on the Paramount Bradford session recorded c. May 1923 (Fade Away Blues/Day Break Blues). You can also find early Aiken on a number of Black Swan sides associated with Ethel Waters, recorded in 1921 (see Hendersonia) - and early 1922 - but only before EW's southern tour in 1922 however.

                        J.T. Dyamond

                        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Yves
                        >
                        > Right about Tom Morris being almost two players. Never at his best when
                        > required to follow an arrangement -- I doubt he actually read -- he blossoms
                        > with the freedom of looser context.
                        >
                        > Aiken I have chronologically nearest to the Creoles on another Clara, 30
                        > July 1927 and on a Bradford, 16 Feb 1927. The work on the latter session,
                        > especially 'All That I Had Is Gone', is good but the phrasing and
                        > articulation are slower and heavier than on the Creoles. Compare the work
                        > leading out 'All That --' with that leading out 'Texas Mule' and this is
                        > obviously a different player. The player on the Johnsons is impressive but
                        > rhythmically stiff and I note the almost parody of period growl. Elsewhere
                        > Aiken is hard to find with no less than seven sessions in Rust as ? or poss.
                        > and one wonders just how useful these attributions are.
                        >
                        > I still cannot hear Cooper as showing particular rhythmic freedom at this
                        > stage. But I have dug out some sides he made in Paris during the war. And I
                        > wonder how he was not interned ? The playing here is much more technically
                        > impressive, rhythmically freer and flowing. He does not sound as
                        > anachronistic as one might expect after expatriation in Europe since 1928.
                        > There were at least two sessions in Paris, one 1942 under Fouad and one 1943
                        > under Rostaing. Are they anywhere available complete ? Are there any further
                        > later examples of his playing ?
                        >
                        > I also hit the almost contemporary 1941 Aiken session with Bechet. Not so
                        > impressive, overrun by Bechet and rather ragged but nice on 'Sleepy Time'
                        > which I guess he had a chance to absorb in the Louis big band.
                        >
                        > Dave
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • David Brown
                        Hello J.T. Nice to hear. Thanks. Rust (1969) has Aiken firmly in place alongside J.P.J. on the Bradford. How did this ever get running then ? Although I do
                        Message 11 of 27 , Oct 13, 2009
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                          Hello J.T. Nice to hear.

                          Thanks. Rust (1969) has Aiken firmly in place alongside J.P.J. on the
                          Bradford. How did this ever get running then ? Although I do not have the
                          April 1927 Gennetts for comparison, I believe you and was puzzling
                          yesterday as to the clarinet. Ah Arnett !

                          I think this supports my scepticism on Aiken, and other, Rustian
                          attributions.

                          There is very little piano to be heard and the placement of J.P.J. here must
                          also then be questionable.

                          Dave





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • spacelights
                          Thanks for starting this thread, Yves... At the risk of over-speculation and attendant projections, I suspect the second cornetist on the Gulf Coast Seven s
                          Message 12 of 27 , Oct 13, 2009
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                            Thanks for starting this thread, Yves...

                            At the risk of over-speculation and attendant projections, I suspect the second cornetist on the Gulf Coast Seven's "Papa Better Watch Your Step" and "Memphis Tennessee" is Morris... These were made the same day as the final Morris Past Jazz Masters session. He seems to have been a casual participant in the GCS: Gus Aiken plays the primary cornet parts, to which (probably) Morris lends sporadic support. A photo caption in Perry Bradford's memoir 'Born With The Blues' (1965) refers to Thomas Morris simply as "jazz cornet master".

                            I agree the Charlie Johnson "Meddlin' With The Blues" is a fascinating period piece: some elaborate arrangement, yes, but I think it works. The listed second cornetist Leroy Rutledge's only other known sessions are those two Ellington dates with Harry Cooper.

                            Best wishes,

                            John

                            --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, yves francois <aprestitine@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > May I suggest listening to one other trumpet and that's Gus Aiken - comparing to the 1923 Gulf Coast Seven sides, and the 1925 Charlie Johnson Emerson (a great record for the trumpet and trombone work on it - is Aiken defiantly on this?), try the "Papa Better Watch Your Step" by the GCS, or either Johnson's from 1925 (esp the breaks on the "Meddlin With The Blues" - about 40 seconds in - shame about the over arranged moments on what could of been a fantastic record).
                          • spacelights
                            Is Margaret Carter a pseudonym for Margaret Johnson (or vice versa)? Listening to the latter s When A Gator Hollers, Folks Say It s A Sign Of Rain and
                            Message 13 of 27 , Oct 13, 2009
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                              Is Margaret Carter a pseudonym for Margaret Johnson (or vice versa)? Listening to the latter's "When A 'Gator Hollers, Folks Say It's A Sign Of Rain" and "Graysom Street Blues" (20 October 1926), the voice and delivery sound quite similar.

