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Re: [RedHotJazz] mixed bands: Sonny Lee/Trumbauer/Creath

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  • yves francois
    Howard I was reading Chilton s Who s Who s In Jazz last night* when I came across this entry: LEE, Sonny Thomas Ball b: Huntsville Texas 26th August 1904
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 1, 2008
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      Howard
      I was reading Chilton's "Who's Who's In Jazz" last night* when I came across this entry:
      LEE, "Sonny" Thomas Ball b: Huntsville Texas 26th August 1904

      "Studied at Texas State Teacher's College ,worked with Peck Kelly in Texas. Continued studies in St Louis, worked for the "Scranton Sirens". Whilst with Trumbauer in St Louis (1925) did occasional work with Charlie Creath, including a recording session. With Gene Rodemich, Paul Specht, Harold Leonard and Vincent Lopez, before joining Isham Jones from 1933 to 1936." He also mentions Shaw, Berigan and Jimmy Dorsey (1938 to 1946).
      All well and good except for one thing. Did Chilton actually had a correspondence with this man, I know John Chilton did with many musicians of that era (at least one musician I knew told me as much), is there any way we know of? The Scranton Sirens, were not based in Pennsylvania for at least part of 1925, did they ever travel in Texas or St Louis? Did Goldkette (or Trumbauer) liked what they heard and raided Billy Lustig's band (like Goldkette did for the Dorsey's)?
      Only questions, no answers, unless we know of any written correspondence Chilton (or can we get a hold of him regarding this?) may of had with Lee (or perhaps I will ask Bob Koester if any of the older black St Louis musicians knew of this)

      All the best
      Yves Francois Smierciak

      PS I do my doubts as well, esp the Lee who plays quite well on the Teddy Grace session, either that or he was a very versatile musician

      * 1978 edition




      --- On Thu, 7/17/08, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
      From: Howard Rye <howard@...>
      Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] mixed bands: Allen/Lyman Lee/Creath
      To: "red hot jazz" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 8:41 AM











      I think the jury is still out on Sonny Lee and probably likely to stay out.



      I wrote Thomas Ball Lee (Scarnton Sirens ‹Vincent Lopez‹Isham Jones‹Artie

      Shaw‹Charlie Barnet‹ Bunny Berigan ‹Jimmy Dorsey) for Grove and concluded

      very provisionally that it was unlikely to be the same musician on the

      Creath sides. There is nothing aurally to associate the playing of the Sonny

      Lee on the Creath records with any of Thomas Ball Lee¹s other work. If there

      is in fact an African-American musician with the same monniker then it also

      raises the question of which Sonny Lee is to be heard on the 1939 Teddy

      Grace sides as he sounds like neither of the others!



      These are questions that could once easily have been answered by asking him

      (Thomas Ball Lee) but it seems that nobody bothered.

      It was certainly Thomas Ball Lee who played with Bix and Pee Wee in Tram's

      St Louis band.



      on 17/07/2008 13:29, yves francois at aprestitine@ yahoo.com wrote:



      >

      >

      >

      > Fredrik

      > I think you are talking about Sonny Lee, trombonist (was he the one who played

      > with Bix and Pee Wee in Tram's St Louis band?), he is on the session from

      > later 1925 ("Market Street Stomp" ). Has it been definite that it is the same

      > gentleman, If it is he, could it be that Charles Lawson was ill, so he sent

      > the trombonist from another band to take his place? Also, is this the same

      > trombonist who played with numerous swing bands in the 30's? ...
    • Albert Haim
      I do not know if the Scranton Sirens were in St. Louis or Texas in 1925. However, it is possible they were. Note that according to Rust s Dance Band disco, the
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 2, 2008
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        I do not know if the Scranton Sirens were in St. Louis or Texas in
        1925. However, it is possible they were. Note that according to Rust's
        Dance Band disco, the Scranton Sirens recorded two sides, "Why Should
        I Believe In You" and "Common Street Blues" in New Orleans around Jan
        24, 1925. Perhaps on the way to or from New Orleans, they were in
        Texas and/or St. Louis.

