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Re: [RedHotJazz] Frog Spawn - a first opinion

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  • Howard Rye
    Thank you for that reassurance, Nick. Sometimes comparing takes can make you doubt your sanity. According to Index to Jazz the Franko personnel was supplied by
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 13, 2009
      Thank you for that reassurance, Nick. Sometimes comparing takes can make you
      doubt your sanity.

      According to Index to Jazz the Franko personnel was supplied by Eugene
      Williams, which doesn¹t really tell us the source, and he named Omer Simeon
      as the clarinettist and Fred Howard on tenor sax. Later the presence of an
      alto sax was noticed and Rust 3 has only one reed player (Howard, clarinet
      and alto sax). The alto sax was evidently identified as Leon Washington by
      the man himself in Record Research 99. I don¹t seem to have this but my
      notes from it at least imply that he confirmed the rest of the personnel as
      now quoted. It would be good to check though.


      on 13/09/2009 16:02, Nick Dellow at nick.dellow@... wrote:

      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Howard, I don't think you are going potty; I also hear "ain't" rather than
      > "weren't".
      >
      > Incidentally, the timbre of the sax heard under Punch's solo and vocal in
      > "Golden Lily Blues" sounds like that of a soprano, at least to my ears (even
      > though the notes played are well within the range of the alto sax);
      > however, the instrument featured after Cohn's piano solo is an alto sax! The
      > soprano sax is heard again towards the end of the side, as is a clarinet,
      > and by my reckoning the last two-bar riff is played in unison by cornet,
      > clarinet and soprano sax (with brass bass and cymbal adding the punctuation
      > marks!)
      >
      > Presumably, the clarinet is played by Fred Howard, as suggested by Rust in
      > the 4th (and earlier?) edition of Jazz Records, though oddly omitted in
      > later editions!
      >
      > Nick
      >
      > 2009/9/13 Howard Rye <howard@...
      > <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk> >
      >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > Okay, I know the provence of the modern belief that Arthur Ray is playing
      >> > an
      >> > accordion. But does anyone know of any other record in or out of jazz on
      >> > which an accordion sounds like this?
      >> >
      >> > These records have been known to collectors since forever and the
      >> > instrument
      >> > has always been listed as an organ. Perhaps this could just possibly be
      >> > because the labels of Vocalion 14913 state quite unambiguously ³organ and
      >> > cornet².
      >> >
      >> > I can¹t help thinking this is a solution in search of a problem.
      >> >
      >> > Just out of interest, are these the earliest jazz records that were not
      >> > primarily marketed for dancing? For they surely cannot have been aimed at
      >> > home dancers, can they? They are music intended for listening.
      >> >
      >> > I mean to try and describe the differences between the versions if I don¹t
      >> > go completely mad first, but the notes to DGF71 claim the Pathé version not
      >> > the Vocalion, and I think we have previously established that the Vocalion
      >> > version is on EPM (tracks 1 & 2).
      >> >
      >> > By the by, I don¹t think Frog are right that the version of Golden Lily
      >> > Blues on which the first line of the vocal is ³Well, standing on Garfield,
      >> > mama, near blue El² rather than ³Well, standing on Garfield, mama, near the
      >> > El² is issued here for the first time. I already have two takes and the
      >> > ³blue El² version is on Herwin H108 from the Klatzko/Whelan Collection. On
      >> > the other hand I can¹t hear on any version the other difference noted by
      >> > Richard Rains in the DGF71 notes, ³weren¹t that some good news² rather than
      >> > ³ain¹t that some good news².
      >> > Am I going potty or is something more complicated occurring here. Nick?
      >> >
      >> > on 11/09/2009 14:38, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@...
      >> <mailto:Rader.Michael%40web.de> <Rader.Michael%40web.de>wrote:
      >>> > > The Texas Blues Destroyers, comprising only Bubber Miley and Arthur Ray
      >> > on
      >>> > > what was thought to be a "reed organ", but now suspected to be an
      >> > accordion,
      >>> > > have been discussed recently on the Red Hot Jazz mailing list. The two
      >> > sides
      >>> > > included here are the Vocalion version missing from the EPM Hot and >>>
      Sweet
      >> > New
      >>> > > York Horns compilation, although that is probably now hard to get.
      >>> > >
      >>> > >
      >> >
      >> > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
      >> > howard@... <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk>
      >> <howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk>
      >> > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
      >> >
      >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >>
      >
      >
      > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
      > howard@...
      > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • yves francois
      Hello, Nick, Michael and all else concerned about Paul Davis CHAMPION 40038     I just purchased Frog Spawn, and will have more  to say in the next day or
      Message 2 of 16 , Nov 19, 2009
        Hello, Nick, Michael and all else concerned about Paul Davis CHAMPION 40038     I just purchased Frog Spawn, and will have more  to say in the next day or so, but in the meantime, I see mention in the liner notes about Paul Davis. I agree with the liner notes that it sounds like a black band (the names were usually pseudonymous probably to save money, or have an "anglo" name to sell the record better). The name "Paul Davis" was used on a variety of records on the Champion label - much as certain names were used on ARC etc. I have an interesting theory here regarding this recording (matrix# 18910, you will see why I am taking about matrix # here in a second), when I look for what band a pseudonymous (this is probably just that considering Champion's track record with that name) issue on a record, I look at the matrix numbers, and then play the record you have next to it (easier said than done here!). Well I do not have Champion matrix # 18911, but
        look what it is ...
        Jimmy Raschel and His orchestrano dertails except Jimmy Raschel, Estelle Galloway vocalRichmond Indiana November 28 193218911 It Don't Mean A Thing (If It Ain't Got That Swing) (eg vcl) CHAMPION 1653418912 Nobody's sweetheart (jr vcl) (unissued)
        It is too bad this record is phenomenally rare, it would be instructive to compare it. Think about it - 2 matrix numbers recorded (or mastered) within 3 days of each other, a known black band in Jimmy Raschel (Raschel's bands - territory band Detroit - included such alumni as George Johnson, Henry Savage, Milt Buckner, Bernie Peacock and Howard McGhee over a 17 year period of time), and one that sounds pretty much like a black territory band of that part of the country in the early 1930's - makes one wonder - any one who does own Champion 16534 please check on this (while we are at it were there any references to Raschel by the Argentine guitarist bandleader Ahmed Ratip - who was in detroit in the early middle 1930's?) - too bad I don't have that one, or else I would have. more soon and all the bestYves Francois
        PS Nick wonderful work on the remastering on this CD - I have to admit the "Jackson's Southern Stompers" Marathon 227 never sounded better - but that is another story I will continue tomorrow from last week (and surprised no one was interested in the gentleman's response - esp 1933 broadcasts of the Johnson band!!)