                              It's interesting to compare the the Jazz Rippers "South Rampart Street Blues" to a version by the New Orleans Blue Five two or three months later. Indeed, it indicates that the Rippers cornetist could be Morris after all, "Big Charlie Thomas" whimsy notwithstanding. The cornet solo and out-chorus on "The Skunk" sound markedly similar to Morris's work (especially his out-chorus lead) on "'Tain't Nobody's Bus'ness If I Do" with Clarence Williams in 1923.

                              There are similarities to Charlie Gaines's (under-recorded) solo in Elvira Johnson's "How Could I Be Blue?" (June 1926), yet it seems almost too coincidental that the great diminutive Charlie Irvis plays along with Margaret Carter's "Big Charlie" exhortation--he repeats some descending figures just before her shout.

                              Best regards,

                              John
                            • David Brown
                              Hello John Thanks. Several interesting points there. The notes to the Big Charlie have indeed Carter and Johnson as one and the same. I have the N.O. Blue 5
                              Message 14 of 27 , Oct 14, 2009
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                                Hello John

                                Thanks. Several interesting points there. The notes to the 'Big Charlie'
                                have indeed Carter and Johnson as one and the same.

                                I have the N.O. Blue 5 'South Rampart' in my ears now and super work from
                                wonderful Tom Morris. But, respect him and you though I do, he is not on the
                                Rippers nor on any other of the sides on the 'Big Charlie' except those
                                alongside Jabbo --- yes I know, Jabbo. 'Big Charlie' has far more chops, is
                                faster, lighter and, above all, shows profound Louis influence which Tom
                                never did. Also no use of mutes. I dug into 'Big Charlie' a few years back
                                and convinced myself that most of the sides on the album are by one man. All
                                other known possibilities, including Gaines, I eventually excluded. Coming
                                back to the album after a time, I still find it mostly convincing -- except
                                the Jabbos.

                                The physical appearance of the man remembered by Eva Taylor sounds
                                strikingly close to Tom Morris, as does the name. My guess would be that
                                when played the side she, probably not being very interested nor having ears
                                to distinguish one cornet from another, misremembered Tom. But I would like
                                to think that whoever put the question -- where ? -- went on to exclude the
                                obvious, Morris. The 'Big Charlie' shout might yet again merely be a
                                fabrication to add 'colour'. Irvis is also supposedly on the Rippers but the
                                shout is at the end of a cornet solo and Charlie Irvis was very small. Maybe
                                an in-joke ?

                                But I have one very hypothetical and circumstantial candidate for Big
                                Charlie. At the time of the Rippers session, according to Rust, Irvis was in
                                the Ellington band along with a trumpeter, Charlie Johnson, who coincidently
                                replaced Harry Cooper. I agree that I here make the assumption that the band
                                on record was also the working band. Charlie Johnson also appears on
                                (rejected) record in London with Leon Abbey, also coincidentally alongside
                                Harry Cooper, in January 1928 so I assume left USA with Abbey sometime in
                                1927. Apparently he remained in Europe for he was imported from Paris for
                                Louis' UK touring band in 1933. He also appears on two Freddy Taylor Paris
                                sessions in 1935. His expatriation would account for the total disappearance
                                of 'Big Charlie' from the NYC studios from early 1927.

                                He also recorded with Buddy Featherstonhaugh's Cosmopolitans, London 1933.
                                The solo on 'I've Got The World On A String' is probably him for, although
                                it is a three trumpet section, the others are Brits. There is not much here
                                for comparison, especially as he plays in tight mute, but there is enough to
                                observe that he has a fluent style not anomalous with that of Big Charlie.

                                He also appears in Rust on two sides by Bill Brown And His Brownies NYC
                                March 1927. I conjecture the muted work on these sides as the other
                                trumpeter, listed as Billy Hicks, BUT at about 2.22 on 'Hot Lips',
                                especially take -1, there bursts out a bravura trumpeter who leads us out.
                                Nothing totally compatible with the supposed Big Charlies but near enough
                                for speculation. Which is all this is.

