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Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: Cicero Thomas

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  • Howard Rye
    Cicero Thomas is named as a member of this Walter Barnes band at this time in Down Beat for 1 June 1940 (according to Index To Jazz). I thought I had already
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 6, 2009
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      Cicero Thomas is named as a member of this Walter Barnes band at this time
      in Down Beat for 1 June 1940 (according to Index To Jazz). I thought I had
      already posted this information but perhaps I dreamt it. As I don¹t have
      immediate access to this issue of Down Beat I cannot confirm the provenance
      of the data.


      on 06/04/2009 07:41, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:

      >
      >
      >
      > McCarthy isn't very helpful on the last matter: he lists Thomas as "Lawrence"
      > in the personnel, but discusses the recorded music for Lawrence "Cicero"
      > Thomas without indicating the reason for equating Lawrence with Cicero (if you
      > see what I mean). It would be helpful to know where and when Cicero Thomas was
      > first mentioned in print.
      >
      > Michael Rader,
      > Karlsruhe,
      > Germany
      >
      >
      > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com> ,
      > "jtdyamond" <fearfeasa@...> wrote:
      >> >
      >> > As I recall, Chris Hillman suggested that derivation to me some time in
      >> > the 1980s. Unfortunately, I've lost touch with him, so cannot ask him to
      >> > remind me about it. Anyone got an e-mail address for him?
      >> >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >>
      >
      >
      > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
      > howard@...
      > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Michael Rader
      You might have mentioned this before, but I didn t remember whether it was as *Cicero* or as *Lawrence*. Another question is where the suggestion for Cicero
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 6, 2009
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        You might have mentioned this before, but I didn't remember whether it was as *Cicero* or as *Lawrence*. Another question is where the suggestion for Cicero Thomas as an accompanist for a Sippie Wallace came from. Chris Hillman now has Dave Nelson as a likely candidate.

        Michael Rader

        > Cicero Thomas is named as a member of this Walter Barnes band at this
        > time
        > in Down Beat for 1 June 1940 (according to Index To Jazz). I thought
        > I had
        > already posted this information but perhaps I dreamt it. As I don¹t
        > have
        > immediate access to this issue of Down Beat I cannot confirm the
        > provenance
        > of the data.
        >
        > on 06/04/2009 07:41, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:
        >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > McCarthy isn't very helpful on the last matter: he lists Thomas as "
        > Lawrence"
        > > in the personnel, but discusses the recorded music for Lawrence "
        > Cicero"
        > > Thomas without indicating the reason for equating Lawrence with
        > Cicero (if you
        > > see what I mean). It would be helpful to know where and when Cicero
        > Thomas was
        > > first mentioned in print.
        > >
        > > Michael Rader,
        > > Karlsruhe,
        > > Germany
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.
        > com> ,
        > > "jtdyamond" <fearfeasa@...> wrote:
        > >> >
        > >> > As I recall, Chris Hillman suggested that derivation to me some
        > time in
        > >> > the 1980s. Unfortunately, I've lost touch with him, so cannot
        > ask him to
        > >> > remind me about it. Anyone got an e-mail address for him?
        > >> >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >>
        > >
        > >
        > > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
        > > howard@...
        > > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >


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      • David Brown
        It is a privilege to hear via Michael from Chris Hillman, undisputed guv ner in this area, and thanks to both. The test pressing identifying Mutt Carton is a
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 6, 2009
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          It is a privilege to hear via Michael from Chris Hillman, undisputed guv'ner
          in this area, and thanks to both.

          The test pressing identifying Mutt Carton is a new one on me and the
          clarinettist/altoist has always been identified as, and sounds like, Arnett.

          I have no access to the Thomas Muscle Shoals Devils sides of June 1925 but
          my Rust does not list George W.Thomas but Hersal on piano. How definite is
          Cicero on these ?

          I cite again from start to about 40 seconds on the King Mutt 'Mississippi
          Stomp' and a roughly similar time into the K.C. Tin Roof Stompers 'Aunt
          Jemina Stomp'. The trumpet phrasing is strikingly similar, both referring to
          the Oliver 'Dippermouth' break. These sessions are only about 30 days apart
          and it sounds like a regular routine that Cicero had worked out for this
          context and tempo.

          Thomas Devils sounds to me like the same man and here I particularly cite a
          distinctly Natty moment from 1-40 to 1-50 on 'Boot It Boy'. And why do I
          hear no clarinet on either take of 'Sho' Is Hot' ? The only explanation I
          can find is that the player turned up late or 'indisposed' which maybe
          points at Arnett.

          Dave




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        • David Brown
          With warm thanks to a fellow list member I have now heard the Muscle Shoals Devils sides and there is no aural evidence at all to place Cicero here but rather
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 7, 2009
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            With warm thanks to a fellow list member I have now heard the Muscle Shoals
            Devils sides and there is no aural evidence at all to place Cicero here but
            rather to the contrary.

            As this is 3 years earlier than any other Cicero we have it is not
            impossible that his style changed but my best opinion is that he is not on
            these sides.

            Dave





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • stevenabrams78jazz
            2a. Re: Cicero Thomas Posted by: spacelights spacelights@yahoo.com spacelights I m not sure if this has been addressed yet, but are the Kansas City Stompers
            Message 5 of 17 , Aug 18, 2011
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              2a. Re: Cicero Thomas
              Posted by: "spacelights" spacelights@... spacelights
              I'm not sure if this has been addressed yet, but are the Kansas City
              Stompers and Kansas City Tin Roof Stompers sessions reversed on Frog
              DGF70...?
              On Collector's Classics CD 'The Junie Cobb Collection' and LP 'Chicago in
              the 20'ies (sic) - Part 2', the track listed as "Aunt Jemima Stomp" is
              Frog's "Shanghai Honeymoon"... and so on.
              Which reissue is correct?
              ======================================================================
              Hi Folks:
              There is an easy way to tell "Shanghai Honeymoon"
              It is a rip off 'JUST A SONG AT TWILIGHT'

              My first post since joining this group and hope it helps.
              STEVEN ABRAMS
              SAN FRANCISCO
              STEVENSO-B@...
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