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Re: [RedHotJazz] Bennies Moten & Waters (was Re: Arville Harris, etc.), with a query at the end

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  • yves francois
    Howard, David, Michael Howard, are right in this regard (Fuller) and I must add to this that there are several records I was listening to last week with him
    Message 1 of 1 , Sep 1, 2008
      Howard, David, Michael
      Howard, are right in this regard (Fuller) and I must add to this that there are several records I was listening to last week with him that he sounded quite bad, others (after I have written my bit) proved me wrong, but then the Panassaie quote I mentioned actually explains the muse that musicians live or in the studio with (some musicians actually record better in the 30/40's studio settings than they sound on the live broadcasts from that era). I don't think the quote was meant to say that the musicians necessarily plays better live or in the studio, but that the quality of a musicians work can vary quite a bit from each session and live performance.
      R&B reed players come from the same tradition that many non NOLA* ("creole" based styles) Afro American clarinet players do, so the similarities should be there, after all it is a reason to make a living, and the form of expression between 20/30's Harlem jazz and 40/50's Harlem r&b may sometimes even be the same people (Clyde Bernhardt, Al Sears^, Jimmy Wright, Happy Caldwell - the latter led a band clubs like the Celebrity club for years - much like Tate - I don't think happy was playing Knocking A Jug, sort to speak), after all Kid Thomas in NOLA played R&B hits right along with pops and "dixieland" standards.
      RE: Harris, could he be a chameleon (maybe that is why Clarence liked him?), check the blues vocal recordings on the QRS CD where the blues singers are recorded, there is some good clarinet. Midnight Stomp, if it is even Harris, would prove the chameleon like aspect in his playing. No I do not hear "Red Hot Flo", I do hear a somewhat funky player with some technique. The vibrato is different, and it is only 18 months later. I saw a recent heading for Harvey Boone, I would like to check his work to "Midnight Stomp", maybe he is the clarinet on that title (or maybe he, instead of Arville, on the blues singers quartet recordings for QRS)
      RE: Fuller, the Panassaie quote just bit me in the back, eh? Maybe I should of stuck to Elliott, a player who I just may not enjoy very much, the duets they did are nice (checked it out) and Fuller has made some records that are good with Christian etc, I just prefer , say Jari or Moten on the 1926/7 Williams.
      Did Bob Fuller, Ernest Elliott or Arville Harris recorded in the later 30's or 40's that is documented, I wonder (maybe some of them died before then, though Harris was alive after the war), I would be interested in that.

      * of course I am not saying that NOLA musicians did not play "hokum", honks etc, just that the shared tradition with Martinique and other island players have, compare the creole work of Bechet, Nooner and the creole influenced work of Dodds with the Stellios and Delouches.

      ^ Al Sears plays a bit in a 1929 Zach Whyte records that actually presages the whole R&B role for the tenor and bari sax, "Hum All Your Troubles Away" from 1929 shows the best link between the hokum and the honk.

      --- On Mon, 9/1/08, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
      From: Howard Rye <howard@...>
      Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Bennies Moten & Waters (was Re: Arville Harris, etc.), into musicians and recording
      To: "red hot jazz" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Monday, September 1, 2008, 5:17 AM

      I think this question needs to be qualified. I can think of numerous

      examples from recent years of players who sound better on live recordings

      than they do on their over-engineered, polished to remove all trace of

      spontaneity, studio recordings. There are no live recordings to speak of

      from the 20s, except of course that all wax masters are Œlive¹! So we¹re

      looking at a relatively small window (early 30s to early 50s at latest) for

      examples which would actually have any relevance. We need to look for

      examples from before recording engineers considered themselves the most

      important participants in the recording process and the expression of their

      ideas as its aim.

      Bob Fuller was a player with real fire in his belly. Is the reference to

      ŒDoddsian inflections¹ really saying anything more than that he embraced a

      blues-soaked style of playing that we most associate with Dodds? Fuller

      fatally harmed his own reputation by his ability to switch from passionate

      inventiveness to cliched hokum (and back) in a trice. In this respect he

      reminds me of many reed players of the r&b era. I think it goes with the

      territory and for my part I find it foolish to reject the good along with

      the bad.

      on 01/09/2008 10:45, David Brown at johnhaleysims@ yahoo.co. uk wrote:




      > Reports of players sounding better live must be approached with caution. A

      > live gig offers far less scope for detailed analysis and although adrenalin

      > may flow it can be that of the listener as well as the player. We must judge

      > from what we have on record although possible that some players were

      > intimidated by the studio. However, we have few -- any ? -- examples of

      > players sounding better, or significantly different, on a 'live' recording.


      > I admire both Sticky Elliot and Bob Fuller but admit hokum in their work.

      > Actually the 'West End Blues' solo is fine except for the moment of

      > Crawleyesque excess.


      > I especially love the work of Fuller and Sticky in tandem on the Bessies --

      > a joy.


      > Ostensibly, Fuller, with indeed Doddsian inflections, would be a rather

      > unpolished 'Flo' candidate but seems to have been in an 'opposing' musical

      > clique and never worked for Clarence.


      > Dave


      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




      Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB

      howard@coppermill. demon.co. uk

      Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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