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RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Arville Harris, still "Red Hot Flo", also "One O Clock Blues"

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  • yves francois
    David (and all else re: Red Hot Flo), a new idea re the clarinet on both Red Hot Flo and One O Clock Blues I have been listening to NYC jazz records,
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 30, 2008
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      David (and all else re: Red Hot Flo), a new idea re the clarinet on both "Red Hot Flo" and "One O Clock Blues"

      I have been listening to NYC jazz records, particularly Clarence Williams this afternoon (while writing about biguines, my idea of a fun vacation, since I am back in town a day early, I guess), and thought of this, clarinet player Bennie Moten plays more like Johnny Dodds than anyone else in NYC in the 1926/8 era. Also, another fact is that LeRoy Tibbs has 3 reeds on his record, and only 2 are listed (can be tricky, since that rather awful violin is over the reeds, much like the Reb Spikes record I was mentioning earlier today). Could it be that the striking difference between the 2 clarinet solos from the Tibbs session is that the reed section is Bennie Moten, Arville Harris and Andrew Brown, and NOT just the latter two as usually listed. If anyone is interested, please play the following Clarence Williams sessions (all of whom have Bennie Moten on clarinet and on occasion, alto sax):


      5th May 1926 (Dixie Washboard Band) for Columbia (14141-D)

      May 1926 (as above) for Banner (1781)

      16 and 21 June 1926 (Blue Grass Foot Warmers) for Harmony (206H and 248H)

      also the famous 2 clarinet session for Columbia on 25 Jan 1927 under Williams' name (Columbia 14193-D) Moten and poss Whitted on fine clarinet duets, very great jazz ("Candy Lips" and "Gravier Street Blues")

      and another quartet session on 29 January 1927 for Okeh (8840)

      for ease sake, all these titles are on the Clarence Williams CD on Classics (#718)1926/7


      Compare Mr Moten's work to anything else by Arville Harris, and we may of taken Arville's name off the best solo he was reputed on (LeRoy Tibbs "One O Clock Blues"), for the 2 clarinet solos on the Tibbs session does not quite sound like the same man, any comments... and to think I started listening only because I could not believe someone would think that the clarinet player Bennie Moten was the same man as the piano player from Kansas City (!)... hope this helps
      Yves Francois Smierciak

      PS at least I did not have to listen to EVERY Cab Calloway 1931/35 to get to this point (I was getting quite discouraged by the clarinet on most of those Calloway records BTW)!



      --- On Tue, 7/22/08, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
      From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
      Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Arville Harris was 'Red Hot Flo'
      To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2008, 4:01 AM

      Many many thanks to Yves.



      'One O'clock' is indeed closest supposed Arville to 'Flo'.



      Just played through the complete Barrelhouse 5 QRSs from Jan 1929 which

      offer extremely exposed and -- presumably? -- undisputed Arville.



      Difficult to hear even a sniff of Dodds in this rather poor clarinet

      playing. His alto is better and maybe we can regard him as a saxophonist

      required to double clarinet with resultant technical problems.



      Also just played through the Cabs -- thanks Michael -- and the supposed

      Arville here is, at best, barely competent in this environment. But also no

      Dodds.



      'One O'clock ' and 'Flo' must then, if Arville, be considered aberrations

      from his normal non-Doddsian mediocrity.



      I quite like his clarinet (and is it possible to hear faint Dodds?) on the

      Wallers, certainly improvement on the QRSs, but his tenor is better.



      We are still left with how Arville -- if he -- absorbed enough Dodds to

      paraphrase seemingly at whim.



      Dave
    • yves francois
      I forgot this session: please check the clarinet on the March 8 1927 Brunswick 7000 Cushion Foot Stomp PDQ Blues  ...this man has the some strong instincts on
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 30, 2008
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        I forgot this session:
        please check the clarinet on the March 8 1927 Brunswick 7000
        Cushion Foot Stomp
        PDQ Blues
         ...this man has the some strong instincts on clarinet, very much like RHF and OOCB, indeed, excellent ,some of the best clarinet in the Dodds style to ever walk on a NYC recording studio in the middle 20's, and it's only a few weeks before "Red Hot Flo". He has some of the same dynamic sweeps that Dodds have, listen and see what you think.
        BTW, the clarinet on this session is also listed as being on Columbia 14239 ("Dixie Washboard Band") from a couple of days later, the man listed on both sessions is Carmelo Jejo (or Jari). I cannot believe that I have been looking for them, and here are 2 quite good Doddsian clarinets on a variety of 1926/7 Williams records, all I know is that I am penciling on my ancient Rust that Arville Harris probably does not solo on ":One O Clock Blues" ... OK I wondering what everyone thinks about these clarinet players (now I have to see if Carmelo or Bennie ever played with LeRoy Tibbs, no easy task, but I'll try my best here)...
        Yves

