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Re: [RedHotJazz] Louis Armstrong "Got A Brand New Suit " - alternate take?

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  • Michael Rader
    Agustin Thanks for your trouble. Can you (or anyone else) comment on the comparative merits of these reissues, i.e. the Mosaic, the Frémeaux and the
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 2, 2009
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      Agustin

      Thanks for your trouble. Can you (or anyone else) comment on the comparative merits of these reissues, i.e. the Mosaic, the Frémeaux and the Ambassador? One comment on the Mosaic homepage criticises the Mosaic for missing a take of "Old Man Mose", i.e. including another take twice by mistake. I have a couple of other Frémeaux Louis, but am somewhat undecided about the quality of the transfers: one of the blues accompaniments at least has some digital artefacts. I also strongly suspect that Frémeaux uses previous reissues rather than going back to source, but does anyone know for certain?

      Michael Rader

      > Michael
      >
      > I've contacted Armstrong authority Ricky Riccardi with your query.
      > Here's his reply:
      >
      > <<<Regarding "Got a Bran' New Suit," the two takes are indeed
      > different so Fremeaux is in the wrong. On take A, 27 seconds in, Pops
      > sings, "She's the reason I got a bran' new tie" with a slight pause
      > between the words "reason" and "I." On the issued take, also at 27
      > seconds in, Pops sings "She's the reason WHY I got a bran' new tie,"
      > no pause.>>>
      >
      > Best regards,
      > Agustín Pérez
      > ------------------------------------------------
      > Mule Walk & Jazz Talk: http://thereisjazzbeforetrane.blogspot.com/
      >
      > --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@...> wrote:
      >
      > There seems to be a surge of interest in Louis Armstrong's mid-30s
      > and later Decca recordings: Mosaic recently released a complete set
      > of the 1930s and 40s Deccas and the French Frémeaux label has reached
      > Volume 7 of its complete Louis which covers the early Deccas. In the
      > background, there has always been the set reissued in Sweden by
      > Ambassador.
      >
      > One quirk of Ambassador has been to withdraw old volumes of the
      > series to replace them with new versions once these have been
      > discovered. Thus there is a new version of volume 1 which was made to
      > include an alternate take of "Got A Brand New Suit", presumably "
      > borrowed" from Volume 3 of a GRP/Decca series which contained this
      > item for the first time.
      >
      > While the Mosaic set is said to contain this alternate, the Frémeaux
      > definitely doesn't, hinting that it is identical to the previously
      > issued master, simply bearing a different take letter. This is stated
      > definitely for "I'm In The Mood for Love", adding "The same applies
      > to You Are my Lucky Star and Got a Brand New Suit."
      >
      > Can anyone clarify whether this is so.
      >
      > Michael Rader
      >
      > ..
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >


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    • lastofthebarons
      Having purchased the Frémeaux sets, I m awaiting delivery of Vol. 7 as I type, I have to say that I have been very pleased with the transfers. Overall, the
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 3, 2009
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        Having purchased the Frémeaux sets, I'm awaiting delivery of Vol. 7 as
        I type, I have to say that I have been very pleased with the
        transfers. Overall, the transfers have been very well done. In
        particular, the King Oliver sides have a clarity that I have not heard
        before.

        I find that the biggest problem with transfers in general is that they
        tend to over clean the signal, thereby muddying the sound to some
        extent. Some of my LPs have better transfers than modern CDs and I
        have, consequently, been able to transfer these to CD with a better
        sound quality than commercial CDs.

        Without re-listening, and that is no chore, to all the Blues
        accompaniments, I don't recall that I found a problem. Which ones in
        particular do you mean?

        Best wishes,

        LotB

        On 3 Jul 2009, at 07:52, Michael Rader wrote:

