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Frog Spawn - a first opinion

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  • armstark2000
    Yesterday, I received my copy of the latest Frog release, DGF 71, Frog Spawn - the First Batch . My first opinion is contained below. Just in case, I d like
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 11, 2009
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      Yesterday, I received my copy of the latest Frog release, DGF 71, "Frog Spawn - the First Batch". My first opinion is contained below. Just in case, I'd like to point out that I have no interest in Frog apart from their continued existence to provide us with quality reissues.

      Michael Rader

      There are collectors who very much dislike multiple-artist compilations, especially when they unite artists as disparate as Dicky Wells' Shim Shammers and Matson's Lucky Seven as Frog 71 does. In fact the Penguin Guide by Messrs. Morton and Cook leaves them out altogether.
      This issue is headlined "Frog Spawn – the First Batch" (try saying that out aloud and you will see that it has hidden sales potential among buyers hoping to find clandestinely included graphics files, known as "Easter Eggs" in the earlier days of CD technology). While other Frog CDs have been compilations they were tied together by a common theme, mainly geographical provenance, but the Frog Spawn series are conceived to complement existing "complete" works, fill in gaps left by other CDs or to provide a home for orphaned sessions which do not fit sensibly into other, more consistent, compilations.
      That said, this is a very entertaining program in its own right, much like a listening session among collectors displaying their rarities or a radio show, reminiscent of 1970s LPs on the Historical, Harrison and Jazum labels. In fact, some of the one-off sides saw their first reissue on such labels: the William (Buster) Bailey trio (one side on a Historical LP of Hot Clarinets), Matson's Lucky Seven (first a Rarities EP, then on a Gannet LP), the Blue Rhythm Orchestra (a VJM LP of Clarence Williams odds and ends). The Bailey and Blue Rhythm Orchestra –which has Bailey as clarinettist – also made it onto CD, dubbed from the LPs for 4 out of 5 tracks, and in abysmal audio quality – the Baileys on Chronological Classics, which additionally had the problem of combining these mid-1920s sides with swing-era recordings with what was to evolve into the John Kirby Sextet.
      In the category of gap-fillers for otherwise complete chronological surveys, we find the missing Oliver Victors, the Earl Hines 1929 "Beau Koo Jack", Tom Morris "The Mess" and tests of three Eubie Blake Victors in alternative versions completing Frog CDs. Two sides by Fletcher Henderson, a very hot "Clarinet Marmalade" featuring solo work by Tom Ladnier and Buster Bailey, and the Dixie Stompers' "Hi Diddle Diddle" add to comprehensive reissues on Timeless. I believe that there is another take of the Dixie Stompers' "Jackass Blues" which has still not made it onto CD, although it was reissued on a Parlophone LP – material for another batch of Spawn?
      This kind of material is bound to please collectors familiar with the more common versions of these sides for the differences, which in some cases are quite subtle, but in others like the Henderson "Marmalade", quite noticeable
      The Texas Blues Destroyers, comprising only Bubber Miley and Arthur Ray on what was thought to be a "reed organ", but now suspected to be an accordion, have been discussed recently on the Red Hot Jazz mailing list. The two sides included here are the Vocalion version missing from the EPM Hot and Sweet New York Horns compilation, although that is probably now hard to get. The Paul Davis "Black and Tan Fantasy" falls into the "sleeper" category and has had a previous reissue on a Harrison LP. Booklet note writer Richard Rains points out that it is uncertain whether this was, as usually thought, a white band.
      A prize of this CD is an alternative version of Frankie Franko's "Golden Lily Blues", which features the trumpet and singing of Punch Miller who recorded all too seldom during the twenties. Surprisingly, the Frankos never made it onto EP during the era when there were series issued by the major labels.
      The remaining sides all saw previous reissue in some form or another. As I've mentioned before, one of the Buster Baileys was reissued on a Historical LP and must have left many people wondering about its session mate. When it made it onto the Chronological Classics CD, it was in really terrible sound quality. On my sole visit to Frog's late owner, David French, I asked him to play the record for me and was so impressed that I asked for its reissue. David would have been willing to oblige, but didn't know what else to put with it. He later sent me a cassette dub which I treasured and even transferred to CD, but now we at last have it on CD and in wonderful sound.
      Matson's Lucky Seven are part of the small output of Charles Matson, so we can ask why it has been included here instead of an issue devoted at least partly to Matson. At a guess, I would think the others are foreseen for a forthcoming Frog release devoted to cornetist Bernie Young. The personnel on the Lucky Seven is largely unidentified – probably they include several New York musicians who visited the studios more than once. The Troy Harmonists and Jackson & his Southern Stompers were previously on a GAPS LP devoted to 1920s big bands. The Jackson is almost certainly by the Charlie Johnson Orchestra of the period with such luminaries as Sidney de Paris, Jimmy Harrison and Benny Waters in attendance. It comes from a 7 inch recording not known to exist before a box containing 12 mint copies was discovered in Paris. Despite the 7 inch format these are full-length recordings on a par with the remainder of Johnson's output.
      Finally, Dicky Wells' Shim Shammers have nothing whatever to do with the trombonist, but are a kind of "spasm" group, recorded some time after the rest of the items on the CD. Reissued in the past as part of a box set on Columbia/CBS, these start off sounding rather like a late twenties/early thirties Ellington number interpreted by a washboard band with strong string bass and a guitar solo reminiscent of Lonnie Johnson or Teddy Bunn. A "nice tune" and the only one out of six recordings made at a session to see the light of day. Another case of "what else to put with it" which is partly a result of post LP-era thinking – the original recordings were, of course, bought one at a time and also seldom heard in complete chronological sequence.
      In common with other recent Frog CDs, these have been restored by RHJ list member Nick Dellow. CD producers have in recent years been worried by the void left through John R.T. Davies' passing. Like its Canadian contemporary; Jazz Oracle, Frog called in John's favourite pupil, Ted Kendall to do restoration work. More recently, Ted, who also works on improving CEDAR technology, has come in for criticism for deviating from John RT's ideals – in particular introducing a clinical digital sound with attendant destruction of "air", which was all-important to John. A direct comparison of the same tracks restored by John and Ted does indeed show that Ted has not always been able to improve on John's work, admirable as his efforts may be on their own merits.
      Nick first came to my attention with his two-part interview of John in VJM. The first restoration effort I bought was a Retrieval CD by Danny Polo, which was fine indeed, but draws on better-recorded 1930s material which is also probably closer to his own interests than, say, Chicago South Side Music from gritty originals. His earliest work for Frog was the CD by the Missourians and related groups and the quality is best appreciated on the earlier sides. The "King Mutt" issue had me a little worried due to strange noises in the background of certain passages (maybe the mandolin, but then I'm not familiar with the originals), but I am pleased to report that Nick has worked very well and fully in John RT's spirit with the numbers included in Frog Spawn – the First Batch.
      The time will probably come when you can buy these a track at a time from Amazon, but the current asking price of ten pounds is only a fraction of what it would cost to obtain only a single record included in the CD. By purchasing the CD, you will be helping Frog to produce further high-quality issues of rare material that hasn't been restored since the days of the LP or has never been heard except by a select handful of collectors.
    • Howard Rye
      No dissent, but, two supplementary questions. Is ³Baby, Are You Satisfied² by Dickie Wells¹ Shim Shammers the only reference to birth control in vintage
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 11, 2009
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        No dissent, but, two supplementary questions.

        Is ³Baby, Are You Satisfied² by Dickie Wells¹ Shim Shammers the only
        reference to birth control in vintage jazz and blues (as Richard Spottswood
        suggested in his notes to a previous reissue on Dust To Digital)?

        Has anyone ever heard the other Paul Davis (Underneath The Harlem Moon)? I
        assume Frog only have access to the reissue on Champion 40038 or they would
        have issued the original reverse. As nothing whatever is known about this
        band any notion about them is merely a vagrant assumption. On Gennett labels
        issue numbers provide no clue to the intended market, not that that is
        conclusive anyway.


        on 11/09/2009 14:38, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:

        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yesterday, I received my copy of the latest Frog release, DGF 71, "Frog Spawn
        > - the First Batch". My first opinion is contained below. Just in case, I'd
        > like to point out that I have no interest in Frog apart from their continued
        > existence to provide us with quality reissues.
        >
        > Michael Rader
        >


        Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
        howard@...
        Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Michael Rader
        ... Nick might be able to answer this, depending what Frog gave him to work on. The previous reissue on Harrison B gives Champion 16524 as its source, but
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 11, 2009
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          > No dissent, but, two supplementary questions.

          I can only adress one:
          >
          > Has anyone ever heard the other Paul Davis (Underneath The Harlem
          > Moon)? I
          > assume Frog only have access to the reissue on Champion 40038 or they
          > would
          > have issued the original reverse. As nothing whatever is known about
          > this
          > band any notion about them is merely a vagrant assumption. On Gennett
          > labels
          > issue numbers provide no clue to the intended market, not that that is
          > conclusive anyway.



          Nick might be able to answer this, depending what Frog gave him to work on. The previous reissue on Harrison B gives Champion 16524 as its source, but refrains from including the other side, for whatever reason. 78 Quarterly (under?) estimates 3 known copies, so someone must know the side.

