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RE: [RedHotJazz] Bennies Moten & Waters (was Re: Arville Harris, etc.), into musicians and recording

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  • yves francois
    David etc I was reading Panassie s 1943 edition of The Real Jazz (in English , unfortunately, whomever translated the books really did not do the best job
    Message 1 of 23 , Aug 31, 2008
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      David etc
      I was reading Panassie's 1943 edition of "The Real Jazz" (in English , unfortunately, whomever translated the books really did not do the best job IMHO, and I am speaking this with a limited French vocabulary), and I came about this quote regarding musicians:

      "From my own experience I can say that I have heard some musicians in person who revealed themselves far more capable than I have supposed from their recordings. But just as frequently I have heard musicians in the flesh and found that they did not reveal the same inspiration as they had in their recordings. Moreover I have heard a musician twenty times in various night clubs and judged him insignificant, and to have been amazed upon hearing him for the twenty first time to discover a musician capable of reaching the greatest heights."
      (p201 The Real Jazz 1943 edition)

      Now what does this small essay has to do with Arville, Carmello and a bevy of Benny's? Quite a lot (and add to that Harvey Boone while you are at it), all of these players are better than your average journeyman players that were present in NYC in the later 20's (can you say Ernest Elliot* or Bob Fuller?), they must be, if we are finding various traits of Dodd's work in them, a style that is very difficult to master (must be still today, I hear very few playing that style here in the USA), the point I am making is that perhaps Arville could reach a great peak on occasion (and then modernized his style so that he plays little more than a Thornton Blue sort of role he was hired for in Calloway's band in the early 30's, any later 30's small group sessions with him, I mean there are plenty of black small jazz combos recording in NYC for Decca and others in the latter 30's?), or Carmello may of really pushed his style all out in more informal settings,
      he certainly sounds fine in the 1928 Brunswick 78 with Lew Leslie's Blackbird's IMHO, or one of the Bennie's (though maybe we should even look at Benny Water's though the clarinet vibrato and phrasing does not quite match on "Red Hot Flo" to say the Charlie Johnson 78 of "Harlem Drag"). Maybe I will stick, for now, to Harris, or possibly Jari..., and , yes David I guess I will have to listen to every note of Harvey I can get my paws on soon...
      Yves Francois Smierciak

      PS maybe the clarinet players Clarence went through in the 20's (he did seem to try for Buster Bailey whenever he could) got him to Cecil Scott for the series of recordings he did in the 30's, Cecil was a very individualistic player, very full of vitality and technique, and I, for one, never tire of him, even if the 30's records by Williams are generally less interesting than the 20's sessions (there seems to be less interest in arrangement or ensemble variety, harder to do anyways when you are usually using the same 2 horns for several sessions).

      *I am so glad that we can relieve Arville of that solo on "West End Blues" by King Oliver on Brunswick, does not sound like even the worst Harris IMHO, seeing that many people now credit Ernest Elliott, a musician, who unlike Garvin Bushell (who sounds very good on a recent Bunk CD I bought of a live performance in November 1947), seemed to stay in that early 20's Harlem reed style we all try to forget

      --- On Sat, 8/30/08, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
      From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
      Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Bennies Moten & Waters (was Re: Arville Harris, etc.)
      To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, August 30, 2008, 9:50 AM











      The Nichols analysis of 'New Down Home Blues' seems only to prove the

      clarinet solo could be any of the three reedmen.



      The only placement of Moten/Morton here is from Clarence -- not negligible I

      agree. Do we now read Moten as a misspelling of Clarence's Morton ? And from

      where do we get the Motton variant ? Surely extremely unusual for a musician

      to move so readily and so quickly between the major jazz centres of NYC,

      Chicago and W.Coast ? Union problems at least ? Which speaks for a

      conflated Moten/Morton.



      I have found in 1st ed. 'King Joe Oliver' a report that Bill Russell, no

      less, examined Clarence's files and noted that Harvey Boone appears

      somewhere on the QRSs. He could therefore be the third reedman doubling

      clt/alt on the first session.



      Going through the Hendersons I also cite the session of 27 Apr 1927 as

      offering traces of Dodds style. The Sept 1928 QRSs contain very fluent and

      fast clarinet work on 'St. Louis'. Both sessions in Rust as Arville. The

      Oct 1928 session was originally claimed in 'Joe King Oliver' to also be

      Moten but this was subsequently amended in Rust to (?)Whittet. It certainly

      sounds like another, even less impressive, player than Arville and not like

      'New Down Home Blues'.