                                Too much to expect there are any biographical details at all with such a
                                common name. Also I assume that all these Charlie Johnsons are the same man.

                                All Best

                                Dave




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Howard Rye
                                Charlie Johnson came to Europe with Leon Abbey in 1927, arriving at Southampton on 14 December. According to the passenger list, he was 30. He was not a member
                                Message 15 of 27 , Oct 14, 2009
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                                  Charlie Johnson came to Europe with Leon Abbey in 1927, arriving at
                                  Southampton on 14 December. According to the passenger list, he was 30. He
                                  was not a member of Abbey¹s band on his previous trip to South America, from
                                  which the band arrived back on 28 September.

                                  He left Freddy Taylor in summer 1935 to go Bombay with Leon Abbey. At the
                                  end of 1936 he was leading at the Villa d¹Este in Paris but reported laid up
                                  with rheumatic ailments and when the band had to move to The Chantilly after
                                  a fire in the Villa d¹Este on Christmas morning it was actually being led by
                                  trumpeter Jimmie Bell.

                                  His problem was obviously worse than rheumatic ailments and he died in the
                                  American Hospital at Neuilly on 24 March 1937 in consequence of a kidney
                                  operation.

                                  He could obviously use a spot more research.



                                  on 14/10/2009 11:30, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hello John
                                  >
                                  > Thanks. Several interesting points there. The notes to the 'Big Charlie'
                                  > have indeed Carter and Johnson as one and the same.
                                  >
                                  > I have the N.O. Blue 5 'South Rampart' in my ears now and super work from
                                  > wonderful Tom Morris. But, respect him and you though I do, he is not on the
                                  > Rippers nor on any other of the sides on the 'Big Charlie' except those
                                  > alongside Jabbo --- yes I know, Jabbo. 'Big Charlie' has far more chops, is
                                  > faster, lighter and, above all, shows profound Louis influence which Tom
                                  > never did. Also no use of mutes. I dug into 'Big Charlie' a few years back
                                  > and convinced myself that most of the sides on the album are by one man. All
                                  > other known possibilities, including Gaines, I eventually excluded. Coming
                                  > back to the album after a time, I still find it mostly convincing -- except
                                  > the Jabbos.
                                  >
                                  > The physical appearance of the man remembered by Eva Taylor sounds
                                  > strikingly close to Tom Morris, as does the name. My guess would be that
                                  > when played the side she, probably not being very interested nor having ears
                                  > to distinguish one cornet from another, misremembered Tom. But I would like
                                  > to think that whoever put the question -- where ? -- went on to exclude the
                                  > obvious, Morris. The 'Big Charlie' shout might yet again merely be a
                                  > fabrication to add 'colour'. Irvis is also supposedly on the Rippers but the
                                  > shout is at the end of a cornet solo and Charlie Irvis was very small. Maybe
                                  > an in-joke ?
                                  >
                                  > But I have one very hypothetical and circumstantial candidate for Big
                                  > Charlie. At the time of the Rippers session, according to Rust, Irvis was in
                                  > the Ellington band along with a trumpeter, Charlie Johnson, who coincidently
                                  > replaced Harry Cooper. I agree that I here make the assumption that the band
                                  > on record was also the working band. Charlie Johnson also appears on
                                  > (rejected) record in London with Leon Abbey, also coincidentally alongside
                                  > Harry Cooper, in January 1928 so I assume left USA with Abbey sometime in
                                  > 1927. Apparently he remained in Europe for he was imported from Paris for
                                  > Louis' UK touring band in 1933. He also appears on two Freddy Taylor Paris
                                  > sessions in 1935. His expatriation would account for the total disappearance
                                  > of 'Big Charlie' from the NYC studios from early 1927.
                                  >
                                  > He also recorded with Buddy Featherstonhaugh's Cosmopolitans, London 1933.
                                  > The solo on 'I've Got The World On A String' is probably him for, although
                                  > it is a three trumpet section, the others are Brits. There is not much here
                                  > for comparison, especially as he plays in tight mute, but there is enough to
                                  > observe that he has a fluent style not anomalous with that of Big Charlie.
                                  >
                                  > He also appears in Rust on two sides by Bill Brown And His Brownies NYC
                                  > March 1927. I conjecture the muted work on these sides as the other
                                  > trumpeter, listed as Billy Hicks, BUT at about 2.22 on 'Hot Lips',
                                  > especially take -1, there bursts out a bravura trumpeter who leads us out.
                                  > Nothing totally compatible with the supposed Big Charlies but near enough
                                  > for speculation. Which is all this is.
                                  >
                                  > Too much to expect there are any biographical details at all with such a
                                  > common name. Also I assume that all these Charlie Johnsons are the same man.
                                  >
                                  > All Best
                                  >
                                  > Dave
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                  > howard@...
                                  > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                                  >