          Michael Rader

          ________________________________________________________________
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        • aclassicjazzfan
          Michael: Thank you very much for the immensely informative and insightful review of Frog Spawn. I wasn t sure about this release, but based upon your
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 11, 2009
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            Michael:

            Thank you very much for the immensely informative and insightful review of "Frog Spawn." I wasn't sure about this release, but based upon your comments I'll be sure to get it. Speaking of new releases, would you--or any of the other list members--know if the songs on the newly released Retrieval CD, "The Jazz Modernists," are the same as those already widely available on other CDs? Even if they are, perhaps Harry Coster has improved their sound.

            Gerard J. Fitzpatrick


            --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "armstark2000" <Rader.Michael@...> wrote:
            >
            > Yesterday, I received my copy of the latest Frog release, DGF 71, "Frog Spawn - the First Batch". My first opinion is contained below. Just in case, I'd like to point out that I have no interest in Frog apart from their continued existence to provide us with quality reissues.
            >
            > Michael Rader
            >
            > There are collectors who very much dislike multiple-artist compilations, especially when they unite artists as disparate as Dicky Wells' Shim Shammers and Matson's Lucky Seven as Frog 71 does. In fact the Penguin Guide by Messrs. Morton and Cook leaves them out altogether.
            > This issue is headlined "Frog Spawn – the First Batch" (try saying that out aloud and you will see that it has hidden sales potential among buyers hoping to find clandestinely included graphics files, known as "Easter Eggs" in the earlier days of CD technology). While other Frog CDs have been compilations they were tied together by a common theme, mainly geographical provenance, but the Frog Spawn series are conceived to complement existing "complete" works, fill in gaps left by other CDs or to provide a home for orphaned sessions which do not fit sensibly into other, more consistent, compilations.
            > That said, this is a very entertaining program in its own right, much like a listening session among collectors displaying their rarities or a radio show, reminiscent of 1970s LPs on the Historical, Harrison and Jazum labels. In fact, some of the one-off sides saw their first reissue on such labels: the William (Buster) Bailey trio (one side on a Historical LP of Hot Clarinets), Matson's Lucky Seven (first a Rarities EP, then on a Gannet LP), the Blue Rhythm Orchestra (a VJM LP of Clarence Williams odds and ends). The Bailey and Blue Rhythm Orchestra –which has Bailey as clarinettist – also made it onto CD, dubbed from the LPs for 4 out of 5 tracks, and in abysmal audio quality – the Baileys on Chronological Classics, which additionally had the problem of combining these mid-1920s sides with swing-era recordings with what was to evolve into the John Kirby Sextet.
            > In the category of gap-fillers for otherwise complete chronological surveys, we find the missing Oliver Victors, the Earl Hines 1929 "Beau Koo Jack", Tom Morris "The Mess" and tests of three Eubie Blake Victors in alternative versions completing Frog CDs. Two sides by Fletcher Henderson, a very hot "Clarinet Marmalade" featuring solo work by Tom Ladnier and Buster Bailey, and the Dixie Stompers' "Hi Diddle Diddle" add to comprehensive reissues on Timeless. I believe that there is another take of the Dixie Stompers' "Jackass Blues" which has still not made it onto CD, although it was reissued on a Parlophone LP – material for another batch of Spawn?
            > This kind of material is bound to please collectors familiar with the more common versions of these sides for the differences, which in some cases are quite subtle, but in others like the Henderson "Marmalade", quite noticeable
            > The Texas Blues Destroyers, comprising only Bubber Miley and Arthur Ray on what was thought to be a "reed organ", but now suspected to be an accordion, have been discussed recently on the Red Hot Jazz mailing list. The two sides included here are the Vocalion version missing from the EPM Hot and Sweet New York Horns compilation, although that is probably now hard to get. The Paul Davis "Black and Tan Fantasy" falls into the "sleeper" category and has had a previous reissue on a Harrison LP. Booklet note writer Richard Rains points out that it is uncertain whether this was, as usually thought, a white band.
            > A prize of this CD is an alternative version of Frankie Franko's "Golden Lily Blues", which features the trumpet and singing of Punch Miller who recorded all too seldom during the twenties. Surprisingly, the Frankos never made it onto EP during the era when there were series issued by the major labels.
            > The remaining sides all saw previous reissue in some form or another. As I've mentioned before, one of the Buster Baileys was reissued on a Historical LP and must have left many people wondering about its session mate. When it made it onto the Chronological Classics CD, it was in really terrible sound quality. On my sole visit to Frog's late owner, David French, I asked him to play the record for me and was so impressed that I asked for its reissue. David would have been willing to oblige, but didn't know what else to put with it. He later sent me a cassette dub which I treasured and even transferred to CD, but now we at last have it on CD and in wonderful sound.
            > Matson's Lucky Seven are part of the small output of Charles Matson, so we can ask why it has been included here instead of an issue devoted at least partly to Matson. At a guess, I would think the others are foreseen for a forthcoming Frog release devoted to cornetist Bernie Young. The personnel on the Lucky Seven is largely unidentified – probably they include several New York musicians who visited the studios more than once. The Troy Harmonists and Jackson & his Southern Stompers were previously on a GAPS LP devoted to 1920s big bands. The Jackson is almost certainly by the Charlie Johnson Orchestra of the period with such luminaries as Sidney de Paris, Jimmy Harrison and Benny Waters in attendance. It comes from a 7 inch recording not known to exist before a box containing 12 mint copies was discovered in Paris. Despite the 7 inch format these are full-length recordings on a par with the remainder of Johnson's output.
            > Finally, Dicky Wells' Shim Shammers have nothing whatever to do with the trombonist, but are a kind of "spasm" group, recorded some time after the rest of the items on the CD. Reissued in the past as part of a box set on Columbia/CBS, these start off sounding rather like a late twenties/early thirties Ellington number interpreted by a washboard band with strong string bass and a guitar solo reminiscent of Lonnie Johnson or Teddy Bunn. A "nice tune" and the only one out of six recordings made at a session to see the light of day. Another case of "what else to put with it" which is partly a result of post LP-era thinking – the original recordings were, of course, bought one at a time and also seldom heard in complete chronological sequence.
            > In common with other recent Frog CDs, these have been restored by RHJ list member Nick Dellow. CD producers have in recent years been worried by the void left through John R.T. Davies' passing. Like its Canadian contemporary; Jazz Oracle, Frog called in John's favourite pupil, Ted Kendall to do restoration work. More recently, Ted, who also works on improving CEDAR technology, has come in for criticism for deviating from John RT's ideals – in particular introducing a clinical digital sound with attendant destruction of "air", which was all-important to John. A direct comparison of the same tracks restored by John and Ted does indeed show that Ted has not always been able to improve on John's work, admirable as his efforts may be on their own merits.
            > Nick first came to my attention with his two-part interview of John in VJM. The first restoration effort I bought was a Retrieval CD by Danny Polo, which was fine indeed, but draws on better-recorded 1930s material which is also probably closer to his own interests than, say, Chicago South Side Music from gritty originals. His earliest work for Frog was the CD by the Missourians and related groups and the quality is best appreciated on the earlier sides. The "King Mutt" issue had me a little worried due to strange noises in the background of certain passages (maybe the mandolin, but then I'm not familiar with the originals), but I am pleased to report that Nick has worked very well and fully in John RT's spirit with the numbers included in Frog Spawn – the First Batch.
            > The time will probably come when you can buy these a track at a time from Amazon, but the current asking price of ten pounds is only a fraction of what it would cost to obtain only a single record included in the CD. By purchasing the CD, you will be helping Frog to produce further high-quality issues of rare material that hasn't been restored since the days of the LP or has never been heard except by a select handful of collectors.
            >
          • Nick Dellow
            Firstly, many thanks to Michael for his in-depth review. As Howard correctly surmised, the Paul Davis transfer was taken from Champion 40038. And Michael is
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 11, 2009
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              Firstly, many thanks to Michael for his in-depth review. As Howard correctly
              surmised, the Paul Davis transfer was taken from Champion 40038.

              And Michael is also correct in his belief that there is another take of the
              Dixie Stompers' "Jackass Blues" which has still not made it onto CD.


              Nick


              2009/9/11 Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@...>

              >
              >
              > > No dissent, but, two supplementary questions.
              >
              > I can only adress one:
              > >
              > > Has anyone ever heard the other Paul Davis (Underneath The Harlem
              > > Moon)? I
              > > assume Frog only have access to the reissue on Champion 40038 or they
              > > would
              > > have issued the original reverse. As nothing whatever is known about
              > > this
              > > band any notion about them is merely a vagrant assumption. On Gennett
              > > labels
              > > issue numbers provide no clue to the intended market, not that that is
              > > conclusive anyway.
              >
              >
              >
              > Nick might be able to answer this, depending what Frog gave him to work on.
              > The previous reissue on Harrison B gives Champion 16524 as its source, but
              > refrains from including the other side, for whatever reason. 78 Quarterly
              > (under?) estimates 3 known copies, so someone must know the side.
              >
              > Michael Rader
              >
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              >
              >
              >
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              > ------------------------------------
              >
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              >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Michael Rader
              Gerard, Although I must admit to being puzzled by a track called Solilognoy (at a guess a typo for Rube Bloom s Soliloquy ) listed both on the Challenge
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 11, 2009
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                Gerard,

                Although I must admit to being puzzled by a track called "Solilognoy" (at a guess a typo for Rube Bloom's "Soliloquy") listed both on the Challenge website and elsewhere, I have the impression that most, if not all, of the contents of the CD have been previously issued on quality CDs (early JSP, Timeless, Jazz Oracle, Frog and HEP). From this point of view, it doesn't strike me as a particular sensible reissue. But it is sure to be entertaining listening and might have informative notes by Digby Fairweather and it depends whether such a package is worth a little more than ten bucks to you (Amazon.com price). Harry Coster is usually a sign of quality, but probably not better than John RT Davies.

