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RE: [RedHotJazz] Oh no, not Flo again

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  • David Brown
    Michael Nice to have Flo back. I recently alighted upon the Clarence sides of 27 April 1927 with Katherine Henderson, recorded 11 days after Flo . Can there
    Message 1 of 8 , Sep 14, 2009
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      Michael

      Nice to have 'Flo' back. I recently alighted upon the Clarence sides of 27
      April 1927 with Katherine Henderson, recorded 11 days after 'Flo'. Can there
      be any doubt aurally that the clarinet on 'Flo' is the same man Rusted on
      the Henderson as Arville and who -- more circumstantial evidence here --
      doubles tenor ? I also cite the clarinet solo on the Clarence Blue 5 'Old
      Folks Shuffle', recorded 2 days before 'Flo', as the same man -- Arville.

      I have only been able to hear the Bradford OKehs on RHJ but even so am
      convinced this is NOT the same player but one with more staccato phrasing in
      Shields style. However, the playing here is not anomalous with the most
      exposed supposed King I have found, the South 'Marchetta' of 27 Sept 1931.
      However, again, the placement of King on the South sides for a period of
      over 5 years from 1929 seems problematic and I'm not at all convinced it is
      the same player throughout.

      Dave










      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • yves francois
      Hi to the cast of the new musical Flo - the clarinet who never leaves the conversation re: CLIFFORD KINGAnthony Barrett, who would be IMHO more knowledgeable
      Message 2 of 8 , Sep 14, 2009
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        Hi to the cast of the new musical "Flo - the clarinet who never leaves the conversation"re: CLIFFORD KINGAnthony Barrett, who would be IMHO more knowledgeable than anyone re Mr King (due to his work on Eddie South) has listened to Flo and feels that the clarinet player is NOT Mr King. I wanted to buy the 3 CD South set before I give my final impressions, but have not purchased it yet. I presume it is probably Arville Harris, and he declined in the 1930's - due to either a decline in physical powers or, even worse, trying to "modernize" his style - to dire effectall the bestYves Francois

        --- On Mon, 9/14/09, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:

        From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
        Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Oh no, not Flo again
        To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, September 14, 2009, 5:12 AM













         





        Michael



        Nice to have 'Flo' back. I recently alighted upon the Clarence sides of 27

        April 1927 with Katherine Henderson, recorded 11 days after 'Flo'. Can there

        be any doubt aurally that the clarinet on 'Flo' is the same man Rusted on

        the Henderson as Arville and who -- more circumstantial evidence here --

        doubles tenor ? I also cite the clarinet solo on the Clarence Blue 5 'Old

        Folks Shuffle', recorded 2 days before 'Flo', as the same man -- Arville.



        I have only been able to hear the Bradford OKehs on RHJ but even so am

        convinced this is NOT the same player but one with more staccato phrasing in

        Shields style. However, the playing here is not anomalous with the most

        exposed supposed King I have found, the South 'Marchetta' of 27 Sept 1931.

        However, again, the placement of King on the South sides for a period of

        over 5 years from 1929 seems problematic and I'm not at all convinced it is

        the same player throughout.



        Dave



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




































        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • yves francois
        PS: my apology to misspelling Anthony Barnett s name - he was very helpful regarding this, and IMHO has one of the greatest independent record labels out there
        Message 3 of 8 , Sep 14, 2009
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          PS: my apology to misspelling Anthony Barnett's name - he was very helpful regarding this, and IMHO has one of the greatest independent record labels out there - now someone needs to create a label for obscure hot Harlem hornmen like Barnett for violins or GHB/Jazzology/American Music et all for NOLA music all the bestYves

          --- On Mon, 9/14/09, yves francois <aprestitine@...> wrote:

          From: yves francois <aprestitine@...>
          Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Oh no, not Flo again
          To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, September 14, 2009, 7:59 AM













           