        --- On Wed, 7/30/08, yves francois <aprestitine@...> wrote:
        From: yves francois <aprestitine@...>
        Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Arville Harris, still "Red Hot Flo", also "One O Clock Blues"
        To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, July 30, 2008, 4:47 PM











        David (and all else re: Red Hot Flo), a new idea re the clarinet on both "Red Hot Flo" and "One O Clock Blues"



        I have been listening to NYC jazz records, particularly Clarence Williams this afternoon (while writing about biguines, my idea of a fun vacation, since I am back in town a day early, I guess), and thought of this, clarinet player Bennie Moten plays more like Johnny Dodds than anyone else in NYC in the 1926/8 era. Also, another fact is that LeRoy Tibbs has 3 reeds on his record, and only 2 are listed (can be tricky, since that rather awful violin is over the reeds, much like the Reb Spikes record I was mentioning earlier today). Could it be that the striking difference between the 2 clarinet solos from the Tibbs session is that the reed section is Bennie Moten, Arville Harris and Andrew Brown, and NOT just the latter two as usually listed. If anyone is interested, please play the following Clarence Williams sessions (all of whom have Bennie Moten on clarinet and on occasion, alto sax):



        5th May 1926 (Dixie Washboard Band) for Columbia (14141-D)



        May 1926 (as above) for Banner (1781)



        16 and 21 June 1926 (Blue Grass Foot Warmers) for Harmony (206H and 248H)



        also the famous 2 clarinet session for Columbia on 25 Jan 1927 under Williams' name (Columbia 14193-D) Moten and poss Whitted on fine clarinet duets, very great jazz ("Candy Lips" and "Gravier Street Blues")



        and another quartet session on 29 January 1927 for Okeh (8840)



        for ease sake, all these titles are on the Clarence Williams CD on Classics (#718)1926/7



        Compare Mr Moten's work to anything else by Arville Harris, and we may of taken Arville's name off the best solo he was reputed on (LeRoy Tibbs "One O Clock Blues"), for the 2 clarinet solos on the Tibbs session does not quite sound like the same man, any comments... and to think I started listening only because I could not believe someone would think that the clarinet player Bennie Moten was the same man as the piano player from Kansas City (!)... hope this helps

        Yves Francois Smierciak



        PS at least I did not have to listen to EVERY Cab Calloway 1931/35 to get to this point (I was getting quite discouraged by the clarinet on most of those Calloway records BTW)!



        --- On Tue, 7/22/08, David Brown <johnhaleysims@ yahoo.co. uk> wrote:

        From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@ yahoo.co. uk>

        Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Arville Harris was 'Red Hot Flo'

        To: RedHotJazz@yahoogro ups.com

        Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2008, 4:01 AM



        Many many thanks to Yves.



        'One O'clock' is indeed closest supposed Arville to 'Flo'.



        Just played through the complete Barrelhouse 5 QRSs from Jan 1929 which



        offer extremely exposed and -- presumably? -- undisputed Arville.



        Difficult to hear even a sniff of Dodds in this rather poor clarinet



        playing. His alto is better and maybe we can regard him as a saxophonist



        required to double clarinet with resultant technical problems.



        Also just played through the Cabs -- thanks Michael -- and the supposed



        Arville here is, at best, barely competent in this environment. But also no



        Dodds.



        'One O'clock ' and 'Flo' must then, if Arville, be considered aberrations



        from his normal non-Doddsian mediocrity.



        I quite like his clarinet (and is it possible to hear faint Dodds?) on the



        Wallers, certainly improvement on the QRSs, but his tenor is better.



        We are still left with how Arville -- if he -- absorbed enough Dodds to



        paraphrase seemingly at whim.