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • spacelights
                                  Hi Dave, The Big Charlie Thomas agenda seems something of a red herring... the name itself speculative, a conflation of disparate elements. Attributions of
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Oct 14, 2009
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                                    Hi Dave,

                                    The "Big Charlie Thomas" agenda seems something of a red herring... the name itself speculative, a conflation of disparate elements. Attributions of Charlie Gaines and Thomas Morris on the Jazz Rippers (in Rust 3 and 4, respectively) imbue identifications of "Charlie Thomas" with a kind of winking caprice... In any case, the "Thomas" recalled by Eva as "a much older man than the rest of us" would seem to discount Gaines, Morris, and new candidate Johnson: from all evidence, younger than Eva and Clarence. I don't have the Timeless CD, would like to read the notes and listen in sequence (have heard most of the sides on other releases).

                                    I don't necessarily agree that the Rippers cornetist has "far more chops" than Morris: the former seems rather more brash and round-toned, yet his results I find even more erratic than typical Morris (who displays creditable chops in various bags on the Williams Stompers, Wallers, Dixie Jazzers Washboard Bands and elsewhere). Morris is strangely workmanlike under his own leadership in 1926 (OKeh was reportedly more accomodating than Victor) and seems to cut loose and experiment more with others. I agree the Rippers man sounds more Armstrong-influenced--not unlike Gaines at that time--though it's perhaps worth noting that the N.O. Blue Five date includes "King of the Zulus".

                                    Best wishes,

                                    John

                                    ps Have you heard the Elvira Johnson...?


                                    --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I have the N.O. Blue 5 'South Rampart' in my ears now and super work from
                                    > wonderful Tom Morris. But, respect him and you though I do, he is not on the
                                    > Rippers nor on any other of the sides on the 'Big Charlie' except those
                                    > alongside Jabbo --- yes I know, Jabbo. 'Big Charlie' has far more chops, is
                                    > faster, lighter and, above all, shows profound Louis influence which Tom
                                    > never did. Also no use of mutes. I dug into 'Big Charlie' a few years back
                                    > and convinced myself that most of the sides on the album are by one man. All
                                    > other known possibilities, including Gaines, I eventually excluded. Coming
                                    > back to the album after a time, I still find it mostly convincing -- except
                                    > the Jabbos.
                                    >
                                    > The physical appearance of the man remembered by Eva Taylor sounds
                                    > strikingly close to Tom Morris, as does the name. My guess would be that
                                    > when played the side she, probably not being very interested nor having ears
                                    > to distinguish one cornet from another, misremembered Tom. But I would like
                                    > to think that whoever put the question -- where ? -- went on to exclude the
                                    > obvious, Morris.
                                  • David Brown
                                    Many thanks Howard I never cease to be amazed at what you can find. His sad early demise placed him beyond reach of the early discographers /collectors and may
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Oct 15, 2009
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                                      Many thanks Howard

                                      I never cease to be amazed at what you can find. His sad early demise placed
                                      him beyond reach of the early discographers /collectors and may add a pinch
                                      more circumstantial evidence to his case as the unattributed 'Big Charlie'.

                                      Many thanks John

                                      Reading the JRT notes to the 'Big Charlie', I infer some self-subversion,
                                      particularly in the excerpt I quoted recently. But I do believe that JRT
                                      felt the work to be by one man. He, as a practising brass player, offers
                                      technical analysis of Charlie's style and I believe that what he is
                                      subverting is the name he has 'invented'. Howard's information would put
                                      Johnson's birth as almost definitely 1897. But the fact that he was
                                      described as being older has always grated on me because his style, heavily
                                      Louis influenced, suggests, rather, a young Turk. The linkage of the man
                                      described by Eva with that hailed by Carter as 'Big Charlie' is anyway, to
                                      me, very tenuous. It assumes that Eva had the ears and memory to recognise
                                      one cornettist on one session among so many that she made.