                Michael


                > Michael:
                > Speaking of new releases,
                > would you--or any of the other list members--know if the songs on the
                > newly released Retrieval CD, "The Jazz Modernists," are the same as
                > those already widely available on other CDs? Even if they are,
                > perhaps Harry Coster has improved their sound.
                >
                > Gerard J. Fitzpatrick

                ________________________________________________________________
                Neu: WEB.DE Doppel-FLAT mit Internet-Flatrate + Telefon-Flatrate
                für nur 19,99 Euro/mtl.!* http://produkte.web.de/go/02/
              • Howard Rye
                Okay, I know the provence of the modern belief that Arthur Ray is playing an accordion. But does anyone know of any other record in or out of jazz on which an
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 13, 2009
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                  Okay, I know the provence of the modern belief that Arthur Ray is playing an
                  accordion. But does anyone know of any other record in or out of jazz on
                  which an accordion sounds like this?

                  These records have been known to collectors since forever and the instrument
                  has always been listed as an organ. Perhaps this could just possibly be
                  because the labels of Vocalion 14913 state quite unambiguously ³organ and
                  cornet².

                  I can¹t help thinking this is a solution in search of a problem.

                  Just out of interest, are these the earliest jazz records that were not
                  primarily marketed for dancing? For they surely cannot have been aimed at
                  home dancers, can they? They are music intended for listening.

                  I mean to try and describe the differences between the versions if I don¹t
                  go completely mad first, but the notes to DGF71 claim the Pathé version not
                  the Vocalion, and I think we have previously established that the Vocalion
                  version is on EPM (tracks 1 & 2).

                  By the by, I don¹t think Frog are right that the version of Golden Lily
                  Blues on which the first line of the vocal is ³Well, standing on Garfield,
                  mama, near blue El² rather than ³Well, standing on Garfield, mama, near the
                  El² is issued here for the first time. I already have two takes and the
                  ³blue El² version is on Herwin H108 from the Klatzko/Whelan Collection. On
                  the other hand I can¹t hear on any version the other difference noted by
                  Richard Rains in the DGF71 notes, ³weren¹t that some good news² rather than
                  ³ain¹t that some good news².
                  Am I going potty or is something more complicated occurring here. Nick?



                  on 11/09/2009 14:38, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:
                  > The Texas Blues Destroyers, comprising only Bubber Miley and Arthur Ray on
                  > what was thought to be a "reed organ", but now suspected to be an accordion,
                  > have been discussed recently on the Red Hot Jazz mailing list. The two sides
                  > included here are the Vocalion version missing from the EPM Hot and Sweet New
                  > York Horns compilation, although that is probably now hard to get.
                  >
                  >


                  Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                  howard@...
                  Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Nick Dellow
                  Howard, I don t think you are going potty; I also hear ain t rather than weren t . Incidentally, the timbre of the sax heard under Punch s solo and vocal in
                  Message 8 of 16 , Sep 13, 2009
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                    Howard, I don't think you are going potty; I also hear "ain't" rather than
                    "weren't".

                    Incidentally, the timbre of the sax heard under Punch's solo and vocal in
                    "Golden Lily Blues" sounds like that of a soprano, at least to my ears (even
                    though the notes played are well within the range of the alto sax);
                    however, the instrument featured after Cohn's piano solo is an alto sax! The
                    soprano sax is heard again towards the end of the side, as is a clarinet,
                    and by my reckoning the last two-bar riff is played in unison by cornet,
                    clarinet and soprano sax (with brass bass and cymbal adding the punctuation
                    marks!)

                    Presumably, the clarinet is played by Fred Howard, as suggested by Rust in
                    the 4th (and earlier?) edition of Jazz Records, though oddly omitted in
                    later editions!




                    Nick



                    2009/9/13 Howard Rye <howard@...>

                    >
                    >
                    > Okay, I know the provence of the modern belief that Arthur Ray is playing
                    > an
                    > accordion. But does anyone know of any other record in or out of jazz on
                    > which an accordion sounds like this?
                    >
                    > These records have been known to collectors since forever and the
                    > instrument
                    > has always been listed as an organ. Perhaps this could just possibly be
                    > because the labels of Vocalion 14913 state quite unambiguously ³organ and
                    > cornet².
                    >
                    > I can¹t help thinking this is a solution in search of a problem.
                    >
                    > Just out of interest, are these the earliest jazz records that were not
                    > primarily marketed for dancing? For they surely cannot have been aimed at
                    > home dancers, can they? They are music intended for listening.
                    >
                    > I mean to try and describe the differences between the versions if I don¹t
                    > go completely mad first, but the notes to DGF71 claim the Pathé version not
                    > the Vocalion, and I think we have previously established that the Vocalion
                    > version is on EPM (tracks 1 & 2).
                    >
                    > By the by, I don¹t think Frog are right that the version of Golden Lily
                    > Blues on which the first line of the vocal is ³Well, standing on Garfield,
                    > mama, near blue El² rather than ³Well, standing on Garfield, mama, near the
                    > El² is issued here for the first time. I already have two takes and the
                    > ³blue El² version is on Herwin H108 from the Klatzko/Whelan Collection. On
                    > the other hand I can¹t hear on any version the other difference noted by
                    > Richard Rains in the DGF71 notes, ³weren¹t that some good news² rather than
                    > ³ain¹t that some good news².
                    > Am I going potty or is something more complicated occurring here. Nick?
                    >
                    > on 11/09/2009 14:38, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@...<Rader.Michael%40web.de>wrote:
                    > > The Texas Blues Destroyers, comprising only Bubber Miley and Arthur Ray
                    > on
                    > > what was thought to be a "reed organ", but now suspected to be an
                    > accordion,
                    > > have been discussed recently on the Red Hot Jazz mailing list. The two
                    > sides
                    > > included here are the Vocalion version missing from the EPM Hot and Sweet
                    > New
                    > > York Horns compilation, although that is probably now hard to get.
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                    > howard@... <howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk>
                    > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Michael Rader
                    You re right about this, although the Frog comes from Perect 14341 - my memory is no longer as good as it was and I was writing from what is left of it. The
                    Message 9 of 16 , Sep 13, 2009
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                      You're right about this, although the Frog comes from Perect 14341 - my memory is no longer as good as it was and I was writing from what is left of it.

                      The notes also give Champion 400038 for the Paul Davis, but maybe the issue on Frog will bring an an owner of the other side into the open.

                      The Charles Matsons are apparently foreseen for the second batch of Spawn and not for the Bernie Young - my guess was due to a "prototype" CD of a Bernie Young kindly sent by a collector friend of David French's.

                      The Oliver Olga was recently reissued on Jazz Oracle's "Gift from the President" tribute to John RT Davies.

                      I also forgot to mention that Nick had previously been active as a sleeve not writer for Retrieval.

                      As I said, a first opinion...

                      Michael Rader
                      >
                      > I mean to try and describe the differences between the versions if I
                      > don¹t
                      > go completely mad first, but the notes to DGF71 claim the Pathé
                      > version not
                      > the Vocalion, and I think we have previously established that the
                      > Vocalion
                      > version is on EPM (tracks 1 & 2).

                      > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                      > howard@...
                      > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                      >

                      ______________________________________________________
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                    • Howard Rye
                      Thank you for that reassurance, Nick. Sometimes comparing takes can make you doubt your sanity. According to Index to Jazz the Franko personnel was supplied by
                      Message 10 of 16 , Sep 13, 2009
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                        Thank you for that reassurance, Nick. Sometimes comparing takes can make you
                        doubt your sanity.

                        According to Index to Jazz the Franko personnel was supplied by Eugene
                        Williams, which doesn¹t really tell us the source, and he named Omer Simeon
                        as the clarinettist and Fred Howard on tenor sax. Later the presence of an
                        alto sax was noticed and Rust 3 has only one reed player (Howard, clarinet
                        and alto sax). The alto sax was evidently identified as Leon Washington by
                        the man himself in Record Research 99. I don¹t seem to have this but my
                        notes from it at least imply that he confirmed the rest of the personnel as
                        now quoted. It would be good to check though.


