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Re: [RedHotJazz] Oh no, not Flo again

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  • Wouter Maréchal
    Any one with a lead sheet of this wonderfull song? That would be very welcome. Wouter M. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    Message 1 of 8 , Sep 14 12:39 AM
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      Any one with a lead sheet of this wonderfull song?
      That would be very welcome.
      Wouter M.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • David Brown
      Michael Nice to have Flo back. I recently alighted upon the Clarence sides of 27 April 1927 with Katherine Henderson, recorded 11 days after Flo . Can there
      Message 2 of 8 , Sep 14 3:12 AM
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        Michael

        Nice to have 'Flo' back. I recently alighted upon the Clarence sides of 27
        April 1927 with Katherine Henderson, recorded 11 days after 'Flo'. Can there
        be any doubt aurally that the clarinet on 'Flo' is the same man Rusted on
        the Henderson as Arville and who -- more circumstantial evidence here --
        doubles tenor ? I also cite the clarinet solo on the Clarence Blue 5 'Old
        Folks Shuffle', recorded 2 days before 'Flo', as the same man -- Arville.

        I have only been able to hear the Bradford OKehs on RHJ but even so am
        convinced this is NOT the same player but one with more staccato phrasing in
        Shields style. However, the playing here is not anomalous with the most
        exposed supposed King I have found, the South 'Marchetta' of 27 Sept 1931.
        However, again, the placement of King on the South sides for a period of
        over 5 years from 1929 seems problematic and I'm not at all convinced it is
        the same player throughout.

        Dave










        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • yves francois
        Hi to the cast of the new musical Flo - the clarinet who never leaves the conversation re: CLIFFORD KINGAnthony Barrett, who would be IMHO more knowledgeable
        Message 3 of 8 , Sep 14 5:59 AM
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          Hi to the cast of the new musical "Flo - the clarinet who never leaves the conversation"re: CLIFFORD KINGAnthony Barrett, who would be IMHO more knowledgeable than anyone re Mr King (due to his work on Eddie South) has listened to Flo and feels that the clarinet player is NOT Mr King. I wanted to buy the 3 CD South set before I give my final impressions, but have not purchased it yet. I presume it is probably Arville Harris, and he declined in the 1930's - due to either a decline in physical powers or, even worse, trying to "modernize" his style - to dire effectall the bestYves Francois

          --- On Mon, 9/14/09, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:

          From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
          Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Oh no, not Flo again
          To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, September 14, 2009, 5:12 AM













           





          Michael



          Nice to have 'Flo' back. I recently alighted upon the Clarence sides of 27

          April 1927 with Katherine Henderson, recorded 11 days after 'Flo'. Can there

          be any doubt aurally that the clarinet on 'Flo' is the same man Rusted on

          the Henderson as Arville and who -- more circumstantial evidence here --

          doubles tenor ? I also cite the clarinet solo on the Clarence Blue 5 'Old

          Folks Shuffle', recorded 2 days before 'Flo', as the same man -- Arville.



          I have only been able to hear the Bradford OKehs on RHJ but even so am

          convinced this is NOT the same player but one with more staccato phrasing in

          Shields style. However, the playing here is not anomalous with the most

          exposed supposed King I have found, the South 'Marchetta' of 27 Sept 1931.

          However, again, the placement of King on the South sides for a period of

          over 5 years from 1929 seems problematic and I'm not at all convinced it is

          the same player throughout.



          Dave



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




































          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • yves francois
          PS: my apology to misspelling Anthony Barnett s name - he was very helpful regarding this, and IMHO has one of the greatest independent record labels out there
          Message 4 of 8 , Sep 14 6:07 AM
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            PS: my apology to misspelling Anthony Barnett's name - he was very helpful regarding this, and IMHO has one of the greatest independent record labels out there - now someone needs to create a label for obscure hot Harlem hornmen like Barnett for violins or GHB/Jazzology/American Music et all for NOLA music all the bestYves

            --- On Mon, 9/14/09, yves francois <aprestitine@...> wrote:

            From: yves francois <aprestitine@...>
            Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Oh no, not Flo again
            To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, September 14, 2009, 7:59 AM













             





            Hi to the cast of the new musical "Flo - the clarinet who never leaves the conversation" re: CLIFFORD KINGAnthony Barrett, who would be IMHO more knowledgeable than anyone re Mr King (due to his work on Eddie South) has listened to Flo and feels that the clarinet player is NOT Mr King. I wanted to buy the 3 CD South set before I give my final impressions, but have not purchased it yet. I presume it is probably Arville Harris, and he declined in the 1930's - due to either a decline in physical powers or, even worse, trying to "modernize" his style - to dire effectall the bestYves Francois



            --- On Mon, 9/14/09, David Brown <johnhaleysims@ yahoo.co. uk> wrote:



            From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@ yahoo.co. uk>

            Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Oh no, not Flo again

            To: RedHotJazz@yahoogro ups.com

            Date: Monday, September 14, 2009, 5:12 AM



             



            Michael



            Nice to have 'Flo' back. I recently alighted upon the Clarence sides of 27



            April 1927 with Katherine Henderson, recorded 11 days after 'Flo'. Can there



            be any doubt aurally that the clarinet on 'Flo' is the same man Rusted on



            the Henderson as Arville and who -- more circumstantial evidence here --



            doubles tenor ? I also cite the clarinet solo on the Clarence Blue 5 'Old



            Folks Shuffle', recorded 2 days before 'Flo', as the same man -- Arville.



            I have only been able to hear the Bradford OKehs on RHJ but even so am



            convinced this is NOT the same player but one with more staccato phrasing in



            Shields style. However, the playing here is not anomalous with the most



            exposed supposed King I have found, the South 'Marchetta' of 27 Sept 1931.



            However, again, the placement of King on the South sides for a period of



            over 5 years from 1929 seems problematic and I'm not at all convinced it is



            the same player throughout.



            Dave



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]































            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




































            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Michael Rader
            Yves, good to hear Anthony Barnett s opinion on King/Mr. Flo. Have you listened to the clarinet on the Perry Bradfords - not necessarily King, maybe Arnett
            Message 5 of 8 , Sep 14 6:41 AM
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              Yves, good to hear Anthony Barnett's opinion on King/Mr. Flo.

              Have you listened to the clarinet on the Perry Bradfords - not necessarily King, maybe Arnett Nelson, but maybe...?

              I outlined the trail of evidence in my earlier posting and I'm still not convinced it's Arville Harris.

              I don't think the clarinet on the Bradfords is very similar to what we know is definitely King, but could you identify Buster Bailey or Albert Nicholas on their early 20s trio work if you only knew their work ca. 1930?

              Michael Rader


              > PS: my apology to misspelling Anthony Barnett's name - he was very
              > helpful regarding this, and IMHO has one of the greatest independent
              > record labels out there - now someone needs to create a label for
              > obscure hot Harlem hornmen like Barnett for violins or GHB/Jazzology/
              > American Music et all for NOLA music all the bestYves

              re: CLIFFORD KINGAnthony Barrett, who would
              > be IMHO more knowledgeable than anyone re Mr King (due to his work on
              > Eddie South) has listened to Flo and feels that the clarinet player
              > is NOT Mr King. .... I presume it is
              > probably Arville Harris, and he declined in the 1930's - due to
              > either a decline in physical powers or, even worse, trying to "
              > modernize" his style - to dire effectall the bestYves Francois

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            • fearfeasa
              Hi fellas - back again. Whatever about Flo, I thought the identity of the clarinet on the Bradfords had been determined well over 20 years ago, by Ernest S.
              Message 6 of 8 , Sep 14 10:30 AM
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                Hi fellas - back again.

                Whatever about "Flo," I thought the identity of the clarinet on the
                Bradfords had been determined well over 20 years ago, by Ernest S.
                Virgo, with the assistance of a small team of which I was a member. It
                is Arnett Nelson, without a doubt, on both the OKehs and the Gennetts.