      The Bells I have not complete but hear what you mean Yves.



      The Clarence clarinets seem to be a discographical mess and I could extend

      to the actual playing. I agree about the joy of Clarence but it was, after

      all, factory output and can vary disconcertingly even in one session. The

      weakest point is usually the clarinet playing.



      Dave



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    • David Brown
      Reports of players sounding better live must be approached with caution. A live gig offers far less scope for detailed analysis and although adrenalin may flow
      Message 2 of 23 , Sep 1, 2008
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        Reports of players sounding better live must be approached with caution. A
        live gig offers far less scope for detailed analysis and although adrenalin
        may flow it can be that of the listener as well as the player. We must judge
        from what we have on record although possible that some players were
        intimidated by the studio. However, we have few -- any ? -- examples of
        players sounding better, or significantly different, on a 'live' recording.

        I admire both Sticky Elliot and Bob Fuller but admit hokum in their work.
        Actually the 'West End Blues' solo is fine except for the moment of
        Crawleyesque excess.

        I especially love the work of Fuller and Sticky in tandem on the Bessies --
        a joy.

        Ostensibly, Fuller, with indeed Doddsian inflections, would be a rather
        unpolished 'Flo' candidate but seems to have been in an 'opposing' musical
        clique and never worked for Clarence.

        Dave





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      • Howard Rye
        I think this question needs to be qualified. I can think of numerous examples from recent years of players who sound better on live recordings than they do on
        Message 3 of 23 , Sep 1, 2008
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          I think this question needs to be qualified. I can think of numerous
          examples from recent years of players who sound better on live recordings
          than they do on their over-engineered, polished to remove all trace of
          spontaneity, studio recordings. There are no live recordings to speak of
          from the 20s, except of course that all wax masters are Œlive¹! So we¹re
          looking at a relatively small window (early 30s to early 50s at latest) for
          examples which would actually have any relevance. We need to look for
          examples from before recording engineers considered themselves the most
          important participants in the recording process and the expression of their
          ideas as its aim.

          Bob Fuller was a player with real fire in his belly. Is the reference to
          ŒDoddsian inflections¹ really saying anything more than that he embraced a
          blues-soaked style of playing that we most associate with Dodds? Fuller
          fatally harmed his own reputation by his ability to switch from passionate
          inventiveness to cliched hokum (and back) in a trice. In this respect he
          reminds me of many reed players of the r&b era. I think it goes with the
          territory and for my part I find it foolish to reject the good along with
          the bad.


          on 01/09/2008 10:45, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

          >
          >
          >
          > Reports of players sounding better live must be approached with caution. A
          > live gig offers far less scope for detailed analysis and although adrenalin
          > may flow it can be that of the listener as well as the player. We must judge
          > from what we have on record although possible that some players were
          > intimidated by the studio. However, we have few -- any ? -- examples of
          > players sounding better, or significantly different, on a 'live' recording.
          >
          > I admire both Sticky Elliot and Bob Fuller but admit hokum in their work.
          > Actually the 'West End Blues' solo is fine except for the moment of
          > Crawleyesque excess.
          >
          > I especially love the work of Fuller and Sticky in tandem on the Bessies --
          > a joy.
          >
          > Ostensibly, Fuller, with indeed Doddsian inflections, would be a rather
          > unpolished 'Flo' candidate but seems to have been in an 'opposing' musical
          > clique and never worked for Clarence.
          >
          > Dave
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
          howard@...
          Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David Brown
          Howard Recent years I generally don t do but would be interested in examples. Also when is live live ? Performing on stage before a battery of mikes and
          Message 4 of 23 , Sep 1, 2008
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            Howard

            'Recent years' I generally don't do but would be interested in examples.
            Also when is live live ? Performing on stage before a battery of mikes and
            engineers is different from performing to surreptitious cassette machine in
            a handbag or Dean Benedetti in the toilet. And I guess Parker could be
            considered an example of 'live' enhancement but no means always.

            Your analogy with R&B honkers is good. Just sampled some Fuller and I
            recommend 'Black Cat Blues' 3 Mar 1925. You might be right on Dodds input
            but hard to hear those smears from low to high as not from Dodds but 1925 is
            early for circulation of Dodds records. But indeed many other elements in
            his original style. I think we know nothing about his origins or sources but
            I guess Sweatman must enter.