        --- On Fri, 9/11/09, Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...> wrote:

        From: Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...>
        Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Frog Spawn - a first opinion
        To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Friday, September 11, 2009, 1:57 PM













         





        Firstly, many thanks to Michael for his in-depth review. As Howard correctly

        surmised, the Paul Davis transfer was taken from Champion 40038.



        And Michael is also correct in his belief that there is another take of the

        Dixie Stompers' "Jackass Blues" which has still not made it onto CD.



        Nick



        2009/9/11 Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@ web.de>



        >

        >

        > > No dissent, but, two supplementary questions.

        >

        > I can only adress one:

        > >

        > > Has anyone ever heard the other Paul Davis (Underneath The Harlem

        > > Moon)? I

        > > assume Frog only have access to the reissue on Champion 40038 or they

        > > would

        > > have issued the original reverse. As nothing whatever is known about

        > > this

        > > band any notion about them is merely a vagrant assumption. On Gennett

        > > labels

        > > issue numbers provide no clue to the intended market, not that that is

        > > conclusive anyway.

        >

        >

        >

        > Nick might be able to answer this, depending what Frog gave him to work on.

        > The previous reissue on Harrison B gives Champion 16524 as its source, but

        > refrains from including the other side, for whatever reason. 78 Quarterly

        > (under?) estimates 3 known copies, so someone must know the side.

        >

        > Michael Rader



















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      • Nick Dellow
        Yves, thank you for your kind words, which are very much appreciated. I also do not possess matrix #18911, more s the pity. It would be good to work out who
        Message 3 of 16 , Nov 20, 2009
          Yves, thank you for your kind words, which are very much appreciated. I also
          do not possess matrix #18911, more's the pity. It would be good to work out
          who this particular "Paul Davis" was!


          2009/11/20 yves francois <aprestitine@...>

          >
          >
          > Hello, Nick, Michael and all else concerned about Paul Davis CHAMPION
          > 40038 I just purchased Frog Spawn, and will have more to say in the
          > next day or so, but in the meantime, I see mention in the liner notes about
          > Paul Davis. I agree with the liner notes that it sounds like a black band
          > (the names were usually pseudonymous probably to save money, or have an
          > "anglo" name to sell the record better). The name "Paul Davis" was used on a
          > variety of records on the Champion label - much as certain names were used
          > on ARC etc. I have an interesting theory here regarding this recording
          > (matrix# 18910, you will see why I am taking about matrix # here in a
          > second), when I look for what band a pseudonymous (this is probably just
          > that considering Champion's track record with that name) issue on a record,
          > I look at the matrix numbers, and then play the record you have next to it
          > (easier said than done here!). Well I do not have Champion matrix # 18911,
          > but
          > look what it is ...
          > Jimmy Raschel and His orchestrano dertails except Jimmy Raschel, Estelle
          > Galloway vocalRichmond Indiana November 28 193218911 It Don't Mean A Thing
          > (If It Ain't Got That Swing) (eg vcl) CHAMPION 1653418912 Nobody's
          > sweetheart (jr vcl) (unissued)
          > It is too bad this record is phenomenally rare, it would be instructive to
          > compare it. Think about it - 2 matrix numbers recorded (or mastered) within
          > 3 days of each other, a known black band in Jimmy Raschel (Raschel's bands -
          > territory band Detroit - included such alumni as George Johnson, Henry
          > Savage, Milt Buckner, Bernie Peacock and Howard McGhee over a 17 year period
          > of time), and one that sounds pretty much like a black territory band of
          > that part of the country in the early 1930's - makes one wonder - any one
          > who does own Champion 16534 please check on this (while we are at it were
          > there any references to Raschel by the Argentine guitarist bandleader Ahmed
          > Ratip - who was in detroit in the early middle 1930's?) - too bad I don't
          > have that one, or else I would have. more soon and all the bestYves Francois
          > PS Nick wonderful work on the remastering on this CD - I have to admit the
          > "Jackson's Southern Stompers" Marathon 227 never sounded better - but that
          > is another story I will continue tomorrow from last week (and surprised no
          > one was interested in the gentleman's response - esp 1933 broadcasts of the
          > Johnson band!!)
          >
          > --- On Fri, 9/11/09, Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...<nick.dellow%40gmail.com>>
          > wrote:
          >
          > From: Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@... <nick.dellow%40gmail.com>>
          > Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Frog Spawn - a first opinion
          > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
          > Date: Friday, September 11, 2009, 1:57 PM
          >
          >
          >
          > Firstly, many thanks to Michael for his in-depth review. As Howard
          > correctly
          >
          > surmised, the Paul Davis transfer was taken from Champion 40038.
          >
          > And Michael is also correct in his belief that there is another take of the
          >
          > Dixie Stompers' "Jackass Blues" which has still not made it onto CD.
          >
          > Nick
          >
          > 2009/9/11 Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@ web.de>
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > No dissent, but, two supplementary questions.
          >
          > >
          >
          > > I can only adress one:
          >
          > > >
          >
          > > > Has anyone ever heard the other Paul Davis (Underneath The Harlem
          >
          > > > Moon)? I
          >
          > > > assume Frog only have access to the reissue on Champion 40038 or they
          >
          > > > would
          >
          > > > have issued the original reverse. As nothing whatever is known about
          >
          > > > this
          >
          > > > band any notion about them is merely a vagrant assumption. On Gennett
          >
          > > > labels
          >
          > > > issue numbers provide no clue to the intended market, not that that is
          >
          > > > conclusive anyway.
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > Nick might be able to answer this, depending what Frog gave him to work
          > on.
          >
          > > The previous reissue on Harrison B gives Champion 16524 as its source,
          > but
          >
          > > refrains from including the other side, for whatever reason. 78 Quarterly
          >
          > > (under?) estimates 3 known copies, so someone must know the side.
          >
          > >
          >
          > > Michael Rader
          >
          >
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        • Bob Eagle
          FWIW, Jimmy Raschel s given name was James E. Rachels (sic), the son of a physician. His brother, Arthur W. Rachels, 2 years Jimmy s junior, was also a
          Message 4 of 16 , Nov 20, 2009
            FWIW, Jimmy Raschel's given name was James E. Rachels (sic), the son of a physician. His brother, Arthur W. Rachels, 2 years Jimmy's junior, was also a musician. Rachels is the consistent spelling in official records.