                        on 13/09/2009 16:02, Nick Dellow at nick.dellow@... wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Howard, I don't think you are going potty; I also hear "ain't" rather than
                        > "weren't".
                        >
                        > Incidentally, the timbre of the sax heard under Punch's solo and vocal in
                        > "Golden Lily Blues" sounds like that of a soprano, at least to my ears (even
                        > though the notes played are well within the range of the alto sax);
                        > however, the instrument featured after Cohn's piano solo is an alto sax! The
                        > soprano sax is heard again towards the end of the side, as is a clarinet,
                        > and by my reckoning the last two-bar riff is played in unison by cornet,
                        > clarinet and soprano sax (with brass bass and cymbal adding the punctuation
                        > marks!)
                        >
                        > Presumably, the clarinet is played by Fred Howard, as suggested by Rust in
                        > the 4th (and earlier?) edition of Jazz Records, though oddly omitted in
                        > later editions!
                        >
                        > Nick
                        >
                        > 2009/9/13 Howard Rye <howard@...
                        > <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk> >
                        >
                        >> >
                        >> >
                        >> > Okay, I know the provence of the modern belief that Arthur Ray is playing
                        >> > an
                        >> > accordion. But does anyone know of any other record in or out of jazz on
                        >> > which an accordion sounds like this?
                        >> >
                        >> > These records have been known to collectors since forever and the
                        >> > instrument
                        >> > has always been listed as an organ. Perhaps this could just possibly be
                        >> > because the labels of Vocalion 14913 state quite unambiguously ³organ and
                        >> > cornet².
                        >> >
                        >> > I can¹t help thinking this is a solution in search of a problem.
                        >> >
                        >> > Just out of interest, are these the earliest jazz records that were not
                        >> > primarily marketed for dancing? For they surely cannot have been aimed at
                        >> > home dancers, can they? They are music intended for listening.
                        >> >
                        >> > I mean to try and describe the differences between the versions if I don¹t
                        >> > go completely mad first, but the notes to DGF71 claim the Pathé version not
                        >> > the Vocalion, and I think we have previously established that the Vocalion
                        >> > version is on EPM (tracks 1 & 2).
                        >> >
                        >> > By the by, I don¹t think Frog are right that the version of Golden Lily
                        >> > Blues on which the first line of the vocal is ³Well, standing on Garfield,
                        >> > mama, near blue El² rather than ³Well, standing on Garfield, mama, near the
                        >> > El² is issued here for the first time. I already have two takes and the
                        >> > ³blue El² version is on Herwin H108 from the Klatzko/Whelan Collection. On
                        >> > the other hand I can¹t hear on any version the other difference noted by
                        >> > Richard Rains in the DGF71 notes, ³weren¹t that some good news² rather than
                        >> > ³ain¹t that some good news².
                        >> > Am I going potty or is something more complicated occurring here. Nick?
                        >> >
                        >> > on 11/09/2009 14:38, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@...
                        >> <mailto:Rader.Michael%40web.de> <Rader.Michael%40web.de>wrote:
                        >>> > > The Texas Blues Destroyers, comprising only Bubber Miley and Arthur Ray
                        >> > on
                        >>> > > what was thought to be a "reed organ", but now suspected to be an
                        >> > accordion,
                        >>> > > have been discussed recently on the Red Hot Jazz mailing list. The two
                        >> > sides
                        >>> > > included here are the Vocalion version missing from the EPM Hot and >>>
                        Sweet
                        >> > New
                        >>> > > York Horns compilation, although that is probably now hard to get.
                        >>> > >
                        >>> > >
                        >> >
                        >> > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                        >> > howard@... <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk>
                        >> <howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk>
                        >> > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                        >> >
                        >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >> >
                        >> >
                        >> >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                        > howard@...
                        > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                        >



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • yves francois
                        Hello, Nick, Michael and all else concerned about Paul Davis CHAMPION 40038     I just purchased Frog Spawn, and will have more  to say in the next day or
                        Message 11 of 16 , Nov 19, 2009
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                          Hello, Nick, Michael and all else concerned about Paul Davis CHAMPION 40038     I just purchased Frog Spawn, and will have more  to say in the next day or so, but in the meantime, I see mention in the liner notes about Paul Davis. I agree with the liner notes that it sounds like a black band (the names were usually pseudonymous probably to save money, or have an "anglo" name to sell the record better). The name "Paul Davis" was used on a variety of records on the Champion label - much as certain names were used on ARC etc. I have an interesting theory here regarding this recording (matrix# 18910, you will see why I am taking about matrix # here in a second), when I look for what band a pseudonymous (this is probably just that considering Champion's track record with that name) issue on a record, I look at the matrix numbers, and then play the record you have next to it (easier said than done here!). Well I do not have Champion matrix # 18911, but
                          look what it is ...
                          Jimmy Raschel and His orchestrano dertails except Jimmy Raschel, Estelle Galloway vocalRichmond Indiana November 28 193218911 It Don't Mean A Thing (If It Ain't Got That Swing) (eg vcl) CHAMPION 1653418912 Nobody's sweetheart (jr vcl) (unissued)
                          It is too bad this record is phenomenally rare, it would be instructive to compare it. Think about it - 2 matrix numbers recorded (or mastered) within 3 days of each other, a known black band in Jimmy Raschel (Raschel's bands - territory band Detroit - included such alumni as George Johnson, Henry Savage, Milt Buckner, Bernie Peacock and Howard McGhee over a 17 year period of time), and one that sounds pretty much like a black territory band of that part of the country in the early 1930's - makes one wonder - any one who does own Champion 16534 please check on this (while we are at it were there any references to Raschel by the Argentine guitarist bandleader Ahmed Ratip - who was in detroit in the early middle 1930's?) - too bad I don't have that one, or else I would have. more soon and all the bestYves Francois
                          PS Nick wonderful work on the remastering on this CD - I have to admit the "Jackson's Southern Stompers" Marathon 227 never sounded better - but that is another story I will continue tomorrow from last week (and surprised no one was interested in the gentleman's response - esp 1933 broadcasts of the Johnson band!!)


                          --- On Fri, 9/11/09, Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...> wrote:

                          From: Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...>
                          Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Frog Spawn - a first opinion
                          To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Friday, September 11, 2009, 1:57 PM













                           





                          Firstly, many thanks to Michael for his in-depth review. As Howard correctly

                          surmised, the Paul Davis transfer was taken from Champion 40038.



                          And Michael is also correct in his belief that there is another take of the

                          Dixie Stompers' "Jackass Blues" which has still not made it onto CD.



                          Nick



                          2009/9/11 Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@ web.de>



                          >

                          >

                          > > No dissent, but, two supplementary questions.

                          >

                          > I can only adress one:

                          > >

                          > > Has anyone ever heard the other Paul Davis (Underneath The Harlem

                          > > Moon)? I

                          > > assume Frog only have access to the reissue on Champion 40038 or they

                          > > would

                          > > have issued the original reverse. As nothing whatever is known about

                          > > this

                          > > band any notion about them is merely a vagrant assumption. On Gennett

                          > > labels

                          > > issue numbers provide no clue to the intended market, not that that is

                          > > conclusive anyway.

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > Nick might be able to answer this, depending what Frog gave him to work on.

                          > The previous reissue on Harrison B gives Champion 16524 as its source, but

                          > refrains from including the other side, for whatever reason. 78 Quarterly

                          > (under?) estimates 3 known copies, so someone must know the side.

                          >

                          > Michael Rader



















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                        • Nick Dellow
                          Yves, thank you for your kind words, which are very much appreciated. I also do not possess matrix #18911, more s the pity. It would be good to work out who
                          Message 12 of 16 , Nov 20, 2009
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                            Yves, thank you for your kind words, which are very much appreciated. I also
                            do not possess matrix #18911, more's the pity. It would be good to work out
                            who this particular "Paul Davis" was!