          Hi to the cast of the new musical "Flo - the clarinet who never leaves the conversation" re: CLIFFORD KINGAnthony Barrett, who would be IMHO more knowledgeable than anyone re Mr King (due to his work on Eddie South) has listened to Flo and feels that the clarinet player is NOT Mr King. I wanted to buy the 3 CD South set before I give my final impressions, but have not purchased it yet. I presume it is probably Arville Harris, and he declined in the 1930's - due to either a decline in physical powers or, even worse, trying to "modernize" his style - to dire effectall the bestYves Francois



          --- On Mon, 9/14/09, David Brown <johnhaleysims@ yahoo.co. uk> wrote:



          From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@ yahoo.co. uk>

          Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Oh no, not Flo again

          To: RedHotJazz@yahoogro ups.com

          Date: Monday, September 14, 2009, 5:12 AM



           



          Michael



          Nice to have 'Flo' back. I recently alighted upon the Clarence sides of 27



          April 1927 with Katherine Henderson, recorded 11 days after 'Flo'. Can there



          be any doubt aurally that the clarinet on 'Flo' is the same man Rusted on



          the Henderson as Arville and who -- more circumstantial evidence here --



          doubles tenor ? I also cite the clarinet solo on the Clarence Blue 5 'Old



          Folks Shuffle', recorded 2 days before 'Flo', as the same man -- Arville.



          I have only been able to hear the Bradford OKehs on RHJ but even so am



          convinced this is NOT the same player but one with more staccato phrasing in



          Shields style. However, the playing here is not anomalous with the most



          exposed supposed King I have found, the South 'Marchetta' of 27 Sept 1931.



          However, again, the placement of King on the South sides for a period of



          over 5 years from 1929 seems problematic and I'm not at all convinced it is



          the same player throughout.



          Dave



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]































          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




































          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Michael Rader
          Yves, good to hear Anthony Barnett s opinion on King/Mr. Flo. Have you listened to the clarinet on the Perry Bradfords - not necessarily King, maybe Arnett
          Message 4 of 8 , Sep 14, 2009
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            Yves, good to hear Anthony Barnett's opinion on King/Mr. Flo.

            Have you listened to the clarinet on the Perry Bradfords - not necessarily King, maybe Arnett Nelson, but maybe...?

            I outlined the trail of evidence in my earlier posting and I'm still not convinced it's Arville Harris.

            I don't think the clarinet on the Bradfords is very similar to what we know is definitely King, but could you identify Buster Bailey or Albert Nicholas on their early 20s trio work if you only knew their work ca. 1930?

            Michael Rader


            > PS: my apology to misspelling Anthony Barnett's name - he was very
            > helpful regarding this, and IMHO has one of the greatest independent
            > record labels out there - now someone needs to create a label for
            > obscure hot Harlem hornmen like Barnett for violins or GHB/Jazzology/
            > American Music et all for NOLA music all the bestYves

            re: CLIFFORD KINGAnthony Barrett, who would
            > be IMHO more knowledgeable than anyone re Mr King (due to his work on
            > Eddie South) has listened to Flo and feels that the clarinet player
            > is NOT Mr King. .... I presume it is
            > probably Arville Harris, and he declined in the 1930's - due to
            > either a decline in physical powers or, even worse, trying to "
            > modernize" his style - to dire effectall the bestYves Francois

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          • fearfeasa
            Hi fellas - back again. Whatever about Flo, I thought the identity of the clarinet on the Bradfords had been determined well over 20 years ago, by Ernest S.
            Message 5 of 8 , Sep 14, 2009
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              Hi fellas - back again.

              Whatever about "Flo," I thought the identity of the clarinet on the
              Bradfords had been determined well over 20 years ago, by Ernest S.
              Virgo, with the assistance of a small team of which I was a member. It
              is Arnett Nelson, without a doubt, on both the OKehs and the Gennetts.