                                      My use of 'chops' was not qualitative. I am not saying that Charlie was
                                      better than Tom, just different. I agree with you, I observed recently the
                                      apparent variance in Tom's style but I would put this down to material as
                                      well as context.

                                      BUT. AS EVER. We run into the problem of provenance of the personnels we are
                                      working from. Rust mostly I mean. I have learned to work initially only from
                                      cast iron examples. Only this week I falsely designated work to Gus Aiken
                                      through relying on Rust. I do not have the Elvira, nor have I found it
                                      available online, but my Rust has unk. cornet. There is cast iron Gaines on
                                      the 1929 Waller Buddies. This is later than 'Big Charlie' and shows him to
                                      be an E.Coast stylist with about no Louis influence. I would therefore be
                                      surprised to hear that Gaines was playing in Louis style three years earlier
                                      on the Elvira and would thus doubt the attribution. I observe that the sides
                                      are smack in the middle of Big Charlie's time span although I assume that
                                      JRT must have heard and discounted.

                                      I think to hear the case for a 'Big Charlie' one has to hear the complete
                                      album, or the sides on the album, in sequence. Context is extremely
                                      important for comparative listening. I hear the same man -- mostly --
                                      although realistically there is so little cornet on some sides and/or so
                                      badly recorded that it is impossible to tell. But we are still left with the
                                      sides which sound like, and were claimed by, Jabbo. This must seriously
                                      undermine the case for Big Charlie but the playing is similar enough for it
                                      to be put down as mistake rather than piss-take.

                                      Dave






                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Howard Rye
                                      This provoked me into digitizing my very old file on Leon Abbey¹s British stays (that old) and I can add one more detail about Charlie Johnson. Abbey was a
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Oct 15, 2009
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                                        This provoked me into digitizing my very old file on Leon Abbey¹s British
                                        stays (that old) and I can add one more detail about Charlie Johnson.

                                        Abbey was a notorious poacher of other people¹s bands and the band he
                                        poached for his British trip was Bill Brown¹s Brownies, so we can be sure
                                        that it is the same Charles Johnson on their 17 March 1927 Vocalion, but the
                                        file card (which is reproduced in VJM 119) gives no personnel information.

                                        The Abbey band¹s main British gig was at the Olympia Dance Hall, which had
                                        three bandstands. The others were occupied by Herman Darewski¹s band and
                                        Gwen Rogers¹ Musical Dolls. I still have no idea who the Musical Dolls were,
                                        not that I¹ve tried very hard to find out, but they didn¹t take part in any
                                        of the broadcasts made by the other two bands.

                                        on 15/10/2009 10:04, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Many thanks Howard
                                        >
                                        > I never cease to be amazed at what you can find. His sad early demise placed
                                        > him beyond reach of the early discographers /collectors and may add a pinch
                                        > more circumstantial evidence to his case as the unattributed 'Big Charlie'.
                                        >


                                        Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                        howard@...
                                        Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • David Brown
                                        Thanks again Howard Rust has a full personnel for the Brownies March 1927 -- no probs, poss.s or ?s. Jazz Directory has total unks. So I wonder where it came
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Oct 15, 2009
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                                          Thanks again Howard

                                          Rust has a full personnel for the Brownies March 1927 -- no probs, poss.s or
                                          ?s. Jazz Directory has total unks. So I wonder where it came from ? By
                                          backdating what Abbey arrived with ?

                                          Not only Johnson but also, at least, Ralph James and Oliver Tines from the
                                          Brownies, and I guess thus also Leon Abbey, stayed in Europe. Tines is with
                                          Louis in both UK 1933 and Paris 1934 and James with Wooding in 1931. Life
                                          must surely have been sweeter this side of the Atlantic, or in Paris at
                                          least.

                                          Fascinating collateral information there. Research proves the Gwen Roger's
                                          Musical Dolls to have been a female quartet featuring the Japanese one
                                          string phonofiddle who recorded in 1926. The link below will also introduce
                                          the 'last great virtuoso of the bladder-and-string'. Burnt cork virtuoso.

                                          <http://www.jonroseweb.com/f_projects_phonofiddle.html>

                                          Dave








                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Howard Rye
                                          Source is the New York Age of 28 January 1928 in a belated news item about Abbey taking the band (which astoundingly does tie up with the passenger list). ...
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Oct 15, 2009
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                                            Source is the New York Age of 28 January 1928 in a belated news item about
                                            Abbey taking the band (which astoundingly does tie up with the passenger
                                            list).


