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Re: [RedHotJazz] The return of Flo was: Re: Arnett Nelson

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  • Michael Rader
    In reply to scottlededoo ... Could you quote an example where King in fact does solo in a similar style? The starting point of the Flo debate was his
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 3, 2009
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      In reply to scottlededoo
      > I think it is probably Clifford "Clarinet" KIng, an other reed from
      > the Wade gang, on Eva Taylor's Red Hot Flo. Fine playing and a much
      > purer style than Arnett. He is however on a number of New York items
      > from that period which I hope to elucidate in an Appendix to CHicago
      > Swingers.

      Could you quote an example where King in fact does solo in a similar style? The starting point of the "Flo" debate was his similarity to Johnny Dodds. While Dave Brown is convinced that it is Arville Harris, other names have been discussed including Carmelo Jari. It is probably fair to say that we came to no unanimous decision and that King didn't come up as an alternative, maybe due to lack of accessible examples of verified work by the man.

      Michael Rader

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    • David Brown
      My belief that this is Arville rests on comparison of three solos Red Hot Flo , Leroy Tibbs One O clock Blues and Waller Harlem Fuss in which I find near
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 3, 2009
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        My belief that this is Arville rests on comparison of three solos 'Red Hot
        Flo', Leroy Tibbs 'One O'clock Blues' and Waller 'Harlem Fuss' in which I
        find near identical phrasing and sound.

        I will ship MP3 extracts to anybody interested.

        Dave






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      • Michael Rader
        Following Chris Hillman s proposal that the clarinet on Red Hot Flo was Clifford King, I checked my copy of Rust, which only gives him for several sessions
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 3, 2009
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          Following Chris Hillman's proposal that the clarinet on "Red Hot Flo" was Clifford King, I checked my copy of Rust, which only gives him for several sessions by Doc Cook(e) and a period with Eddie South. The Cookes mainly have Jimmie Noone as clarinet soloist and the Souths are mainly "ethnically" oriented with little opportunity for clarinet solos. From what little there is, I would say that King is a possibility on "Flo", but remain unconvinced.

          So, is there any more work by Mr. King on record?

          Michael Rader
        • yves francois
          Michael et all   Glad to see this come up again, I like Red Hot Flo, and hope you are having a good day.  Clifford Clarinet King was a consideration of
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 4, 2009
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            Michael et all   Glad to see this come up again, I like Red Hot Flo, and hope you are having a good day.
             Clifford "Clarinet" King was a consideration of mine, but I did not even think to voice an opinion, I thought he was always based in Chicago 9and made it to Europe w South). He does solo a little hot jazz clarinet in the South's sessions from 1931 (I decided to give the times so you can pinpoint the moments of jazz solos) "Marcheta" than "Hejre Kati" 78 (Victor 22847, his work on "Hijre Kati" is "straight"), and more titles on the Eddie South CD "Black Gypsy" (play "Marcheta" 1.46 in track #13 on the Black Gypsy CD), very good clarinet solo, also check "Mama yo Quiero Una Novina" (track #16) 2.20 in (titles rec 1931 in Chicago), 1933 he recorded 3 jazzier titles with South, only "Nagasaki" (on the CD 1.04 in for 8 bars) shows a clarinet in the NOLA style lower register, there is almost no blowing room for King on this date, too bad, one has to get his best work playing ethnic songs. BTW King plays bass clarinet on the 1929 titles recorded in
            Europe.    Now the question arises, did King spend time in NYC in the spring of 1927, I thought he was with Cook at the time. I am OK with Harris being Flo, since there are similarities to the solos, and can live with the fact that maybe he declined badly as the bootleg booze took him away from inspiration, still " ... Flo" would be his best example of his playing, if it were he. King, on the other hand, was a terrific player, like Jejo, and closer to the NOLA playing than Mr Jejo . Again, recording jazz for jazz sake was NOT the norm of the day, and that's too bad, isn't it (but then major labels rarely care for jazz for jazz's sake)?   Happy birthday to Louis BTW ...Yves Francois

            --- On Tue, 8/4/09, Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@...> wrote:

            From: Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@...>
            Subject: [RedHotJazz] The return of Flo was: Re: Arnett Nelson
            To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2009, 1:38 AM













             





            Following Chris Hillman's proposal that the clarinet on "Red Hot Flo" was Clifford King, I checked my copy of Rust, which only gives him for several sessions by Doc Cook(e) and a period with Eddie South. The Cookes mainly have Jimmie Noone as clarinet soloist and the Souths are mainly "ethnically" oriented with little opportunity for clarinet solos. From what little there is, I would say that King is a possibility on "Flo", but remain unconvinced.



            So, is there any more work by Mr. King on record?



            Michael Rader















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          • Michael Rader
            Hello Yves and indeed happy remembrances of Louis, I think I listened to the samples you mention (maybe with one exception)and was slightly frustrated by the
            Message 5 of 6 , Aug 4, 2009
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              Hello Yves and indeed happy remembrances of Louis,

              I think I listened to the samples you mention (maybe with one exception)and was slightly frustrated by the lack of solos. However Chris Hillman hints there might be more, probably, judging by Rust, not previously identified as King.

              I also see that King is listed for the South Cheloni broadcasts. Has anyone who has them ever listened closely to King?

              Michael Rader
            • David Brown
              Hello Yves Nice to have you back. You know I am convinced on Arville but agree his varying standards. His playing of almost the identical solo is far better on
              Message 6 of 6 , Aug 5, 2009
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                Hello Yves

                Nice to have you back. You know I am convinced on Arville but agree his
                varying standards. His playing of almost the identical solo is far better on
                the Waller than on the Tibbs and he is even better on 'Flo'.

                Just plumbed the Souths and there is very little clarinet here to go on but
                what I hear is much farer from 'Flo' than Arville. A much straighter player
                who in obligato on 'No More Blues' and elsewhere in ensemble sounds much
                nearer to Noone than to Dodds which is, if King, not surprising as he sat
                next to Noone with Doc Cook. The only solo I can find 'Marcheta' also
                seems to me to be an essay at Noone. But caution, I only have King as
                possible/probable here. I hear no clarinet on 'Nagasaki'.

                Also what would put King in NYC for 'Flo' ?

                Also Clarence had his own stable of musicians, including Arville, to whom he
                was loyal. Why would he import a foreigner ?

                Dave





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