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RE: [RedHotJazz] Emile Barnes (and "St Louis Blues" Shields) was Re: Willie Joseph

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  • David Brown
    Hello Robert I fear that many here do not have access to much important, often out of print, jazz literature. I, sadly, do not have Brothers so maybe you could
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 2, 2009
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      Hello Robert

      I fear that many here do not have access to much important, often out of
      print, jazz literature.

      I, sadly, do not have Brothers so maybe you could tell us what he says on
      Uptown style, especially clarinets.

      It is a relief to know that we can depend on you to avoid the dangers of
      over-quotation.

      Dave










      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • David Brown
      Israel Gorman in St. Louis Blues , At Happy Landings , 7 August 1954, paraphrases the Shields solo of 1921, including a direct quote. This either proves
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 2, 2009
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        Israel Gorman in 'St. Louis Blues' , 'At Happy Landings', 7 August 1954,
        paraphrases the Shields solo of 1921, including a direct quote.

        This either proves the extent of Shields influence or, as Yves suggested, a
        pre-existing standard clarinet solo which, as Shields left N.O. permanently
        in 1916, must have been established extremely early, especially as 'St Louis
        ' was only published in 1914.

        Can anybody supply dates or more for Gorman and also possibly for Steve
        Angrum ?

        Thanks

        Dave




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Robert Greenwood
        Inclement weather has kept me indoors and away from computers, so I have used some of the available time listening to various versions of St Louis Blues for
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 5, 2009
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          Inclement weather has kept me indoors and away from computers, so I
          have used some of the available time listening to various versions of
          St Louis Blues for the "Shields clarinet solo."
          Emile Barnes plays it on the 1951 American Music Louisiana Joymakers
          session; both takes. He plays it also on the 1951 Kid Thomas session
          for AM. Failing health may have discouraged his attempting it on
          sessions from 1962 and 1963. The Solo forms part of the version he
          recorded at the 1946 Harmony Four session.
          His brother Paul Barnes does not play The Solo on the St Louis Blues
          recorded at a session in 1966 with Sheik and Earl Humphrey.
          Steve Angrum (born 1895) in his all too brief recording career
          recorded two versions; on neither does he play Shields' solo.
          Israel Gorman (born 1896) seems always to have played it, although,
          as he does on the 1962 Icon session with Punch, it forms the second
          chorus only of his solo spot.
          Willie Humphrey uses it as the second chorus of his solo on the 1961
          Riverside Emma Barrett session.
          Albert Burbank can be heard to play it on a 1945 AM with Wooden Joe
          and Joe Petit. He plays it again in 1962 on the Kid Clayton Icon
          session.
          John Casimir plays it on a 1962 Icon session with Kid Howard.
          Raymond Burke seems never to have recorded this solo.

          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Israel Gorman in 'St. Louis Blues' , 'At Happy Landings', 7
          August 1954,
          > paraphrases the Shields solo of 1921, including a direct quote.
          >
          > This either proves the extent of Shields influence or, as Yves
          suggested, a
          > pre-existing standard clarinet solo which, as Shields left N.O.
          permanently
          > in 1916, must have been established extremely early, especially
          as 'St Louis
          > ' was only published in 1914.
          >
          > Can anybody supply dates or more for Gorman and also possibly for
          Steve
          > Angrum ?
          >
          > Thanks
          >
          > Dave
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • jtdyamond
          As a NO-style clarinettist, for many years I d wondered where the St Louis Blues clarinet solo came from - all the New Orleans men played a version of it. So,
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 30, 2009
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            As a NO-style clarinettist, for many years I'd wondered where the St
            Louis Blues clarinet solo came from - all the New Orleans men played a
            version of it. So, back in 1980, I asked Willie Humphrey where he got
            the solo from. He looked at me, gave a mischievous smile and said, "I s
            everybody happy?" I didn't understand what he meant. He repeated, "Is
            everybody happy?" I still didn't understand, so he said, "Ted Lewis,
            man!" That was Ted Lewis's catchphraseÂ…