            Michael

            My posit of divided NYC black spheres was influenced by the fact that
            Clarence never used Fuller who was far better than most of the clarinets he
            did use.


            Dave




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          • Howard Rye
            I was afraid you¹d ask that since most of the examples that come readily to my mind are blues rather than jazz. Compare B.B. King Live At The Apollo (1990,
            Message 5 of 23 , Sep 1, 2008
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              I was afraid you¹d ask that since most of the examples that come readily to
              my mind are blues rather than jazz. Compare B.B. King Live At The Apollo
              (1990, MCA MCD09637) with any of his MCA studio albums, which have their
              merits, but if I had to choose, no contest. I think it would be well
              off-topic to pursue this line. Another blues artist who comes to mind whose
              live performances far outclass his records is Bobby Rush.

              One of the problems with earlier material is that live recordings tend to be
              sonically much poorer, which can sometimes lead to difficulty in judgement.

              There is astoundingly little difference in musical quality between the
              various live recordings of Coleman Hawkins in Europe in the 30s which have
              trickled out and the studio recordings which were made. It seems clear he
              really did achieve that standard night after night after night as our elders
              told us. Clearly he could also blithely ignore the ghastliest rhythm
              sections. Three 1936 sides with Morris & His Music at the Club MacMahon,
              Genève, on 15 October 1936, which recently appeared on ŒJazz In Switzerland
              1930-1975¹ (Elite Special 9544002/1-4) make these points pretty
              dramatically.

              The legendary and brilliant 1940 Fargo concert by Duke Ellington¹s orchestra
              displays a side of the band not entirely captured on disc but it would be
              cavalier to suggest it was better than the generality of the studio
              recordings.

              The 1943 translation of ŒLe Vrai Jazz¹ was for fairly obvious reasons not
              seen or authorised by the author and had been translated from a manuscript
              badly damaged in transit under war conditions. This edition was disowned by
              the author, but the passage quoted by Yves does appear in the authorised
              translation of 1960. The next sentence is revealing: ³All of this only goes
              to prove that it is just as difficult to judge a musician correctly after
              many direct auditions as after many recordings.² The context is one of
              establishing the value of recordings against those who say that a musician
              can only be judged by live performance.

              A bit further on my eye was caught by a reference to ³the shopworn
              sentimentalism which is crushing the real heart of the world,² which is a
              nice turn of phrase.


              on 01/09/2008 15:09, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

              >
              >
              >
              > Howard
              >
              > 'Recent years' I generally don't do but would be interested in examples.
              > Also when is live live ? Performing on stage before a battery of mikes and
              > engineers is different from performing to surreptitious cassette machine in
              > a handbag or Dean Benedetti in the toilet. And I guess Parker could be
              > considered an example of 'live' enhancement but no means always.
              >


              Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
              howard@...
              Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • David Brown
              shop-worn sentimentalism -- is indeed a wonderful phrase even if probably translator enhanced. Now what was he referring to ? [Non-text portions of this
              Message 6 of 23 , Sep 2, 2008
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                ' shop-worn sentimentalism -- ' is indeed a wonderful phrase even if
                probably translator enhanced.

                Now what was he referring to ?






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Howard Rye
                Unfortunately I don¹t have Le Vrai Jazz in French so I can¹t tell you, but he approved this translation and his English was quite good enough to know what he
                Message 7 of 23 , Sep 2, 2008
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                  Unfortunately I don¹t have Le Vrai Jazz in French so I can¹t tell you, but
                  he approved this translation and his English was quite good enough to know
                  what he was saying.

                  But actually this is presented as a quotation from a Madeleine Gautier
                  article on Fats Waller in Jazz Hot for July/ August 1939, and it is a new
                  translation and not that by Walter Schaap published by Jazz Hot, which was
                  bi-lingual up to 1939.

                  The original French is: Sa façon de chanter les mélodies les plus tendres
                  d¹un air goguenard qui ridiculise le sentimentalisme de bazar sous lequel
                  s¹étiole le vrai coeur de monde. (His [Fats¹s] way of singing the tenderest
                  melodies in a jeering tone which ridicules the dime store sentimentalism
                  with which the true heart of the world is being weakened.....) This is my
                  translation not Schaap¹s. Whatever its defects, mine at least makes sense in
                  English, whereas I have no idea what Schaap thought he meant by ³the sort of
                  showy sentimentality that ridicules withering². I suspect that Œtawdry¹
                  would really be the best English translation of Œbazar¹ if I have understood
                  the French idiom correctly.