                            2009/11/20 yves francois <aprestitine@...>

                            >
                            >
                            > Hello, Nick, Michael and all else concerned about Paul Davis CHAMPION
                            > 40038 I just purchased Frog Spawn, and will have more to say in the
                            > next day or so, but in the meantime, I see mention in the liner notes about
                            > Paul Davis. I agree with the liner notes that it sounds like a black band
                            > (the names were usually pseudonymous probably to save money, or have an
                            > "anglo" name to sell the record better). The name "Paul Davis" was used on a
                            > variety of records on the Champion label - much as certain names were used
                            > on ARC etc. I have an interesting theory here regarding this recording
                            > (matrix# 18910, you will see why I am taking about matrix # here in a
                            > second), when I look for what band a pseudonymous (this is probably just
                            > that considering Champion's track record with that name) issue on a record,
                            > I look at the matrix numbers, and then play the record you have next to it
                            > (easier said than done here!). Well I do not have Champion matrix # 18911,
                            > but
                            > look what it is ...
                            > Jimmy Raschel and His orchestrano dertails except Jimmy Raschel, Estelle
                            > Galloway vocalRichmond Indiana November 28 193218911 It Don't Mean A Thing
                            > (If It Ain't Got That Swing) (eg vcl) CHAMPION 1653418912 Nobody's
                            > sweetheart (jr vcl) (unissued)
                            > It is too bad this record is phenomenally rare, it would be instructive to
                            > compare it. Think about it - 2 matrix numbers recorded (or mastered) within
                            > 3 days of each other, a known black band in Jimmy Raschel (Raschel's bands -
                            > territory band Detroit - included such alumni as George Johnson, Henry
                            > Savage, Milt Buckner, Bernie Peacock and Howard McGhee over a 17 year period
                            > of time), and one that sounds pretty much like a black territory band of
                            > that part of the country in the early 1930's - makes one wonder - any one
                            > who does own Champion 16534 please check on this (while we are at it were
                            > there any references to Raschel by the Argentine guitarist bandleader Ahmed
                            > Ratip - who was in detroit in the early middle 1930's?) - too bad I don't
                            > have that one, or else I would have. more soon and all the bestYves Francois
                            > PS Nick wonderful work on the remastering on this CD - I have to admit the
                            > "Jackson's Southern Stompers" Marathon 227 never sounded better - but that
                            > is another story I will continue tomorrow from last week (and surprised no
                            > one was interested in the gentleman's response - esp 1933 broadcasts of the
                            > Johnson band!!)
                            >
                            > --- On Fri, 9/11/09, Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...<nick.dellow%40gmail.com>>
                            > wrote:
                            >
                            > From: Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@... <nick.dellow%40gmail.com>>
                            > Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Frog Spawn - a first opinion
                            > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > Date: Friday, September 11, 2009, 1:57 PM
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Firstly, many thanks to Michael for his in-depth review. As Howard
                            > correctly
                            >
                            > surmised, the Paul Davis transfer was taken from Champion 40038.
                            >
                            > And Michael is also correct in his belief that there is another take of the
                            >
                            > Dixie Stompers' "Jackass Blues" which has still not made it onto CD.
                            >
                            > Nick
                            >
                            > 2009/9/11 Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@ web.de>
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > No dissent, but, two supplementary questions.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > I can only adress one:
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > > > Has anyone ever heard the other Paul Davis (Underneath The Harlem
                            >
                            > > > Moon)? I
                            >
                            > > > assume Frog only have access to the reissue on Champion 40038 or they
                            >
                            > > > would
                            >
                            > > > have issued the original reverse. As nothing whatever is known about
                            >
                            > > > this
                            >
                            > > > band any notion about them is merely a vagrant assumption. On Gennett
                            >
                            > > > labels
                            >
                            > > > issue numbers provide no clue to the intended market, not that that is
                            >
                            > > > conclusive anyway.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > Nick might be able to answer this, depending what Frog gave him to work
                            > on.
                            >
                            > > The previous reissue on Harrison B gives Champion 16524 as its source,
                            > but
                            >
                            > > refrains from including the other side, for whatever reason. 78 Quarterly
                            >
                            > > (under?) estimates 3 known copies, so someone must know the side.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > Michael Rader
                            >
                            >
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                          • Bob Eagle
                            FWIW, Jimmy Raschel s given name was James E. Rachels (sic), the son of a physician. His brother, Arthur W. Rachels, 2 years Jimmy s junior, was also a
                            Message 13 of 16 , Nov 20, 2009
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                              FWIW, Jimmy Raschel's given name was James E. Rachels (sic), the son of a physician. His brother, Arthur W. Rachels, 2 years Jimmy's junior, was also a musician. Rachels is the consistent spelling in official records.

                              Jimmy was born at Mexico, Audrain County, Missouri in 1910, but the family had moved to Danville, Vermilion County, Illinois by 1916 and were still there in 1930. Raschel was later active in Detroit.

                              Bob

                              --- On Sat, 21/11/09, Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...> wrote:

                              > From: Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...>
                              > Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Frog Spawn - a first opinion RE: PAUL DAVIS matrix# 18910 .. and matrix #18911
                              > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                              > Received: Saturday, 21 November, 2009, 4:10 AM
                              > Yves, thank you for your kind words,
                              > which are very much appreciated. I also
                              > do not possess matrix #18911, more's the pity. It would be
                              > good to work out
                              > who this particular "Paul Davis" was!
                              >
                              >
                              > 2009/11/20 yves francois <aprestitine@...>
                              >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Hello, Nick, Michael and all else concerned about Paul
                              > Davis CHAMPION
                              > > 40038     I just purchased Frog
                              > Spawn, and will have more  to say in the
                              > > next day or so, but in the meantime, I see mention in
                              > the liner notes about
                              > > Paul Davis. I agree with the liner notes that it
                              > sounds like a black band
                              > > (the names were usually pseudonymous probably to save
                              > money, or have an
                              > > "anglo" name to sell the record better). The name
                              > "Paul Davis" was used on a
                              > > variety of records on the Champion label - much as
                              > certain names were used
                              > > on ARC etc. I have an interesting theory here
                              > regarding this recording
                              > > (matrix# 18910, you will see why I am taking about
                              > matrix # here in a
                              > > second), when I look for what band a pseudonymous
                              > (this is probably just
                              > > that considering Champion's track record with that
                              > name) issue on a record,
                              > > I look at the matrix numbers, and then play the record
                              > you have next to it
                              > > (easier said than done here!). Well I do not have
                              > Champion matrix # 18911,
                              > > but
                              > > look what it is ...
                              > > Jimmy Raschel and His orchestrano dertails except
                              > Jimmy Raschel, Estelle
                              > > Galloway vocalRichmond Indiana November 28 193218911
                              > It Don't Mean A Thing
                              > > (If It Ain't Got That Swing) (eg vcl) CHAMPION
                              > 1653418912 Nobody's
                              > > sweetheart (jr vcl) (unissued)
                              > > It is too bad this record is phenomenally rare, it
                              > would be instructive to
                              > > compare it. Think about it - 2 matrix numbers recorded
                              > (or mastered) within
                              > > 3 days of each other, a known black band in Jimmy
                              > Raschel (Raschel's bands -
                              > > territory band Detroit - included such alumni as
                              > George Johnson, Henry
                              > > Savage, Milt Buckner, Bernie Peacock and Howard McGhee
                              > over a 17 year period
                              > > of time), and one that sounds pretty much like a black
                              > territory band of
                              > > that part of the country in the early 1930's - makes
                              > one wonder - any one
                              > > who does own Champion 16534 please check on this
                              > (while we are at it were
                              > > there any references to Raschel by the Argentine
                              > guitarist bandleader Ahmed
                              > > Ratip - who was in detroit in the early middle
                              > 1930's?) - too bad I don't
                              > > have that one, or else I would have. more soon and all
                              > the bestYves Francois
                              > > PS Nick wonderful work on the remastering on this CD -
                              > I have to admit the
                              > > "Jackson's Southern Stompers" Marathon 227 never
                              > sounded better - but that
                              > > is another story I will continue tomorrow from last
                              > week (and surprised no
                              > > one was interested in the gentleman's response - esp
                              > 1933 broadcasts of the
                              > > Johnson band!!)
                              > >
                              > > --- On Fri, 9/11/09, Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...<nick.dellow%40gmail.com>>
                              > > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > From: Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...
                              > <nick.dellow%40gmail.com>>
                              > > Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Frog Spawn - a first
                              > opinion
                              > > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                              > <RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > Date: Friday, September 11, 2009, 1:57 PM
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Firstly, many thanks to Michael for his in-depth
                              > review. As Howard
                              > > correctly
                              > >
                              > > surmised, the Paul Davis transfer was taken from
                              > Champion 40038.
                              > >
                              > > And Michael is also correct in his belief that there
                              > is another take of the
                              > >
                              > > Dixie Stompers' "Jackass Blues" which has still not
                              > made it onto CD.
                              > >
                              > > Nick
                              > >
                              > > 2009/9/11 Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@ web.de>
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > > > No dissent, but, two supplementary
                              > questions.
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > > I can only adress one:
                              > >
                              > > > >
                              > >
                              > > > > Has anyone ever heard the other Paul Davis
                              > (Underneath The Harlem
                              > >
                              > > > > Moon)? I
                              > >
                              > > > > assume Frog only have access to the reissue
                              > on Champion 40038 or they
                              > >
                              > > > > would
                              > >
                              > > > > have issued the original reverse. As nothing
                              > whatever is known about
                              > >
                              > > > > this
                              > >
                              > > > > band any notion about them is merely a
                              > vagrant assumption. On Gennett
                              > >
                              > > > > labels
                              > >
                              > > > > issue numbers provide no clue to the
                              > intended market, not that that is
                              > >
                              > > > > conclusive anyway.
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > > Nick might be able to answer this, depending what
                              > Frog gave him to work
                              > > on.
                              > >
                              > > > The previous reissue on Harrison B gives Champion
                              > 16524 as its source,
                              > > but
                              > >
                              > > > refrains from including the other side, for
                              > whatever reason. 78 Quarterly
                              > >
                              > > > (under?) estimates 3 known copies, so someone
                              > must know the side.
                              > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > > Michael Rader
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
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                            • Howard Rye
                              I have now got hold of the Gennett ledger sheet relating to this session. It offers no support for the seductive notion that this may be the Jimmy Raschel band
                              Message 14 of 16 , Feb 24, 2010
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                                I have now got hold of the Gennett ledger sheet relating to this session.

                                It offers no support for the seductive notion that this may be the Jimmy
                                Raschel band under pseudonym. The Raschel masters are clearly marked ³Race²,
                                the Davis masters are not. This is not absolutely conclusive because this is
                                a marketing assignment not a cultural one. 99% of the time this will
                                coincide but it is not a necessary relationship.

