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Re: [RedHotJazz] Emile Barnes (and "St Louis Blues" Sheilds) was Re: Willie Joseph

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  • yves francois
        I always saw Emile Barnes to be a sort of bridge between the Uptown and Downtown styles. One should judge Barnes on the recordings he made from 1946
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 26, 2009
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          I always saw Emile Barnes to be a sort of bridge between the "Uptown" and "Downtown" styles. One should judge Barnes on the recordings he made from 1946 to about 1954 only, for ill health (strokes etc) and a period of time of inactivity left him to be a shadow of his 40's/early 50's self (4 titles recorded in 1946 have been issued on an American Music CD in the 90's and catch him in stellar form, particularly a long blues called "St Louis Blues" but really should just be considered an Emile Barnes solo on the 12 bar form) in most (but not all) of his later recordings. I believe the classic session from 1951 (American Music with Toca, Pierce, Brazlee et all) being the best example of his work (though you will get more fine examples of Meele in the Folkways LP's issued in 1983 or so and the 1951 Thomas session)
      Yves Francois

      PS it should be noted that the "St Louis Blues" solo on the 1951 AM session was based on Sheilds solo on the ODJB 78, as were some versions by Albert Burbank (didn't Bunk even quoted that solo on one version?). I am sure this question has propped up before, but was Sheilds solo his, or part of an oral tradition in that NOLA clarinets already basically knew of. I know that Bechet spoke highly of Sheilds in "Treat It Gentle"

      --- On Mon, 1/26/09, Robert Greenwood <robertgreenwood_54uk@...> wrote:
      From: Robert Greenwood <robertgreenwood_54uk@...>
      Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: Willie Joseph
      To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, January 26, 2009, 4:29 AM

      I suspect a pool of players all playing a similar passionate blues-

      based style of clarinet, of whom Dodds was the most famous exponent.



      In a recorded interview (and I am quoting from memory) Baby Dodds

      described the downtown players as playing the blues in a French or

      Spanish style whereas, he says, the uptown players had just one way

      of playing the blues: "Negro style." I assume that by French or

      Spanish style he might mean something like the way in which Picou

      plays the tune he called "Coon Blues" which can be heard on CD8 of

      the Rounder set of the Morton Library of Congress recordings.



      In another interview, transcribed in The End of the Beginning, a book

      edited by Barry Martyn, and published by Jazzology Press, Emile

      Barnes mentions George & Achile Bacquet as clarinettists he admired,

      and reserves especial praise for Big Eye Louis Nelson. He makes no

      mention of Dodds.
    • David Brown
      From Lost Chords on St Louis Blues ODJB, Larry Shields -- there never has been a chorus played like that, before or since. I play it identically note
      Message 2 of 20 , Jan 26, 2009
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        From 'Lost Chords' on 'St Louis Blues' ODJB, Larry Shields

        ' -- there never has been a chorus played like that, before or since. I
        play it identically note for note, even now, to me, it's one of the greatest
        clarinet choruses in jazz music.'

        Harry Shields interviewed by Bill Russell 1961.




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • yves francois
        David I m impressed, and I think it means that at least one white jazz musician was being heard (and emulated) by many NOLA clarinet players of any cultural
        Message 3 of 20 , Jan 26, 2009
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          David
          I'm impressed, and I think it means that at least one white jazz musician was being heard (and emulated) by many NOLA clarinet players of any cultural background, and we have empirical proof for it in the recordings and the way musicians (and Bill Russell) refereed to it as "the solo". It is regrettable that Larry Shields does not get the kudos for his work with the ODJB, and this coming from a man who does not particularly care for LaRocca
          Yves Francois

          --- On Mon, 1/26/09, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
          From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
          Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Emile Barnes (and "St Louis Blues" Shields) was Re: Willie Joseph
          To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, January 26, 2009, 11:27 AM











          From 'Lost Chords' on 'St Louis Blues' ODJB, Larry Shields



          ' -- there never has been a chorus played like that, before or since. I

          play it identically note for note, even now, to me, it's one of the greatest

          clarinet choruses in jazz music.'
        • David Brown
          Greetings Yves -- and everybody I have on behind the very first Mile , St Louis Blues even, 1946. This is music of the highest order and also, as a measure
          Message 4 of 20 , Jan 27, 2009
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            Greetings Yves -- and everybody

            I have on behind the very first Mile , 'St Louis Blues' even, 1946. This is
            music of the highest order and also, as 'a measure of final achievement ',
            unlike any other player although, to me, stemming from the Creole clarinet
            tradition of Nelson.

