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RE: [RedHotJazz] Bennies Moten & Waters (was Re: Arville Harris, etc.), into musicians and recording

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  • David Brown
    Reports of players sounding better live must be approached with caution. A live gig offers far less scope for detailed analysis and although adrenalin may flow
    Message 1 of 23 , Sep 1 2:45 AM
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      Reports of players sounding better live must be approached with caution. A
      live gig offers far less scope for detailed analysis and although adrenalin
      may flow it can be that of the listener as well as the player. We must judge
      from what we have on record although possible that some players were
      intimidated by the studio. However, we have few -- any ? -- examples of
      players sounding better, or significantly different, on a 'live' recording.

      I admire both Sticky Elliot and Bob Fuller but admit hokum in their work.
      Actually the 'West End Blues' solo is fine except for the moment of
      Crawleyesque excess.

      I especially love the work of Fuller and Sticky in tandem on the Bessies --
      a joy.

      Ostensibly, Fuller, with indeed Doddsian inflections, would be a rather
      unpolished 'Flo' candidate but seems to have been in an 'opposing' musical
      clique and never worked for Clarence.

      Dave





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    • Howard Rye
      I think this question needs to be qualified. I can think of numerous examples from recent years of players who sound better on live recordings than they do on
      Message 2 of 23 , Sep 1 3:17 AM
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        I think this question needs to be qualified. I can think of numerous
        examples from recent years of players who sound better on live recordings
        than they do on their over-engineered, polished to remove all trace of
        spontaneity, studio recordings. There are no live recordings to speak of
        from the 20s, except of course that all wax masters are Œlive¹! So we¹re
        looking at a relatively small window (early 30s to early 50s at latest) for
        examples which would actually have any relevance. We need to look for
        examples from before recording engineers considered themselves the most
        important participants in the recording process and the expression of their
        ideas as its aim.

        Bob Fuller was a player with real fire in his belly. Is the reference to
        ŒDoddsian inflections¹ really saying anything more than that he embraced a
        blues-soaked style of playing that we most associate with Dodds? Fuller
        fatally harmed his own reputation by his ability to switch from passionate
        inventiveness to cliched hokum (and back) in a trice. In this respect he
        reminds me of many reed players of the r&b era. I think it goes with the
        territory and for my part I find it foolish to reject the good along with
        the bad.


        on 01/09/2008 10:45, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

        >
        >
        >
        > Reports of players sounding better live must be approached with caution. A
        > live gig offers far less scope for detailed analysis and although adrenalin
        > may flow it can be that of the listener as well as the player. We must judge
        > from what we have on record although possible that some players were
        > intimidated by the studio. However, we have few -- any ? -- examples of
        > players sounding better, or significantly different, on a 'live' recording.
        >
        > I admire both Sticky Elliot and Bob Fuller but admit hokum in their work.
        > Actually the 'West End Blues' solo is fine except for the moment of
        > Crawleyesque excess.
        >
        > I especially love the work of Fuller and Sticky in tandem on the Bessies --
        > a joy.
        >
        > Ostensibly, Fuller, with indeed Doddsian inflections, would be a rather
        > unpolished 'Flo' candidate but seems to have been in an 'opposing' musical
        > clique and never worked for Clarence.
        >
        > Dave
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


        Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
        howard@...
        Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David Brown
        Howard Recent years I generally don t do but would be interested in examples. Also when is live live ? Performing on stage before a battery of mikes and
        Message 3 of 23 , Sep 1 7:09 AM
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          Howard

          'Recent years' I generally don't do but would be interested in examples.
          Also when is live live ? Performing on stage before a battery of mikes and
          engineers is different from performing to surreptitious cassette machine in
          a handbag or Dean Benedetti in the toilet. And I guess Parker could be
          considered an example of 'live' enhancement but no means always.

          Your analogy with R&B honkers is good. Just sampled some Fuller and I
          recommend 'Black Cat Blues' 3 Mar 1925. You might be right on Dodds input
          but hard to hear those smears from low to high as not from Dodds but 1925 is
          early for circulation of Dodds records. But indeed many other elements in
          his original style. I think we know nothing about his origins or sources but
          I guess Sweatman must enter.

          Michael

          My posit of divided NYC black spheres was influenced by the fact that
          Clarence never used Fuller who was far better than most of the clarinets he
          did use.


