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Cicero Thomas

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  • David Brown
    The admirable new Nick Dellow engineered Frog of the King Mutts has him as Lawrence with Cicero as a nickname derived from the Chicago suburb. Does anybody
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 26, 2009
      The admirable new Nick Dellow engineered Frog of the 'King Mutts' has him as
      Lawrence with Cicero as a nickname derived from the Chicago suburb. Does
      anybody know the source for this or anything biographical at all ?

      The issue is much recommended for the original and many faceted playing of
      Cicero and the never before splendid quality allows better study and,
      despite some initial scepticism, I do now believe that it is Cicero
      throughout but would be interested in any opinions.

      The playing on the 'King Mutts', previously whimsically assigned to Punch,
      is least like Cicero's other work but this I think due to him being
      equired -- I assume required --to play in what I hear as straight mute
      throughout whereas his usual preference and glory was his wayward but
      emotive open playing often including shakes and rasps similar to Natty.
      However, there is almost identical phrasing on the King Mutt 'Mississippi
      Stomp' and the Cicero of the K.C. Tin Roof Stompers 'Aunt Jemina Stomp'. His
      presence on the K.C. Stompers sides is confirmed by comparison of their
      'Shanghai Honeymoon' and the State Street Ramblers version of 23 April 1928.

      Further wonders of Cicero can be found on the Walter Barnes sides.


      Dave


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Howard Rye
      Laurence (so spelled if correctly quoted in Jazz Monthly for January 1970) comes from a personnel of the Walter Barnes band which appears in the 22 September
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 26, 2009
        Laurence (so spelled if correctly quoted in Jazz Monthly for January 1970)
        comes from a personnel of the Walter Barnes band which appears in the 22
        September 1928 Chicago Defender.

        I assume there is evdience for the universal assumption that this is the man
        otherwise known as Cicero Thomas.


        on 26/03/2009 16:00, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

        >
        >
        >
        > The admirable new Nick Dellow engineered Frog of the 'King Mutts' has him as
        > Lawrence with Cicero as a nickname derived from the Chicago suburb. Does
        > anybody know the source for this or anything biographical at all ?
        >
        > The issue is much recommended for the original and many faceted playing of
        > Cicero and the never before splendid quality allows better study and,
        > despite some initial scepticism, I do now believe that it is Cicero
        > throughout but would be interested in any opinions.
        >
        > The playing on the 'King Mutts', previously whimsically assigned to Punch,
        > is least like Cicero's other work but this I think due to him being
        > equired -- I assume required --to play in what I hear as straight mute
        > throughout whereas his usual preference and glory was his wayward but
        > emotive open playing often including shakes and rasps similar to Natty.
        > However, there is almost identical phrasing on the King Mutt 'Mississippi
        > Stomp' and the Cicero of the K.C. Tin Roof Stompers 'Aunt Jemina Stomp'. His
        > presence on the K.C. Stompers sides is confirmed by comparison of their
        > 'Shanghai Honeymoon' and the State Street Ramblers version of 23 April 1928.
        >
        > Further wonders of Cicero can be found on the Walter Barnes sides.
        >
        > Dave
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >>
        >
        >
        > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
        > howard@...
        > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David Brown
        Thanks Howard So any real evidence to link him with Cicero ? The extract below suggests Cicero an unlikely birthplace or stomping ground for a black musician
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 27, 2009
          Thanks Howard

          So any real evidence to link him with Cicero ? The extract below suggests
          Cicero an unlikely birthplace or stomping ground for a black musician in the
          early years of the 20th century.

          'Racial tensions surfaced in Cicero throughout the 1950s and 1960s when
          residents resisted African Americans moving into their community. At the end
          of the twentieth century, although Cicero had virtually no black residents,
          people of Hispanic or Asian ancestry contributed to its mixture of ethnic
          cultures. Ethnic tensions surfaced in town politics as an entrenched
          Republican organization reluctantly shared power with an emerging Hispanic
          majority.'

          Any real evidence for Cicero not also being a given rather than a nickname ?

          Also can anybody hear the supposed second alto on the 'Mutts' ?