            Jimmy was born at Mexico, Audrain County, Missouri in 1910, but the family had moved to Danville, Vermilion County, Illinois by 1916 and were still there in 1930. Raschel was later active in Detroit.

            Bob

            --- On Sat, 21/11/09, Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...> wrote:

            > From: Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...>
            > Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Frog Spawn - a first opinion RE: PAUL DAVIS matrix# 18910 .. and matrix #18911
            > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
            > Received: Saturday, 21 November, 2009, 4:10 AM
            > Yves, thank you for your kind words,
            > which are very much appreciated. I also
            > do not possess matrix #18911, more's the pity. It would be
            > good to work out
            > who this particular "Paul Davis" was!
            >
            >
            > 2009/11/20 yves francois <aprestitine@...>
            >
            > >
            > >
            > > Hello, Nick, Michael and all else concerned about Paul
            > Davis CHAMPION
            > > 40038     I just purchased Frog
            > Spawn, and will have more  to say in the
            > > next day or so, but in the meantime, I see mention in
            > the liner notes about
            > > Paul Davis. I agree with the liner notes that it
            > sounds like a black band
            > > (the names were usually pseudonymous probably to save
            > money, or have an
            > > "anglo" name to sell the record better). The name
            > "Paul Davis" was used on a
            > > variety of records on the Champion label - much as
            > certain names were used
            > > on ARC etc. I have an interesting theory here
            > regarding this recording
            > > (matrix# 18910, you will see why I am taking about
            > matrix # here in a
            > > second), when I look for what band a pseudonymous
            > (this is probably just
            > > that considering Champion's track record with that
            > name) issue on a record,
            > > I look at the matrix numbers, and then play the record
            > you have next to it
            > > (easier said than done here!). Well I do not have
            > Champion matrix # 18911,
            > > but
            > > look what it is ...
            > > Jimmy Raschel and His orchestrano dertails except
            > Jimmy Raschel, Estelle
            > > Galloway vocalRichmond Indiana November 28 193218911
            > It Don't Mean A Thing
            > > (If It Ain't Got That Swing) (eg vcl) CHAMPION
            > 1653418912 Nobody's
            > > sweetheart (jr vcl) (unissued)
            > > It is too bad this record is phenomenally rare, it
            > would be instructive to
            > > compare it. Think about it - 2 matrix numbers recorded
            > (or mastered) within
            > > 3 days of each other, a known black band in Jimmy
            > Raschel (Raschel's bands -
            > > territory band Detroit - included such alumni as
            > George Johnson, Henry
            > > Savage, Milt Buckner, Bernie Peacock and Howard McGhee
            > over a 17 year period
            > > of time), and one that sounds pretty much like a black
            > territory band of
            > > that part of the country in the early 1930's - makes
            > one wonder - any one
            > > who does own Champion 16534 please check on this
            > (while we are at it were
            > > there any references to Raschel by the Argentine
            > guitarist bandleader Ahmed
            > > Ratip - who was in detroit in the early middle
            > 1930's?) - too bad I don't
            > > have that one, or else I would have. more soon and all
            > the bestYves Francois
            > > PS Nick wonderful work on the remastering on this CD -
            > I have to admit the
            > > "Jackson's Southern Stompers" Marathon 227 never
            > sounded better - but that
            > > is another story I will continue tomorrow from last
            > week (and surprised no
            > > one was interested in the gentleman's response - esp
            > 1933 broadcasts of the
            > > Johnson band!!)
            > >
            > > --- On Fri, 9/11/09, Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...<nick.dellow%40gmail.com>>
            > > wrote:
            > >
            > > From: Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...
            > <nick.dellow%40gmail.com>>
            > > Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Frog Spawn - a first
            > opinion
            > > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
            > <RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > Date: Friday, September 11, 2009, 1:57 PM
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Firstly, many thanks to Michael for his in-depth
            > review. As Howard
            > > correctly
            > >
            > > surmised, the Paul Davis transfer was taken from
            > Champion 40038.
            > >
            > > And Michael is also correct in his belief that there
            > is another take of the
            > >
            > > Dixie Stompers' "Jackass Blues" which has still not
            > made it onto CD.
            > >
            > > Nick
            > >
            > > 2009/9/11 Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@ web.de>
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > > > No dissent, but, two supplementary
            > questions.
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > > I can only adress one:
            > >
            > > > >
            > >
            > > > > Has anyone ever heard the other Paul Davis
            > (Underneath The Harlem
            > >
            > > > > Moon)? I
            > >
            > > > > assume Frog only have access to the reissue
            > on Champion 40038 or they
            > >
            > > > > would
            > >
            > > > > have issued the original reverse. As nothing
            > whatever is known about
            > >
            > > > > this
            > >
            > > > > band any notion about them is merely a
            > vagrant assumption. On Gennett
            > >
            > > > > labels
            > >
            > > > > issue numbers provide no clue to the
            > intended market, not that that is
            > >
            > > > > conclusive anyway.
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > > Nick might be able to answer this, depending what
            > Frog gave him to work
            > > on.
            > >
            > > > The previous reissue on Harrison B gives Champion
            > 16524 as its source,
            > > but
            > >
            > > > refrains from including the other side, for
            > whatever reason. 78 Quarterly
            > >
            > > > (under?) estimates 3 known copies, so someone
            > must know the side.
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > > Michael Rader
            > >
            > >
            > >
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          • Howard Rye
            I have now got hold of the Gennett ledger sheet relating to this session. It offers no support for the seductive notion that this may be the Jimmy Raschel band
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 24, 2010
              I have now got hold of the Gennett ledger sheet relating to this session.