        "Why Should I Believe In You" is availalbe in
        http://www.redhotjazz.com/sirens.html

        Albert




        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, yves francois <aprestitine@...> wrote:
        >
        > Howard
        > I was reading Chilton's "Who's Who's In Jazz" last night* when I
        came across this entry:
        > LEE, "Sonny" Thomas Ball b: Huntsville Texas 26th August 1904
        >
        > "Studied at Texas State Teacher's College ,worked with Peck Kelly in
        Texas. Continued studies in St Louis, worked for the "Scranton
        Sirens". Whilst with Trumbauer in St Louis (1925) did occasional work
        with Charlie Creath, including a recording session. With Gene
        Rodemich, Paul Specht, Harold Leonard and Vincent Lopez, before
        joining Isham Jones from 1933 to 1936." He also mentions Shaw, Berigan
        and Jimmy Dorsey (1938 to 1946).
        > All well and good except for one thing. Did Chilton actually had
        a correspondence with this man, I know John Chilton did with many
        musicians of that era (at least one musician I knew told me as much),
        is there any way we know of? The Scranton Sirens, were not based in
        Pennsylvania for at least part of 1925, did they ever travel in Texas
        or St Louis? Did Goldkette (or Trumbauer) liked what they heard and
        raided Billy Lustig's band (like Goldkette did for the Dorsey's)?
        > Only questions, no answers, unless we know of any written
        correspondence Chilton (or can we get a hold of him regarding this?)
        may of had with Lee (or perhaps I will ask Bob Koester if any of the
        older black St Louis musicians knew of this)
        >
        > All the best
        > Yves Francois Smierciak
        >
        > PS I do my doubts as well, esp the Lee who plays quite well on the
        Teddy Grace session, either that or he was a very versatile musician
        >
        > * 1978 edition
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- On Thu, 7/17/08, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
        > From: Howard Rye <howard@...>
        > Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] mixed bands: Allen/Lyman Lee/Creath
        > To: "red hot jazz" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
        > Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 8:41 AM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > I think the jury is still out on Sonny Lee and probably
        likely to stay out.
        >
        >
        >
        > I wrote Thomas Ball Lee (Scarnton Sirens ‹Vincent Lopez‹Isham
        Jones‹Artie
        >
        > Shaw‹Charlie Barnet‹ Bunny Berigan ‹Jimmy Dorsey) for Grove
        and concluded
        >
        > very provisionally that it was unlikely to be the same musician on the
        >
        > Creath sides. There is nothing aurally to associate the playing of
        the Sonny
        >
        > Lee on the Creath records with any of Thomas Ball Lee¹s other work.
        If there
        >
        > is in fact an African-American musician with the same monniker then
        it also
        >
        > raises the question of which Sonny Lee is to be heard on the 1939 Teddy
        >
        > Grace sides as he sounds like neither of the others!
        >
        >
        >
        > These are questions that could once easily have been answered by
        asking him
        >
        > (Thomas Ball Lee) but it seems that nobody bothered.
        >
        > It was certainly Thomas Ball Lee who played with Bix and Pee Wee in
        Tram's
        >
        > St Louis band.
        >
        >
        >
        > on 17/07/2008 13:29, yves francois at aprestitine@ yahoo.com wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Fredrik
        >
        > > I think you are talking about Sonny Lee, trombonist (was he the
        one who played
        >
        > > with Bix and Pee Wee in Tram's St Louis band?), he is on the
        session from
        >
        > > later 1925 ("Market Street Stomp" ). Has it been definite that it
        is the same
        >
        > > gentleman, If it is he, could it be that Charles Lawson was ill,
        so he sent
        >
        > > the trombonist from another band to take his place? Also, is this
        the same
        >
        > > trombonist who played with numerous swing bands in the 30's? ...
        >
      • Dan Van Landingham
        I first heard Sonny Lee via a couple of sides by the Bunny Berigan Orchestra.He was a marvellous trombonist who joined Berigan by August,1937 and left circa
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 3, 2008
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          I first heard Sonny Lee via a couple of sides by the Bunny Berigan Orchestra.He was a marvellous trombonist who joined Berigan by August,1937 and left circa March,1938 while
          Berigan was playing at the Paradise Restaurant.He did work for Isham Jones,Frank Trum-
          bauer in Saint Louis with Bix in 1925 according to Sudhalter as well as Jimmy Dorsey.In
          fact,Lee went with Dorsey for pretty much the same reason Berigan altoists Joe Dixon and
          Mike Doty did:Berigan's band was starting to stall.I remember Lee for his solos on such B-
          erigan recordings as "The Prisoner's Song" as well as a wonderful solo on "Louisiana" wh-
          ich was his "swan song" with Berigan.Regarding The Scranton Sirens,it has been my imp-
          ression that Billy Lustig's Scranton Sirens were based out of Scranton,PA.I just finished
          reading Peter J. Levinson's biography on Tommy Dorsey and it seems to corroburate eve-
          rything I had ever read previously on the Sirens such as the liner notes from the Columbia
          boxed set "Thesaurus of Classic Jazz" forty years ago.The one thing I have never known
          about the Sirens was what record label they may have recorded for.To my knowledge,it
          was never mentioned by Sudhalter�or anyone else for that matter.If anyone can help me on
          that matter,I would appreciate it.