        Dave





























        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • yves francois
        I forgot this session: please check the clarinet on the March 8 1927 Brunswick 7000 Cushion Foot Stomp PDQ Blues  ...this man has the some strong instincts on
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 30, 2008
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          I forgot this session:
          please check the clarinet on the March 8 1927 Brunswick 7000
          Cushion Foot Stomp
          PDQ Blues
           ...this man has the some strong instincts on clarinet, very much like RHF and OOCB, indeed, excellent ,some of the best clarinet in the Dodds style to ever walk on a NYC recording studio in the middle 20's, and it's only a few weeks before "Red Hot Flo". He has some of the same dynamic sweeps that Dodds have, listen and see what you think.
          BTW, the clarinet on this session is also listed as being on Columbia 14239 ("Dixie Washboard Band") from a couple of days later, the man listed on both sessions is Carmelo Jejo (or Jari). I cannot believe that I have been looking for them, and here are 2 quite good Doddsian clarinets on a variety of 1926/7 Williams records, all I know is that I am penciling on my ancient Rust that Arville Harris probably does not solo on ":One O Clock Blues" ... OK I wondering what everyone thinks about these clarinet players (now I have to see if Carmelo or Bennie ever played with LeRoy Tibbs, no easy task, but I'll try my best here)...
          Yves

          --- On Wed, 7/30/08, yves francois <aprestitine@...> wrote:










          David (and all else re: Red Hot Flo), a new idea re the clarinet on both "Red Hot Flo" and "One O Clock Blues"



          I have been listening to NYC jazz records, particularly Clarence Williams this afternoon (while writing about biguines, my idea of a fun vacation, since I am back in town a day early, I guess), and thought of this, clarinet player Bennie Moten plays more like Johnny Dodds than anyone else in NYC in the 1926/8 era. Also, another fact is that LeRoy Tibbs has 3 reeds on his record, and only 2 are listed (can be tricky, since that rather awful violin is over the reeds, much like the Reb Spikes record I was mentioning earlier today). Could it be that the striking difference between the 2 clarinet solos from the Tibbs session is that the reed section is Bennie Moten, Arville Harris and Andrew Brown, and NOT just the latter two as usually listed. If anyone is interested, please play the following Clarence Williams sessions (all of whom have Bennie Moten on clarinet and on occasion, alto sax):



          5th May 1926 (Dixie Washboard Band) for Columbia (14141-D)



          May 1926 (as above) for Banner (1781)



          16 and 21 June 1926 (Blue Grass Foot Warmers) for Harmony (206H and 248H)



          also the famous 2 clarinet session for Columbia on 25 Jan 1927 under Williams' name (Columbia 14193-D) Moten and poss Whitted on fine clarinet duets, very great jazz ("Candy Lips" and "Gravier Street Blues")



          and another quartet session on 29 January 1927 for Okeh (8840)



          for ease sake, all these titles are on the Clarence Williams CD on Classics (#718)1926/7



          Compare Mr Moten's work to anything else by Arville Harris, and we may of taken Arville's name off the best solo he was reputed on (LeRoy Tibbs "One O Clock Blues"), for the 2 clarinet solos on the Tibbs session does not quite sound like the same man, any comments... and to think I started listening only because I could not believe someone would think that the clarinet player Bennie Moten was the same man as the piano player from Kansas City (!)... hope this helps

          Yves Francois Smierciak



          PS at least I did not have to listen to EVERY Cab Calloway 1931/35 to get to this point (I was getting quite discouraged by the clarinet on most of those Calloway records BTW)!



          --- On Tue, 7/22/08, David Brown <johnhaleysims@ yahoo.co. uk> wrote:

          From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@ yahoo.co. uk>

          Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Arville Harris was 'Red Hot Flo'

          To: RedHotJazz@yahoogro ups.com

          Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2008, 4:01 AM



          Many many thanks to Yves.



          'One O'clock' is indeed closest supposed Arville to 'Flo'.



          Just played through the complete Barrelhouse 5 QRSs from Jan 1929 which



          offer extremely exposed and -- presumably? -- undisputed Arville.



          Difficult to hear even a sniff of Dodds in this rather poor clarinet



          playing. His alto is better and maybe we can regard him as a saxophonist



          required to double clarinet with resultant technical problems.



          Also just played through the Cabs -- thanks Michael -- and the supposed



          Arville here is, at best, barely competent in this environment. But also no



          Dodds.



          'One O'clock ' and 'Flo' must then, if Arville, be considered aberrations



          from his normal non-Doddsian mediocrity.



