Re: Bernard Wolfe, Mezzrow, and Really the Blues
- --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Standish" <mojohand@...> wrote:
>I'm surprised that Tony should lump Ken together with Chris, Lonnie, Monty, and Ottilie. That's a bit like lumping Muggsy, Pee Wee, Jack, and Eddie with the Firehouse Five Plus Two.
> Well, I'm chuffed that Gilbert enjoyed Robert's description of the Trad
> scene in England!
> I'm sure that Ken, Chris, Sandy, Humph, Wally, Lonnie, Cuff, Mick, Alex,
> Monty, Al, Colin, Sonny, John R.T., Cy, Ottilie and all the others will be
> overjoyed to be written off as lacking subtlety, skill and beauty.
> Just like poor old Mezz?
> Tony Standish
Ken never played "trad". Neither did Humph, and nor does Cuff.
The over-rated Alex, like Mick (whose rather good band was somewhat overburdened with George), played a music largely derived from Eddie - as did the excellent Freddie. Archie, I think, played with all three.
Wally, Sandy, and Al all turned to the mainstream. So did Bruce, who certainly never played trad.
John R.T. played alongside the wonderful Alan Swainston in the Temps.
Colin left Ken to join Alan and, according to Ken, was sacked after a fortnight.
Cy gave up a career imitating Boyd Senter and Wilton Crawley to go and stand on his head in India.
That leaves us with Terry, Acker, Kenny, and the execrable Max.
PS: Tommer - thank you very much for your comments. I can't do justice to them this morning, but will compose a reply and post it to the list this week.
- Sadly, I have to report that ³the sweeter side of King Keppard² was a
discographical misattribution on which Rudi Blesh built a flight of fancy.
This particular piece of tosh is to be found in the Postscript¹ appended to
later editions of Blesh¹s Shining Trumpets¹. Keppard isn¹t even on the
record cited as proto-Beiderbecke, Doc Cook¹s I Got Worry¹. The trumpeter
is probably Elwood Graham, whose presence is confirmed by his file
attribution as a member of the vocal trio on Hum and Strum¹. As the date
is 1928 comment on the likely direction of influence is probably
superfluous. This is a showband doing what showbands do (giving the public
what it wants). It would be an exaggeration to call I Got Worry² a
Whiteman-imitation but they are aiming at the same territory and Graham
plays in the style he or the arranger considered appropriate for that job. I
seriously doubt that anything more compliacted is happening.
Incidentally despite what discographies say about the personnel of this
session, Doc Poston is certainly present since the files name him as one of
the vocal trio too, unless there really was a musician called ³Postum² in
on 16/06/2009 18:01, Tommer at tommersl@... wrote:
>Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
> --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com> ,
> "Tommer" <tommersl@...> wrote:
>> > I didn't read this Murray but IMO improvisation on Blues texture (hot) is
>> different than improvising on the something that wraps the Blues (sweet).
>> > IMO Louis' "West End Blues" the piano is sweet. They also don't swing much.
>> On the other hand the piano on Johnny Dodds' "New St. Louis Blues" is hot and
>> they swing. I was reffering to the piano but it is more or less what I feel
>> about the whole of each of the two.
>> > What I prefer? The hot!
>> > Tommer
> I have to add something accordingly. I think that one of the problems in
> understanding among Jazz listeners the connection between Jazz and Blues is
> that because unfair argues. Like, saying anything Louis did was hot which is
> not true. What those that like "West End Blues" is the virtuoso trumpet thing,
> but in terms of hot music it is not so much.
> Why I mentioned this is complicated to explain, first because I saw that West
> End is regarded by Albert and I am sure others think the same as one of the
> two (with Singin the Blues) most important records of the 1920's, and for me
> this record is a symbol to the end of the most powerful Blues era in Jazz,
> because this as well as Singin are records that goes from collective efforts
> on Blues texture to virtuoso use of Blues for other things.
> And I don;t mean 12-bar Blues, because 12-bar can play without improvisation
> on the texture, as much as other forms can be played inside the texture.
> What I believe is that because assuming everything Louis did was "hot" is why
> Rudi Blesh claimed that Bix wasn't influenced by Louis but, he was influenced
> by the sweeter side of King Keppard.
> Because assuming everything Louis was doing at the time was hot, causes a
> problem, how can a always hot musician influence so much a musician Blesh
> believed was sweet?
> And this is what confuse people! Because there are romantic descriptions to
> deal with this.
> So, Murray omitting Oliver or for that same matter any list is questionnable,
> at the time Bunk and George Lewis were rediscovered they weren't as able to
> deal with Blues texture too much. That era is over since the 1920's are over.
> But, Murray could say that on Bunk because Bunk was from the old times!
> However, Oliver had Jazz Babies Blues and Alligator and Krooked Blues and
> Canal Street Blues, and other that were some of the best Blues in Jazz ever
> recorded IMO. I don't believe he omitted Oliver, maybe he didn't hear the
> right records or just forgot about him or had a short selevtive or
> representative list.
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