                  All of which confirms my original instinct that ³shop-worn sentimentalism²
                  is new-minted and pure Panassié!

                  I don¹t think it¹s anything more sinister than a rather felicitous
                  description of pre-rock pop music (i.e. crooners) in contrast to the way
                  Fats Waller and his disciples handled the same songs. That¹s the context
                  anyway.

                  on 02/09/2008 08:24, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ' shop-worn sentimentalism -- ' is indeed a wonderful phrase even if
                  > probably translator enhanced.
                  >
                  > Now what was he referring to ?
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                  howard@...
                  Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Patrice Champarou
                  ... From: Howard Rye The original French is: Sa façon de chanter les mélodies les plus tendres d¹un air goguenard qui ridiculise le sentimentalisme de
                  Message 8 of 23 , Sep 2, 2008
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Howard Rye"

                    The original French is: Sa façon de chanter les mélodies les plus tendres
                    d¹un air goguenard qui ridiculise le sentimentalisme de bazar sous lequel
                    s¹étiole le vrai coeur de monde. (His [Fats¹s] way of singing the tenderest
                    melodies in a jeering tone which ridicules the dime store sentimentalism
                    with which the true heart of the world is being weakened.....) This is my
                    translation not Schaap¹s. Whatever its defects, mine at least makes sense in
                    English, whereas I have no idea what Schaap thought he meant by ³the sort of
                    showy sentimentality that ridicules withering².

                    Native speaker (and born hair-splitter) confirms, maybe the shortcut looks
                    cute but assuming it means anything at all, I wonder how he managed to link
                    it to the rest of the sentence. If you just keep the main words, the
                    structure is definitely "Fat's way of singing/ridicules/sentimentalism", any
                    substitution woud be a confusion.

                    P.
                  • Patrice Champarou
                    ... or rather (his) tone/ridicules/sentimentalism (which boils down to the same thing, but I do not want to add more confusion to a verbless sentence)
                    Message 9 of 23 , Sep 2, 2008
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                      > "Fat's way of singing/ridicules/sentimentalism"
                      or rather "(his) tone/ridicules/sentimentalism" (which boils down to the
                      same thing, but I do not want to add more confusion to a verbless sentence)
                    • Howard Rye
                      It¹s not verbless in the original, Patrice. I only translated the relevant clauses. It goes on and on with a long list of characteristics of Fats Waller¹s
                      Message 10 of 23 , Sep 2, 2008
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                        It¹s not verbless in the original, Patrice. I only translated the relevant
                        clauses. It goes on and on with a long list of characteristics of Fats
                        Waller¹s playing and eventually ends with ³tout cela se reflète dans son
                        jeu² (all this is reflected in his playing).


                        on 02/09/2008 23:27, Patrice Champarou at patrice.champarou@... wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >> > "Fat's way of singing/ridicules/sentimentalism"
                        > or rather "(his) tone/ridicules/sentimentalism" (which boils down to the
                        > same thing, but I do not want to add more confusion to a verbless sentence)
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                        howard@...
                        Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




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                      • Bob Mates
                        I certainly don t know French, but I do know that a strong point of Fats s sing was to take the inane, overly-sentimental lyrics to a song, and, by over-doing
                        Message 11 of 23 , Sep 2, 2008
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                          I certainly don't know French, but I do know that a strong point
                          of Fats's sing was to take the inane, overly-sentimental lyrics
                          to a song, and, by over-doing them, satirize them. You laughed,
                          both at his vocal antics, and at the lyrics, because they were
                          made to sound more ridiculous, as he made fun of them. Bob
                        • David Brown
                          I love Fats but he demeaned the great songs along with the dross. Compare with, for instance, Billie who enhanced the dross as well as the great songs. Or with
                          Message 12 of 23 , Sep 3, 2008
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                            I love Fats but he demeaned the great songs along with the dross. Compare
                            with, for instance, Billie who enhanced the dross as well as the great
                            songs. Or with Louis who delivered the utmost dross with such sincerity you
                            believe it -- almost.

                            I think Waller's legacy would be even greater had he respected more both his
                            material and his own ability to transcend it.