          The truly egregious David Cross --- who is, notwithstanding the excellent
          notes by Richard Rains, undoubtedly black --- muddies the water further by
          simpering 'play it Mutt' during an Arnett clarinet solo. This conflicts with
          the 'play it Mutt', previously heard as 'play it Punch', during a trumpet
          solo on the King Mutts. My guess that both were fabrications for added
          colour.

          I also guess too much to expect we have anything on Mutt Carton ?

          Dave









          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Bob Eagle
          During the period leading up to Brown v Board of Education (1954), the United States followed a highly successful policy of separate but equal development
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 27, 2009
            During the period leading up to Brown v Board of Education (1954), the United States followed a highly successful policy of "separate but equal" development for its non-white citizens, especially its black ones, who had already benefitted by being elevated from 3/5th of a person to whole beings.
             
            Pursuant to this enlightened policy, Thomas' bandmates were no doubt highly trained in classical studies and would have been well aware that Cicero in Roman times was a right little dictator.
             
            As lead trumpet, Cuicero would have fit that image to a "T" - hence the nickname.
             
            Yours in mock sincerity
            Bob

            --- On Fri, 27/3/09, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:


            From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
            Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Cicero Thomas
            To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
            Received: Friday, 27 March, 2009, 4:27 PM






            Thanks Howard

            So any real evidence to link him with Cicero ? The extract below suggests
            Cicero an unlikely birthplace or stomping ground for a black musician in the
            early years of the 20th century.

            'Racial tensions surfaced in Cicero throughout the 1950s and 1960s when
            residents resisted African Americans moving into their community. At the end
            of the twentieth century, although Cicero had virtually no black residents,
            people of Hispanic or Asian ancestry contributed to its mixture of ethnic
            cultures. Ethnic tensions surfaced in town politics as an entrenched
            Republican organization reluctantly shared power with an emerging Hispanic
            majority.'

            Any real evidence for Cicero not also being a given rather than a nickname ?

            Also can anybody hear the supposed second alto on the 'Mutts' ?

            The truly egregious David Cross --- who is, notwithstanding the excellent
            notes by Richard Rains, undoubtedly black --- muddies the water further by
            simpering 'play it Mutt' during an Arnett clarinet solo. This conflicts with
            the 'play it Mutt', previously heard as 'play it Punch', during a trumpet
            solo on the King Mutts. My guess that both were fabrications for added
            colour.

            I also guess too much to expect we have anything on Mutt Carton ?

            Dave

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

















            The new Internet Explorer 8 optimised for Yahoo!7: Faster, Safer, Easier.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Howard Rye
            Joking apart, there are quite a lot of people actually called ³Cicero Thomas² in U.S. Censuses and about half of them appear to be African-Americans, so
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 27, 2009
              Joking apart, there are quite a lot of people actually called ³Cicero
              Thomas² in U.S. Censuses and about half of them appear to be
              African-Americans, so there is really no need to postulate a connection with
              the place.

              Was it not quite a common practice to give slaves Latin names? I think I
              have encountered a few Scipio¹s over the years. Parents pick up names for
              euphony without caring much about their origin or original meaning.

              I think Richard will find very few people agreeing with him about David
              Cross.

              I also suspect that the ³Mutt² is a red herring. Something to do with Mutt
              and Jeff?


              on 27/03/2009 08:27, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

              >
              >
              >
              > Thanks Howard
              >
              > So any real evidence to link him with Cicero ? The extract below suggests
              > Cicero an unlikely birthplace or stomping ground for a black musician in the
              > early years of the 20th century.
              >
              > 'Racial tensions surfaced in Cicero throughout the 1950s and 1960s when
              > residents resisted African Americans moving into their community. At the end
              > of the twentieth century, although Cicero had virtually no black residents,
              > people of Hispanic or Asian ancestry contributed to its mixture of ethnic
              > cultures. Ethnic tensions surfaced in town politics as an entrenched
              > Republican organization reluctantly shared power with an emerging Hispanic
              > majority.'
              >
              > Any real evidence for Cicero not also being a given rather than a nickname ?
              >
              > Also can anybody hear the supposed second alto on the 'Mutts' ?
              >
              > The truly egregious David Cross --- who is, notwithstanding the excellent
              > notes by Richard Rains, undoubtedly black --- muddies the water further by
              > simpering 'play it Mutt' during an Arnett clarinet solo. This conflicts with
              > the 'play it Mutt', previously heard as 'play it Punch', during a trumpet
              > solo on the King Mutts. My guess that both were fabrications for added
              > colour.
              >
              > I also guess too much to expect we have anything on Mutt Carton ?
              >
              > Dave
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
              > howard@...
              > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Michael Rader
              Is there any reason for thinking that his real name may not have been Laurence as per Chicago Defender? There were also several other places called Cicero in
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 27, 2009
                Is there any reason for thinking that his real name may not have been Laurence as per Chicago Defender?