                The solos on Original BB Stomp and Dance are by a New Orleans man,
                stylistically, and with regard to embouchure. The stylistic traits
                correspond closely with those exhibited on Nelson's recordings from
                later in his career. I've listened to just about all of them (and many
                more without him), searching for Arnett over a 30-year period.

                Nelson was not "chameleonic": he had two basic styles, straight and
                hokum - or you might say that these were two aspects of his personal
                style, and, depending on circumstances, one or the other aspect came to
                the fore.

                The late Ernest S. Virgo would have been the first to deny that he
                considered Nelson "chameleonic." There are quite a few posters on this
                board who are unjustly dismissive of Ernest's abilities; I can't
                understand why, when it is apparent that the majority of them never knew
                the man. I had a long and fruitful collaboration with Ernest and was
                always amazed by his thoroughness and by his ability to make connections
                which others of us had not heard.

                It is high time to give him the credit he deserves!

                J.T. Dyamond

                Scríobh Michael Rader:
                > Yves, good to hear Anthony Barnett's opinion on King/Mr. Flo.
                >
                > Have you listened to the clarinet on the Perry Bradfords - not necessarily King, maybe Arnett Nelson, but maybe...?
                >
                > I outlined the trail of evidence in my earlier posting and I'm still not convinced it's Arville Harris.
                >
                > I don't think the clarinet on the Bradfords is very similar to what we know is definitely King, but could you identify Buster Bailey or Albert Nicholas on their early 20s trio work if you only knew their work ca. 1930?
                >
                > Michael Rader
                >
                >
                >
              • Howard Rye
                I dare say this is partly to my address so I may as well address it. I corresponded with Ernest Virgo over many years, though there was a lot more
                Message 7 of 8 , Sep 15 1:33 AM
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                  I dare say this is partly to my address so I may as well address it.

                  I corresponded with Ernest Virgo over many years, though there was a lot
                  more correspondence on his side than mine owing to his determination to have
                  his theories and unsupported assumptions accepted as facts and incorporated
                  in Blues & Gospel Records. He was sincere and serious but his methodology
                  was fatally flawed. I dare say he was right more often than I was prepared
                  to allow, but precisely the problem with people whose methods are so
                  completely unscholarly is that no one who doesn't accept arguments "ad
                  hominem" can ever tell.

                  Many of the connections he pointed out to me which others had not heard they
                  had not heard because they were not there.

                  Yes, Michael, we are talking about the determination of so-called facts by
                  committee, generally unsupported by anything than might usefully be called
                  research. Don't get me wrong, these methods have a major part to play in
                  suggesting lines of inquiry, and Chris Hillman for one has used these
                  methods as the basis for serious work which has uncovered a great many
                  genuine connections, but if even a fraction of the effort that has been put
                  into these exercises had been put into real research we would know a lot
                  more about who really did what.

                  And yes this is a hobby horse of mine!



                  Yes, Michae;l, it means that a group of people

                  on 14/09/2009 18:30, fearfeasa at fearfeasa@... wrote:

                  > The late Ernest S. Virgo would have been the first to deny that he
                  > considered Nelson "chameleonic." There are quite a few posters on this
                  > board who are unjustly dismissive of Ernest's abilities; I can't
                  > understand why, when it is apparent that the majority of them never knew
                  > the man. I had a long and fruitful collaboration with Ernest and was
                  > always amazed by his thoroughness and by his ability to make connections
                  > which others of us had not heard.
                  >
                  > It is high time to give him the credit he deserves!

                  on 15/09/2009 07:23, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:
                  >
                  > When you say the identity "had been determined", by what means? Recording
                  > files, interviews, newspaper items? Or was it agreement among a select band of
                  > listeners? If the latter, then anyone has a right to challenge it (as I
                  > suspect Chris Hillman is going to do in his new book). We have the example of
                  > "Flo" on this list, where majority opinion favours Arville Harris and I still
                  > have serious doubts. The panel method is time-honoured but still not
                  > completely reliable. Were the findings on Nelson ever published? It would help
                  > to say where instead of requiring people to go digging through their files.



                  Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                  howard@...
                  Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
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