            --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Greenwood"
            <robertgreenwood_54uk@...> wrote:
            >
            > Inclement weather has kept me indoors and away from computers, so I
            > have used some of the available time listening to various versions of
            > St Louis Blues for the "Shields clarinet solo."
            > Emile Barnes plays it on the 1951 American Music Louisiana Joymakers
            > session; both takes. He plays it also on the 1951 Kid Thomas session
            > for AM. Failing health may have discouraged his attempting it on
            > sessions from 1962 and 1963. The Solo forms part of the version he
            > recorded at the 1946 Harmony Four session.
            > His brother Paul Barnes does not play The Solo on the St Louis Blues
            > recorded at a session in 1966 with Sheik and Earl Humphrey.
            > Steve Angrum (born 1895) in his all too brief recording career
            > recorded two versions; on neither does he play Shields' solo.
            > Israel Gorman (born 1896) seems always to have played it, although,
            > as he does on the 1962 Icon session with Punch, it forms the second
            > chorus only of his solo spot.
            > Willie Humphrey uses it as the second chorus of his solo on the 1961
            > Riverside Emma Barrett session.
            > Albert Burbank can be heard to play it on a 1945 AM with Wooden Joe
            > and Joe Petit. He plays it again in 1962 on the Kid Clayton Icon
            > session.
            > John Casimir plays it on a 1962 Icon session with Kid Howard.
            > Raymond Burke seems never to have recorded this solo.
            >
            > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" johnhaleysims@
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > Israel Gorman in 'St. Louis Blues' , 'At Happy Landings', 7
            > August 1954,
            > > paraphrases the Shields solo of 1921, including a direct quote.
            > >
            > > This either proves the extent of Shields influence or, as Yves
            > suggested, a
            > > pre-existing standard clarinet solo which, as Shields left N.O.
            > permanently
            > > in 1916, must have been established extremely early, especially
            > as 'St Louis
            > > ' was only published in 1914.
            > >
            > > Can anybody supply dates or more for Gorman and also possibly for
            > Steve
            > > Angrum ?
            > >
            > > Thanks
            > >
            > > Dave
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
          • David Brown
            Hello -- er -- ? -- a name would be nice. That is very interesting. Lewis recorded St. Louis on 7 Dec 1922. There is a dreadful dire clarinet solo which is
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 31, 2009
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              Hello -- er -- ? -- a name would be nice.

              That is very interesting. Lewis recorded 'St. Louis' on 7 Dec 1922. There
              is a dreadful dire clarinet solo which is nothing at all like the Shields.

              Either Willie was being deliberately disingenuous or, through the folklore
              fog of 60 years, one 'celebrated' early white clarinettist had been confused
              with another.

              If the latter, I interpret as enhancing Shields claim to genuine authorship.

              Dave





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • fearfeasa
              Maybe Shields did write the solo - maybe not. Did the ODJB or LaRocca-Shields write /Tiger Rag/ or was it Jelly Roll Morton? Or was it just a rip-off of
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 31, 2009
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                Maybe Shields did "write" the solo - maybe not. Did the ODJB or
                LaRocca-Shields write /Tiger Rag/ or was it Jelly Roll Morton? Or was it
                just a rip-off of /Play Jack Carey/? Did they write the /Dixie Jass Band
                One-Step/? Or was that just a rip-off of /Livery Stable Blues/? (The
                famous court case decided that no one could claim royalties.) Maybe we
                should all sit around a ouija board, hold hands and try to contact the
                living, as Ronnie Scott suggested. Maybe someone should have asked Picou
                or Big Eye? Picou would have claimed it - Big Eye would have disagreed.

                A better question than 'Did Shields "write" the solo?' would be 'Who did
                Shields get it from?' The essence of NO jazz was and still is, that it
                is an urban folk music, without "authors."