                There were also several other places called Cicero in the US. The Cicero in Illinois was actually Al Capone's retreat at the time, after Chicago became too hot for him. Were there any entertainment venues in Cicero at the time, which might have given employment to Mr. Thomas or other Afro-American musicians?

                Michael Rader
              • Howard Rye
                I¹ve obviously accidentally started a hare running here that I didn¹t intend. My first quick run through the evidence didn¹t establish why the Laurence
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 27, 2009
                  I¹ve obviously accidentally started a hare running here that I didn¹t
                  intend. My first quick run through the evidence didn¹t establish why the
                  Laurence Thomas working with Walter Barnes was thought to be Cicero.

                  However, Cicero Thomas was named for the Walter Barnes records made at the
                  time of the Defender report in Down Beat for 1 June 1940, according to
                  Index To Jazz, which sometimes quotes the source of its personnels. I cannot
                  check who actually gave them this personnel but at that early date it¹s
                  likely to have come from a band member and not to have been dreamed up by a
                  group of collectors. Who would have heard of him to dream him up?

                  The Walter Barnes band performed at the Cicero Cotton Club, owned by Ralph
                  Capone from late 1929 until July 1930. At the time Thomas is reported in the
                  band they were at the Arcadia Ballroom, Chicago.


                  on 27/03/2009 14:35, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Is there any reason for thinking that his real name may not have been Laurence
                  > as per Chicago Defender?
                  >
                  > There were also several other places called Cicero in the US. The Cicero in
                  > Illinois was actually Al Capone's retreat at the time, after Chicago became
                  > too hot for him. Were there any entertainment venues in Cicero at the time,
                  > which might have given employment to Mr. Thomas or other Afro-American
                  > musicians?
                  >
                  > Michael Rader
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                  > howard@...
                  > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Michael Rader
                  It is perhaps worth noting that the King Mutts were also issued as by Frisky Foot Jackson and Graveyard Johnson so that apart from the shout of Mutt ,
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 27, 2009
                    It is perhaps worth noting that the King Mutts were also issued as by "Frisky Foot Jackson" and "Graveyard Johnson" so that apart from the shout of "Mutt", there is nothing to suggest that Mutt might refer to one of the musicians.

                    Michael Rader

                    > The admirable new Nick Dellow engineered Frog of the 'King Mutts' has him as
                    > Lawrence with Cicero as a nickname derived from the Chicago suburb. Does
                    > anybody know the source for this or anything biographical at all ?
                  • Howard Rye
                    Yes, but: This is a Gennett session and unless we are being misled (I don¹t think I¹ve ever seen the ledger sheet myself) ³King Mutt and His Tennessee
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 27, 2009
                      Yes, but:

                      This is a Gennett session and unless we are being misled (I don¹t think I¹ve
                      ever seen the ledger sheet myself) ³King Mutt and His Tennessee Thumpers² is
                      the name that appears in the Gennett files. The names on the cheap labels
                      were just dreamed up after the session to conceal the fact that they were
                      the same material being sold on Gennett at a higher price.

                      We know they are the same because we know about matrix numbers.


                      on 27/03/2009 16:44, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > It is perhaps worth noting that the King Mutts were also issued as by "Frisky
                      > Foot Jackson" and "Graveyard Johnson" so that apart from the shout of "Mutt",
                      > there is nothing to suggest that Mutt might refer to one of the musicians.
                      >
                      > Michael Rader
                      >
                      >> > The admirable new Nick Dellow engineered Frog of the 'King Mutts' has him
                      >> as
                      >> > Lawrence with Cicero as a nickname derived from the Chicago suburb. Does
                      >> > anybody know the source for this or anything biographical at all ?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                      > howard@...
                      > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • David Brown
                      I reckon King Mutt is as much a fabrication as Tennessee . Do we know the source of the supposition that Cicero was not a given name along with ( or without
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 30, 2009
                        I reckon 'King Mutt' is as much a fabrication as 'Tennessee'.