          --- On Sat, 8/2/08, Albert Haim <alberthaim@...> wrote:

          From: Albert Haim <alberthaim@...>
          Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: mixed bands: Sonny Lee/Trumbauer/Creath
          To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Saturday, August 2, 2008, 5:51 PM






          I do not know if the Scranton Sirens were in St. Louis or Texas in
          1925. However, it is possible they were. Note that according to Rust's
          Dance Band disco, the Scranton Sirens recorded two sides, "Why Should
          I Believe In You" and "Common Street Blues" in New Orleans around Jan
          24, 1925. Perhaps on the way to or from New Orleans, they were in
          Texas and/or St. Louis.

          "Why Should I Believe In You" is availalbe in
          http://www.redhotja zz.com/sirens. html

          Albert

          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogro ups.com, yves francois <aprestitine@ ...> wrote:
          >
          > Howard
          > I was reading Chilton's "Who's Who's In Jazz" last night* when I
          came across this entry:
          > LEE, "Sonny" Thomas Ball b: Huntsville Texas 26th August 1904
          >
          > "Studied at Texas State Teacher's College ,worked with Peck Kelly in
          Texas. Continued studies in St Louis, worked for the "Scranton
          Sirens". Whilst with Trumbauer in St Louis (1925) did occasional work
          with Charlie Creath, including a recording session. With Gene
          Rodemich, Paul Specht, Harold Leonard and Vincent Lopez, before
          joining Isham Jones from 1933 to 1936." He also mentions Shaw, Berigan
          and Jimmy Dorsey (1938 to 1946).
          > All well and good except for one thing. Did Chilton actually had
          a correspondence with this man, I know John Chilton did with many
          musicians of that era (at least one musician I knew told me as much),
          is there any way we know of? The Scranton Sirens, were not based in
          Pennsylvania for at least part of 1925, did they ever travel in Texas
          or St Louis? Did Goldkette (or Trumbauer) liked what they heard and
          raided Billy Lustig's band (like Goldkette did for the Dorsey's)?
          > Only questions, no answers, unless we know of any written
          correspondence Chilton (or can we get a hold of him regarding this?)
          may of had with Lee (or perhaps I will ask Bob Koester if any of the
          older black St Louis musicians knew of this)
          >
          > All the best
          > Yves Francois Smierciak
          >
          > PS I do my doubts as well, esp the Lee who plays quite well on the
          Teddy Grace session, either that or he was a very versatile musician
          >
          > * 1978 edition
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- On Thu, 7/17/08, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
          > From: Howard Rye <howard@...>
          > Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] mixed bands: Allen/Lyman Lee/Creath
          > To: "red hot jazz" <RedHotJazz@yahoogro ups.com>
          > Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 8:41 AM
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > I think the jury is still out on Sonny Lee and probably
          likely to stay out.
          >
          >
          >
          > I wrote Thomas Ball Lee (Scarnton Sirens ���Vincent Lopez���Isham
          Jones���Artie
          >
          > Shaw���Charlie Barnet��� Bunny Berigan ���Jimmy Dorsey) for Grove
          and concluded
          >
          > very provisionally that it was unlikely to be the same musician on the
          >
          > Creath sides. There is nothing aurally to associate the playing of
          the Sonny
          >
          > Lee on the Creath records with any of Thomas Ball Lee��s other work.
          If there
          >
          > is in fact an African-American musician with the same monniker then
