Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Query about King Oliver & His Orchestra

Expand Messages
  • Robert Smith
    On February 18, 1931 King Oliver & His Orchestra recorded three titles, viz.: Where That Ol Man River Flows Sugar Blues I m Crazy About My Baby Allen and Rust
    Message 1 of 4 , Nov 14, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      On February 18, 1931 King Oliver & His Orchestra recorded three titles, viz.:
      Where That Ol' Man River Flows
      Sugar Blues
      I'm Crazy About My Baby
      Allen and Rust list the orchestra as King Oliver and ten unknowns.
      My query is whether any more information has been unearthed specifically about this orchestra, or more generally about the other unknowns scattered about the discography?

      Any information will be gratefully received, and diligently noted.

      Bob Smith

      --
      Jeg bruker gratisversjonen av SPAMfighter for privatbrukere.
      Den har fjernet 7029 søppelpostmeldinger til nå.
      Betalende brukere har ikke denne meldingen i e-postene sine.
      Få tak i SPAMfighter gratis her: http://www.spamfighter.com/lno


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • David Brown
      Hello Bob We have considered Oliver, wa-wa and specifically Sugar Blues here before. The personnel in Rust-2 is largely unknowns, however, by the time of
      Message 2 of 4 , Nov 17, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Hello Bob

        We have considered Oliver, wa-wa and specifically 'Sugar Blues' here
        before.

        The personnel in Rust-2 is largely unknowns, however, by the time of the
        Frog reissue of 2000, a complete 'probable' personnel has emerged,
        provenance unknown to me. The trombonist is listed here as, and sounds like,
        Bennie Morton. Morton was with Henderson at this time, as was Rex Stewart
        who always claimed a date with Oliver.

        To my ears, the broad wa-wa solo on 'Sugar' cannot be Oliver and the solo
        on 'I'm Crazy' sounds like Rex.

        Suggested comparisons, the Henderson 'I'm Crazy' of April 25 1931, on which
        both Rex and Morton solo extensively, and the 1923 'Sugar' of Johhny Dunn,
        to whose style the wa-wa of the Oliver version is much nearer than to Oliver
        himself.

        Why was 'Sugar' resurrected in 1931 ? Was it a deliberate attempt at
        archaism ? It is possible to hear the solo here as a pastiche of Dunn and my
        guess it is Rex.

        As far as I know, 'Where That Old Man River Flows' was never issued and
        does not survive.

        Dave


















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Howard Rye
        This has been worked over too often to arouse much enthusiasm I¹m afraid. We don¹t know. We never will know. The Frog personnel is probably the one
        Message 3 of 4 , Nov 17, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          This has been worked over too often to arouse much enthusiasm I¹m afraid. We
          don¹t know. We never will know.

          The Frog personnel is probably the one speculated by Laurie Wright on the
          basis of the personnel Oliver was assembling for a forthcoming tour and
          various interview data.

          He also thinks it is Morton aurally but Morton consistently over many years
          denied that he ever worked with Oliver. Fred Skerritt identified himself,
          and named Elkins, Morton, Barnes, Wheeler, Nipton and Moore. There is other
          more nebulous stuff from Clyde Bernhardt who said he was meant to be a
          second trombonist but Oliver failed to contact him in time. He also
          identified Morton and said the pianist was Henry Duncan.

          The solo charts attribute the wa wa solo on Sugar to Oliver.

          Don¹t understand the puzzle about Sugar Blues. Clyde McCoy recorded his
          definitive corn version for Columbia on 22 January 1931. Brunswick were
          covering it with a cheap band.


          on 17/11/2008 09:57, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

          >
          >
          >
          > Hello Bob
          >
          > We have considered Oliver, wa-wa and specifically 'Sugar Blues' here
          > before.
          >
          > The personnel in Rust-2 is largely unknowns, however, by the time of the
          > Frog reissue of 2000, a complete 'probable' personnel has emerged,
          > provenance unknown to me. The trombonist is listed here as, and sounds like,
          > Bennie Morton. Morton was with Henderson at this time, as was Rex Stewart
          > who always claimed a date with Oliver.
          >
          > To my ears, the broad wa-wa solo on 'Sugar' cannot be Oliver and the solo
          > on 'I'm Crazy' sounds like Rex.
          >
          > Suggested comparisons, the Henderson 'I'm Crazy' of April 25 1931, on which
          > both Rex and Morton solo extensively, and the 1923 'Sugar' of Johhny Dunn,
          > to whose style the wa-wa of the Oliver version is much nearer than to Oliver
          > himself.
          >
          > Why was 'Sugar' resurrected in 1931 ? Was it a deliberate attempt at
          > archaism ? It is possible to hear the solo here as a pastiche of Dunn and my
          > guess it is Rex.
          >
          > As far as I know, 'Where That Old Man River Flows' was never issued and
          > does not survive.
          >
          > Dave
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
          howard@...
          Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David Brown
          Hello Howard McCoy had -- mercifully -- managed to elude me till now. The 22 Jan date would surely preclude any influence on Oliver on 19 Feb. Certainly
          Message 4 of 4 , Nov 17, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Hello Howard

            McCoy had -- mercifully -- managed to elude me till now. The 22 Jan date
            would surely preclude any influence on Oliver on 19 Feb. Certainly Oliver's
            version is very different and comparatively musical. Where would McCoy have
            picked up this repertoire ?

            I still hear the wa-wa on Oliver's version as burlesque, albeit not nearly
            as gross as McCoy's, with which I cannot possibly demean Oliver.

            ' His wa-wa's, his piercing cries, were not the crude or haphazard attempts
            of a musical semi-literate to play (and to imitate the human voice)
            expressively by bastard and
            essentially non-musical means. They were the careful and deliberate personal
            techniques of a sensitive and innovative player-artist. The almost
            unbearable anguish of King Oliver's horn (as John Martin called it) was
            something he worked long and carefully to be able to project.' Martin
            Williams 'King Oliver' -- Kings Of Jazz

            Dave








            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.