              It offers no support for the seductive notion that this may be the Jimmy
              Raschel band under pseudonym. The Raschel masters are clearly marked ³Race²,
              the Davis masters are not. This is not absolutely conclusive because this is
              a marketing assignment not a cultural one. 99% of the time this will
              coincide but it is not a necessary relationship.

              What is apparently conclusive is the arrival of the first volume of Richard
              J. Johnson & Bernard Shirley¹s ³American Dance Bands on Records and Film
              1915-1942² (Fairplay, CO, Rustbooks, 2010). This reveals what no one has
              apparently ever bothered to mention before. This was Davis¹s first session
              and is the only one in Jazz Records. The band actually made thirteen more
              sessions for Gennett up to 29 July 1933, producing twenty-eight more issued
              titles. Nineteen of these were issued in a special series for use at skating
              rinks. Most of these are waltzes, so are many of the others though there is
              a version of Shuffle Off To Buffalo on Champion 16591.

              Not only that, but Johnson and Shirley have a personnel for the band from
              December 1931, which is nearly a year before Black & Tan.

              I think we have to accept that this is an amazingly idiomatic reading of an
              arrangement by a white territory band which usually spent its time in other
              areas of music entirely.

              Incidentally there is no doubt that the Jimmy Raschel band were
              African-Americans. These are not pseudonymous Davis items. I have several
              personnels of Raschel¹s band and they include known names like the great
              Chicago drummer Hillard Brown.

              It is not inconceivable that Davis might have hired the Raschel band to
              produce idimomatic versions of this material and issued it under the name of
              his own band, but there is no supporting evidence for this theory and what
              evidence there is is against it. To completely rule out skullduggery on
              somebody¹s part, we need to hear Davis¹s ŒUnderneath The Harlem Moon¹.
              Anyone seen it around?


              on 20/11/2009 01:09, yves francois at aprestitine@... wrote:

              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hello, Nick, Michael and all else concerned about Paul Davis CHAMPION 40038  
              >   I just purchased Frog Spawn, and will have more  to say in the next day or
              > so, but in the meantime, I see mention in the liner notes about Paul Davis. I
              > agree with the liner notes that it sounds like a black band (the names were
              > usually pseudonymous probably to save money, or have an "anglo" name to sell
              > the record better). The name "Paul Davis" was used on a variety of records on
              > the Champion label - much as certain names were used on ARC etc. I have an
              > interesting theory here regarding this recording (matrix# 18910, you will see
              > why I am taking about matrix # here in a second), when I look for what band a
              > pseudonymous (this is probably just that considering Champion's track record
              > with that name) issue on a record, I look at the matrix numbers, and then play
              > the record you have next to it (easier said than done here!). Well I do not
              > have Champion matrix # 18911, but
              > look what it is ...
              > Jimmy Raschel and His orchestrano dertails except Jimmy Raschel, Estelle
              > Galloway vocalRichmond Indiana November 28 193218911 It Don't Mean A Thing (If
              > It Ain't Got That Swing) (eg vcl) CHAMPION 1653418912 Nobody's sweetheart (jr
              > vcl) (unissued)
              > It is too bad this record is phenomenally rare, it would be instructive to
              > compare it. Think about it - 2 matrix numbers recorded (or mastered) within 3
              > days of each other, a known black band in Jimmy Raschel (Raschel's bands -
              > territory band Detroit - included such alumni as George Johnson, Henry Savage,
              > Milt Buckner, Bernie Peacock and Howard McGhee over a 17 year period of time),
              > and one that sounds pretty much like a black territory band of that part of
              > the country in the early 1930's - makes one wonder - any one who does own
              > Champion 16534 please check on this (while we are at it were there any
              > references to Raschel by the Argentine guitarist bandleader Ahmed Ratip - who
              > was in detroit in the early middle 1930's?) - too bad I don't have that one,
              > or else I would have. more soon and all the bestYves Francois
              > PS Nick wonderful work on the remastering on this CD - I have to admit the
              > "Jackson's Southern Stompers" Marathon 227 never sounded better - but that is
              > another story I will continue tomorrow from last week (and surprised no one
              > was interested in the gentleman's response - esp 1933 broadcasts of the
              > Johnson band!!)
              >
              > --- On Fri, 9/11/09, Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...
              > <mailto:nick.dellow%40gmail.com> > wrote:
              >
              > From: Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@... <mailto:nick.dellow%40gmail.com> >
              > Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Frog Spawn - a first opinion
              > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
              > Date: Friday, September 11, 2009, 1:57 PM
              >
              >  
              >
              > Firstly, many thanks to Michael for his in-depth review. As Howard correctly
              >
              > surmised, the Paul Davis transfer was taken from Champion 40038.
              >
              > And Michael is also correct in his belief that there is another take of the
              >
              > Dixie Stompers' "Jackass Blues" which has still not made it onto CD.
              >
              > Nick
              >
              > 2009/9/11 Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@ web.de>
              >
              >> >
              >
              >> >
              >
              >>> > > No dissent, but, two supplementary questions.
              >
              >> >
              >
              >> > I can only adress one:
              >
              >>> > >
              >
              >>> > > Has anyone ever heard the other Paul Davis (Underneath The Harlem
              >
              >>> > > Moon)? I
              >
              >>> > > assume Frog only have access to the reissue on Champion 40038 or they
              >
              >>> > > would
              >
              >>> > > have issued the original reverse. As nothing whatever is known about
              >
              >>> > > this
              >
              >>> > > band any notion about them is merely a vagrant assumption. On Gennett
              >
              >>> > > labels
              >
              >>> > > issue numbers provide no clue to the intended market, not that that is
              >
              >>> > > conclusive anyway.
              >
              >> >
              >
              >> >
              >
              >> >
              >
              >> > Nick might be able to answer this, depending what Frog gave him to work on.
              >
              >> > The previous reissue on Harrison B gives Champion 16524 as its source, but
              >
              >> > refrains from including the other side, for whatever reason. 78 Quarterly
              >
              >> > (under?) estimates 3 known copies, so someone must know the side.
              >
              >> >
              >
              >> > Michael Rader
              >
              >
              >
              > Recent Activity
              >
              >
              >  3
              > New Members
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Visit Your Group
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! News
              > Odd News
              > You won't believe
              > it, but it's true
              >
              > Share Photos
              > Put your favorite
              > photos and
              > more online.
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups
              > Small Business Group
              > Share experiences
              > with owners like you_._,___
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


              Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
              howard@...
              Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Howard Rye
              Sorry, Yves. Reviewing this I realize you did mention there were other sides on Champion by Paul Davis & His Orchestra, though they are not in the original
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 24, 2010
                Sorry, Yves.

                Reviewing this I realize you did mention there were other sides on Champion
                by Paul Davis & His Orchestra, though they are not in the original edition
                of the American Dance Band Discography.

                So the crucial piece of new information here is that this was a real
                bandleader and a real band, but I agree that it would not be the only
                instance of a bandleader¹s nme being borrowed for records with which he had
                only a nominal connection. I only know of this happening on New York labels.
                Do we know of any instances of it happening on Gennett?

                It¹s going off the point but at this time Jimmy Raschel¹s band was not out
                of Detroit, but out of Cincinnati, though some members including Raschel
                himself apparently belonged to the white AFM local at Benton Harbor,
                Michigan, which is weird beyond weird! As I have noted the Local number
                consistenty over several occurrences I doubt it¹s a typo but it would
                possibly bear re-checking. According to Albert McCarthy (quoting saxophonist
                George Johnson) the band was originally based at Danvillie, Illinois. My
                reference to Hillard Brown should be ignored. This is a misreading of
                Willard Brown who was a saxophonist. Didn¹t do too well with this one!


                on 24/02/2010 11:18, Howard Rye at howard@... wrote:

                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > I have now got hold of the Gennett ledger sheet relating to this session.
                >
                > It offers no support for the seductive notion that this may be the Jimmy
                > Raschel band under pseudonym. The Raschel masters are clearly marked ³Race²,
                > the Davis masters are not. This is not absolutely conclusive because this is
                > a marketing assignment not a cultural one. 99% of the time this will
                > coincide but it is not a necessary relationship.
                >
                > What is apparently conclusive is the arrival of the first volume of Richard
                > J. Johnson & Bernard Shirley¹s ³American Dance Bands on Records and Film
                > 1915-1942² (Fairplay, CO, Rustbooks, 2010). This reveals what no one has
                > apparently ever bothered to mention before. This was Davis¹s first session
                > and is the only one in Jazz Records. The band actually made thirteen more
                > sessions for Gennett up to 29 July 1933, producing twenty-eight more issued
                > titles. Nineteen of these were issued in a special series for use at skating
                > rinks. Most of these are waltzes, so are many of the others though there is
                > a version of Shuffle Off To Buffalo on Champion 16591.
                >
                > Not only that, but Johnson and Shirley have a personnel for the band from
                > December 1931, which is nearly a year before Black & Tan.
                >
                > I think we have to accept that this is an amazingly idiomatic reading of an
                > arrangement by a white territory band which usually spent its time in other
                > areas of music entirely.
                >
                > Incidentally there is no doubt that the Jimmy Raschel band were
                > African-Americans. These are not pseudonymous Davis items. I have several
                > personnels of Raschel¹s band and they include known names like the great
                > Chicago drummer Hillard Brown.
                >
                > It is not inconceivable that Davis might have hired the Raschel band to
                > produce idimomatic versions of this material and issued it under the name of
                > his own band, but there is no supporting evidence for this theory and what
                > evidence there is is against it. To completely rule out skullduggery on
                > somebody¹s part, we need to hear Davis¹s ŒUnderneath The Harlem Moon¹.
                > Anyone seen it around?
                >
                > on 20/11/2009 01:09, yves francois at aprestitine@...
                > <mailto:aprestitine%40yahoo.com> wrote:
                >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> > Hello, Nick, Michael and all else concerned about Paul Davis CHAMPION
                >> 40038  
                >> >   I just purchased Frog Spawn, and will have more  to say in the next day
                >> or
                >> > so, but in the meantime, I see mention in the liner notes about Paul Davis.
                I
                >> > agree with the liner notes that it sounds like a black band (the names were
                >> > usually pseudonymous probably to save money, or have an "anglo" name to
                >> sell
                >> > the record better). The name "Paul Davis" was used on a variety of records
                >> on
                >> > the Champion label - much as certain names were used on ARC etc. I have an
                >> > interesting theory here regarding this recording (matrix# 18910, you will
                >> see
                >> > why I am taking about matrix # here in a second), when I look for what band
                a
                >> > pseudonymous (this is probably just that considering Champion's track
                >> record
                >> > with that name) issue on a record, I look at the matrix numbers, and then
                >> play
                >> > the record you have next to it (easier said than done here!). Well I do not
                >> > have Champion matrix # 18911, but
                >> > look what it is ...
                >> > Jimmy Raschel and His orchestrano dertails except Jimmy Raschel, Estelle
                >> > Galloway vocalRichmond Indiana November 28 193218911 It Don't Mean A Thing
                >> (If
                >> > It Ain't Got That Swing) (eg vcl) CHAMPION 1653418912 Nobody's sweetheart
                >> (jr
                >> > vcl) (unissued)
                >> > It is too bad this record is phenomenally rare, it would be instructive to
                >> > compare it. Think about it - 2 matrix numbers recorded (or mastered) within
                3
                >> > days of each other, a known black band in Jimmy Raschel (Raschel's bands -
                >> > territory band Detroit - included such alumni as George Johnson, Henry
                >> Savage,
                >> > Milt Buckner, Bernie Peacock and Howard McGhee over a 17 year period of
                >> time),
                >> > and one that sounds pretty much like a black territory band of that part of
                >> > the country in the early 1930's - makes one wonder - any one who does own
                >> > Champion 16534 please check on this (while we are at it were there any
                >> > references to Raschel by the Argentine guitarist bandleader Ahmed Ratip -
                >> who
                >> > was in detroit in the early middle 1930's?) - too bad I don't have that
                >> one,
                >> > or else I would have. more soon and all the bestYves Francois
                >> > PS Nick wonderful work on the remastering on this CD - I have to admit the
                >> > "Jackson's Southern Stompers" Marathon 227 never sounded better - but that
                >> is
                >> > another story I will continue tomorrow from last week (and surprised no one
                >> > was interested in the gentleman's response - esp 1933 broadcasts of the
                >> > Johnson band!!)
                >> >
                >> > --- On Fri, 9/11/09, Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...
                >> <mailto:nick.dellow%40gmail.com>
                >> > <mailto:nick.dellow%40gmail.com> > wrote:
                >> >
                >> > From: Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@... <mailto:nick.dellow%40gmail.com>
                >> <mailto:nick.dellow%40gmail.com> >
                >> > Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Frog Spawn - a first opinion
                >> > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                >> <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                >> > Date: Friday, September 11, 2009, 1:57 PM
                >> >
                >> >  
                >> >
                >> > Firstly, many thanks to Michael for his in-depth review. As Howard
                >> correctly
                >> >
                >> > surmised, the Paul Davis transfer was taken from Champion 40038.
                >> >
                >> > And Michael is also correct in his belief that there is another take of the
                >> >
                >> > Dixie Stompers' "Jackass Blues" which has still not made it onto CD.
                >> >
                >> > Nick
                >> >
                >> > 2009/9/11 Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@ web.de>
                >> >
                >>>> >> >
                >> >
                >>>> >> >
                >> >
                >>>>>> >>> > > No dissent, but, two supplementary questions.
                >> >
                >>>> >> >
                >> >
                >>>> >> > I can only adress one:
                >> >
                >>>>>> >>> > >
                >> >
                >>>>>> >>> > > Has anyone ever heard the other Paul Davis (Underneath The Harlem
                >> >
                >>>>>> >>> > > Moon)? I
                >> >
                >>>>>> >>> > > assume Frog only have access to the reissue on Champion 40038 or
                they
                >> >
                >>>>>> >>> > > would
                >> >
                >>>>>> >>> > > have issued the original reverse. As nothing whatever is known
                about
                >> >
                >>>>>> >>> > > this
                >> >
                >>>>>> >>> > > band any notion about them is merely a vagrant assumption. On
                Gennett
                >> >
                >>>>>> >>> > > labels
                >> >
                >>>>>> >>> > > issue numbers provide no clue to the intended market, not that
                that is
                >> >
                >>>>>> >>> > > conclusive anyway.
                >> >
                >>>> >> >
                >> >
                >>>> >> >
                >> >
                >>>> >> >
                >> >
                >>>> >> > Nick might be able to answer this, depending what Frog gave him to
                >>>> work on.
                >> >
                >>>> >> > The previous reissue on Harrison B gives Champion 16524 as its source,
                but
                >> >
                >>>> >> > refrains from including the other side, for whatever reason. 78
                >>>> Quarterly
                >> >
                >>>> >> > (under?) estimates 3 known copies, so someone must know the side.
                >> >
                >>>> >> >
                >> >
                >>>> >> > Michael Rader
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> > Recent Activity
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >  3
                >> > New Members
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> > Visit Your Group
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> > Yahoo! News
                >> > Odd News
                >> > You won't believe
                >> > it, but it's true
                >> >
                >> > Share Photos
                >> > Put your favorite
                >> > photos and
                >> > more online.
                >> >
                >> > Yahoo! Groups
                >> > Small Business Group
                >> > Share experiences
                >> > with owners like you_._,___
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >
                > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                > howard@... <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk>
                > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >


                Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                howard@...
                Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Bob Eagle
                I have a sense of deja vu about this, so my apologies if it has been posted in the past.  Raschel s real name was Rachels.  He seems to have been born in
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 24, 2010
                  I have a sense of deja vu about this, so my apologies if it has been posted in the past. 

