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Fats Waller 1941 touring band?

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  • ikey100
    In researching Slick Jones, a question has arisen about how often Fats group, His Rhythm, would accompany him on tour. Obviously Fats sometimes was booked
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 16, 2009
      In researching Slick Jones, a question has arisen about how often Fats' group, His Rhythm, would accompany him on tour. Obviously Fats sometimes was booked solo or with local accompaniments, and I have also seen references to Fats touring with bigger groups than the Rhythm. I just found a ticket for a show on Aug. 1, 1941 that says "with his 13 piece orchestra". Unfortunately I don't have a copy of "Fats in Fact" but the Kirkeby book mentions this long cross-country tour, which culminated in two weeks at the Paramount in Los Angeles with Eddie Anderson, and the Vance book mentions Waller's fifteen piece band getting stranded in Kansas City in May 1941. Anyway, my questions are, is it known if the Rhythm was on this tour, perhaps as the core of a bigger group, or was this another aggregation, or was it more likely a local band (which in the case of the ticket, would probably be Locklayer's band, with which Jones had started his career). Any insight as to the likelihood that Jones was on this gig will be greatly appreciated.

      Warren
    • yves francois
      Warren     I do know that in New England around 1940/41 Fats Waller used an augmented band with two much better trumpets than Bugs Hamilton could ever hope
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 16, 2009
        Warren     I do know that in New England around 1940/41 Fats Waller used an augmented band with two much better trumpets than Bugs Hamilton could ever hope to be - Jacques Butler and Bill Coleman. Franz Jackson, Lonnie Simmons  and Al Washington all told me of touring with Fats, wish you asked me this 15 or 20 years ago, they were all alive then (and all three actually enjoyed talking about it, will check w Franz's daughter if he wrote anything). Simmons was in 1938 (even recorded a solo on "Scronch"). Franz and Al were in later outfits, but not the one Bill and Jacques was in (as per Bill's memories on his book), sorry I have no further data, but see if anything shows up, I certainly will look some more.   Checking the discography, Fats was in NYC in May 1941, and recorded with a 13 piece big band in Hollywood in July 1 1941 data follows:John Hamilton, Bob Williams, Herman Autrey on trumpets, George Wilson and Ray Hogan trombones, Dave McRae and
        Jimmy Powell altos, Gene sedric and Bob Carroll tenors, Fats on piano/vocals, Al casey guitar, Cedric Wallace bass and yes, Slick Jones on drums.    It would seem logical to me since these are local 802 (NYC) musicians in 1941 that this was the touring band that was both going west in May 1941 and playing in August 1 1941 in whatever city your ticket was from (it would make sense to use the musicians to go back home to NYC, since most of those musicians were working in NYC a few months later).  Now a query: does anyone know if there are there any broadcasts of Fats with these mid sized "augmented" rhythm or the big band, the few mid and large band records seems to inspire Fats to considerably better music, but then I would say having a couple more horns and somewhat better songs may of made the mundanity of recording the same formula over and over agin a little less tedious - I would love to hear a Butler, a Coleman, a Carroll or a Jackson playing
        with Fats - I happen to like Sedric a lot, but it would be nice to hear some fresh talent w Fats ...Yves Francois

        --- On Sun, 8/16/09, ikey100 <wlmoorman3@...> wrote:

        From: ikey100 <wlmoorman3@...>
        Subject: [RedHotJazz] Fats Waller 1941 touring band?
        To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sunday, August 16, 2009, 3:45 PM













         





        In researching Slick Jones, a question has arisen about how often Fats' group, His Rhythm, would accompany him on tour. Obviously Fats sometimes was booked solo or with local accompaniments, and I have also seen references to Fats touring with bigger groups than the Rhythm. I just found a ticket for a show on Aug. 1, 1941 that says "with his 13 piece orchestra". Unfortunately I don't have a copy of "Fats in Fact" but the Kirkeby book mentions this long cross-country tour, which culminated in two weeks at the Paramount in Los Angeles with Eddie Anderson, and the Vance book mentions Waller's fifteen piece band getting stranded in Kansas City in May 1941. Anyway, my questions are, is it known if the Rhythm was on this tour, perhaps as the core of a bigger group, or was this another aggregation, or was it more likely a local band (which in the case of the ticket, would probably be Locklayer's band, with which Jones had started his career).
        Any insight as to the likelihood that Jones was on this gig will be greatly appreciated.