          I quite like his clarinet (and is it possible to hear faint Dodds?) on the



          Wallers, certainly improvement on the QRSs, but his tenor is better.



          We are still left with how Arville -- if he -- absorbed enough Dodds to



          paraphrase seemingly at whim.



          Dave





























          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David Brown
          Dutifully hit all the Whittet, Jejo, Moten etc sides suggested as relevant Flo but find nothing to equate. Moten is an interesting idea but I think there is
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 25, 2008
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            Dutifully hit all the Whittet, Jejo, Moten etc sides suggested as relevant
            'Flo' but find nothing to equate.

            Moten is an interesting idea but I think there is no cast iron example. His
            Chicago connection would make him a good candidate because the work on 'Flo'
            suggests personal contact with South Side. He was identified in the original
            edition of 'King Joe Oliver', by no less than Clarence himself, as the
            clarinet soloist on the August 1928 Clarence QRSs with Oliver and I wonder
            why this has apparently subsequently been discredited. I guess he was
            reportedly no longer in NYC as neither was he for the Tibbs.

            I agree that 'I Got Worry' is typical Arville but 'One O'clock' is not.
            However, the work on the latter suggests a high possibility it's the same
            man as on 'Flo' and as Arville is definitely on the Tibbs and was on
            Clarence sessions adjacent to 'Flo', he is still the most likely candidate.

            Dave




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Howard Rye
            I wasn¹t aware the identification of Benny Moten, whose name is now thought to be the equally confusing Benny Morton, had been discredited for the August 1928
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 26, 2008
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              I wasn¹t aware the identification of Benny Moten, whose name is now thought
              to be the equally confusing Benny Morton, had been discredited for the
              August 1928 QRS session. It is still accepted in Laurie Wright¹s revised
              Joe ŒKing¹ Oliver and I know of no reason to reject it. Moten/Morton had
              been a colleague of Ed Allen¹s in the Joe Jordan band.

              Remember there are two clarinettists on the QRS session. Benny Waters
              identified himself on Speakeasy.

              While I¹m here, it might be an idea to draw the attention of other fans of
              Benny Waters to a record they might miss. Frémeaux have reissued the
              incredibly rare Urania UJLP804 ŒYes! The Cigal Sings Again¹ by Al Lirvat &
              His Cigal¹s Band. It¹s incredibly rare because issued just before the label
              folded and apparently sold only at the club. (Some estimates of the number
              of surviving copies are in single figures.). The reissue CD is called ŒParis
              1955¹ and is Frémeaux FA5215. Because trombonist-leader Lirvat and the other
              reedman, Childebert Mourinet, were from Guadeloupe, it is getting promoted
              as Antillean, but it is jazz all the way, and Waters, who was a fixture at
              La Cigale, plays beyond even his normal form. I couldn¹t recommend it too
              strongly. The repertoire is surprisingly traditional.

              And no I don¹t know why ŒLa Cigale¹ became ŒCigal¹s¹ in the name of the
              band, but it even appears on a reproduced contemporary flyer for the club
              ³The House of The American Jazz in France², so was certainly intentional.


              on 26/08/2008 06:46, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

              >
              >
              >
              > Dutifully hit all the Whittet, Jejo, Moten etc sides suggested as relevant
              > 'Flo' but find nothing to equate.
              >
              > Moten is an interesting idea but I think there is no cast iron example. His
              > Chicago connection would make him a good candidate because the work on 'Flo'
              > suggests personal contact with South Side. He was identified in the original
              > edition of 'King Joe Oliver', by no less than Clarence himself, as the
              > clarinet soloist on the August 1928 Clarence QRSs with Oliver and I wonder
              > why this has apparently subsequently been discredited. I guess he was
              > reportedly no longer in NYC as neither was he for the Tibbs.
              >
              > I agree that 'I Got Worry' is typical Arville but 'One O'clock' is not.
              > However, the work on the latter suggests a high possibility it's the same
              > man as on 'Flo' and as Arville is definitely on the Tibbs and was on
              > Clarence sessions adjacent to 'Flo', he is still the most likely candidate.
              >
              > Dave
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
              howard@...
              Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • David Brown
              Hello Howard I assumed Moten/Morton discredited because the third reed appears -- alongside Arville and Waters -- as unknown in Rust 1969 whereas Rust 1961
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 27, 2008
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                Hello Howard

                I assumed Moten/Morton discredited because the third reed appears --
                alongside Arville and Waters -- as unknown in Rust 1969 whereas Rust 1961
                lists Moten.