                  Raschel's real name was Rachels.  He seems to have been born in 1910 in Mexico, Missouri, but by 1918 the family was at Danville, Illinois, and they were still there in 1930.  Jimmy's brother, Arthur W. Rachels, was also a musician.  Their father was a physician and surgeon.  And the family was shown as Mu (mulatto) in 1910, B (black) in 1920 and Neg (Negro) in 1930 - despite the mother being Ivory!

                  Bob



                  ________________________________
                  From: Howard Rye <howard@...>
                  To: red hot jazz <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thu, 25 February, 2010 2:24:44 AM
                  Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Frog Spawn RE: PAUL DAVIS matrix# 18910 Apologies

                   
                  Sorry, Yves.

                  Reviewing this I realize you did mention there were other sides on Champion
                  by Paul Davis & His Orchestra, though they are not in the original edition
                  of the American Dance Band Discography.

                  So the crucial piece of new information here is that this was a real
                  bandleader and a real band, but I agree that it would not be the only
                  instance of a bandleader¹s nme being borrowed for records with which he had
                  only a nominal connection. I only know of this happening on New York labels.
                  Do we know of any instances of it happening on Gennett?

                  It¹s going off the point but at this time Jimmy Raschel¹s band was not out
                  of Detroit, but out of Cincinnati, though some members including Raschel
                  himself apparently belonged to the white AFM local at Benton Harbor,
                  Michigan, which is weird beyond weird! As I have noted the Local number
                  consistenty over several occurrences I doubt it¹s a typo but it would
                  possibly bear re-checking. According to Albert McCarthy (quoting saxophonist
                  George Johnson) the band was originally based at Danvillie, Illinois. My
                  reference to Hillard Brown should be ignored. This is a misreading of
                  Willard Brown who was a saxophonist. Didn¹t do too well with this one!