            Shields in 1921 is far more like Dodds than Mile in 1946, or even 1951.

            ' When I asked him if he thought he'd picked up his clarinet style from
            someone who had gone before, he shook his head and said " Style! I didn't
            have any style ! I just blew like hell the best way I could and only hoped I
            could keep up. When people talked about my style I never knew what they
            meant. I never could play much clarinet."

            --- Al Rose ' I Remember Jazz' interview with Larry Shields c 1953.

            Bechet in 'Treat It Gentle' claims 'Larry Shields came to me for lessons.'
            But one must here be healthily sceptical of Bechet's self-serving.

            I think the Rose quote sums it up. Shields was a very good clarinettist with
            big ears who was, unassertive and unassuming, inclined chameleonlike to
            assume various styles, as he felt required. Thus his Nunez parody in the
            early ODJBs, his Dodds phrasing on 'St Louis ' and the 30s sides which offer
            wonderful clarinet playing but in the then fashionable Goodman derived
            style.

            I would, however, have to place his greatest influence as outside N.O. with
            ODJB mania. But ODJB and Shields did also reach back to N.O. :-

            ' The huge success of the ODJB and their debut recordings for Victor
            prompted Ory, at the insistence of Oliver, to substitute the piano for
            guitar and bass-- '

            --- Bernard Klatzko 'Clarinet In Blue - Johnny Dodds' 78 Quarterly No 10
            1999.

            This again underlines the importance of records as medium of dissemination
            of jazz style and influence. It is possible that Joseph studiously copied
            the, albeit, minimal Dodds then on record by 1927 just as Cy Laurie, Claude
            Luter, Bob Helm and scores more copied Dodds records in the 1940s and 1950s.

            Dave



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Robert Greenwood
            One should judge [Emile] Barnes on the recordings he made from 1946 to about 1954 only, for ill health (strokes etc) and a period of time of inactivity left
            Message 5 of 20 , Jan 27, 2009
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              "One should judge [Emile] Barnes on the recordings he made from 1946
              to about 1954 only, for ill health (strokes etc) and a period of time of
              inactivity left him to be a shadow of his 40's/early 50's self"

              I'm not sure I agree entirely. There are some tracks from about 1960 in
              a trio with Charlie Love & Manny Sayles that I recommend highly, as
              well as a session from around then made with C. Love's Cado Band. Ill
              health did make his playing variable, but he recorded a rather moving
              blues in the early sixties with Doc Paulin, and the Riverside session
              with Kid Thomas is worth hearing. The sound quality on the 1953 session
              with Ken Colyer is poor but Mile plays some lovely stuff alongside Ken
              & Harrison Brazeley. He plays beautifully on the 1954 Barnes Bocage
              session which is possibly his finest hour on record.
            • Robert Greenwood
              ... dissemination ... copied ... Laurie, Claude ... and 1950s. ... So are you saying that the established clarinet style in New Orleans was the one we refer to
              Message 6 of 20 , Jan 27, 2009
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                --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > This again underlines the importance of records as medium of
                dissemination
                > of jazz style and influence. It is possible that Joseph studiously
                copied
                > the, albeit, minimal Dodds then on record by 1927 just as Cy
                Laurie, Claude
                > Luter, Bob Helm and scores more copied Dodds records in the 1940s
                and 1950s.
                >

                So are you saying that the established clarinet style in New Orleans
                was the one we refer to as "creole" as exemplified by Big Eye Louis,
                Tio, Bacquet, Picou, and that younger players then heard, and were
                influenced by, recordings of Dodds who had just plucked his rougher,
                blues-based style of playing from out of the South Side Chicago air?
                The movement of most humans is towards the urban & the cosmopolitan.
                There was an influx into NO of people from surrounding rural areas.
                Is it not likely that rural blues (or proto-blues) singing, the calls
                of street vendors, and the like, as heard in New Orleans, may have
                had an influence and have gone, as they say, into the mix?
              • David Brown
                The trio sides with Love are among the most beautiful music I know. And interesting to compare with a quartet session, Love & Nelson, Luthjens 1949. I think it
                Message 7 of 20 , Jan 27, 2009
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                  The trio sides with Love are among the most beautiful music I know. And
                  interesting to compare with a quartet session, Love & Nelson, Luthjens 1949.