                I was also influenced by your own recent post on Moten where you report he
                left NYC for Chicago in April 1927 and was on Coast with Curtis Mosby from
                June to August 1928. Of course, the pall bearer may have been yet another
                Moten/Morton and he may, breathless, have got back to NYC for the QRS
                session. Do we have any other reported connection with Chicago except the
                Powers funeral ?

                The Ed Allen connection is interesting and would add to case for Moten on
                'Flo' but, as the personnel for the Tibbs is from Allen, were Moten present
                Allen would surely have remembered.

                I think it possible that Clarence got his Bennies confused although it can
                be inferred that Moten is on at least one Clarence session and Rust has him
                as (?) alongside Whittet ( also ?) on Jazz Kings, 29 Jan 1927.

                I also think it possible that sundry Moten/Mortons have been,
                typographically or otherwise, conflated.

                Dave

                PS What we got on Whittet ?




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Bob Eagle
                Ben (1895-1955) hailed from North Carolina.  After army service (1918-1919) he moved by 1920 to New Jersey, where he worked with Charlie Johnson (including
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 27, 2008
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                  Ben (1895-1955) hailed from North Carolina.  After army service (1918-1919) he moved by 1920 to New Jersey, where he worked with Charlie Johnson (including backing Monette Moore as a Johnson sideman in 1927 and 1928).  By 1930 he was at New York.
                   
                  Anything's possible, but he seems to have been within Charlie Johnson's ambit in 1927-8, rather than that of Clarence Williams.  Admittedly the same comments seem to apply to Benny Carter and Ben Waters.
                   
                  Bob

                  --- On Wed, 27/8/08, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:

                  From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
                  Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Bennies Moten & Waters (was Re: Arville Harris, etc.)
                  To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                  Received: Wednesday, 27 August, 2008, 4:06 PM






                  Hello Howard

                  I assumed Moten/Morton discredited because the third reed appears --
                  alongside Arville and Waters -- as unknown in Rust 1969 whereas Rust 1961
                  lists Moten.

                  I was also influenced by your own recent post on Moten where you report he
                  left NYC for Chicago in April 1927 and was on Coast with Curtis Mosby from
                  June to August 1928. Of course, the pall bearer may have been yet another
                  Moten/Morton and he may, breathless, have got back to NYC for the QRS
                  session. Do we have any other reported connection with Chicago except the
                  Powers funeral ?

                  The Ed Allen connection is interesting and would add to case for Moten on
                  'Flo' but, as the personnel for the Tibbs is from Allen, were Moten present
                  Allen would surely have remembered.

                  I think it possible that Clarence got his Bennies confused although it can
                  be inferred that Moten is on at least one Clarence session and Rust has him
                  as (?) alongside Whittet ( also ?) on Jazz Kings, 29 Jan 1927.

                  I also think it possible that sundry Moten/Mortons have been,
                  typographically or otherwise, conflated.

                  Dave

                  PS What we got on Whittet ?

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
















                  Win a MacBook Air or iPod touch with Yahoo!7. http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Robert Greenwood
                  ... fans of ... Lirvat & ... the label ... number ... called ŒParis ... My copy arrived yesterday. An interesting session. As you might expect with a band
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 28, 2008
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                    --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > While I¹m here, it might be an idea to draw the attention of other
                    fans of
                    > Benny Waters to a record they might miss. Frémeaux have reissued the
                    > incredibly rare Urania UJLP804 ŒYes! The Cigal Sings Again¹ by Al
                    Lirvat &
                    > His Cigal¹s Band. It¹s incredibly rare because issued just before
                    the label
                    > folded and apparently sold only at the club. (Some estimates of the
                    number
                    > of surviving copies are in single figures.). The reissue CD is
                    called ŒParis
                    > 1955¹ and is Frémeaux FA5215.