          Dave




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        • Howard Rye
          I was afraid you¹d ask that since most of the examples that come readily to my mind are blues rather than jazz. Compare B.B. King Live At The Apollo (1990,
          Message 4 of 23 , Sep 1 8:14 AM
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            I was afraid you¹d ask that since most of the examples that come readily to
            my mind are blues rather than jazz. Compare B.B. King Live At The Apollo
            (1990, MCA MCD09637) with any of his MCA studio albums, which have their
            merits, but if I had to choose, no contest. I think it would be well
            off-topic to pursue this line. Another blues artist who comes to mind whose
            live performances far outclass his records is Bobby Rush.

            One of the problems with earlier material is that live recordings tend to be
            sonically much poorer, which can sometimes lead to difficulty in judgement.

            There is astoundingly little difference in musical quality between the
            various live recordings of Coleman Hawkins in Europe in the 30s which have
            trickled out and the studio recordings which were made. It seems clear he
            really did achieve that standard night after night after night as our elders
            told us. Clearly he could also blithely ignore the ghastliest rhythm
            sections. Three 1936 sides with Morris & His Music at the Club MacMahon,
            Genève, on 15 October 1936, which recently appeared on ŒJazz In Switzerland
            1930-1975¹ (Elite Special 9544002/1-4) make these points pretty
            dramatically.

            The legendary and brilliant 1940 Fargo concert by Duke Ellington¹s orchestra
            displays a side of the band not entirely captured on disc but it would be
            cavalier to suggest it was better than the generality of the studio
            recordings.

            The 1943 translation of ŒLe Vrai Jazz¹ was for fairly obvious reasons not
            seen or authorised by the author and had been translated from a manuscript
            badly damaged in transit under war conditions. This edition was disowned by
            the author, but the passage quoted by Yves does appear in the authorised
            translation of 1960. The next sentence is revealing: ³All of this only goes
            to prove that it is just as difficult to judge a musician correctly after
            many direct auditions as after many recordings.² The context is one of
            establishing the value of recordings against those who say that a musician
            can only be judged by live performance.

            A bit further on my eye was caught by a reference to ³the shopworn
            sentimentalism which is crushing the real heart of the world,² which is a
            nice turn of phrase.


            on 01/09/2008 15:09, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

            >
            >
            >
            > Howard
            >
            > 'Recent years' I generally don't do but would be interested in examples.
            > Also when is live live ? Performing on stage before a battery of mikes and
            > engineers is different from performing to surreptitious cassette machine in
            > a handbag or Dean Benedetti in the toilet. And I guess Parker could be
            > considered an example of 'live' enhancement but no means always.
            >


            Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
            howard@...
            Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • David Brown
            shop-worn sentimentalism -- is indeed a wonderful phrase even if probably translator enhanced. Now what was he referring to ? [Non-text portions of this
            Message 5 of 23 , Sep 2 12:24 AM
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              ' shop-worn sentimentalism -- ' is indeed a wonderful phrase even if
              probably translator enhanced.

              Now what was he referring to ?






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Howard Rye
              Unfortunately I don¹t have Le Vrai Jazz in French so I can¹t tell you, but he approved this translation and his English was quite good enough to know what he
              Message 6 of 23 , Sep 2 2:54 AM
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                Unfortunately I don¹t have Le Vrai Jazz in French so I can¹t tell you, but
                he approved this translation and his English was quite good enough to know
                what he was saying.

                But actually this is presented as a quotation from a Madeleine Gautier
                article on Fats Waller in Jazz Hot for July/ August 1939, and it is a new
                translation and not that by Walter Schaap published by Jazz Hot, which was
                bi-lingual up to 1939.

                The original French is: Sa façon de chanter les mélodies les plus tendres
                d¹un air goguenard qui ridiculise le sentimentalisme de bazar sous lequel
                s¹étiole le vrai coeur de monde. (His [Fats¹s] way of singing the tenderest
                melodies in a jeering tone which ridicules the dime store sentimentalism
                with which the true heart of the world is being weakened.....) This is my
                translation not Schaap¹s. Whatever its defects, mine at least makes sense in
                English, whereas I have no idea what Schaap thought he meant by ³the sort of
                showy sentimentality that ridicules withering². I suspect that Œtawdry¹
                would really be the best English translation of Œbazar¹ if I have understood
                the French idiom correctly.