        > Agustin
        >
        > Thanks for your trouble. Can you (or anyone else) comment on the
        > comparative merits of these reissues, i.e. the Mosaic, the Frémeaux
        > and the Ambassador? One comment on the Mosaic homepage criticises
        > the Mosaic for missing a take of "Old Man Mose", i.e. including
        > another take twice by mistake. I have a couple of other Frémeaux
        > Louis, but am somewhat undecided about the quality of the transfers:
        > one of the blues accompaniments at least has some digital artefacts.
        > I also strongly suspect that Frémeaux uses previous reissues rather
        > than going back to source, but does anyone know for certain?
        >
        > Michael Rader
        >
        >> Michael
        >>
        >> I've contacted Armstrong authority Ricky Riccardi with your query.
        >> Here's his reply:
        >>
        >> <<<Regarding "Got a Bran' New Suit," the two takes are indeed
        >> different so Fremeaux is in the wrong. On take A, 27 seconds in, Pops
        >> sings, "She's the reason I got a bran' new tie" with a slight pause
        >> between the words "reason" and "I." On the issued take, also at 27
        >> seconds in, Pops sings "She's the reason WHY I got a bran' new tie,"
        >> no pause.>>>
        >>
        >> Best regards,
        >> Agustín Pérez
        >> ------------------------------------------------
        >> Mule Walk & Jazz Talk: http://thereisjazzbeforetrane.blogspot.com/
        >>
        >> --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@...> wrote:
        >>
        >> There seems to be a surge of interest in Louis Armstrong's mid-30s
        >> and later Decca recordings: Mosaic recently released a complete set
        >> of the 1930s and 40s Deccas and the French Frémeaux label has reached
        >> Volume 7 of its complete Louis which covers the early Deccas. In the
        >> background, there has always been the set reissued in Sweden by
        >> Ambassador.
        >>
        >> One quirk of Ambassador has been to withdraw old volumes of the
        >> series to replace them with new versions once these have been
        >> discovered. Thus there is a new version of volume 1 which was made to
        >> include an alternate take of "Got A Brand New Suit", presumably "
        >> borrowed" from Volume 3 of a GRP/Decca series which contained this
        >> item for the first time.
        >>
        >> While the Mosaic set is said to contain this alternate, the Frémeaux
        >> definitely doesn't, hinting that it is identical to the previously
        >> issued master, simply bearing a different take letter. This is stated
        >> definitely for "I'm In The Mood for Love", adding "The same applies
        >> to You Are my Lucky Star and Got a Brand New Suit."
        >>
        >> Can anyone clarify whether this is so.
        >>
        >> Michael Rader
        >>
        >> ..
        >>
        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        > ______________________________________________________
        > GRATIS für alle WEB.DE-Nutzer: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT!
        > Jetzt freischalten unter http://movieflat.web.de
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • Michael Rader
        Dear LoTB, The track which particularly distressed me was Mess Katie Mess . I have the French CBS LP series of Louis with the Blues singers and transferred
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 3, 2009
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          Dear LoTB,

          The track which particularly distressed me was "Mess Katie Mess". I have the French CBS LP series of Louis with the Blues singers and transferred these to CD myself with only a little de-popping (I "silenced" the pops by reducing their altitude to zero which isn't noticable since pops are only milliseconds although they seem longer). My own transfer sounds rather better than the Frémeaux version which I strongly suspects uses the same source. Maybe it's a legacy of the now-defunct Masters of Jazz series, which I unfortunately largely missed.

          If you have the "Off the Record" or Retrieval CDs of the Olivers, would you rate the Frémeaux higher?

          Best

          Michael

          > Having purchased the Frémeaux sets, I'm awaiting delivery of Vol. 7
          > as
          > I type, I have to say that I have been very pleased with the
          > transfers. Overall, the transfers have been very well done. In
          > particular, the King Oliver sides have a clarity that I have not
          > heard
          > before.
          >
          > I find that the biggest problem with transfers in general is that
          > they
          > tend to over clean the signal, thereby muddying the sound to some
          > extent. Some of my LPs have better transfers than modern CDs and I
          > have, consequently, been able to transfer these to CD with a better
          > sound quality than commercial CDs.
          >
          > Without re-listening, and that is no chore, to all the Blues
          > accompaniments, I don't recall that I found a problem. Which ones in
          > particular do you mean?
          >
          > Best wishes,
          >
          > LotB
          >
          > On 3 Jul 2009, at 07:52, Michael Rader wrote:
          >
          > > Agustin
          > >
          > > Thanks for your trouble. Can you (or anyone else) comment on the
          > > comparative merits of these reissues, i.e. the Mosaic, the Frémeaux
          > > and the Ambassador? One comment on the Mosaic homepage criticises
          > > the Mosaic for missing a take of "Old Man Mose", i.e. including
          > > another take twice by mistake. I have a couple of other Frémeaux
          > > Louis, but am somewhat undecided about the quality of the transfers:
          >
          > > one of the blues accompaniments at least has some digital artefacts.
          >
          > > I also strongly suspect that Frémeaux uses previous reissues rather
          > > than going back to source, but does anyone know for certain?
          > >
          > > Michael Rader
          > >
          > >> Michael
          > >>
          > >> I've contacted Armstrong authority Ricky Riccardi with your query.
          > >> Here's his reply:
          > >>
          > >> <<<Regarding "Got a Bran' New Suit," the two takes are indeed
          > >> different so Fremeaux is in the wrong. On take A, 27 seconds in,
          > Pops
          > >> sings, "She's the reason I got a bran' new tie" with a slight pause
          > >> between the words "reason" and "I." On the issued take, also at 27
          > >> seconds in, Pops sings "She's the reason WHY I got a bran' new tie,
          > "
          > >> no pause.>>>
          > >>
          > >> Best regards,
          > >> Agustín Pérez
          > >> ------------------------------------------------
          > >> Mule Walk & Jazz Talk: http://thereisjazzbeforetrane.blogspot.com/
          > >>
          > >> --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@...> wrote:
          > >>
          > >> There seems to be a surge of interest in Louis Armstrong's mid-30s
          > >> and later Decca recordings: Mosaic recently released a complete set
          > >> of the 1930s and 40s Deccas and the French Frémeaux label has
          > reached
          > >> Volume 7 of its complete Louis which covers the early Deccas. In
          > the
          > >> background, there has always been the set reissued in Sweden by
          > >> Ambassador.
          > >>
          > >> One quirk of Ambassador has been to withdraw old volumes of the
          > >> series to replace them with new versions once these have been
          > >> discovered. Thus there is a new version of volume 1 which was made
          > to
          > >> include an alternate take of "Got A Brand New Suit", presumably "
          > >> borrowed" from Volume 3 of a GRP/Decca series which contained this
          > >> item for the first time.
          > >>
          > >> While the Mosaic set is said to contain this alternate, the
          > Frémeaux
          > >> definitely doesn't, hinting that it is identical to the previously
          > >> issued master, simply bearing a different take letter. This is
          > stated
          > >> definitely for "I'm In The Mood for Love", adding "The same applies
          > >> to You Are my Lucky Star and Got a Brand New Suit."
          > >>
          > >> Can anyone clarify whether this is so.
          > >>
          > >> Michael Rader
          > >>
          > >> ..
          > >>
          > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >>
          > >>
          > >
          > >
          > > ______________________________________________________
          > > GRATIS für alle WEB.DE-Nutzer: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT!
          > > Jetzt freischalten unter http://movieflat.web.de
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >


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        • lastofthebarons
          I see what you mean, Michael. I actually thought that there was a very bad case of drop-outs. It is an effect that I noticed when I started transferring my LPs
          Message 4 of 6 , Jul 3, 2009
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            I see what you mean, Michael. I actually thought that there was a very
            bad case of drop-outs. It is an effect that I noticed when I started
            transferring my LPs and EPs to CD. What I discovered was that as I was
            using a stereo setup, I was getting two channels of mono sound. There
            were occasions when a click or spit occurred in one channel and not
            the other. This didn't cause a problem. The main problem occurred when
            the fault appeared equally in both channels. If I then cleaned it up,
            either separately or together, there would be a pop.

            The software I was using is Amadeus Pro.

            I found that the answer was to discard one of the channels, the one
            with most problems. That way, the clicks that appeared only in the
            other channel were immediately banished. After that, almost all the
            problems I had with pops disappeared.

            Another programme which I have found to be very good indeed has the
            snappy title of ClickRepair. Further information can be found at:-

            http://wwwmaths.anu.edu.au/~briand/sound/

            It is the work of a retired Australian mathematician.

            I do have the Retreival CDs as well as the Frémeaux and it is a tricky
            question to answer. Overall, I prefer the Frémeaux but would say that
            there are tracks that I prefer on the Retreival issue. I think that,
            in the end, it will come down to personal preference and I don't think
            that one can be too dissmissive of either. It can also come down as to
            whether one is listening through the computer or through a good Hi-Fi
            set-up, in which case the answer as to which is the better restoration
            can be different.

            Best wishes,

            L o t B



            On 3 Jul 2009, at 11:25, Michael Rader wrote:

            > Dear LoTB,
            >
            > The track which particularly distressed me was "Mess Katie Mess". I
            > have the French CBS LP series of Louis with the Blues singers and
            > transferred these to CD myself with only a little de-popping (I
            > "silenced" the pops by reducing their altitude to zero which isn't
            > noticable since pops are only milliseconds although they seem
            > longer). My own transfer sounds rather better than the Frémeaux
            > version which I strongly suspects uses the same source. Maybe it's a
            > legacy of the now-defunct Masters of Jazz series, which I
            > unfortunately largely missed.
            >
            > If you have the "Off the Record" or Retrieval CDs of the Olivers,
            > would you rate the Frémeaux higher?
            >
            > Best
            >
            > Michael
            >
            >> Having purchased the Frémeaux sets, I'm awaiting delivery of Vol. 7
            >> as
            >> I type, I have to say that I have been very pleased with the
            >> transfers. Overall, the transfers have been very well done. In
            >> particular, the King Oliver sides have a clarity that I have not
            >> heard
            >> before.
            >>
            >> I find that the biggest problem with transfers in general is that
            >> they
            >> tend to over clean the signal, thereby muddying the sound to some
            >> extent. Some of my LPs have better transfers than modern CDs and I
            >> have, consequently, been able to transfer these to CD with a better
            >> sound quality than commercial CDs.
            >>
            >> Without re-listening, and that is no chore, to all the Blues
            >> accompaniments, I don't recall that I found a problem. Which ones in
            >> particular do you mean?
            >>
            >> Best wishes,
            >>
            >> LotB
          • David Brown
            Michael and everybody. Just hit Got A -- and certainly a genuine alt. Foolproof way to play as simultaneously as possible and astounding the variety in
            Message 5 of 6 , Jul 6, 2009
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              Michael and everybody.