                  I think it unlikely that Willie Joseph copied Dodds records but scratch for
                  a satisfactory explanation for the similarities in style as I do for why
                  Shields sounds like Dodds on 'St. Louis Blues'.

                  The evidence, aural and otherwise, suggests that Nelson stood somewhat apart
                  from the other Creole clarinettists. He was the 'roughest' and reported as
                  the most able to 'get off' i.e. play jazz.

                  ' Louis' ironic speech, his dark skin, his short tight-napped hair, showed a
                  strong African heritage. Probably the Creoles of the Seventh Ward never
                  completely accepted him. Poor, dark and déclassé, Louis understood the blues
                  and felt at home with the Uptown musicians he met in Storyville.'

                  --Alan Lomax ' Mister Jelly Roll' and OK I agree a little purple and
                  romanticised and mythologizing of Storyville.

                  Dodds left N.O. in 1919 and apparently had little direct influence there
                  except for Joseph who may have been a disciple or even a peer. I think his
                  style reached maturity in Chicago and it is probable that some post-N.O.
                  influences caused amendment. Possible to cite here as evidence the anomalous
                  Dodds on CJB 'Alligator Hop' and 'Zulu's Ball'.

                  I have no doubt that blues was a strong element in black N.O. culture and
                  did indeed enter the mix.

                  ' Up town in N.O they had a lot of country guitar players used to come to
                  town and sit around and in barber shops you know. But they never did play
                  any real music with band orchestras.'

                  --- Charlie Love 'Conversation With The Blues' and later :-

                  ' I don't like the blues myself but I've been playing them all my life. --
                  That's not good music, not to me.'

                  The roughest early, or even ever, N.O. clarinet playing we have is white,
                  Nunez. There is still no evidence of a black rough Uptown clarinet style.
                  Players do not normally change style after maturity and surely Bill Russell
                  would have found any players in this, his preferred, style ?

                  The nearest Bill found was George who, although professing admiration for
                  Dodds, to me, offers an original synthesis of all N.O. clarinet playing and
                  who was also an admirer and would-be imitator of Woody Herman.

                  Dave




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Michael Rader
                  ... dissemination ... copied ... Actually, it wasn t that minimal and already included the Hot Fives. New Orleans musicians were said to be clannish and
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jan 27, 2009
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                    --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...>
                    wrote:

                    > This again underlines the importance of records as medium of
                    dissemination
                    > of jazz style and influence. It is possible that Joseph studiously
                    copied
                    > the, albeit, minimal Dodds then on record by 1927

                    Actually, it wasn't that minimal and already included the Hot Fives.
                    New Orleans musicians were said to be "clannish" and would have known
                    who was playing clarinet on the Creole Jazz Band and Hot Five
                    Recordings. There is evidence of a Bix influence on Johnny Wiggs
                    records made in NO which indicates that records did have an impact on
                    musicians in the Crescent City.

                    Michael Rader
                  • Albert Haim
                    Indeed, there is strong evidence that musicians listened to recordings of other musicians and were influenced, or at least inspired, by what they heard. A
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jan 27, 2009
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                      Indeed, there is strong evidence that musicians listened to recordings
                      of other musicians and were influenced, or at least inspired, by what
                      they heard. A notable example is 15-year old Bix learning to play
                      cornet by listening to ODJB records.

                      Thus, it is quite plausible that John Wigginton (I have also seen
                      Winnington) Hayman aka Johnny Wiggs was influenced by Bix's
                      recordings. However, I note, in addition, that Bix was in New Orleans
                      with Whiteman on Oct 28, 1928 and gave a concert at the St. Charles
                      Theatre. Several musicians from New Orleans attended the concert and
                      the jam session afterwards, Paul Mares, Monk Hazel, Armand Hug, Eddie
                      Miller, Snoozer Quinn and perhaps Nick LaRocca. I have not seen a
                      specific mention of Johnny Wiggs attending the concert, but I would
                      not be surprised if he did, assuming that he was in New Orleans at the
                      time. I read that Johnny Wiggs went to New York in the 1920s. He could
                      also have heard Bix in New York.