                All of which confirms my original instinct that ³shop-worn sentimentalism²
                is new-minted and pure Panassié!

                I don¹t think it¹s anything more sinister than a rather felicitous
                description of pre-rock pop music (i.e. crooners) in contrast to the way
                Fats Waller and his disciples handled the same songs. That¹s the context
                anyway.

                on 02/09/2008 08:24, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                >
                >
                >
                > ' shop-worn sentimentalism -- ' is indeed a wonderful phrase even if
                > probably translator enhanced.
                >
                > Now what was he referring to ?
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >


                Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                howard@...
                Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Patrice Champarou
                ... From: Howard Rye The original French is: Sa façon de chanter les mélodies les plus tendres d¹un air goguenard qui ridiculise le sentimentalisme de
                Message 7 of 23 , Sep 2 3:15 PM
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Howard Rye"

                  The original French is: Sa façon de chanter les mélodies les plus tendres
                  d¹un air goguenard qui ridiculise le sentimentalisme de bazar sous lequel
                  s¹étiole le vrai coeur de monde. (His [Fats¹s] way of singing the tenderest
                  melodies in a jeering tone which ridicules the dime store sentimentalism
                  with which the true heart of the world is being weakened.....) This is my
                  translation not Schaap¹s. Whatever its defects, mine at least makes sense in
                  English, whereas I have no idea what Schaap thought he meant by ³the sort of
                  showy sentimentality that ridicules withering².

                  Native speaker (and born hair-splitter) confirms, maybe the shortcut looks
                  cute but assuming it means anything at all, I wonder how he managed to link
                  it to the rest of the sentence. If you just keep the main words, the
                  structure is definitely "Fat's way of singing/ridicules/sentimentalism", any
                  substitution woud be a confusion.

                  P.
                • Patrice Champarou
                  ... or rather (his) tone/ridicules/sentimentalism (which boils down to the same thing, but I do not want to add more confusion to a verbless sentence)
                  Message 8 of 23 , Sep 2 3:27 PM
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                    > "Fat's way of singing/ridicules/sentimentalism"
                    or rather "(his) tone/ridicules/sentimentalism" (which boils down to the
                    same thing, but I do not want to add more confusion to a verbless sentence)
                  • Howard Rye
                    It¹s not verbless in the original, Patrice. I only translated the relevant clauses. It goes on and on with a long list of characteristics of Fats Waller¹s
                    Message 9 of 23 , Sep 2 3:34 PM
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                      It¹s not verbless in the original, Patrice. I only translated the relevant
                      clauses. It goes on and on with a long list of characteristics of Fats
                      Waller¹s playing and eventually ends with ³tout cela se reflète dans son
                      jeu² (all this is reflected in his playing).


                      on 02/09/2008 23:27, Patrice Champarou at patrice.champarou@... wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >> > "Fat's way of singing/ridicules/sentimentalism"
                      > or rather "(his) tone/ridicules/sentimentalism" (which boils down to the
                      > same thing, but I do not want to add more confusion to a verbless sentence)
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                      howard@...
                      Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Bob Mates
                      I certainly don t know French, but I do know that a strong point of Fats s sing was to take the inane, overly-sentimental lyrics to a song, and, by over-doing
                      Message 10 of 23 , Sep 2 4:52 PM
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                        I certainly don't know French, but I do know that a strong point
                        of Fats's sing was to take the inane, overly-sentimental lyrics
                        to a song, and, by over-doing them, satirize them. You laughed,
                        both at his vocal antics, and at the lyrics, because they were
                        made to sound more ridiculous, as he made fun of them. Bob
                      • David Brown
                        I love Fats but he demeaned the great songs along with the dross. Compare with, for instance, Billie who enhanced the dross as well as the great songs. Or with
                        Message 11 of 23 , Sep 3 1:51 AM
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                          I love Fats but he demeaned the great songs along with the dross. Compare
                          with, for instance, Billie who enhanced the dross as well as the great
                          songs. Or with Louis who delivered the utmost dross with such sincerity you
                          believe it -- almost.

                          I think Waller's legacy would be even greater had he respected more both his
                          material and his own ability to transcend it.