                Willie liked to joke. That reply was his way of taking the piss - but
                also of telling me, 'Don't be asking me those silly questions. It's the
                tradition - I'm part of the tradition and so is that solo. I'm proud of
                the tradition, so I learnt the traditional solo /and made it my own/ -
                just as Larry Shields did. Now let's talk about something else." Which
                we did.

                As for my name. Over on the right there, you'll see that this was posted
                by "jtdyamond." Is that not enough for the time being? Lighten up, for
                now, please....

                David Brown wrote:
                >
                > Hello -- er -- ? -- a name would be nice.
                >
                > That is very interesting. Lewis recorded 'St. Louis' on 7 Dec 1922. There
                > is a dreadful dire clarinet solo which is nothing at all like the Shields.
                >
                > Either Willie was being deliberately disingenuous or, through the folklore
                > fog of 60 years, one 'celebrated' early white clarinettist had been
                > confused
                > with another.
                >
                > If the latter, I interpret as enhancing Shields claim to genuine
                > authorship.
                >
                > Dave
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Patrice Champarou
                ... Hi, X, a.k.a. for the time being I thought David s kind reminder would relieve me from the task of sending you a serious warning, but seeing your reply
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 31, 2009
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                  > As for my name. Over on the right there, you'll see that this was posted
                  > by "jtdyamond." Is that not enough for the time being? Lighten up, for
                  > now, please....

                  Hi, X, a.k.a. "for the time being"

                  I thought David's kind reminder would relieve me from the task of sending
                  you a serious warning, but seeing your reply I'm afraid "for the time being"
                  is likely to turn into "how long?" in no time.

                  You received the group's rules and recommendations as everyone else, didn't
                  you? So calm down a bit and read them, they'll teach you a lot, like not
                  sending 300 lines of unnecessary quotes as you did in your very first post
                  to the group, and avoiding nasty comments when someone suggests you to
                  behave like everybody else.

                  I know, none of us is everybody else, but signing one's name is elementary
                  politeness and we're not supposed to extract your identity from an email
                  address, full stop (or period, for non-British)
                  Introducing oneself before posting is also a custom here. Up to you if you
                  don't want to, but you were a lot more talkative about yourself while
                  requesting subscription, right?

                  Sorry if the group-owner is such an unpleasant guy, but I've already seen
                  great experts blow a Yahoo group into pieces because they weren't warned on
                  time, and I won't reiterate the Linda experience for six months.

                  Patrice
                • David Brown
                  Thanks to Patrice and really to Mr Dyamond. (?) The views of a practising musician are usually to be welcomed. Also definitely of value, first hand reports of
                  Message 8 of 20 , Apr 2, 2009
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                    Thanks to Patrice and really to Mr Dyamond. (?) The views of a practising
                    musician are usually to be welcomed.

                    Also definitely of value, first hand reports of what musicians, such as
                    Willie, said about their music.

                    I also recommend use of the Group archive. Threads tend to get spread and
                    confused and Dodds in the 30s and the Shields solo have been discussed under
                    several headers.

                    A search with musician's name will produce all relevant posts.

                    Dave





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • silverleafjb
                    I think Willie was winding you up... Cheers, Chris
                    Message 9 of 20 , Apr 16, 2009
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                      I think Willie was winding you up...

                      Cheers,
                      Chris



                      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello -- er -- ? -- a name would be nice.
                      >
                      > That is very interesting. Lewis recorded 'St. Louis' on 7 Dec 1922. There
                      > is a dreadful dire clarinet solo which is nothing at all like the Shields.
                      >
                      > Either Willie was being deliberately disingenuous or, through the folklore
                      > fog of 60 years, one 'celebrated' early white clarinettist had been confused
                      > with another.
                      >
                      > If the latter, I interpret as enhancing Shields claim to genuine authorship.
                      >
                      > Dave
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
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