                      Albert


                      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Rader" <Rader.Michael@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@>
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      > > This again underlines the importance of records as medium of
                      > dissemination
                      > > of jazz style and influence. It is possible that Joseph studiously
                      > copied
                      > > the, albeit, minimal Dodds then on record by 1927
                      >
                      > Actually, it wasn't that minimal and already included the Hot Fives.
                      > New Orleans musicians were said to be "clannish" and would have known
                      > who was playing clarinet on the Creole Jazz Band and Hot Five
                      > Recordings. There is evidence of a Bix influence on Johnny Wiggs
                      > records made in NO which indicates that records did have an impact on
                      > musicians in the Crescent City.
                      >
                      > Michael Rader
                      >
                    • David Brown
                      there are at least two basic styles of New Orleans clarinet, one close to blues, the other related to French woodwinds. John Casimir reflects something of
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jan 28, 2009
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                        ' there are at least two basic styles of New Orleans clarinet, one close to
                        blues, the other related to French woodwinds. John Casimir reflects
                        something of both influences.'

                        --- Charles Edward Smith -- sleeve note Young Tuxedo Brass Band.

                        A chance to bring in again the above, recently heard from through his alter
                        ego.

                        Casimir does not sound to me here like Dodds although is handicapped by the
                        piping E-flat instrument. I can find nothing by him on normal B-flat.
                        Anybody ?

                        The Love I quoted yesterday -- although illustrating the presence of rural
                        blues in N.O. -- stresses that it was strictly and distinctly separate from
                        band music. Yet another problem I have with Uptown 'rough' clarinet style is
                        how this rural string and vocal music was transformed into an individual and
                        identifiable instrumental genre.

                        It is possible to carry this further and challenge the received wisdom of
                        the schism between Uptown v.v. Downtown style generally. Where is the
                        evidence, notwithstanding the writings of the revered Charles Edward ?

                        Dave






















                        [Unknown]


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com]On
                        Behalf Of Michael Rader
                        Sent: Dienstag, 27. Januar 2009 18:21
                        To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [RedHotJazz] Emile Barnes (and "St Louis Blues" Shields) was Re:
                        Willie Joseph


                        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...>
                        wrote:

                        > This again underlines the importance of records as medium of
                        dissemination
                        > of jazz style and influence. It is possible that Joseph studiously
                        copied
                        > the, albeit, minimal Dodds then on record by 1927

                        Actually, it wasn't that minimal and already included the Hot Fives.
                        New Orleans musicians were said to be "clannish" and would have known
                        who was playing clarinet on the Creole Jazz Band and Hot Five
                        Recordings. There is evidence of a Bix influence on Johnny Wiggs
                        records made in NO which indicates that records did have an impact on
                        musicians in the Crescent City.

                        Michael Rader






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Robert Greenwood
                        Well, since we are quoting from books, perhaps over-quoting, many aspects of the subject under discussion are covered in Thomas Brothers important &
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jan 30, 2009
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                          Well, since we are quoting from books, perhaps over-quoting, many
                          aspects of the subject under discussion are covered in Thomas
                          Brothers' important & superlative work "Loius Armstrong's New
                          Orleans." Among its many truths, none, I think, is more true than
                          this: "Most writers have been more interested in lineages of great
                          masters passing on genius, one to the other, than in the entanglement
                          of jazz with everyday life."

                          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > ' there are at least two basic styles of New Orleans clarinet, one
                          close to
                          > blues, the other related to French woodwinds. John Casimir reflects
                          > something of both influences.'
                          >
                          > --- Charles Edward Smith -- sleeve note Young Tuxedo Brass Band.
                          >
                          > A chance to bring in again the above, recently heard from through
                          his alter
                          > ego.
                          >
                          > Casimir does not sound to me here like Dodds although is
                          handicapped by the
                          > piping E-flat instrument. I can find nothing by him on normal B-
                          flat.
                          > Anybody ?
                          >
                          > The Love I quoted yesterday -- although illustrating the presence
                          of rural
                          > blues in N.O. -- stresses that it was strictly and distinctly
                          separate from
                          > band music. Yet another problem I have with Uptown 'rough' clarinet
                          style is
                          > how this rural string and vocal music was transformed into an
                          individual and
                          > identifiable instrumental genre.
                          >
                          > It is possible to carry this further and challenge the received
                          wisdom of
                          > the schism between Uptown v.v. Downtown style generally. Where is
                          the
                          > evidence, notwithstanding the writings of the revered Charles
                          Edward ?
                          >
                          > Dave
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Unknown]
                          >
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com]
                          On
                          > Behalf Of Michael Rader
                          > Sent: Dienstag, 27. Januar 2009 18:21
                          > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Emile Barnes (and "St Louis Blues" Shields)
                          was Re:
                          > Willie Joseph
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@>
                          > wrote:
                          >
                          > > This again underlines the importance of records as medium of
                          > dissemination
                          > > of jazz style and influence. It is possible that Joseph
                          studiously
                          > copied
                          > > the, albeit, minimal Dodds then on record by 1927
                          >
                          > Actually, it wasn't that minimal and already included the Hot
                          Fives.
                          > New Orleans musicians were said to be "clannish" and would have
                          known
                          > who was playing clarinet on the Creole Jazz Band and Hot Five
                          > Recordings. There is evidence of a Bix influence on Johnny Wiggs
                          > records made in NO which indicates that records did have an
                          impact on
                          > musicians in the Crescent City.
                          >
                          > Michael Rader
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • David Brown
                          Hello Robert I fear that many here do not have access to much important, often out of print, jazz literature. I, sadly, do not have Brothers so maybe you could
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 2, 2009
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                            Hello Robert