                                            on 15/10/2009 16:07, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Thanks again Howard
                                            >
                                            > Rust has a full personnel for the Brownies March 1927 -- no probs, poss.s or
                                            > ?s. Jazz Directory has total unks. So I wonder where it came from ? By
                                            > backdating what Abbey arrived with ?
                                            >
                                            >


                                            Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                            howard@...
                                            Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • David Brown
                                            Hello Yves I ll answer you on this thread. I m sure you never offend anybody and offer only stimulating topics for debate. It s in my head that Jabbo is
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Oct 16, 2009
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                                              Hello Yves

                                              I'll answer you on this thread. I 'm sure you never offend anybody and offer
                                              only stimulating topics for debate.

                                              It's in my head that Jabbo is almost cast iron on the 'Ham Gravy' session
                                              but I forget the source. Howard will know.

                                              It certainly is more bravura playing and more technically without flaw,
                                              although not flawless, than the other sides.

                                              On Harry Cooper, I find not only the Fouad and Rostaing but three sessions
                                              in Paris under his own name 1943 and 1947. Do you have these and/or know
                                              where they were ever available ?

                                              Dave




                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Howard Rye
                                              The 1943 sessions are split across Jazz Time 799877-2: Americans In Paris Vol. 5 1939-1949; Jazz Time 789327-2: Americans In Paris Vol. 6 1942-1950, Jazz Time
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Oct 16, 2009
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                                                The 1943 sessions are split across Jazz Time 799877-2: Americans In Paris
                                                Vol. 5 1939-1949; Jazz Time 789327-2: Americans In Paris Vol. 6 1942-1950,
                                                Jazz Time 781336-2: Antillles Jazz 1930-1954. (These were probably marketed
                                                by EMI for about three weeks but the series does turn up from French on-line
                                                dealers.

                                                The 1947 titles were on Barclay 81.004/5: Le Jazz Parisien...liberé. Anyone
                                                know a CD?

                                                While we¹re here, I have a main title index to pre-war Jazz Hots and a
                                                detailed index to Jazz-Tango Swing. If Charlie Johnson was interviewed by
                                                contemporary French enthusiasts, I don¹t where the results were published.
                                                Any ideas, Yves? These guys mostly played in upper-class watering holes to
                                                which the young cognoscenti couldn¹t go and this probably accounts for the
                                                very scant attention they devoted to them. Johnson is mentioned once in
                                                Panassié¹s Douze Années de Jazz.

                                                on 16/10/2009 10:13, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                                                >
                                                > On Harry Cooper, I find not only the Fouad and Rostaing but three sessions
                                                > in Paris under his own name 1943 and 1947. Do you have these and/or know
                                                > where they were ever available ?
                                                >
                                                > Dave
                                                >
                                                >


                                                Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                                howard@...
                                                Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Patrice Champarou
                                                ... From: David Brown To: Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 11:13 AM Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re:
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Oct 16, 2009
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...>
                                                  To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 11:13 AM
                                                  Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: BUDDY CHRISTIAN CREOLE FIVE


                                                  > On Harry Cooper, I find not only the Fouad and Rostaing but three sessions
                                                  > in Paris under his own name 1943 and 1947. Do you have these and/or know
                                                  > where they were ever available ?

                                                  I've just read Howard's reply, but just in case some would match... 7
                                                  tracks, apparently issued under Harry Cooper's name, are available on Swing
                                                  Caraibe : Paris 1929-1946 by Frémeaux et associés, FA 069
                                                  http://tinyurl.com/yh8xgux (Inspiration, Nuages, La Cigale, Allegro, Nos
                                                  impressions, Caprice en Ut, Lune Rosse - tracks listing also on
                                                  Amazon.co.uk).

                                                  Patrice
                                                • David Brown
                                                  To answer myself on Ham Gravy and save Howard s energy. It never Rains but it --. Richard Rains, again, is the source in the notes of the Frog Tom Morris. He
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Oct 16, 2009
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                                                    To answer myself on 'Ham Gravy' and save Howard's energy.

                                                    It never Rains but it --. Richard Rains, again, is the source in the notes
                                                    of the Frog Tom Morris. He claims to have confirmed this personally with
                                                    Jabbo.

                                                    It would certainly be nice if he joined us.