                                What is apparently conclusive is the arrival of the first volume of Richard
                                J. Johnson & Bernard Shirley¹s ³American Dance Bands on Records and Film
                                1915-1942² (Fairplay, CO, Rustbooks, 2010). This reveals what no one has
                                apparently ever bothered to mention before. This was Davis¹s first session
                                and is the only one in Jazz Records. The band actually made thirteen more
                                sessions for Gennett up to 29 July 1933, producing twenty-eight more issued
                                titles. Nineteen of these were issued in a special series for use at skating
                                rinks. Most of these are waltzes, so are many of the others though there is
                                a version of Shuffle Off To Buffalo on Champion 16591.

                                Not only that, but Johnson and Shirley have a personnel for the band from
                                December 1931, which is nearly a year before Black & Tan.

                                I think we have to accept that this is an amazingly idiomatic reading of an
                                arrangement by a white territory band which usually spent its time in other
                                areas of music entirely.

                                Incidentally there is no doubt that the Jimmy Raschel band were
                                African-Americans. These are not pseudonymous Davis items. I have several
                                personnels of Raschel¹s band and they include known names like the great
                                Chicago drummer Hillard Brown.

                                It is not inconceivable that Davis might have hired the Raschel band to
                                produce idimomatic versions of this material and issued it under the name of
                                his own band, but there is no supporting evidence for this theory and what
                                evidence there is is against it. To completely rule out skullduggery on
                                somebody¹s part, we need to hear Davis¹s ŒUnderneath The Harlem Moon¹.
                                Anyone seen it around?


                                on 20/11/2009 01:09, yves francois at aprestitine@... wrote:

                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Hello, Nick, Michael and all else concerned about Paul Davis CHAMPION 40038  
                                >   I just purchased Frog Spawn, and will have more  to say in the next day or
                                > so, but in the meantime, I see mention in the liner notes about Paul Davis. I
                                > agree with the liner notes that it sounds like a black band (the names were
                                > usually pseudonymous probably to save money, or have an "anglo" name to sell
                                > the record better). The name "Paul Davis" was used on a variety of records on
                                > the Champion label - much as certain names were used on ARC etc. I have an
                                > interesting theory here regarding this recording (matrix# 18910, you will see
                                > why I am taking about matrix # here in a second), when I look for what band a
                                > pseudonymous (this is probably just that considering Champion's track record
                                > with that name) issue on a record, I look at the matrix numbers, and then play
                                > the record you have next to it (easier said than done here!). Well I do not
                                > have Champion matrix # 18911, but
                                > look what it is ...
                                > Jimmy Raschel and His orchestrano dertails except Jimmy Raschel, Estelle
                                > Galloway vocalRichmond Indiana November 28 193218911 It Don't Mean A Thing (If
                                > It Ain't Got That Swing) (eg vcl) CHAMPION 1653418912 Nobody's sweetheart (jr
                                > vcl) (unissued)
                                > It is too bad this record is phenomenally rare, it would be instructive to
                                > compare it. Think about it - 2 matrix numbers recorded (or mastered) within 3
                                > days of each other, a known black band in Jimmy Raschel (Raschel's bands -
                                > territory band Detroit - included such alumni as George Johnson, Henry Savage,
                                > Milt Buckner, Bernie Peacock and Howard McGhee over a 17 year period of time),
                                > and one that sounds pretty much like a black territory band of that part of
                                > the country in the early 1930's - makes one wonder - any one who does own
                                > Champion 16534 please check on this (while we are at it were there any
                                > references to Raschel by the Argentine guitarist bandleader Ahmed Ratip - who
                                > was in detroit in the early middle 1930's?) - too bad I don't have that one,
                                > or else I would have. more soon and all the bestYves Francois
                                > PS Nick wonderful work on the remastering on this CD - I have to admit the
                                > "Jackson's Southern Stompers" Marathon 227 never sounded better - but that is
                                > another story I will continue tomorrow from last week (and surprised no one
                                > was interested in the gentleman's response - esp 1933 broadcasts of the
                                > Johnson band!!)
                                >
                                > --- On Fri, 9/11/09, Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...
                                > <mailto:nick.dellow%40gmail.com> > wrote:
                                >
                                > From: Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@... <mailto:nick.dellow%40gmail.com> >
                                > Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Frog Spawn - a first opinion
                                > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > Date: Friday, September 11, 2009, 1:57 PM
                                >
                                >  
                                >
                                > Firstly, many thanks to Michael for his in-depth review. As Howard correctly
                                >
                                > surmised, the Paul Davis transfer was taken from Champion 40038.
                                >
                                > And Michael is also correct in his belief that there is another take of the
                                >
                                > Dixie Stompers' "Jackass Blues" which has still not made it onto CD.
                                >
                                > Nick
                                >
                                > 2009/9/11 Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@ web.de>
                                >
                                >> >
                                >
                                >> >
                                >
                                >>> > > No dissent, but, two supplementary questions.
                                >
                                >> >
                                >
                                >> > I can only adress one:
                                >
                                >>> > >
                                >
                                >>> > > Has anyone ever heard the other Paul Davis (Underneath The Harlem
                                >
                                >>> > > Moon)? I
                                >
                                >>> > > assume Frog only have access to the reissue on Champion 40038 or they
                                >
                                >>> > > would
                                >
                                >>> > > have issued the original reverse. As nothing whatever is known about
                                >
                                >>> > > this
                                >
                                >>> > > band any notion about them is merely a vagrant assumption. On Gennett
                                >
                                >>> > > labels
                                >
                                >>> > > issue numbers provide no clue to the intended market, not that that is
                                >
                                >>> > > conclusive anyway.
                                >
                                >> >
                                >
                                >> >
                                >
                                >> >
                                >
                                >> > Nick might be able to answer this, depending what Frog gave him to work on.
                                >
                                >> > The previous reissue on Harrison B gives Champion 16524 as its source, but
                                >
                                >> > refrains from including the other side, for whatever reason. 78 Quarterly
                                >
                                >> > (under?) estimates 3 known copies, so someone must know the side.
                                >
                                >> >
                                >
                                >> > Michael Rader
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Recent Activity
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                                >
                                >  3
                                > New Members
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                                >
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                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Yahoo! News
                                > Odd News
                                > You won't believe
                                > it, but it's true
                                >
                                > Share Photos
                                > Put your favorite
                                > photos and
                                > more online.
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups
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                                > Share experiences
                                > with owners like you_._,___
                                >
                                >
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                                >
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                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                howard@...
                                Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Howard Rye
                                Sorry, Yves. Reviewing this I realize you did mention there were other sides on Champion by Paul Davis & His Orchestra, though they are not in the original
                                Message 15 of 16 , Feb 24, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Sorry, Yves.

                                  Reviewing this I realize you did mention there were other sides on Champion
                                  by Paul Davis & His Orchestra, though they are not in the original edition
                                  of the American Dance Band Discography.

                                  So the crucial piece of new information here is that this was a real
                                  bandleader and a real band, but I agree that it would not be the only
                                  instance of a bandleader¹s nme being borrowed for records with which he had
                                  only a nominal connection. I only know of this happening on New York labels.
                                  Do we know of any instances of it happening on Gennett?

                                  It¹s going off the point but at this time Jimmy Raschel¹s band was not out
                                  of Detroit, but out of Cincinnati, though some members including Raschel
                                  himself apparently belonged to the white AFM local at Benton Harbor,
                                  Michigan, which is weird beyond weird! As I have noted the Local number
                                  consistenty over several occurrences I doubt it¹s a typo but it would
                                  possibly bear re-checking. According to Albert McCarthy (quoting saxophonist
                                  George Johnson) the band was originally based at Danvillie, Illinois. My
                                  reference to Hillard Brown should be ignored. This is a misreading of
                                  Willard Brown who was a saxophonist. Didn¹t do too well with this one!