                            Dave



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                          • Bob Mates
                            It just goes to prove that, more than any other form of music, jazz is an outgrowth of the performer s personality. Billie s songs were full of emotion,
                            Message 13 of 23 , Sep 3, 2008
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                              It just goes to prove that, more than any other form of music,
                              jazz is an outgrowth of the performer's personality. Billie's
                              songs were full of emotion, because her whole life was that way.
                              Her love songs were kind of her cry for love. Louis loved the
                              schmultzy stuff; making you believe it was part of the
                              performance. From what I've read about Fats, he didn't really
                              take any music very seriously, except church music and classical
                              music. Everything else was fair game. Some say he took away
                              from his ability, but I don't know. I think he pulled you in
                              with the humor, and then, when you were hooked, made you realize
                              what a truly great performer and musician he was. Remember: he
                              wasn't playing for the purists, but for the public. I had a lot
                              of Fats stuff on vinyl, but it's back in Pittsburgh. Someday, I
                              hope to get it up here, to Grand Rapids. Take care, everyone.
                              Bob
                            • Tommer
                              ... Interesting reading. I do believe that being funny is not a choice anyone can make, it is a gift, and I also believe Fats Waller wanted to make other
                              Message 14 of 23 , Sep 4, 2008
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                                --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Bob Mates <bluesbob@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi, Dave: You have a good point: perhaps, Fats was a victim of
                                > his own persona; had to live up to his image. When that happens,
                                > you try to be funny. Of course, when you try, you usually
                                > aren't.
                                > This whole area of discussion about artists, trapped by their
                                > public persona, is an interesting one. Nadine Kohodas, in her
                                > biography of Dinah Washington, says that, in her later years,
                                > (seems funny to write that phrase, since Dinah died at age 38),
                                > she tried to live up to her nickname, "the queen". It changed
                                > her personality, and it made her spend so much money, that when
                                > she died, she was deep in debt. As for Fats, I've read that, by
                                > the end of his life, he was getting tired of the grind of
                                > touring. Perhaps, if he'd lived, he would have devoted more time
                                > to writing Broadway shows, which he really enjoyed. Perhaps,
                                > too, as the musical tastes had changed, he wouldn't have been
                                > expected to be funny all of the time, and you would have heard a
                                > lot of different stuff.

                                Interesting reading. I do believe that being funny is not a choice
                                anyone can make, it is a gift, and I also believe Fats Waller wanted
                                to make other people happy, and so was his music. IMO Fats Waller
                                wanted to be grouped with artists like James Johnson and Art Tatum
                                and not Teddy Wilson, but many would place him there, only when
                                seriously thinking about him the connection to the first group is
                                more understood. Pannasie and Schuller both had winding ways to deal
                                with this situation, I might later try to excerpt but the reason I
                                wanted to reply is because an article by John S. Wilson
                                titled 'Thomas "Fats" Waller':
                                <<<<begin excerpt:
                                Both Fats Waller and his principal tutor, James P. Johnson, lived
                                lives of aching frustrations. Johnson ached openly because he could
                                find no audience for his serious compositions, but Waller's desire to
                                find acceptance as a serious musician was burried under a heavy
                                coating of pervasive geniality.

                                ....

                                Gene Sedric, the saxophonist and clarinettist in Fats's little band
                                from 1938 to 1943, remembers times when Waller was so full of his
                                feeling for serious music that he couldn't help playing, even in a
                                nightclub, with all the musicality of which he was capable. But this
                                wasn't the Fats that the customers had paid to hear. 'people in the
                                audience would think he was lying down', Sedric says.b 'They'd
                                yell, "Come on Fats!". He'd take a swig of gin or something and say
                                resignedly,"Aw right, here it is"'
                                <<<<<<<<end excerpt

                                The article certainly leaves space for imagination, but still it
                                seems in the right spirit.