                          Dave



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                        • Bob Mates
                          It just goes to prove that, more than any other form of music, jazz is an outgrowth of the performer s personality. Billie s songs were full of emotion,
                          Message 12 of 23 , Sep 3 3:09 AM
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                            It just goes to prove that, more than any other form of music,
                            jazz is an outgrowth of the performer's personality. Billie's
                            songs were full of emotion, because her whole life was that way.
                            Her love songs were kind of her cry for love. Louis loved the
                            schmultzy stuff; making you believe it was part of the
                            performance. From what I've read about Fats, he didn't really
                            take any music very seriously, except church music and classical
                            music. Everything else was fair game. Some say he took away
                            from his ability, but I don't know. I think he pulled you in
                            with the humor, and then, when you were hooked, made you realize
                            what a truly great performer and musician he was. Remember: he
                            wasn't playing for the purists, but for the public. I had a lot
                            of Fats stuff on vinyl, but it's back in Pittsburgh. Someday, I
                            hope to get it up here, to Grand Rapids. Take care, everyone.
                            Bob
                          • Tommer
                            ... Interesting reading. I do believe that being funny is not a choice anyone can make, it is a gift, and I also believe Fats Waller wanted to make other
                            Message 13 of 23 , Sep 4 3:56 PM
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                              --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Bob Mates <bluesbob@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi, Dave: You have a good point: perhaps, Fats was a victim of
                              > his own persona; had to live up to his image. When that happens,
                              > you try to be funny. Of course, when you try, you usually
                              > aren't.
                              > This whole area of discussion about artists, trapped by their
                              > public persona, is an interesting one. Nadine Kohodas, in her
                              > biography of Dinah Washington, says that, in her later years,
                              > (seems funny to write that phrase, since Dinah died at age 38),
                              > she tried to live up to her nickname, "the queen". It changed
                              > her personality, and it made her spend so much money, that when
                              > she died, she was deep in debt. As for Fats, I've read that, by
                              > the end of his life, he was getting tired of the grind of
                              > touring. Perhaps, if he'd lived, he would have devoted more time
                              > to writing Broadway shows, which he really enjoyed. Perhaps,
                              > too, as the musical tastes had changed, he wouldn't have been
                              > expected to be funny all of the time, and you would have heard a
                              > lot of different stuff.

                              Interesting reading. I do believe that being funny is not a choice
                              anyone can make, it is a gift, and I also believe Fats Waller wanted
                              to make other people happy, and so was his music. IMO Fats Waller
                              wanted to be grouped with artists like James Johnson and Art Tatum
                              and not Teddy Wilson, but many would place him there, only when
                              seriously thinking about him the connection to the first group is
                              more understood. Pannasie and Schuller both had winding ways to deal
                              with this situation, I might later try to excerpt but the reason I
                              wanted to reply is because an article by John S. Wilson
                              titled 'Thomas "Fats" Waller':
                              <<<<begin excerpt:
                              Both Fats Waller and his principal tutor, James P. Johnson, lived
                              lives of aching frustrations. Johnson ached openly because he could
                              find no audience for his serious compositions, but Waller's desire to
                              find acceptance as a serious musician was burried under a heavy
                              coating of pervasive geniality.

                              ....

                              Gene Sedric, the saxophonist and clarinettist in Fats's little band
                              from 1938 to 1943, remembers times when Waller was so full of his
                              feeling for serious music that he couldn't help playing, even in a
                              nightclub, with all the musicality of which he was capable. But this
                              wasn't the Fats that the customers had paid to hear. 'people in the
                              audience would think he was lying down', Sedric says.b 'They'd
                              yell, "Come on Fats!". He'd take a swig of gin or something and say
                              resignedly,"Aw right, here it is"'
                              <<<<<<<<end excerpt

                              The article certainly leaves space for imagination, but still it
                              seems in the right spirit.

                              There are more details on the article which is too long to quote, for
                              instance about Fats attitude at the organ differently from the piano.
                              I have this article on "Reading Jazz"/ selected writings of several
                              writers edited by Robert Gotllieb and it is written "Also from
                              Shapiro and Hentoff's The Jazz Makers"