                                  on 24/02/2010 11:18, Howard Rye at howard@... wrote:

                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I have now got hold of the Gennett ledger sheet relating to this session.
                                  >
                                  > It offers no support for the seductive notion that this may be the Jimmy
                                  > Raschel band under pseudonym. The Raschel masters are clearly marked ³Race²,
                                  > the Davis masters are not. This is not absolutely conclusive because this is
                                  > a marketing assignment not a cultural one. 99% of the time this will
                                  > coincide but it is not a necessary relationship.
                                  >
                                  > What is apparently conclusive is the arrival of the first volume of Richard
                                  > J. Johnson & Bernard Shirley¹s ³American Dance Bands on Records and Film
                                  > 1915-1942² (Fairplay, CO, Rustbooks, 2010). This reveals what no one has
                                  > apparently ever bothered to mention before. This was Davis¹s first session
                                  > and is the only one in Jazz Records. The band actually made thirteen more
                                  > sessions for Gennett up to 29 July 1933, producing twenty-eight more issued
                                  > titles. Nineteen of these were issued in a special series for use at skating
                                  > rinks. Most of these are waltzes, so are many of the others though there is
                                  > a version of Shuffle Off To Buffalo on Champion 16591.
                                  >
                                  > Not only that, but Johnson and Shirley have a personnel for the band from
                                  > December 1931, which is nearly a year before Black & Tan.
                                  >
                                  > I think we have to accept that this is an amazingly idiomatic reading of an
                                  > arrangement by a white territory band which usually spent its time in other
                                  > areas of music entirely.
                                  >
                                  > Incidentally there is no doubt that the Jimmy Raschel band were
                                  > African-Americans. These are not pseudonymous Davis items. I have several
                                  > personnels of Raschel¹s band and they include known names like the great
                                  > Chicago drummer Hillard Brown.
                                  >
                                  > It is not inconceivable that Davis might have hired the Raschel band to
                                  > produce idimomatic versions of this material and issued it under the name of
                                  > his own band, but there is no supporting evidence for this theory and what
                                  > evidence there is is against it. To completely rule out skullduggery on
                                  > somebody¹s part, we need to hear Davis¹s ŒUnderneath The Harlem Moon¹.
                                  > Anyone seen it around?
                                  >
                                  > on 20/11/2009 01:09, yves francois at aprestitine@...
                                  > <mailto:aprestitine%40yahoo.com> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> > Hello, Nick, Michael and all else concerned about Paul Davis CHAMPION
                                  >> 40038  
                                  >> >   I just purchased Frog Spawn, and will have more  to say in the next day
                                  >> or
                                  >> > so, but in the meantime, I see mention in the liner notes about Paul Davis.
                                  I
                                  >> > agree with the liner notes that it sounds like a black band (the names were
                                  >> > usually pseudonymous probably to save money, or have an "anglo" name to
                                  >> sell
                                  >> > the record better). The name "Paul Davis" was used on a variety of records
                                  >> on
                                  >> > the Champion label - much as certain names were used on ARC etc. I have an
                                  >> > interesting theory here regarding this recording (matrix# 18910, you will
                                  >> see
                                  >> > why I am taking about matrix # here in a second), when I look for what band
                                  a
                                  >> > pseudonymous (this is probably just that considering Champion's track
                                  >> record
                                  >> > with that name) issue on a record, I look at the matrix numbers, and then
                                  >> play
                                  >> > the record you have next to it (easier said than done here!). Well I do not
                                  >> > have Champion matrix # 18911, but
                                  >> > look what it is ...
                                  >> > Jimmy Raschel and His orchestrano dertails except Jimmy Raschel, Estelle
                                  >> > Galloway vocalRichmond Indiana November 28 193218911 It Don't Mean A Thing
                                  >> (If
                                  >> > It Ain't Got That Swing) (eg vcl) CHAMPION 1653418912 Nobody's sweetheart
                                  >> (jr
                                  >> > vcl) (unissued)
                                  >> > It is too bad this record is phenomenally rare, it would be instructive to
                                  >> > compare it. Think about it - 2 matrix numbers recorded (or mastered) within
                                  3
                                  >> > days of each other, a known black band in Jimmy Raschel (Raschel's bands -
                                  >> > territory band Detroit - included such alumni as George Johnson, Henry
                                  >> Savage,
                                  >> > Milt Buckner, Bernie Peacock and Howard McGhee over a 17 year period of
                                  >> time),
                                  >> > and one that sounds pretty much like a black territory band of that part of
                                  >> > the country in the early 1930's - makes one wonder - any one who does own
                                  >> > Champion 16534 please check on this (while we are at it were there any
                                  >> > references to Raschel by the Argentine guitarist bandleader Ahmed Ratip -
                                  >> who
                                  >> > was in detroit in the early middle 1930's?) - too bad I don't have that
                                  >> one,
                                  >> > or else I would have. more soon and all the bestYves Francois
                                  >> > PS Nick wonderful work on the remastering on this CD - I have to admit the
                                  >> > "Jackson's Southern Stompers" Marathon 227 never sounded better - but that
                                  >> is
                                  >> > another story I will continue tomorrow from last week (and surprised no one
                                  >> > was interested in the gentleman's response - esp 1933 broadcasts of the
                                  >> > Johnson band!!)
                                  >> >
                                  >> > --- On Fri, 9/11/09, Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@...
                                  >> <mailto:nick.dellow%40gmail.com>
                                  >> > <mailto:nick.dellow%40gmail.com> > wrote:
                                  >> >
                                  >> > From: Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@... <mailto:nick.dellow%40gmail.com>
                                  >> <mailto:nick.dellow%40gmail.com> >
                                  >> > Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Frog Spawn - a first opinion
                                  >> > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  >> <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  >> > Date: Friday, September 11, 2009, 1:57 PM
                                  >> >
                                  >> >  
                                  >> >
                                  >> > Firstly, many thanks to Michael for his in-depth review. As Howard
                                  >> correctly
                                  >> >
                                  >> > surmised, the Paul Davis transfer was taken from Champion 40038.
                                  >> >
                                  >> > And Michael is also correct in his belief that there is another take of the
                                  >> >
                                  >> > Dixie Stompers' "Jackass Blues" which has still not made it onto CD.
                                  >> >
                                  >> > Nick
                                  >> >
                                  >> > 2009/9/11 Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@ web.de>
                                  >> >
                                  >>>> >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >>>> >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >>>>>> >>> > > No dissent, but, two supplementary questions.
                                  >> >
                                  >>>> >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >>>> >> > I can only adress one:
                                  >> >
                                  >>>>>> >>> > >
                                  >> >
                                  >>>>>> >>> > > Has anyone ever heard the other Paul Davis (Underneath The Harlem
                                  >> >
                                  >>>>>> >>> > > Moon)? I
                                  >> >
                                  >>>>>> >>> > > assume Frog only have access to the reissue on Champion 40038 or
                                  they
                                  >> >
                                  >>>>>> >>> > > would
                                  >> >
                                  >>>>>> >>> > > have issued the original reverse. As nothing whatever is known
                                  about
                                  >> >
                                  >>>>>> >>> > > this
                                  >> >
                                  >>>>>> >>> > > band any notion about them is merely a vagrant assumption. On
                                  Gennett
                                  >> >
                                  >>>>>> >>> > > labels
                                  >> >
                                  >>>>>> >>> > > issue numbers provide no clue to the intended market, not that
                                  that is
                                  >> >
                                  >>>>>> >>> > > conclusive anyway.
                                  >> >
                                  >>>> >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >>>> >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >>>> >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >>>> >> > Nick might be able to answer this, depending what Frog gave him to
                                  >>>> work on.
                                  >> >
                                  >>>> >> > The previous reissue on Harrison B gives Champion 16524 as its source,
                                  but
                                  >> >
                                  >>>> >> > refrains from including the other side, for whatever reason. 78
                                  >>>> Quarterly
                                  >> >
                                  >>>> >> > (under?) estimates 3 known copies, so someone must know the side.
                                  >> >
                                  >>>> >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >>>> >> > Michael Rader
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> > Recent Activity
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >  3
                                  >> > New Members
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> > Visit Your Group
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> > Yahoo! News
                                  >> > Odd News
                                  >> > You won't believe
                                  >> > it, but it's true
                                  >> >
                                  >> > Share Photos
                                  >> > Put your favorite
                                  >> > photos and
                                  >> > more online.
                                  >> >
                                  >> > Yahoo! Groups
                                  >> > Small Business Group
                                  >> > Share experiences
                                  >> > with owners like you_._,___
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >
                                  > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                  > howard@... <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk>
                                  > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >


                                  Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                  howard@...
                                  Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Bob Eagle
                                  I have a sense of deja vu about this, so my apologies if it has been posted in the past.  Raschel s real name was Rachels.  He seems to have been born in
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Feb 24, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I have a sense of deja vu about this, so my apologies if it has been posted in the past. 

                                    Raschel's real name was Rachels.  He seems to have been born in 1910 in Mexico, Missouri, but by 1918 the family was at Danville, Illinois, and they were still there in 1930.  Jimmy's brother, Arthur W. Rachels, was also a musician.  Their father was a physician and surgeon.  And the family was shown as Mu (mulatto) in 1910, B (black) in 1920 and Neg (Negro) in 1930 - despite the mother being Ivory!

                                    Bob



                                    ________________________________
                                    From: Howard Rye <howard@...>
                                    To: red hot jazz <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Thu, 25 February, 2010 2:24:44 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Frog Spawn RE: PAUL DAVIS matrix# 18910 Apologies

                                     
                                    Sorry, Yves.

                                    Reviewing this I realize you did mention there were other sides on Champion
                                    by Paul Davis & His Orchestra, though they are not in the original edition
                                    of the American Dance Band Discography.

                                    So the crucial piece of new information here is that this was a real
                                    bandleader and a real band, but I agree that it would not be the only
                                    instance of a bandleader¹s nme being borrowed for records with which he had
                                    only a nominal connection. I only know of this happening on New York labels.
                                    Do we know of any instances of it happening on Gennett?