                        Do we know the source of the supposition that Cicero was not a given name
                        along with ( or without ) Laurence/Lawrence ?

                        Do we know anything at all about the origins of Barnes or his band -- Howard
                        ?

                        As far as I can tell -- by using the index in Rust, not its crowning
                        glory -- the only musician, apart from Cicero, to ever record again was the
                        bassist Louis Thompson who surfaces in N.Y.C in mid 30s with Willie Bryant
                        and for a pick-up session under Art Karle. If this is the same man.

                        Plunker Hall is a wonderful, if rather credulity stretching, name for a
                        banjoist who cannot be, despite Rust, the same as Larry Hall who was
                        obviously white. The name of George Thigpen is alongside that of Cicero but
                        nothing I can find to relate him to Ben.

                        Dave





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • jtdyamond
                        As I recall, Chris Hillman suggested that derivation to me some time in the 1980s. Unfortunately, I ve lost touch with him, so cannot ask him to remind me
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 31, 2009
                          As I recall, Chris Hillman suggested that derivation to me some time in
                          the 1980s. Unfortunately, I've lost touch with him, so cannot ask him to
                          remind me about it. Anyone got an e-mail address for him?

                          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > The admirable new Nick Dellow engineered Frog of the 'King Mutts' has
                          him as
                          > Lawrence with Cicero as a nickname derived from the Chicago suburb.
                          Does
                          > anybody know the source for this or anything biographical at all ?
                          >
                          > The issue is much recommended for the original and many faceted
                          playing of
                          > Cicero and the never before splendid quality allows better study and,
                          > despite some initial scepticism, I do now believe that it is Cicero
                          > throughout but would be interested in any opinions.
                          >
                          > The playing on the 'King Mutts', previously whimsically assigned to
                          Punch,
                          > is least like Cicero's other work but this I think due to him being
                          > equired -- I assume required --to play in what I hear as straight
                          mute
                          > throughout whereas his usual preference and glory was his wayward but
                          > emotive open playing often including shakes and rasps similar to
                          Natty.
                          > However, there is almost identical phrasing on the King Mutt
                          'Mississippi
                          > Stomp' and the Cicero of the K.C. Tin Roof Stompers 'Aunt Jemina
                          Stomp'. His
                          > presence on the K.C. Stompers sides is confirmed by comparison of
                          their
                          > 'Shanghai Honeymoon' and the State Street Ramblers version of 23 April
                          1928.
                          >
                          > Further wonders of Cicero can be found on the Walter Barnes sides.
                          >
                          >
                          > Dave
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Michael Rader
                          To jtdyamond: if you will let me know your real name (off-list, if need be) I will forward this to Chris Hillman. I (and others on the list) have his e-mail
                          Message 12 of 17 , Apr 5 11:41 PM
                            To jtdyamond: if you will let me know your real name (off-list, if need be) I will forward this to Chris Hillman. I (and others on the list) have his e-mail address, but Chris hesitates to circulate it widely due to bad experience.

                            I wrote to him about Cicero Thomas, and with Chris' permission, these are excerpts from his reply:
                            ******************************
                            ""Cicero" Thomas of the Walter Barnes orchestra has certainly been identified as "Laurence" but not by me originally. See Big Band Jazz by Albert McCarthy P.30, for instance. I have always supposed that he was nick-named after the
                            Al Capone suburb but have no proof of this although AM writes that the Barnes band was resident at the Cotton Club in Cicero in 1929/30. Beyond that I know very little of him. I once asked Sippie Wallace about him, thinking that as he was said to have accompanied her on record, he might be of that Thomas family, but she said she knew no one of that name - I didn't know him as Laurence (or Lawrence) at that time.

                            "Cicero" is identified vocally on Pleasure Mad by the State Street Ramblers.