        Warren

















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      • Robert Greenwood
        ... I would love to hear a Butler, a Coleman, a Carroll or a Jackson playing ... I don t know of any radio broadcasts, but Bill Coleman certainly did record
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 17, 2009
          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, yves francois <aprestitine@...> wrote:
          I would love to hear a Butler, a Coleman, a Carroll or a Jackson playing
          > with Fats - I happen to like Sedric a lot, but it would be nice to hear some fresh talent w Fats ...Yves Francois
          >

          I don't know of any radio broadcasts, but Bill Coleman certainly did record with Fats; in 1934, I think.

          Robert Greenwood.
        • hans.eekhoff
          According to Fats In Fact , for a few months prior to July 1942 (not 1940/41) the augmented band played theater engagements in the small towns of New York,
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 17, 2009
            According to "Fats In Fact", for a few months prior to July 1942 (not 1940/41) the augmented band played theater engagements "in the small towns of New York, Massachusetts, Connecticut and New Jersey".
            This band indeed included Bill Coleman and Jaques Butler, but also Bugs Hamilton who was "leader of the trumpet section".
            Bob Carroll is mentioned on tenor sax and Herb Flemming on trombone but no mention is made of Franz Jackson, Lonnie Simmons or Al Washington.
            The band included the other members of the "Rhythm" as well.
            Hans Eekhoff

            --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, yves francois <aprestitine@...> wrote:
            >
            > Warren     I do know that in New England around 1940/41 Fats Waller used an augmented band with two much better trumpets than Bugs Hamilton could ever hope to be - Jacques Butler and Bill Coleman. Franz Jackson, Lonnie Simmons  and Al Washington all told me of touring with Fats, wish you asked me this 15 or 20 years ago, they were all alive then (and all three actually enjoyed talking about it, will check w Franz's daughter if he wrote anything). Simmons was in 1938 (even recorded a solo on "Scronch"). Franz and Al were in later outfits, but not the one Bill and Jacques was in (as per Bill's memories on his book), sorry I have no further data, but see if anything shows up, I certainly will look some more.   Checking the discography, Fats was in NYC in May 1941, and recorded with a 13 piece big band in Hollywood in July 1 1941 data follows:John Hamilton, Bob Williams, Herman Autrey on trumpets, George Wilson and Ray Hogan trombones, Dave McRae and
            > Jimmy Powell altos, Gene sedric and Bob Carroll tenors, Fats on piano/vocals, Al casey guitar, Cedric Wallace bass and yes, Slick Jones on drums.    It would seem logical to me since these are local 802 (NYC) musicians in 1941 that this was the touring band that was both going west in May 1941 and playing in August 1 1941 in whatever city your ticket was from (it would make sense to use the musicians to go back home to NYC, since most of those musicians were working in NYC a few months later).  Now a query: does anyone know if there are there any broadcasts of Fats with these mid sized "augmented" rhythm or the big band, the few mid and large band records seems to inspire Fats to considerably better music, but then I would say having a couple more horns and somewhat better songs may of made the mundanity of recording the same formula over and over agin a little less tedious - I would love to hear a Butler, a Coleman, a Carroll or a Jackson playing
            > with Fats - I happen to like Sedric a lot, but it would be nice to hear some fresh talent w Fats ...Yves Francois
            >
            > --- On Sun, 8/16/09, ikey100 <wlmoorman3@...> wrote:
            >
            > From: ikey100 <wlmoorman3@...>
            > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Fats Waller 1941 touring band?
            > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Sunday, August 16, 2009, 3:45 PM
            >
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            > In researching Slick Jones, a question has arisen about how often Fats' group, His Rhythm, would accompany him on tour. Obviously Fats sometimes was booked solo or with local accompaniments, and I have also seen references to Fats touring with bigger groups than the Rhythm. I just found a ticket for a show on Aug. 1, 1941 that says "with his 13 piece orchestra". Unfortunately I don't have a copy of "Fats in Fact" but the Kirkeby book mentions this long cross-country tour, which culminated in two weeks at the Paramount in Los Angeles with Eddie Anderson, and the Vance book mentions Waller's fifteen piece band getting stranded in Kansas City in May 1941. Anyway, my questions are, is it known if the Rhythm was on this tour, perhaps as the core of a bigger group, or was this another aggregation, or was it more likely a local band (which in the case of the ticket, would probably be Locklayer's band, with which Jones had started his career).
            > Any insight as to the likelihood that Jones was on this gig will be greatly appreciated.
            >
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            > Warren
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            > Recent Activity
            >
            >
            >  3
            > New Members
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Visit Your Group
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! News
            > Fashion News
            > What's the word on
            > fashion and style?
            >
            > Drive Traffic
            > Sponsored Search
            > can help increase
            > your site traffic.
            >
            > You can help Support Our Troops At Home DonorsChoose.org
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > .
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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          • ikey100
            Thank you, Yves Francois; so that indicates that the usual Rhythm members were indeed the core of the bigger touring group. I had checked the discography, but
            Message 5 of 6 , Aug 17, 2009
              Thank you, Yves Francois; so that indicates that the usual Rhythm members were indeed the core of the bigger touring group. I had checked the discography, but overlooked the larger personnel and location on the July date. In 1941, Fats made recording sessions every other month until a gap from July to October, so I had assumed that the Los Angeles Paramount gig was during that time, but with a recording session in Hollywood in July, it appears that it was actually in mid summer, and the show I mentioned was afterwards, probably on the return leg.