                              Tommer
                            • Bob Mates
                              Well, it just goes back to what I said before. Obviously, Fats would have wanted to play serious music, but that s not what the public wanted, and, after
                              Message 14 of 23 , Sep 5 9:21 AM
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                                Well, it just goes back to what I said before. Obviously, Fats
                                would have wanted to play "serious" music, but that's not what
                                the public wanted, and, after all they're the ones who paid him.
                                One could even bring racism into the discussion, because many
                                people figured that black folks were supposed to be happy, happy,
                                happy. By the way, while briefly on the subject of racism, it's
                                interesting and very sad to note that many of the jazz clubs, who
                                regularly hired black jazz musicians, wouldn't allow them to
                                patronize with the white customers. Apparently, George Brunies,
                                the trombonist, was an absolute out-and-out racist. I wonder
                                where he thought the music he loved to play came from. Back to
                                Fats: Fats's organ playing was much more serious than was a lot
                                of his piano playing. I think "Jitterbug Waltz" was ahead of its
                                time. Of course, if it's serious playing you're looking for,
                                listen to "London Suite".
                                Just briefly, it occurs to me that, if you believe the 1890 birth
                                date for Jelly Roll, you're going to have to scramble and come up
                                with a lot of new dates for his compositions.
                                Sorry to make a long post like this. Take care, everyone. Bob
                              • Tommer
                                ... Louis Armstrong was surfacing always happy, smiling, laughing, and also, Louis didn t care to abandon hot music and become sweeter with the times going by.
                                Message 15 of 23 , Sep 6 1:33 AM
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                                  --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Bob Mates <bluesbob@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > One could even bring racism into the discussion, because many
                                  > people figured that black folks were supposed to be happy, happy,
                                  > happy. By the way, while briefly on the subject of racism, it's
                                  > interesting and very sad to note that many of the jazz clubs, who
                                  > regularly hired black jazz musicians, wouldn't allow them to
                                  > patronize with the white customers.

                                  Louis Armstrong was surfacing always happy, smiling, laughing, and
                                  also, Louis didn't care to abandon hot music and become sweeter with
                                  the times going by. But Louis Armstrong will forever be a great
                                  musician. Was Fats Waller was influenced by Armstrong's charisma,
                                  (and not just the singing style)?

                                  Bob, what does it mean to patronize with the white customers?

                                  I also wonder whether there were "uncle tom" accusations against Fats
                                  Waller. There were such at Louis Armstrong.
                                  Tommer
                                • Bob Mates
                                  It meant that many clubs wouldn t let their black musicians sit and have a drink with the white customers. They weren t allowed to mix with the customers at
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Sep 6 9:08 AM
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                                    It meant that many clubs wouldn't let their black musicians sit
                                    and have a drink with the white customers. They weren't allowed
                                    to mix with the customers at all. I'm not aware of any "uncle
                                    tom" accusations against Fats. Those charges were levelled again
                                    Louis Armstrong, because he wouldn't participate in civil rights
                                    demonstrations. This was long after Fats was dead. Bob
                                  • Tommer
                                    ... Bob, sure the movement of the 1950 s that was the beginning of black panthers and other movements like that that were using uncle tomming as a measure of
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Sep 7 1:50 AM
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                                      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Bob Mates <bluesbob@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > It meant that many clubs wouldn't let their black musicians sit
                                      > and have a drink with the white customers. They weren't allowed
                                      > to mix with the customers at all. I'm not aware of any "uncle
                                      > tom" accusations against Fats. Those charges were levelled again
                                      > Louis Armstrong, because he wouldn't participate in civil rights
                                      > demonstrations. This was long after Fats was dead. Bob
                                      >