              Just hit 'Got A --' and certainly a genuine alt. Foolproof way to play as
              simultaneously as possible and astounding the variety in both trumpet and
              vocal, the phrasing of the latter being almost totally at variance between
              the takes. Indeed one of the joys of the Deccas is the vocals. Trumpet in
              both takes is majestic but very different but no high note grandstanding.
              However, as often, the supporting players and arrangements are weak.

              The dismissal of these sides was long ago consigned to the garbage can of
              Jazz Puritanism.

              I recall my previous quote by Max Harrison on Louis' infinite variety.
              Coincidentally he also writes on the Deccas in EJR-1 finding them in several
              ways superior to the Hot5/7s and concluding in ref. to 'the grandeur of its
              conception' :-

              'one can think of little other jazz which, the passionate emotional
              expression of its truest moment notwithstanding, conveys a comparable
              feeling of being above the battle.'

              Best wishes here too Dan and you can now look forward to many happy years
              ahead digging the treasure of the Louis Deccas.

              Dave





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Howard Rye
              One take of Old Man Mose certainly is missing fromn the original pressing of the Mosaic set but they sent out a replacement CD to purchasers, which is correct.
              Message 6 of 6 , Jul 7, 2009
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                One take of Old Man Mose certainly is missing fromn the original pressing of
                the Mosaic set but they sent out a replacement CD to purchasers, which is
                correct. Curiously, I can't detect any physical difference between the two
                pressings. The only way to tell them apart appears to be to play the
                versions of Old Man Mose and see whether you've got three different ones.

                If anyone needs to do this, identifying differences for the three takes are
                as follows. The issues quoted are the ones I used for the original work,
                which was published in Names & Numbers 23. The article has identifying
                differences for all Victor and Decca takes then available. It is more than
                likely that Mosaic are correct about which of the takes is -D and which is
                -E.

                I also think it is more than likely that if the fourth take existed Mosaic
                would have found it. It may be that there is a physically different but
                aurally identical take on some copies of Decca 622. This may have been
                reported in good faith in the pre-tape era when there was no easy way to
                compare your record with somebody else's to find out if they were really
                different.

                60156 -A (Neatwork RP2020); -D (MCA(J) MCA3063); -E (Neatwork RP2020)
                -A Vocal preceded by ensemble playing.
                -D & -E Vocal preceded by piano intro, trumpet solo, and piano
                transition
                Last line of Armstrong¹s solo vocal:
                -D But after lookin¹ through that window, hunh, I ain¹t gonna do
                that no more!
                -E Boy, after lookin¹ through that window, hunh, I ain¹t gonna do
                that no more!
                -D & -E are reversed on Mosaic MD7-243.

                60156-B or -C which is alleged to be on Decca 622 has not been available but
                it is reported to be structured as take -A. It is not included on Mosaic
                MD7-243.


                This is what I have for Bran' New Suit:

                60024 -A (Neatwork RP2029); -D (MCA(J) MCA3063)
                Fourth to sixth lines of vocal:
                -A She¹s the reason I got a bran¹ new tie and a brand new suit,
                Oh, when I¹m with her, I got to look my best,
                Put on my tan shoes, grey spats, and double-breasted best!
                -D She¹s the reason why I got a bran¹ new tie and a brand new
                suit,
                When I¹m with her, got to look my best,
                Mmm, put on my tan shoes, grey spats, double-breasted best!

                The originally issued (-D) take is designated as a plain take on Mosaic
                MD7-243.





                on 03/07/2009 07:52, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:

                > Agustin
                >
                > Thanks for your trouble. Can you (or anyone else) comment on the comparative
                > merits of these reissues, i.e. the Mosaic, the Frémeaux and the Ambassador?
                > One comment on the Mosaic homepage criticises the Mosaic for missing a take of
                > "Old Man Mose", i.e. including another take twice by mistake. I have a couple
                > of other Frémeaux Louis, but am somewhat undecided about the quality of the
                > transfers: one of the blues accompaniments at least has some digital
                > artefacts. I also strongly suspect that Frémeaux uses previous reissues rather
                > than going back to source, but does anyone know for certain?
                >
                > Michael Rader
                >
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