              The solos on Original BB Stomp and Dance are by a New Orleans man,
              stylistically, and with regard to embouchure. The stylistic traits
              correspond closely with those exhibited on Nelson's recordings from
              later in his career. I've listened to just about all of them (and many
              more without him), searching for Arnett over a 30-year period.

              Nelson was not "chameleonic": he had two basic styles, straight and
              hokum - or you might say that these were two aspects of his personal
              style, and, depending on circumstances, one or the other aspect came to
              the fore.

              The late Ernest S. Virgo would have been the first to deny that he
              considered Nelson "chameleonic." There are quite a few posters on this
              board who are unjustly dismissive of Ernest's abilities; I can't
              understand why, when it is apparent that the majority of them never knew
              the man. I had a long and fruitful collaboration with Ernest and was
              always amazed by his thoroughness and by his ability to make connections
              which others of us had not heard.

              It is high time to give him the credit he deserves!

              J.T. Dyamond

              Scríobh Michael Rader:
              > Yves, good to hear Anthony Barnett's opinion on King/Mr. Flo.
              >
              > Have you listened to the clarinet on the Perry Bradfords - not necessarily King, maybe Arnett Nelson, but maybe...?
              >
              > I outlined the trail of evidence in my earlier posting and I'm still not convinced it's Arville Harris.
              >
              > I don't think the clarinet on the Bradfords is very similar to what we know is definitely King, but could you identify Buster Bailey or Albert Nicholas on their early 20s trio work if you only knew their work ca. 1930?
              >
              > Michael Rader
              >
              >
              >
            • Howard Rye
              I dare say this is partly to my address so I may as well address it. I corresponded with Ernest Virgo over many years, though there was a lot more
              Message 6 of 8 , Sep 15, 2009
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                I dare say this is partly to my address so I may as well address it.

                I corresponded with Ernest Virgo over many years, though there was a lot
                more correspondence on his side than mine owing to his determination to have
                his theories and unsupported assumptions accepted as facts and incorporated
                in Blues & Gospel Records. He was sincere and serious but his methodology
                was fatally flawed. I dare say he was right more often than I was prepared
                to allow, but precisely the problem with people whose methods are so
                completely unscholarly is that no one who doesn't accept arguments "ad
                hominem" can ever tell.

                Many of the connections he pointed out to me which others had not heard they
                had not heard because they were not there.

                Yes, Michael, we are talking about the determination of so-called facts by
                committee, generally unsupported by anything than might usefully be called
                research. Don't get me wrong, these methods have a major part to play in
                suggesting lines of inquiry, and Chris Hillman for one has used these
                methods as the basis for serious work which has uncovered a great many
                genuine connections, but if even a fraction of the effort that has been put
                into these exercises had been put into real research we would know a lot
                more about who really did what.

                And yes this is a hobby horse of mine!



                Yes, Michae;l, it means that a group of people

                on 14/09/2009 18:30, fearfeasa at fearfeasa@... wrote:

                > The late Ernest S. Virgo would have been the first to deny that he
                > considered Nelson "chameleonic." There are quite a few posters on this
                > board who are unjustly dismissive of Ernest's abilities; I can't
                > understand why, when it is apparent that the majority of them never knew
                > the man. I had a long and fruitful collaboration with Ernest and was
                > always amazed by his thoroughness and by his ability to make connections
                > which others of us had not heard.
                >
                > It is high time to give him the credit he deserves!

                on 15/09/2009 07:23, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:
                >
                > When you say the identity "had been determined", by what means? Recording
                > files, interviews, newspaper items? Or was it agreement among a select band of
                > listeners? If the latter, then anyone has a right to challenge it (as I
                > suspect Chris Hillman is going to do in his new book). We have the example of
                > "Flo" on this list, where majority opinion favours Arville Harris and I still
                > have serious doubts. The panel method is time-honoured but still not
                > completely reliable. Were the findings on Nelson ever published? It would help
                > to say where instead of requiring people to go digging through their files.



                Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                howard@...
                Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
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