                                    It¹s going off the point but at this time Jimmy Raschel¹s band was not out
                                    of Detroit, but out of Cincinnati, though some members including Raschel
                                    himself apparently belonged to the white AFM local at Benton Harbor,
                                    Michigan, which is weird beyond weird! As I have noted the Local number
                                    consistenty over several occurrences I doubt it¹s a typo but it would
                                    possibly bear re-checking. According to Albert McCarthy (quoting saxophonist
                                    George Johnson) the band was originally based at Danvillie, Illinois. My
                                    reference to Hillard Brown should be ignored. This is a misreading of
                                    Willard Brown who was a saxophonist. Didn¹t do too well with this one!

                                    on 24/02/2010 11:18, Howard Rye at howard@coppermill. demon.co. uk wrote:

                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I have now got hold of the Gennett ledger sheet relating to this session.
                                    >
                                    > It offers no support for the seductive notion that this may be the Jimmy
                                    > Raschel band under pseudonym. The Raschel masters are clearly marked ³Race²,
                                    > the Davis masters are not. This is not absolutely conclusive because this is
                                    > a marketing assignment not a cultural one. 99% of the time this will
                                    > coincide but it is not a necessary relationship.
                                    >
                                    > What is apparently conclusive is the arrival of the first volume of Richard
                                    > J. Johnson & Bernard Shirley¹s ³American Dance Bands on Records and Film
                                    > 1915-1942² (Fairplay, CO, Rustbooks, 2010). This reveals what no one has
                                    > apparently ever bothered to mention before. This was Davis¹s first session
                                    > and is the only one in Jazz Records. The band actually made thirteen more
                                    > sessions for Gennett up to 29 July 1933, producing twenty-eight more issued
                                    > titles. Nineteen of these were issued in a special series for use at skating
                                    > rinks. Most of these are waltzes, so are many of the others though there is
                                    > a version of Shuffle Off To Buffalo on Champion 16591.
                                    >
                                    > Not only that, but Johnson and Shirley have a personnel for the band from
                                    > December 1931, which is nearly a year before Black & Tan.
                                    >
                                    > I think we have to accept that this is an amazingly idiomatic reading of an
                                    > arrangement by a white territory band which usually spent its time in other
                                    > areas of music entirely.
                                    >
                                    > Incidentally there is no doubt that the Jimmy Raschel band were
                                    > African-Americans. These are not pseudonymous Davis items. I have several
                                    > personnels of Raschel¹s band and they include known names like the great
                                    > Chicago drummer Hillard Brown.
                                    >
                                    > It is not inconceivable that Davis might have hired the Raschel band to
                                    > produce idimomatic versions of this material and issued it under the name of
                                    > his own band, but there is no supporting evidence for this theory and what
                                    > evidence there is is against it. To completely rule out skullduggery on
                                    > somebody¹s part, we need to hear Davis¹s ŒUnderneath The Harlem Moon¹.
                                    > Anyone seen it around?
                                    >
                                    > on 20/11/2009 01:09, yves francois at aprestitine@ yahoo.com
                                    > <mailto:aprestitine %40yahoo. com> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >> >
                                    >> >
                                    >> >
                                    >> >
                                    >> >
                                    >> > Hello, Nick, Michael and all else concerned about Paul Davis CHAMPION
                                    >> 40038  
                                    >> >   I just purchased Frog Spawn, and will have more  to say in the next day
                                    >> or
                                    >> > so, but in the meantime, I see mention in the liner notes about Paul Davis.
                                    I
                                    >> > agree with the liner notes that it sounds like a black band (the names were
                                    >> > usually pseudonymous probably to save money, or have an "anglo" name to
                                    >> sell
                                    >> > the record better). The name "Paul Davis" was used on a variety of records
                                    >> on
                                    >> > the Champion label - much as certain names were used on ARC etc. I have an
                                    >> > interesting theory here regarding this recording (matrix# 18910, you will
                                    >> see
                                    >> > why I am taking about matrix # here in a second), when I look for what band
                                    a
                                    >> > pseudonymous (this is probably just that considering Champion's track
                                    >> record
                                    >> > with that name) issue on a record, I look at the matrix numbers, and then
                                    >> play
                                    >> > the record you have next to it (easier said than done here!). Well I do not
                                    >> > have Champion matrix # 18911, but
                                    >> > look what it is ...
                                    >> > Jimmy Raschel and His orchestrano dertails except Jimmy Raschel, Estelle
                                    >> > Galloway vocalRichmond Indiana November 28 193218911 It Don't Mean A Thing
                                    >> (If
                                    >> > It Ain't Got That Swing) (eg vcl) CHAMPION 1653418912 Nobody's sweetheart
                                    >> (jr
                                    >> > vcl) (unissued)
                                    >> > It is too bad this record is phenomenally rare, it would be instructive to
                                    >> > compare it. Think about it - 2 matrix numbers recorded (or mastered) within
                                    3
                                    >> > days of each other, a known black band in Jimmy Raschel (Raschel's bands -
                                    >> > territory band Detroit - included such alumni as George Johnson, Henry
                                    >> Savage,
                                    >> > Milt Buckner, Bernie Peacock and Howard McGhee over a 17 year period of
                                    >> time),
                                    >> > and one that sounds pretty much like a black territory band of that part of
                                    >> > the country in the early 1930's - makes one wonder - any one who does own
                                    >> > Champion 16534 please check on this (while we are at it were there any
                                    >> > references to Raschel by the Argentine guitarist bandleader Ahmed Ratip -
                                    >> who
                                    >> > was in detroit in the early middle 1930's?) - too bad I don't have that
                                    >> one,
                                    >> > or else I would have. more soon and all the bestYves Francois
                                    >> > PS Nick wonderful work on the remastering on this CD - I have to admit the
                                    >> > "Jackson's Southern Stompers" Marathon 227 never sounded better - but that
                                    >> is
                                    >> > another story I will continue tomorrow from last week (and surprised no one
                                    >> > was interested in the gentleman's response - esp 1933 broadcasts of the
                                    >> > Johnson band!!)
                                    >> >
                                    >> > --- On Fri, 9/11/09, Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@ gmail.com
                                    >> <mailto:nick. dellow%40gmail. com>
                                    >> > <mailto:nick. dellow%40gmail. com> > wrote:
                                    >> >
                                    >> > From: Nick Dellow <nick.dellow@ gmail.com <mailto:nick. dellow%40gmail. com>
                                    >> <mailto:nick. dellow%40gmail. com> >
                                    >> > Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Frog Spawn - a first opinion
                                    >> > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogro ups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz% 40yahoogroups. com>
                                    >> <mailto:RedHotJazz% 40yahoogroups. com>
                                    >> > Date: Friday, September 11, 2009, 1:57 PM
                                    >> >
                                    >> >  
                                    >> >
                                    >> > Firstly, many thanks to Michael for his in-depth review. As Howard
                                    >> correctly
                                    >> >
                                    >> > surmised, the Paul Davis transfer was taken from Champion 40038.
                                    >> >
                                    >> > And Michael is also correct in his belief that there is another take of the
                                    >> >
                                    >> > Dixie Stompers' "Jackass Blues" which has still not made it onto CD.
                                    >> >
                                    >> > Nick
                                    >> >
                                    >> > 2009/9/11 Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@ web.de>
                                    >> >
                                    >>>> >> >
                                    >> >
                                    >>>> >> >
                                    >> >
                                    >>>>>> >>> > > No dissent, but, two supplementary questions.
                                    >> >
                                    >>>> >> >
                                    >> >
                                    >>>> >> > I can only adress one:
                                    >> >
                                    >>>>>> >>> > >
                                    >> >
                                    >>>>>> >>> > > Has anyone ever heard the other Paul Davis (Underneath The Harlem
                                    >> >
                                    >>>>>> >>> > > Moon)? I
                                    >> >
                                    >>>>>> >>> > > assume Frog only have access to the reissue on Champion 40038 or
                                    they
                                    >> >
                                    >>>>>> >>> > > would
                                    >> >
                                    >>>>>> >>> > > have issued the original reverse. As nothing whatever is known
                                    about
                                    >> >
                                    >>>>>> >>> > > this
                                    >> >
                                    >>>>>> >>> > > band any notion about them is merely a vagrant assumption. On
                                    Gennett
                                    >> >
                                    >>>>>> >>> > > labels
                                    >> >
                                    >>>>>> >>> > > issue numbers provide no clue to the intended market, not that
                                    that is
                                    >> >
                                    >>>>>> >>> > > conclusive anyway.
                                    >> >
                                    >>>> >> >
                                    >> >
                                    >>>> >> >
                                    >> >
                                    >>>> >> >
                                    >> >
                                    >>>> >> > Nick might be able to answer this, depending what Frog gave him to
                                    >>>> work on.
                                    >> >
                                    >>>> >> > The previous reissue on Harrison B gives Champion 16524 as its source,
                                    but
                                    >> >
                                    >>>> >> > refrains from including the other side, for whatever reason. 78
                                    >>>> Quarterly
                                    >> >
                                    >>>> >> > (under?) estimates 3 known copies, so someone must know the side.
                                    >> >
                                    >>>> >> >
                                    >> >
                                    >>>> >> > Michael Rader
                                    >> >
                                    >> >
                                    >> >
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                                    > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                    > howard@coppermill. demon.co. uk <mailto:howard% 40coppermill. demon.co. uk>
                                    > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                                    Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                    howard@coppermill. demon.co. uk
                                    Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098

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