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clarinet musings- from king's and nelson's, wade's and weldon's - and a final flo

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  • yves francois
    Hello David, Michael, Howard (all three of you I have quoted here from prior e mails re Flo and/or Nelson)and everyone else concerned last point first (and my
    Message 1 of 1 , Sep 16, 2009
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      Hello David, Michael, Howard (all three of you I have quoted here from prior e mails re Flo and/or Nelson)and everyone else concerned
      last point first (and my last post re RED HOT FLO)
      I for one am satisfied re Harris (I have learned however almost NEVER use certain when it's aural evidence), what I personally believe is this. The clarinet player on "RED HOT FLO" is the clarinet player on LeRoy Tibbs "ONE O CLOCK BLUES". David knows my point that whomever is the solo on One O Clock Blues is the solo on Red Hot Flo. In my opinion David did an excellent job linking both solos to the Condon session where Harris is on. It is almost certainly Harris however that point I am still open to see if anyone else finds someone who could be (besides Arville) on both earlier titles. Due to the aural evidence of the Jimmy Wade/Perry Bradford recordings made in NYC 1926/7 I would say no on it being either King or Nelson, the clarinet IMHO does not sound like the same player to my ears (I will take another listen Michael). The LeRoy Tibbs session was 2.1.1928 - were either musician from Wade's band in NYC at that date like Arville Harris was? Can
      we agree to disagree.I am through
      w Flo at this point BTW -unless you want to play the solo
      on the clarinet for me and seek employment in my band!!

      on to the related clarinet musings:
      ...........................................................................
      Michael Rader DID make a point here re the Wade band, let me post a quote here:
      "Storyville 56" by Ralph Gulliver. I can't go into all details for the moment, but these are the most relevant:
      - King was a member of the Wade band, in particular in late 1926-early 1927.
      - The Wade band was in New York during the period in question, returning to Chicago in mid-late April 1927, i.e. it is possible that musicians from the Wade band accompanied Eva Taylor up to the "Flo" session.
      - Someone actually seems to have spoken with King. Does anyone know if this has ever been published?
      - Has anything ever been published on Ernest Virgo's research on Arnett Nelson?

      Michael Rader

         I do think the point on the identity of who is playing on the Jimmy Wade band CAN be debated however, Ernest Virgo did some terrific work regarding Arnett Nelson IMHO - but remember when it's aural evidence it is ONLY that - we need to be precise weather we have aural evidence or more. What articles can I find re Virgo's studies on Arnett Nelson, I do know that both King and Nelson played w Wade's band in the NYC period (I have seen pictures and read from books, it seems I do need a complete set of Storyville's for my research - are they in CD form yet??).
         We do have one example of Clifford King's work before 1931 that is definite - on bass clarinet rec in Europe w Eddie South. I do not know how much this would help the debate, perhaps after I purchase the 1933 broadcasts and ask Mr Barnett about the 1926/7 Wade's we might have a better picture. Again, please understand that i do not have the notes re Nelson written by Mr Virgo, apologies on this.
         Now off to other Nelson musings. Howard Rye mentioned his point of view on an earlier e mail (April,8, 2009) regarding the clarinet on the penultimate Casey Bill Weldon session from later 1937. Here is the quote form the earlier e mail regarding Howard and David on the (excellent)clarinet on the 28 Oct 1937 session:
      ...........................................................................
      --- On Tue, 4/8/08, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:

      From: Howard Rye <howard@...>
      Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Arnett Nelson
      To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tuesday, April 8, 2008, 4:48 AM
         
                  In B&GR we listed the clarinetist on Casey Bill's 28 October 1937 as

      "unknown". This doesn't of course prove that it isn't Nelson, only that we

      know of no evidence that it is.



      This is one of the sessions Ernest Virgo promoted to big-up Nelson. André

      Vasset in 'Black Brother', which is an independent source based on actual

      study,  goes so far as to suggest Arnett as a possible. I would certainly go

      no further!

      on 8/4/08 7:14, David Brown at johnhaleysims@ yahoo.co. uk wrote:

      Many thanks Howard.

      Listening Arnett and indeed the various styles and alarming variations in

      quality are evident. I found a Hillman note which suggests why  :-

      ' --- had been a useful reedman throughout the 20s but by this time (1936)

      dissipation was taking its toll and the blues band sound provided an

      undemanding context for his genial but inconsistent playing.'



      He has several modes much dependent, I guess, on volume imbibed. Up tempo he

      is staccato, sparse and rhythmic with much rasping, reminiscent of Rand.

      Slower and/or on a better day he is more legato and fluent, more Dodds but

      still normally a rasp or two. Slowest is best and I have found one side,

      Casey Bill Weldon 'Christmas Time Blues' 28 Oct 1937 where the clarinet

      playing is superb and one can indeed believe that this is a player with N.O.

      roots. 'New Round & Round', which is faster and which I have only been able

      to sample but which I believe must be from the same session, also offers

      extremely fine, fluent N.O. sounding clarinet.

      How firm is Arnett for this session ?

      Dave
      ..........................................................................
      my questions here are now twofold regarding Mr Nelson and Mr King. What is the data regarding Mr Wade and Mr Bradford sessions regarding the clarinet player and is the clarinet on the Wade sessions the same as the King Mutt's? I am NOT trying to discredit Ernest Virgo's work on Arnett Nelson nor am I trying to discredit the wonderful work we KNOW is Nelson (I am a fan of Arnett Nelson) - it's just that the clarinet on the one title on the Magpye LP always hit me as not quite sounding like him (I am not even sure I would go with "possible", but certainly fair enough). It is not worth a bitter diatribe in words (or bruised emotions), but is it really Arnett (does not quite sound like Mr Nelson to me, and I have NO other ideas who either- how about the French inconnu?), I purchased the Weldon CD yesterday just to hear the wonderful clarinet on "New Round and Round" - David et all, if you need an MP3 plz contact me off list
      all the best and of course we CAN agree to disagree
      Yves Francois
      PS sorry for the long post but I felt these 3 points are all inter related
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