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RE: [RedHotJazz] Query about King Oliver & His Orchestra

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  • David Brown
    Hello Bob We have considered Oliver, wa-wa and specifically Sugar Blues here before. The personnel in Rust-2 is largely unknowns, however, by the time of
    Message 1 of 4 , Nov 17, 2008
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      Hello Bob

      We have considered Oliver, wa-wa and specifically 'Sugar Blues' here
      before.

      The personnel in Rust-2 is largely unknowns, however, by the time of the
      Frog reissue of 2000, a complete 'probable' personnel has emerged,
      provenance unknown to me. The trombonist is listed here as, and sounds like,
      Bennie Morton. Morton was with Henderson at this time, as was Rex Stewart
      who always claimed a date with Oliver.

      To my ears, the broad wa-wa solo on 'Sugar' cannot be Oliver and the solo
      on 'I'm Crazy' sounds like Rex.

      Suggested comparisons, the Henderson 'I'm Crazy' of April 25 1931, on which
      both Rex and Morton solo extensively, and the 1923 'Sugar' of Johhny Dunn,
      to whose style the wa-wa of the Oliver version is much nearer than to Oliver
      himself.

      Why was 'Sugar' resurrected in 1931 ? Was it a deliberate attempt at
      archaism ? It is possible to hear the solo here as a pastiche of Dunn and my
      guess it is Rex.

      As far as I know, 'Where That Old Man River Flows' was never issued and
      does not survive.

      Dave


















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    • Howard Rye
      This has been worked over too often to arouse much enthusiasm I¹m afraid. We don¹t know. We never will know. The Frog personnel is probably the one
      Message 2 of 4 , Nov 17, 2008
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        This has been worked over too often to arouse much enthusiasm I¹m afraid. We
        don¹t know. We never will know.

        The Frog personnel is probably the one speculated by Laurie Wright on the
        basis of the personnel Oliver was assembling for a forthcoming tour and
        various interview data.

        He also thinks it is Morton aurally but Morton consistently over many years
        denied that he ever worked with Oliver. Fred Skerritt identified himself,
        and named Elkins, Morton, Barnes, Wheeler, Nipton and Moore. There is other
        more nebulous stuff from Clyde Bernhardt who said he was meant to be a
        second trombonist but Oliver failed to contact him in time. He also
        identified Morton and said the pianist was Henry Duncan.

        The solo charts attribute the wa wa solo on Sugar to Oliver.

        Don¹t understand the puzzle about Sugar Blues. Clyde McCoy recorded his
        definitive corn version for Columbia on 22 January 1931. Brunswick were
        covering it with a cheap band.


        on 17/11/2008 09:57, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

        >
        >
        >
        > Hello Bob
        >
        > We have considered Oliver, wa-wa and specifically 'Sugar Blues' here
        > before.
        >
        > The personnel in Rust-2 is largely unknowns, however, by the time of the
        > Frog reissue of 2000, a complete 'probable' personnel has emerged,
        > provenance unknown to me. The trombonist is listed here as, and sounds like,
        > Bennie Morton. Morton was with Henderson at this time, as was Rex Stewart
        > who always claimed a date with Oliver.
        >
        > To my ears, the broad wa-wa solo on 'Sugar' cannot be Oliver and the solo
        > on 'I'm Crazy' sounds like Rex.
        >
        > Suggested comparisons, the Henderson 'I'm Crazy' of April 25 1931, on which
        > both Rex and Morton solo extensively, and the 1923 'Sugar' of Johhny Dunn,
        > to whose style the wa-wa of the Oliver version is much nearer than to Oliver
        > himself.
        >
        > Why was 'Sugar' resurrected in 1931 ? Was it a deliberate attempt at
        > archaism ? It is possible to hear the solo here as a pastiche of Dunn and my
        > guess it is Rex.
        >
        > As far as I know, 'Where That Old Man River Flows' was never issued and
        > does not survive.
        >
        > Dave
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


        Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
        howard@...
        Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David Brown
        Hello Howard McCoy had -- mercifully -- managed to elude me till now. The 22 Jan date would surely preclude any influence on Oliver on 19 Feb. Certainly
        Message 3 of 4 , Nov 17, 2008
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          Hello Howard

          McCoy had -- mercifully -- managed to elude me till now. The 22 Jan date
          would surely preclude any influence on Oliver on 19 Feb. Certainly Oliver's
          version is very different and comparatively musical. Where would McCoy have
          picked up this repertoire ?

          I still hear the wa-wa on Oliver's version as burlesque, albeit not nearly
          as gross as McCoy's, with which I cannot possibly demean Oliver.

          ' His wa-wa's, his piercing cries, were not the crude or haphazard attempts
          of a musical semi-literate to play (and to imitate the human voice)
          expressively by bastard and
          essentially non-musical means. They were the careful and deliberate personal
          techniques of a sensitive and innovative player-artist. The almost
          unbearable anguish of King Oliver's horn (as John Martin called it) was
          something he worked long and carefully to be able to project.' Martin
          Williams 'King Oliver' -- Kings Of Jazz

          Dave








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