                                There are more details on the article which is too long to quote, for
                                instance about Fats attitude at the organ differently from the piano.
                                I have this article on "Reading Jazz"/ selected writings of several
                                writers edited by Robert Gotllieb and it is written "Also from
                                Shapiro and Hentoff's The Jazz Makers"

                                Tommer
                              • Bob Mates
                                Well, it just goes back to what I said before. Obviously, Fats would have wanted to play serious music, but that s not what the public wanted, and, after
                                Message 15 of 23 , Sep 5, 2008
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                                  Well, it just goes back to what I said before. Obviously, Fats
                                  would have wanted to play "serious" music, but that's not what
                                  the public wanted, and, after all they're the ones who paid him.
                                  One could even bring racism into the discussion, because many
                                  people figured that black folks were supposed to be happy, happy,
                                  happy. By the way, while briefly on the subject of racism, it's
                                  interesting and very sad to note that many of the jazz clubs, who
                                  regularly hired black jazz musicians, wouldn't allow them to
                                  patronize with the white customers. Apparently, George Brunies,
                                  the trombonist, was an absolute out-and-out racist. I wonder
                                  where he thought the music he loved to play came from. Back to
                                  Fats: Fats's organ playing was much more serious than was a lot
                                  of his piano playing. I think "Jitterbug Waltz" was ahead of its
                                  time. Of course, if it's serious playing you're looking for,
                                  listen to "London Suite".
                                  Just briefly, it occurs to me that, if you believe the 1890 birth
                                  date for Jelly Roll, you're going to have to scramble and come up
                                  with a lot of new dates for his compositions.
                                  Sorry to make a long post like this. Take care, everyone. Bob
                                • Tommer
                                  ... Louis Armstrong was surfacing always happy, smiling, laughing, and also, Louis didn t care to abandon hot music and become sweeter with the times going by.
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Sep 6, 2008
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                                    --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Bob Mates <bluesbob@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > One could even bring racism into the discussion, because many
                                    > people figured that black folks were supposed to be happy, happy,
                                    > happy. By the way, while briefly on the subject of racism, it's
                                    > interesting and very sad to note that many of the jazz clubs, who
                                    > regularly hired black jazz musicians, wouldn't allow them to
                                    > patronize with the white customers.

                                    Louis Armstrong was surfacing always happy, smiling, laughing, and
                                    also, Louis didn't care to abandon hot music and become sweeter with
                                    the times going by. But Louis Armstrong will forever be a great
                                    musician. Was Fats Waller was influenced by Armstrong's charisma,
                                    (and not just the singing style)?

                                    Bob, what does it mean to patronize with the white customers?

                                    I also wonder whether there were "uncle tom" accusations against Fats
                                    Waller. There were such at Louis Armstrong.
                                    Tommer
                                  • Bob Mates
                                    It meant that many clubs wouldn t let their black musicians sit and have a drink with the white customers. They weren t allowed to mix with the customers at
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Sep 6, 2008
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                                      It meant that many clubs wouldn't let their black musicians sit
                                      and have a drink with the white customers. They weren't allowed
                                      to mix with the customers at all. I'm not aware of any "uncle
                                      tom" accusations against Fats. Those charges were levelled again
                                      Louis Armstrong, because he wouldn't participate in civil rights
                                      demonstrations. This was long after Fats was dead. Bob
                                    • Tommer
                                      ... Bob, sure the movement of the 1950 s that was the beginning of black panthers and other movements like that that were using uncle tomming as a measure of
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Sep 7, 2008
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                                        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Bob Mates <bluesbob@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > It meant that many clubs wouldn't let their black musicians sit
                                        > and have a drink with the white customers. They weren't allowed
                                        > to mix with the customers at all. I'm not aware of any "uncle
                                        > tom" accusations against Fats. Those charges were levelled again
                                        > Louis Armstrong, because he wouldn't participate in civil rights
                                        > demonstrations. This was long after Fats was dead. Bob
                                        >