                            The supposition that it is he on Thomas's Devils and ergo likely on the King Mutts seems to be losing credibility with the so-called discovery, mentioned by Richard Rains in his Frog notes, of a mysterious test pressing of the former identifying "Mutt" Carton of trumpet and Ed Boudreaux on clarinet. If this is correct then the shout of "Mr Thomas" during the trumpet solo can only have been directed at the pianist George W. Thomas, whose group it surely was, following on from the one of the same name which recorded under his late lamented brother Hersal in 1925. Further listening has led us to believe that there is less stylistic similarity here with the "Cicero" of the State Street Ramblers than we had thought, although the Kansas City Stompers of around the same time could be the same man - not the Kansas City Tin Roof Stompers though which may be the Mutt musician.

                            All very hypothetical and unfortunately we only know of this test pressing by hearsay. It is supposed to have been in the John R.T. Davies collection but seems to have vanished without trace. Ed Boudreaux is another intriguing identification. A musician of that name was identified by Preston Jackson as playing at the Dusty Bottom with Tig Chambers (and Richard M. Jones????) and also with Roy Palmer and Tommy Ladnier in 1923. Arnett Nelson, who sounds to be on the King Mutt's and also, we thought, on the Thomas's Devils, was also with Ladnier and Palmer at that time. Very mysterious!"

                            ******end of quote*************
                            To this I can only add that the information about the fabled test pressing doesn't seem to be in the Frog liner notes - maybe axed for space reasons. Another point is that the State Street Ramblers recordings (April 1928) pre-date the Barnes band's documented residence at the Cicero Cotton Club. Did it play there before that date, did Cicero, or was there another reason for his nickname?

                            McCarthy isn't very helpful on the last matter: he lists Thomas as "Lawrence" in the personnel, but discusses the recorded music for Lawrence "Cicero" Thomas without indicating the reason for equating Lawrence with Cicero (if you see what I mean). It would be helpful to know where and when Cicero Thomas was first mentioned in print.

                            Michael Rader,
                            Karlsruhe,
                            Germany


                            --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "jtdyamond" <fearfeasa@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > As I recall, Chris Hillman suggested that derivation to me some time in
                            > the 1980s. Unfortunately, I've lost touch with him, so cannot ask him to
                            > remind me about it. Anyone got an e-mail address for him?
                            >
                          • Howard Rye
                            Cicero Thomas is named as a member of this Walter Barnes band at this time in Down Beat for 1 June 1940 (according to Index To Jazz). I thought I had already
                            Message 13 of 17 , Apr 6 3:39 AM
                              Cicero Thomas is named as a member of this Walter Barnes band at this time
                              in Down Beat for 1 June 1940 (according to Index To Jazz). I thought I had
                              already posted this information but perhaps I dreamt it. As I don¹t have
                              immediate access to this issue of Down Beat I cannot confirm the provenance
                              of the data.


                              on 06/04/2009 07:41, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:

                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > McCarthy isn't very helpful on the last matter: he lists Thomas as "Lawrence"
                              > in the personnel, but discusses the recorded music for Lawrence "Cicero"
                              > Thomas without indicating the reason for equating Lawrence with Cicero (if you
                              > see what I mean). It would be helpful to know where and when Cicero Thomas was
                              > first mentioned in print.
                              >
                              > Michael Rader,
                              > Karlsruhe,
                              > Germany
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                              > "jtdyamond" <fearfeasa@...> wrote:
                              >> >
                              >> > As I recall, Chris Hillman suggested that derivation to me some time in
                              >> > the 1980s. Unfortunately, I've lost touch with him, so cannot ask him to
                              >> > remind me about it. Anyone got an e-mail address for him?
                              >> >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >>
                              >
                              >
                              > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                              > howard@...
                              > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                              >



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Michael Rader
                              You might have mentioned this before, but I didn t remember whether it was as *Cicero* or as *Lawrence*. Another question is where the suggestion for Cicero
                              Message 14 of 17 , Apr 6 4:43 AM
                                You might have mentioned this before, but I didn't remember whether it was as *Cicero* or as *Lawrence*. Another question is where the suggestion for Cicero Thomas as an accompanist for a Sippie Wallace came from. Chris Hillman now has Dave Nelson as a likely candidate.