              It would indeed be great to hear airchecks of the expanded group, and it's a bit surprising to me if there are none. I can understand promoters of that time desiring a conventional larger group for these shows, and one would think the band used barely sketched head arrangements. Soloists of the calibre of Bill Coleman might have been given space to shine, although just as Jellyroll Morton proclaimed about his expanded-group territory dates, there is no doubt the crowds were there to see the man at the piano. Judging by the apparent personnel of this tour, however, it seems the added men were extra section players more than featured players.

              Thanks again,

              Warren

              --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, yves francois <aprestitine@...> wrote:
              >
              > Checking the discography, Fats was in NYC in May 1941, and recorded with a 13 piece big band in Hollywood in July 1 1941 data follows:John Hamilton, Bob Williams, Herman Autrey on trumpets, George Wilson and Ray Hogan trombones, Dave McRae and
              > Jimmy Powell altos, Gene sedric and Bob Carroll tenors, Fats on piano/vocals, Al casey guitar, Cedric Wallace bass and yes, Slick Jones on drums.    It would seem logical to me since these are local 802 (NYC) musicians in 1941 that this was the touring band that was both going west in May 1941 and playing in August 1 1941 in whatever city your ticket was from (it would make sense to use the musicians to go back home to NYC, since most of those musicians were working in NYC a few months later).  Now a query: does anyone know if there are there any broadcasts of Fats with these mid sized "augmented" rhythm or the big band, the few mid and large band records seems to inspire Fats to considerably better music, but then I would say having a couple more horns and somewhat better songs may of made the mundanity of recording the same formula over and over agin a little less tedious - I would love to hear a Butler, a Coleman, a Carroll or a Jackson playing with Fats - I happen to like Sedric a lot, but it would be nice to hear some fresh talent w Fats ...Yves Francois
            • John O
              from Fats In Fact p 258: Two entries in the International Musician for November 1941 may relate to engagements on the tour mentioned above. The reports are
              Message 6 of 6 , Aug 17, 2009
                from 'Fats In Fact' p 258:

                "Two entries in the International Musician for November 1941 may relate to engagements on the tour mentioned above. The reports are from Local 123, Richmond, Virginia and Local 543, Baltimore, Maryland. The first gives: Fats Waller, Eugene Sedric, David McRae, Theodore McCord, Herman Autrey, J.B. Hamilton, Herbert Flemming, George Wilson, Albert Casey, Cedric Williams, Wilmore Jones, Bob Williams and Jimmy Powell (all of 802) and the second notes all the above names but substitutes Cedric Wallace for Cedric Williams which suggests that the latter is simply an error. Note that Slick Jones is still present."

                --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "ikey100" <wlmoorman3@...> wrote:
                >
                > I just found a ticket for a show on Aug. 1, 1941 that says "with his 13 piece orchestra". Unfortunately I don't have a copy of "Fats in Fact" but the Kirkeby book mentions this long cross-country tour, which culminated in two weeks at the Paramount in Los Angeles with Eddie Anderson, and the Vance book mentions Waller's fifteen piece band getting stranded in Kansas City in May 1941. Anyway, my questions are, is it known if the Rhythm was on this tour, perhaps as the core of a bigger group, or was this another aggregation, or was it more likely a local band (which in the case of the ticket, would probably be Locklayer's band, with which Jones had started his career). Any insight as to the likelihood that Jones was on this gig will be greatly appreciated.
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