                  on 24/02/2010 11:18, Howard Rye at howard@coppermill. demon.co. uk wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I have now got hold of the Gennett ledger sheet relating to this session.
                  >
                  > It offers no support for the seductive notion that this may be the Jimmy
                  > Raschel band under pseudonym. The Raschel masters are clearly marked ³Race²,
                  > the Davis masters are not. This is not absolutely conclusive because this is
                  > a marketing assignment not a cultural one. 99% of the time this will
                  > coincide but it is not a necessary relationship.
                  >
                  > What is apparently conclusive is the arrival of the first volume of Richard
                  > J. Johnson & Bernard Shirley¹s ³American Dance Bands on Records and Film
                  > 1915-1942² (Fairplay, CO, Rustbooks, 2010). This reveals what no one has
                  > apparently ever bothered to mention before. This was Davis¹s first session
                  > and is the only one in Jazz Records. The band actually made thirteen more
                  > sessions for Gennett up to 29 July 1933, producing twenty-eight more issued
                  > titles. Nineteen of these were issued in a special series for use at skating
                  > rinks. Most of these are waltzes, so are many of the others though there is
                  > a version of Shuffle Off To Buffalo on Champion 16591.
                  >
                  > Not only that, but Johnson and Shirley have a personnel for the band from
                  > December 1931, which is nearly a year before Black & Tan.
                  >
                  > I think we have to accept that this is an amazingly idiomatic reading of an
                  > arrangement by a white territory band which usually spent its time in other
                  > areas of music entirely.
                  >
                  > Incidentally there is no doubt that the Jimmy Raschel band were
                  > African-Americans. These are not pseudonymous Davis items. I have several
                  > personnels of Raschel¹s band and they include known names like the great
                  > Chicago drummer Hillard Brown.
                  >
                  > It is not inconceivable that Davis might have hired the Raschel band to
                  > produce idimomatic versions of this material and issued it under the name of
                  > his own band, but there is no supporting evidence for this theory and what
                  > evidence there is is against it. To completely rule out skullduggery on
                  > somebody¹s part, we need to hear Davis¹s ŒUnderneath The Harlem Moon¹.
                  > Anyone seen it around?
                  >
                  > on 20/11/2009 01:09, yves francois at aprestitine@ yahoo.com
                  > <mailto:aprestitine %40yahoo. com> wrote:
                  >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> > Hello, Nick, Michael and all else concerned about Paul Davis CHAMPION
                  >> 40038  
                  >> >   I just purchased Frog Spawn, and will have more  to say in the next day
                  >> or
                  >> > so, but in the meantime, I see mention in the liner notes about Paul Davis.
                  I
                  >> > agree with the liner notes that it sounds like a black band (the names were
                  >> > usually pseudonymous probably to save money, or have an "anglo" name to
                  >> sell
                  >> > the record better). The name "Paul Davis" was used on a variety of records
                  >> on
                  >> > the Champion label - much as certain names were used on ARC etc. I have an
                  >> > interesting theory here regarding this recording (matrix# 18910, you will
                  >> see
                  >> > why I am taking about matrix # here in a second), when I look for what band
                  a
                  >> > pseudonymous (this is probably just that considering Champion's track
                  >> record
                  >> > with that name) issue on a record, I look at the matrix numbers, and then
                  >> play
                  >> > the record you have next to it (easier said than done here!). Well I do not
                  >> > have Champion matrix # 18911, but
                  >> > look what it is ...
                  >> > Jimmy Raschel and His orchestrano dertails except Jimmy Raschel, Estelle
                  >> > Galloway vocalRichmond Indiana November 28 193218911 It Don't Mean A Thing
                  >> (If
                  >> > It Ain't Got That Swing) (eg vcl) CHAMPION 1653418912 Nobody's sweetheart
                  >> (jr
                  >> > vcl) (unissued)
                  >> > It is too bad this record is phenomenally rare, it would be instructive to
                  >> > compare it. Think about it - 2 matrix numbers recorded (or mastered) within
                  3
                  >> > days of each other, a known black band in Jimmy Raschel (Raschel's bands -
                  >> > territory band Detroit - included such alumni as George Johnson, Henry
                  >> Savage,
                  >> > Milt Buckner, Bernie Peacock and Howard McGhee over a 17 year period of
                  >> time),
                  >> > and one that sounds pretty much like a black territory band of that part of
                  >> > the country in the early 1930's - makes one wonder - any one who does own
                  >> > Champion 16534 please check on this (while we are at it were there any
                  >> > references to Raschel by the Argentine guitarist bandleader Ahmed Ratip -
                  >> who
                  >> > was in detroit in the early middle 1930's?) - too bad I don't have that
                  >> one,
                  >> > or else I would have. more soon and all the bestYves Francois
                  >> > PS Nick wonderful work on the remastering on this CD - I have to admit the
                  >> > "Jackson's Southern Stompers" Marathon 227 never sounded better - but that
                  >> is
                  >> > another story I will continue tomorrow from last week (and surprised no one
                  >> > was interested in the gentleman's response - esp 1933 broadcasts of the
                  >> > Johnson band!!)
                  >> >
                  >> > --- On Fri, 9/11/09, Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@ gmail.com
                  >> <mailto:nick. dellow%40gmail. com>
                  >> > <mailto:nick. dellow%40gmail. com> > wrote:
                  >> >
                  >> > From: Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@ gmail.com <mailto:nick. dellow%40gmail. com>
                  >> <mailto:nick. dellow%40gmail. com> >
                  >> > Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Frog Spawn - a first opinion
                  >> > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogro ups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz% 40yahoogroups. com>
                  >> <mailto:RedHotJazz% 40yahoogroups. com>
                  >> > Date: Friday, September 11, 2009, 1:57 PM
                  >> >
                  >> >  
                  >> >
                  >> > Firstly, many thanks to Michael for his in-depth review. As Howard
                  >> correctly
                  >> >
                  >> > surmised, the Paul Davis transfer was taken from Champion 40038.
                  >> >
                  >> > And Michael is also correct in his belief that there is another take of the
                  >> >
                  >> > Dixie Stompers' "Jackass Blues" which has still not made it onto CD.
                  >> >
                  >> > Nick
                  >> >
                  >> > 2009/9/11 Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@ web.de>
                  >> >
                  >>>> >> >
                  >> >
                  >>>> >> >
                  >> >
                  >>>>>> >>> > > No dissent, but, two supplementary questions.
                  >> >
                  >>>> >> >
                  >> >
                  >>>> >> > I can only adress one:
                  >> >
                  >>>>>> >>> > >
                  >> >
                  >>>>>> >>> > > Has anyone ever heard the other Paul Davis (Underneath The Harlem
                  >> >
                  >>>>>> >>> > > Moon)? I
                  >> >
                  >>>>>> >>> > > assume Frog only have access to the reissue on Champion 40038 or
                  they
                  >> >
                  >>>>>> >>> > > would
                  >> >
                  >>>>>> >>> > > have issued the original reverse. As nothing whatever is known
                  about
                  >> >
                  >>>>>> >>> > > this
                  >> >
                  >>>>>> >>> > > band any notion about them is merely a vagrant assumption. On
                  Gennett
                  >> >
                  >>>>>> >>> > > labels
                  >> >
                  >>>>>> >>> > > issue numbers provide no clue to the intended market, not that
                  that is
                  >> >
                  >>>>>> >>> > > conclusive anyway.
                  >> >
                  >>>> >> >
                  >> >
                  >>>> >> >
                  >> >
                  >>>> >> >
                  >> >
                  >>>> >> > Nick might be able to answer this, depending what Frog gave him to
                  >>>> work on.
                  >> >
                  >>>> >> > The previous reissue on Harrison B gives Champion 16524 as its source,
                  but
                  >> >
                  >>>> >> > refrains from including the other side, for whatever reason. 78
                  >>>> Quarterly
                  >> >
                  >>>> >> > (under?) estimates 3 known copies, so someone must know the side.
                  >> >
                  >>>> >> >
                  >> >
                  >>>> >> > Michael Rader
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> > Recent Activity
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >  3
                  >> > New Members
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> > Visit Your Group
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> > Yahoo! News
                  >> > Odd News
                  >> > You won't believe
                  >> > it, but it's true
                  >> >
                  >> > Share Photos
                  >> > Put your favorite
                  >> > photos and
                  >> > more online.
                  >> >
                  >> > Yahoo! Groups
                  >> > Small Business Group
                  >> > Share experiences
                  >> > with owners like you_._,___
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >
                  > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                  > howard@coppermill. demon.co. uk <mailto:howard% 40coppermill. demon.co. uk>
                  > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                  howard@coppermill. demon.co. uk
                  Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098

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