                            I fear that many here do not have access to much important, often out of
                            print, jazz literature.

                            I, sadly, do not have Brothers so maybe you could tell us what he says on
                            Uptown style, especially clarinets.

                            It is a relief to know that we can depend on you to avoid the dangers of
                            over-quotation.

                            Dave










                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • David Brown
                            Israel Gorman in St. Louis Blues , At Happy Landings , 7 August 1954, paraphrases the Shields solo of 1921, including a direct quote. This either proves
                            Message 13 of 20 , Feb 2, 2009
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                              Israel Gorman in 'St. Louis Blues' , 'At Happy Landings', 7 August 1954,
                              paraphrases the Shields solo of 1921, including a direct quote.

                              This either proves the extent of Shields influence or, as Yves suggested, a
                              pre-existing standard clarinet solo which, as Shields left N.O. permanently
                              in 1916, must have been established extremely early, especially as 'St Louis
                              ' was only published in 1914.

                              Can anybody supply dates or more for Gorman and also possibly for Steve
                              Angrum ?

                              Thanks

                              Dave




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Robert Greenwood
                              Inclement weather has kept me indoors and away from computers, so I have used some of the available time listening to various versions of St Louis Blues for
                              Message 14 of 20 , Feb 5, 2009
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                                Inclement weather has kept me indoors and away from computers, so I
                                have used some of the available time listening to various versions of
                                St Louis Blues for the "Shields clarinet solo."
                                Emile Barnes plays it on the 1951 American Music Louisiana Joymakers
                                session; both takes. He plays it also on the 1951 Kid Thomas session
                                for AM. Failing health may have discouraged his attempting it on
                                sessions from 1962 and 1963. The Solo forms part of the version he
                                recorded at the 1946 Harmony Four session.
                                His brother Paul Barnes does not play The Solo on the St Louis Blues
                                recorded at a session in 1966 with Sheik and Earl Humphrey.
                                Steve Angrum (born 1895) in his all too brief recording career
                                recorded two versions; on neither does he play Shields' solo.
                                Israel Gorman (born 1896) seems always to have played it, although,
                                as he does on the 1962 Icon session with Punch, it forms the second
                                chorus only of his solo spot.
                                Willie Humphrey uses it as the second chorus of his solo on the 1961
                                Riverside Emma Barrett session.
                                Albert Burbank can be heard to play it on a 1945 AM with Wooden Joe
                                and Joe Petit. He plays it again in 1962 on the Kid Clayton Icon
                                session.
                                John Casimir plays it on a 1962 Icon session with Kid Howard.
                                Raymond Burke seems never to have recorded this solo.

                                --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Israel Gorman in 'St. Louis Blues' , 'At Happy Landings', 7
                                August 1954,
                                > paraphrases the Shields solo of 1921, including a direct quote.
                                >
                                > This either proves the extent of Shields influence or, as Yves
                                suggested, a
                                > pre-existing standard clarinet solo which, as Shields left N.O.
                                permanently
                                > in 1916, must have been established extremely early, especially
                                as 'St Louis
                                > ' was only published in 1914.
                                >
                                > Can anybody supply dates or more for Gorman and also possibly for
                                Steve
                                > Angrum ?
                                >
                                > Thanks
                                >
                                > Dave
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • jtdyamond
                                As a NO-style clarinettist, for many years I d wondered where the St Louis Blues clarinet solo came from - all the New Orleans men played a version of it. So,
                                Message 15 of 20 , Mar 30, 2009
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                                  As a NO-style clarinettist, for many years I'd wondered where the St
                                  Louis Blues clarinet solo came from - all the New Orleans men played a
                                  version of it. So, back in 1980, I asked Willie Humphrey where he got
                                  the solo from. He looked at me, gave a mischievous smile and said, "I s
                                  everybody happy?" I didn't understand what he meant. He repeated, "Is
                                  everybody happy?" I still didn't understand, so he said, "Ted Lewis,
                                  man!" That was Ted Lewis's catchphrase…