                                                    Dave





                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Howard Rye
                                                    Yes, indeed. These are the 1943 sides. Can¹t recommend this double CD too strongly. Simply didn¹t think of it in this context. ... [Non-text portions of this
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Oct 16, 2009
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Yes, indeed. These are the 1943 sides. Can¹t recommend this double CD too
                                                      strongly. Simply didn¹t think of it in this context.


                                                      on 16/10/2009 11:38, Patrice Champarou at patrice.champarou@... wrote:

                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                                      > From: "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...
                                                      > <mailto:johnhaleysims%40yahoo.co.uk> >
                                                      > To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com> >
                                                      > Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 11:13 AM
                                                      > Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: BUDDY CHRISTIAN CREOLE FIVE
                                                      >
                                                      >> > On Harry Cooper, I find not only the Fouad and Rostaing but three sessions
                                                      >> > in Paris under his own name 1943 and 1947. Do you have these and/or know
                                                      >> > where they were ever available ?
                                                      >
                                                      > I've just read Howard's reply, but just in case some would match... 7
                                                      > tracks, apparently issued under Harry Cooper's name, are available on Swing
                                                      > Caraibe : Paris 1929-1946 by Frémeaux et associés, FA 069
                                                      > http://tinyurl.com/yh8xgux (Inspiration, Nuages, La Cigale, Allegro, Nos
                                                      > impressions, Caprice en Ut, Lune Rosse - tracks listing also on
                                                      > Amazon.co.uk).
                                                      >
                                                      > Patrice
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >>
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                                      > howard@...
                                                      > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                                                      >



                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • yves francois
                                                          RE: HARRY COOPER The Mengo Blue Stars have not been reissued on CD - also a Mengo Swing that has not been reissued is on youtube right now. I also have
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Oct 16, 2009
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                            RE: HARRY COOPER The Mengo Blue Stars have not been reissued on CD - also a Mengo Swing that has not been reissued is on youtube right now. I also have the 78 - if you are curious e mail me personally I will send MP3 of the two sides in rather better sound than the youtube site - it is some of the best Cooper on record - SWING #187 BLUES DU MATIN PA 1 & 2.    Let me know if anyone needs them for their collection - they happen to be amongst my favorite records in the 40's (and I also highly recommend the 2 CD set "SWING CARIBE" - all 8 Cooper Swing's are on them, plus 2 others with him and Big Boy Goudie from 1946 or so)
                                                        Yves Francois Smierciak


                                                        --- On Fri, 10/16/09, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:

                                                        From: Howard Rye <howard@...>
                                                        Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: BUDDY CHRISTIAN CREOLE FIVE
                                                        To: "red hot jazz" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                                                        Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 6:43 AM













                                                         





                                                        Yes, indeed. These are the 1943 sides. Can¹t recommend this double CD too

                                                        strongly. Simply didn¹t think of it in this context.



                                                        on 16/10/2009 11:38, Patrice Champarou at patrice.champarou@ free.fr wrote:



                                                        >

                                                        >

                                                        >

                                                        >

                                                        >

                                                        > ----- Original Message -----

                                                        > From: "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@ yahoo.co. uk

                                                        > <mailto:johnhaleysi ms%40yahoo. co.uk> >

                                                        > To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogro ups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz% 40yahoogroups. com> >

                                                        > Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 11:13 AM

                                                        > Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: BUDDY CHRISTIAN CREOLE FIVE

                                                        >

                                                        >> > On Harry Cooper, I find not only the Fouad and Rostaing but three sessions

                                                        >> > in Paris under his own name 1943 and 1947. Do you have these and/or know

                                                        >> > where they were ever available ?

                                                        >

                                                        > I've just read Howard's reply, but just in case some would match... 7

                                                        > tracks, apparently issued under Harry Cooper's name, are available on Swing

                                                        > Caraibe : Paris 1929-1946 by Frémeaux et associés, FA 069

                                                        > http://tinyurl. com/yh8xgux (Inspiration, Nuages, La Cigale, Allegro, Nos

                                                        > impressions, Caprice en Ut, Lune Rosse - tracks listing also on

                                                        > Amazon.co.uk) .

                                                        >

                                                        > Patrice

                                                        >

                                                        >

                                                        >

                                                        >

                                                        >>

                                                        >

                                                        >

                                                        > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB

                                                        > howard@coppermill. demon.co. uk

                                                        > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098

                                                        >



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