                                      Bob, sure the movement of the 1950's that was the beginning of black
                                      panthers and other movements like that that were using "uncle
                                      tomming" as a measure of negative contribution to their causes which
                                      they thought to be identical with African Americans causes, were
                                      after Fats was long gone, however, on the historical level I was
                                      wondering what historically and officially was the movement opinion
                                      about Fats, hopefully someone has an answer.
                                      Tommer
                                    • Bob Mates
                                      My understanding has always been that Fats was just as popular with blacks as he was with whites, while he was alive. He was universally loved. The one thing
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Sep 7 12:02 PM
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                                        My understanding has always been that Fats was just as popular
                                        with blacks as he was with whites, while he was alive. He was
                                        universally loved.
                                        The one thing that's important to know is that people's views of
                                        music can change, depending upon your situation. For instance,
                                        many black people rejected the blues as "slavery music". It
                                        didn't jibe with the new image African-Americans wanted to
                                        convey. Let me give you a more personal example. I'm a blind
                                        person. Now, I love Ray Charles. I think he was a great
                                        performer. However, many blind people go out of their way to say
                                        that they don't like Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder or Jose
                                        Feliciano. It has to do with the fact that many people will say
                                        to you, "so, I guess that, being blind, you really dig Stevie
                                        Wonder, huh?". So, you either say that you can't stand the guy,
                                        or you go into this thing about how you do like him, but his
                                        blindness has nothing to do with it.
                                        In Fats's case, as times changed from might have changed the way
                                        they perceived his music. But, as I said, my understanding is
                                        that he was extremely popular while he was alive. Bob
                                      • Robert Greenwood
                                        ... black ... which ... Leaving aside the satirical possibilities (which greatly cheer me) of Bobby Seale or Huey P. Newton issuing an official edict on Fats
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Sep 8 3:25 AM
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                                          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Tommer" <tommersl@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Bob, sure the movement of the 1950's that was the beginning of
                                          black
                                          > panthers and other movements like that that were using "uncle
                                          > tomming" as a measure of negative contribution to their causes
                                          which
                                          > they thought to be identical with African Americans causes, were
                                          > after Fats was long gone, however, on the historical level I was
                                          > wondering what historically and officially was the movement opinion
                                          > about Fats, hopefully someone has an answer.
                                          > Tommer
                                          >

                                          Leaving aside the satirical possibilities (which greatly cheer me) of
                                          Bobby Seale or Huey P. Newton issuing an "official" edict on Fats
                                          Waller, the Panthers, although they did some good work, are not noted
                                          for their contribution to jazz criticism. Someone will correct me if
                                          I am wrong. I suspect they had more urgent matters to attend to and
                                          that the constituency they sought among sections of the black
                                          American working class were all listening to Motown anyway and
                                          couldn't care less about Fats.
                                          Robert Greenwood.
                                        • Gilber M. Erskine
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Sep 8 4:53 AM
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                                            <<<Let me give you a more personal example. I'm a blind person. ---Bob Mates>>>

                                            You obviously must depend on someone reading these posts to you. How can you ever be sure that what that person is telling you is correct?
                                            ----------GILBERT M. ERSKINE

                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: Bob Mates
                                            To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 3:02 PM
                                            Subject: re: [RedHotJazz] Re: shopworn sentimentalism (was Bob Fuller musicians and recording)


                                            My understanding has always been that Fats was just as popular
                                            with blacks as he was with whites, while he was alive. He was
                                            universally loved.
                                            The one thing that's important to know is that people's views of
                                            music can change, depending upon your situation. For instance,
                                            many black people rejected the blues as "slavery music". It
                                            didn't jibe with the new image African-Americans wanted to
                                            convey. Let me give you a more personal example. I'm a blind
                                            person. Now, I love Ray Charles. I think he was a great
                                            performer. However, many blind people go out of their way to say
                                            that they don't like Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder or Jose
                                            Feliciano. It has to do with the fact that many people will say
                                            to you, "so, I guess that, being blind, you really dig Stevie
                                            Wonder, huh?". So, you either say that you can't stand the guy,
                                            or you go into this thing about how you do like him, but his
                                            blindness has nothing to do with it.
                                            In Fats's case, as times changed from might have changed the way
                                            they perceived his music. But, as I said, my understanding is
                                            that he was extremely popular while he was alive. Bob





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                                          • Bob Mates
                                            Actually, Gilbert, I have a computer, which reads the posts either in Braille or as speech. Therefore, the only one who can make a mistake is me! hahaha
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Sep 8 9:45 AM
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                                              Actually, Gilbert, I have a computer, which reads the posts
                                              either in Braille or as speech. Therefore, the only one who can
                                              make a mistake is me! hahaha There's a lot of good stuff about
                                              jazz available, either in Braille, or from people scanning it.
                                              Bob
                                            • Gilber M. Erskine
                                              Thanks! ... From: Bob Mates To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: shopworn sentimentalism (was
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Sep 8 1:07 PM
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                                                Thanks!
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: Bob Mates
                                                To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 12:45 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: shopworn sentimentalism (was Bob Fuller musicians and recording)


                                                Actually, Gilbert, I have a computer, which reads the posts
                                                either in Braille or as speech. Therefore, the only one who can
                                                make a mistake is me! hahaha There's a lot of good stuff about
                                                jazz available, either in Braille, or from people scanning it.
                                                Bob





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                                                No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                                                Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1659 - Release Date: 9/8/2008 7:01 AM


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