                                  --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Greenwood"
                                  <robertgreenwood_54uk@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Inclement weather has kept me indoors and away from computers, so I
                                  > have used some of the available time listening to various versions of
                                  > St Louis Blues for the "Shields clarinet solo."
                                  > Emile Barnes plays it on the 1951 American Music Louisiana Joymakers
                                  > session; both takes. He plays it also on the 1951 Kid Thomas session
                                  > for AM. Failing health may have discouraged his attempting it on
                                  > sessions from 1962 and 1963. The Solo forms part of the version he
                                  > recorded at the 1946 Harmony Four session.
                                  > His brother Paul Barnes does not play The Solo on the St Louis Blues
                                  > recorded at a session in 1966 with Sheik and Earl Humphrey.
                                  > Steve Angrum (born 1895) in his all too brief recording career
                                  > recorded two versions; on neither does he play Shields' solo.
                                  > Israel Gorman (born 1896) seems always to have played it, although,
                                  > as he does on the 1962 Icon session with Punch, it forms the second
                                  > chorus only of his solo spot.
                                  > Willie Humphrey uses it as the second chorus of his solo on the 1961
                                  > Riverside Emma Barrett session.
                                  > Albert Burbank can be heard to play it on a 1945 AM with Wooden Joe
                                  > and Joe Petit. He plays it again in 1962 on the Kid Clayton Icon
                                  > session.
                                  > John Casimir plays it on a 1962 Icon session with Kid Howard.
                                  > Raymond Burke seems never to have recorded this solo.
                                  >
                                  > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" johnhaleysims@
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Israel Gorman in 'St. Louis Blues' , 'At Happy Landings', 7
                                  > August 1954,
                                  > > paraphrases the Shields solo of 1921, including a direct quote.
                                  > >
                                  > > This either proves the extent of Shields influence or, as Yves
                                  > suggested, a
                                  > > pre-existing standard clarinet solo which, as Shields left N.O.
                                  > permanently
                                  > > in 1916, must have been established extremely early, especially
                                  > as 'St Louis
                                  > > ' was only published in 1914.
                                  > >
                                  > > Can anybody supply dates or more for Gorman and also possibly for
                                  > Steve
                                  > > Angrum ?
                                  > >
                                  > > Thanks
                                  > >
                                  > > Dave
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
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                                • David Brown
                                  Hello -- er -- ? -- a name would be nice. That is very interesting. Lewis recorded St. Louis on 7 Dec 1922. There is a dreadful dire clarinet solo which is
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Mar 31, 2009
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                                    Hello -- er -- ? -- a name would be nice.

                                    That is very interesting. Lewis recorded 'St. Louis' on 7 Dec 1922. There
                                    is a dreadful dire clarinet solo which is nothing at all like the Shields.

                                    Either Willie was being deliberately disingenuous or, through the folklore
                                    fog of 60 years, one 'celebrated' early white clarinettist had been confused
                                    with another.

                                    If the latter, I interpret as enhancing Shields claim to genuine authorship.

                                    Dave





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • fearfeasa
                                    Maybe Shields did write the solo - maybe not. Did the ODJB or LaRocca-Shields write /Tiger Rag/ or was it Jelly Roll Morton? Or was it just a rip-off of
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Mar 31, 2009
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                                      Maybe Shields did "write" the solo - maybe not. Did the ODJB or
                                      LaRocca-Shields write /Tiger Rag/ or was it Jelly Roll Morton? Or was it
                                      just a rip-off of /Play Jack Carey/? Did they write the /Dixie Jass Band
                                      One-Step/? Or was that just a rip-off of /Livery Stable Blues/? (The
                                      famous court case decided that no one could claim royalties.) Maybe we
                                      should all sit around a ouija board, hold hands and try to contact the
                                      living, as Ronnie Scott suggested. Maybe someone should have asked Picou
                                      or Big Eye? Picou would have claimed it - Big Eye would have disagreed.