                                Michael Rader

                                > Cicero Thomas is named as a member of this Walter Barnes band at this
                                > time
                                > in Down Beat for 1 June 1940 (according to Index To Jazz). I thought
                                > I had
                                > already posted this information but perhaps I dreamt it. As I don¹t
                                > have
                                > immediate access to this issue of Down Beat I cannot confirm the
                                > provenance
                                > of the data.
                                >
                                > on 06/04/2009 07:41, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:
                                >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > McCarthy isn't very helpful on the last matter: he lists Thomas as "
                                > Lawrence"
                                > > in the personnel, but discusses the recorded music for Lawrence "
                                > Cicero"
                                > > Thomas without indicating the reason for equating Lawrence with
                                > Cicero (if you
                                > > see what I mean). It would be helpful to know where and when Cicero
                                > Thomas was
                                > > first mentioned in print.
                                > >
                                > > Michael Rader,
                                > > Karlsruhe,
                                > > Germany
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.
                                > com> ,
                                > > "jtdyamond" <fearfeasa@...> wrote:
                                > >> >
                                > >> > As I recall, Chris Hillman suggested that derivation to me some
                                > time in
                                > >> > the 1980s. Unfortunately, I've lost touch with him, so cannot
                                > ask him to
                                > >> > remind me about it. Anyone got an e-mail address for him?
                                > >> >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >>
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                > > howard@...
                                > > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                                > >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >


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                              • David Brown
                                It is a privilege to hear via Michael from Chris Hillman, undisputed guv ner in this area, and thanks to both. The test pressing identifying Mutt Carton is a
                                Message 15 of 17 , Apr 6 7:58 AM
                                  It is a privilege to hear via Michael from Chris Hillman, undisputed guv'ner
                                  in this area, and thanks to both.

                                  The test pressing identifying Mutt Carton is a new one on me and the
                                  clarinettist/altoist has always been identified as, and sounds like, Arnett.

                                  I have no access to the Thomas Muscle Shoals Devils sides of June 1925 but
                                  my Rust does not list George W.Thomas but Hersal on piano. How definite is
                                  Cicero on these ?

                                  I cite again from start to about 40 seconds on the King Mutt 'Mississippi
                                  Stomp' and a roughly similar time into the K.C. Tin Roof Stompers 'Aunt
                                  Jemina Stomp'. The trumpet phrasing is strikingly similar, both referring to
                                  the Oliver 'Dippermouth' break. These sessions are only about 30 days apart
                                  and it sounds like a regular routine that Cicero had worked out for this
                                  context and tempo.

                                  Thomas Devils sounds to me like the same man and here I particularly cite a
                                  distinctly Natty moment from 1-40 to 1-50 on 'Boot It Boy'. And why do I
                                  hear no clarinet on either take of 'Sho' Is Hot' ? The only explanation I
                                  can find is that the player turned up late or 'indisposed' which maybe
                                  points at Arnett.

                                  Dave




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • David Brown
                                  With warm thanks to a fellow list member I have now heard the Muscle Shoals Devils sides and there is no aural evidence at all to place Cicero here but rather
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Apr 7 12:35 AM
                                    With warm thanks to a fellow list member I have now heard the Muscle Shoals
                                    Devils sides and there is no aural evidence at all to place Cicero here but
                                    rather to the contrary.

                                    As this is 3 years earlier than any other Cicero we have it is not
                                    impossible that his style changed but my best opinion is that he is not on
                                    these sides.

                                    Dave





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • stevenabrams78jazz
                                    2a. Re: Cicero Thomas Posted by: spacelights spacelights@yahoo.com spacelights I m not sure if this has been addressed yet, but are the Kansas City Stompers
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Aug 18, 2011
                                      2a. Re: Cicero Thomas
                                      Posted by: "spacelights" spacelights@... spacelights
                                      I'm not sure if this has been addressed yet, but are the Kansas City
                                      Stompers and Kansas City Tin Roof Stompers sessions reversed on Frog
                                      DGF70...?
                                      On Collector's Classics CD 'The Junie Cobb Collection' and LP 'Chicago in
                                      the 20'ies (sic) - Part 2', the track listed as "Aunt Jemima Stomp" is
                                      Frog's "Shanghai Honeymoon"... and so on.
                                      Which reissue is correct?
                                      ======================================================================
                                      Hi Folks:
                                      There is an easy way to tell "Shanghai Honeymoon"
                                      It is a rip off 'JUST A SONG AT TWILIGHT'

                                      My first post since joining this group and hope it helps.
                                      STEVEN ABRAMS
                                      SAN FRANCISCO
                                      STEVENSO-B@...
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