          it also
          >
          > raises the question of which Sonny Lee is to be heard on the 1939 Teddy
          >
          > Grace sides as he sounds like neither of the others!
          >
          >
          >
          > These are questions that could once easily have been answered by
          asking him
          >
          > (Thomas Ball Lee) but it seems that nobody bothered.
          >
          > It was certainly Thomas Ball Lee who played with Bix and Pee Wee in
          Tram's
          >
          > St Louis band.
          >
          >
          >
          > on 17/07/2008 13:29, yves francois at aprestitine@ yahoo.com wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > Fredrik
          >
          > > I think you are talking about Sonny Lee, trombonist (was he the
          one who played
          >
          > > with Bix and Pee Wee in Tram's St Louis band?), he is on the
          session from
          >
          > > later 1925 ("Market Street Stomp" ). Has it been definite that it
          is the same
          >
          > > gentleman, If it is he, could it be that Charles Lawson was ill,
          so he sent
          >
          > > the trombonist from another band to take his place? Also, is this
          the same
          >
          > > trombonist who played with numerous swing bands in the 30's? ...
          >


















          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Albert Haim
          The recordings by the Scranton Sirens of Why Should I Believe In You and Common Street Blues in New Orleans from Jan 24, 1925, were issued as OKeh 40297
          Message 4 of 5 , Aug 4, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            The recordings by the Scranton Sirens of "Why Should I Believe In You"
            and "Common Street Blues" in New Orleans from Jan 24, 1925, were
            issued as OKeh 40297 and 40329, respectively.

            Albert




            --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Dan Van Landingham
            <danvanlandingham@...> wrote:
            >
            The one thing I have never known about the Sirens was what record
            label they may have recorded for.To my knowledge,it was never
            mentioned by Sudhalter or anyone else for that matter.If anyone can
            help me on
            that matter,I would appreciate it.
          • Dan Van Landingham
            Thank you for the information regarding the Sirens.Are there any CDs of them such as RHJ s website in conjunction with Timeless Records. ... From: Albert Haim
            Message 5 of 5 , Aug 4, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Thank you for the information regarding the Sirens.Are there any CDs of them such as RHJ's website in conjunction with Timeless Records.

              --- On Mon, 8/4/08, Albert Haim <alberthaim@...> wrote:

              From: Albert Haim <alberthaim@...>
              Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: mixed bands: Sonny Lee/Trumbauer/Creath
              To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, August 4, 2008, 7:58 AM






              The recordings by the Scranton Sirens of "Why Should I Believe In You"
              and "Common Street Blues" in New Orleans from Jan 24, 1925, were
              issued as OKeh 40297 and 40329, respectively.

              Albert

              --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogro ups.com, Dan Van Landingham
              <danvanlandingham@ ...> wrote:
              >
              The one thing I have never known about the Sirens was what record
              label they may have recorded for.To my knowledge,it was never
              mentioned by Sudhalter or anyone else for that matter.If anyone can
              help me on
              that matter,I would appreciate it.


















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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