                                      A better question than 'Did Shields "write" the solo?' would be 'Who did
                                      Shields get it from?' The essence of NO jazz was and still is, that it
                                      is an urban folk music, without "authors."

                                      Willie liked to joke. That reply was his way of taking the piss - but
                                      also of telling me, 'Don't be asking me those silly questions. It's the
                                      tradition - I'm part of the tradition and so is that solo. I'm proud of
                                      the tradition, so I learnt the traditional solo /and made it my own/ -
                                      just as Larry Shields did. Now let's talk about something else." Which
                                      we did.

                                      As for my name. Over on the right there, you'll see that this was posted
                                      by "jtdyamond." Is that not enough for the time being? Lighten up, for
                                      now, please....

                                      David Brown wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hello -- er -- ? -- a name would be nice.
                                      >
                                      > That is very interesting. Lewis recorded 'St. Louis' on 7 Dec 1922. There
                                      > is a dreadful dire clarinet solo which is nothing at all like the Shields.
                                      >
                                      > Either Willie was being deliberately disingenuous or, through the folklore
                                      > fog of 60 years, one 'celebrated' early white clarinettist had been
                                      > confused
                                      > with another.
                                      >
                                      > If the latter, I interpret as enhancing Shields claim to genuine
                                      > authorship.
                                      >
                                      > Dave
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Patrice Champarou
                                      ... Hi, X, a.k.a. for the time being I thought David s kind reminder would relieve me from the task of sending you a serious warning, but seeing your reply
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Mar 31, 2009
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                                        > As for my name. Over on the right there, you'll see that this was posted
                                        > by "jtdyamond." Is that not enough for the time being? Lighten up, for
                                        > now, please....

                                        Hi, X, a.k.a. "for the time being"

                                        I thought David's kind reminder would relieve me from the task of sending
                                        you a serious warning, but seeing your reply I'm afraid "for the time being"
                                        is likely to turn into "how long?" in no time.

                                        You received the group's rules and recommendations as everyone else, didn't
                                        you? So calm down a bit and read them, they'll teach you a lot, like not
                                        sending 300 lines of unnecessary quotes as you did in your very first post
                                        to the group, and avoiding nasty comments when someone suggests you to
                                        behave like everybody else.

                                        I know, none of us is everybody else, but signing one's name is elementary
                                        politeness and we're not supposed to extract your identity from an email
                                        address, full stop (or period, for non-British)
                                        Introducing oneself before posting is also a custom here. Up to you if you
                                        don't want to, but you were a lot more talkative about yourself while
                                        requesting subscription, right?

                                        Sorry if the group-owner is such an unpleasant guy, but I've already seen
                                        great experts blow a Yahoo group into pieces because they weren't warned on
                                        time, and I won't reiterate the Linda experience for six months.

                                        Patrice
                                      • David Brown
                                        Thanks to Patrice and really to Mr Dyamond. (?) The views of a practising musician are usually to be welcomed. Also definitely of value, first hand reports of
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Apr 2 1:31 AM
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                                          Thanks to Patrice and really to Mr Dyamond. (?) The views of a practising
                                          musician are usually to be welcomed.

                                          Also definitely of value, first hand reports of what musicians, such as
                                          Willie, said about their music.

                                          I also recommend use of the Group archive. Threads tend to get spread and
                                          confused and Dodds in the 30s and the Shields solo have been discussed under
                                          several headers.

                                          A search with musician's name will produce all relevant posts.

                                          Dave





                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • silverleafjb
                                          I think Willie was winding you up... Cheers, Chris
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Apr 16 11:20 PM
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                                            I think Willie was winding you up...

                                            Cheers,
                                            Chris



                                            --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hello -- er -- ? -- a name would be nice.
                                            >
                                            > That is very interesting. Lewis recorded 'St. Louis' on 7 Dec 1922. There
                                            > is a dreadful dire clarinet solo which is nothing at all like the Shields.
                                            >
                                            > Either Willie was being deliberately disingenuous or, through the folklore
                                            > fog of 60 years, one 'celebrated' early white clarinettist had been confused
                                            > with another.
                                            >
                                            > If the latter, I interpret as enhancing Shields claim to genuine authorship.
                                            >
                                            > Dave
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
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