                                        Bob, sure the movement of the 1950's that was the beginning of black
                                        panthers and other movements like that that were using "uncle
                                        tomming" as a measure of negative contribution to their causes which
                                        they thought to be identical with African Americans causes, were
                                        after Fats was long gone, however, on the historical level I was
                                        wondering what historically and officially was the movement opinion
                                        about Fats, hopefully someone has an answer.
                                        Tommer
                                      • Bob Mates
                                        My understanding has always been that Fats was just as popular with blacks as he was with whites, while he was alive. He was universally loved. The one thing
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Sep 7, 2008
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                                          My understanding has always been that Fats was just as popular
                                          with blacks as he was with whites, while he was alive. He was
                                          universally loved.
                                          The one thing that's important to know is that people's views of
                                          music can change, depending upon your situation. For instance,
                                          many black people rejected the blues as "slavery music". It
                                          didn't jibe with the new image African-Americans wanted to
                                          convey. Let me give you a more personal example. I'm a blind
                                          person. Now, I love Ray Charles. I think he was a great
                                          performer. However, many blind people go out of their way to say
                                          that they don't like Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder or Jose
                                          Feliciano. It has to do with the fact that many people will say
                                          to you, "so, I guess that, being blind, you really dig Stevie
                                          Wonder, huh?". So, you either say that you can't stand the guy,
                                          or you go into this thing about how you do like him, but his
                                          blindness has nothing to do with it.
                                          In Fats's case, as times changed from might have changed the way
                                          they perceived his music. But, as I said, my understanding is
                                          that he was extremely popular while he was alive. Bob
                                        • Robert Greenwood
                                          ... black ... which ... Leaving aside the satirical possibilities (which greatly cheer me) of Bobby Seale or Huey P. Newton issuing an official edict on Fats
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Sep 8, 2008
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                                            --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Tommer" <tommersl@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Bob, sure the movement of the 1950's that was the beginning of
                                            black
                                            > panthers and other movements like that that were using "uncle
                                            > tomming" as a measure of negative contribution to their causes
                                            which
                                            > they thought to be identical with African Americans causes, were
                                            > after Fats was long gone, however, on the historical level I was
                                            > wondering what historically and officially was the movement opinion
                                            > about Fats, hopefully someone has an answer.
                                            > Tommer
                                            >

                                            Leaving aside the satirical possibilities (which greatly cheer me) of
                                            Bobby Seale or Huey P. Newton issuing an "official" edict on Fats
                                            Waller, the Panthers, although they did some good work, are not noted
                                            for their contribution to jazz criticism. Someone will correct me if
                                            I am wrong. I suspect they had more urgent matters to attend to and
                                            that the constituency they sought among sections of the black
                                            American working class were all listening to Motown anyway and
                                            couldn't care less about Fats.
                                            Robert Greenwood.
                                          • Gilber M. Erskine
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Sep 8, 2008
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                                              <<<Let me give you a more personal example. I'm a blind person. ---Bob Mates>>>

                                              You obviously must depend on someone reading these posts to you. How can you ever be sure that what that person is telling you is correct?
                                              ----------GILBERT M. ERSKINE

                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: Bob Mates
                                              To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 3:02 PM
                                              Subject: re: [RedHotJazz] Re: shopworn sentimentalism (was Bob Fuller musicians and recording)


                                              My understanding has always been that Fats was just as popular
                                              with blacks as he was with whites, while he was alive. He was
                                              universally loved.
                                              The one thing that's important to know is that people's views of
                                              music can change, depending upon your situation. For instance,
                                              many black people rejected the blues as "slavery music". It
                                              didn't jibe with the new image African-Americans wanted to
                                              convey. Let me give you a more personal example. I'm a blind
                                              person. Now, I love Ray Charles. I think he was a great
                                              performer. However, many blind people go out of their way to say
                                              that they don't like Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder or Jose
                                              Feliciano. It has to do with the fact that many people will say
                                              to you, "so, I guess that, being blind, you really dig Stevie
                                              Wonder, huh?". So, you either say that you can't stand the guy,
                                              or you go into this thing about how you do like him, but his
                                              blindness has nothing to do with it.
                                              In Fats's case, as times changed from might have changed the way
                                              they perceived his music. But, as I said, my understanding is
                                              that he was extremely popular while he was alive. Bob





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                                            • Bob Mates
                                              Actually, Gilbert, I have a computer, which reads the posts either in Braille or as speech. Therefore, the only one who can make a mistake is me! hahaha
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Sep 8, 2008
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                                                Actually, Gilbert, I have a computer, which reads the posts
                                                either in Braille or as speech. Therefore, the only one who can
                                                make a mistake is me! hahaha There's a lot of good stuff about
                                                jazz available, either in Braille, or from people scanning it.
                                                Bob
                                              • Gilber M. Erskine
                                                Thanks! ... From: Bob Mates To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: shopworn sentimentalism (was
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Sep 8, 2008
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                                                  Thanks!
                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: Bob Mates
                                                  To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 12:45 PM
                                                  Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: shopworn sentimentalism (was Bob Fuller musicians and recording)


                                                  Actually, Gilbert, I have a computer, which reads the posts
                                                  either in Braille or as speech. Therefore, the only one who can
                                                  make a mistake is me! hahaha There's a lot of good stuff about
                                                  jazz available, either in Braille, or from people scanning it.
                                                  Bob





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                                                  Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                                                  Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1659 - Release Date: 9/8/2008 7:01 AM


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