                    My copy arrived yesterday. An interesting session. As you might
                    expect with a band playing such a residency it occasionally resorts
                    to R'n'B cliché but not oppressively so. Waters is on fine form
                    playing tenor on all but two tracks. The version of The Saints is
                    based on the arrangement recorded by Louis in 1936 (?). Recommended.
                    An added bonus is in the English translation of the sleevenote where
                    Wilhelm Furtwangler is described as "the famous German band leader."
                    Robert Greenwood
                  • Howard Rye
                    Er, yes, right, this does put a bit of a spanner in the works, or at least it does if we can trust the dates for the QRS session. It is not at all clear what
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 28, 2008
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                      Er, yes, right, this does put a bit of a spanner in the works, or at least
                      it does if we can trust the dates for the QRS session. It is not at all
                      clear what these estimates are based on, so the usual mixture of copyright
                      dates, estimated releases dates, known movements of those supposed to be on
                      them (spot the circularity here), etc.

                      We don¹t seem to know anything about the release dates except that they are
                      all in an October 1929 Supplement which isn¹t massively helpful.

                      Local 767 Los Angeles (colored) reported a Benny Morton of Local 208
                      (Chicago (colored)) depositing a transfer in the August 1928 International
                      Musician. This report will have been at least a month in arrear, possibly
                      longer. In November they reported his admission to full membership, so if
                      this is the reedman, Clarence¹s memory was pretty certainly at fault, but is
                      it?


                      on 27/08/2008 09:06, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hello Howard
                      >
                      > I assumed Moten/Morton discredited because the third reed appears --
                      > alongside Arville and Waters -- as unknown in Rust 1969 whereas Rust 1961
                      > lists Moten.
                      >
                      > I was also influenced by your own recent post on Moten where you report he
                      > left NYC for Chicago in April 1927 and was on Coast with Curtis Mosby from
                      > June to August 1928. Of course, the pall bearer may have been yet another
                      > Moten/Morton and he may, breathless, have got back to NYC for the QRS
                      > session. Do we have any other reported connection with Chicago except the
                      > Powers funeral ?
                      >


                      Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                      howard@...
                      Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • David Brown
                      Playing through the Clarence QRSs in search of Moten. The August 1928 session has two rather shaky clarinet duets and one solo on New Down Home Blues which
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 29, 2008
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                        Playing through the Clarence QRSs in search of Moten.

                        The August 1928 session has two rather shaky clarinet duets and one solo on 'New Down Home Blues' which sounds to me, despite claim in 'King Joe Oliver' that it is Moten, like Arville.

                        The next, November, session also sounds like typical Arville on 'Midnight Stomp'.

                        The second November session offers long clarinet solos of a different calibre on all three sides including two on 'Longshoreman's Blues'. This is very fine and fluent and complete clarinet playing and can only be Buster and not Moten as posited in 'King Joe Oliver'.

                        The December session has only one clarinet solo on 'Sister Kate' where the work is compatible with the Tibbs 'One O'clock' with shrill, somtimes Doddsian phrasing and intonation problems. All sources list Arville here.

                        The Jazz Kings 29 Jan 1927 sides -- with both Whittet and Moten as (?) in Rust -- have the clarinets almost throughout in approximate duet but nothing here comparable 'Flo'.

                        I have only 'Senegalese' of the Joe Jordans -- with reported 'Benny Motton' -- but the clarinet soloist here is rather staid and also not comparable 'Flo'.

                        I reckon a Bennie too far to interpret the Chicago Morton as Moten/Motton. Is he listed as reed player ?

                        Dave



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Howard Rye
                        Trusting Laurie Wright¹s transcriptions in Storyville 2002-3, because I don¹t have time to check the originals right now, Chicago man is named as a
                        Message 11 of 13 , Aug 29, 2008
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                          Trusting Laurie Wright¹s transcriptions in Storyville 2002-3, because I
                          don¹t have time to check the originals right now, Chicago man is named as a
                          clarinettist (formerly with Joe Jordan, now with the Café de Paris
                          orchestra, Chicago) in the Defender of 28 May 1927, and a saxophonist in
                          Curtis Mosby¹s Orchestra at the Lincoln Theatre, Los Angeles in the 9 June
                          1928 issue.

                          Keith Nichols¹s structure diagrams in the 1987 King Joe Oliver show
                          Moten/Morton on alto sax throughout the August 1928 session. Except (1) all
                          three saxes switch to clarinet at the end of Long, Deep And Wide, Waters
                          then switching to tenor for his solo and break and then back to clarinet for
                          the final chorus; (2) all three saxes switch to clarinet for the clarinet
                          trio on Speakeasy.
                          As to the end of New Down Home Blues, he writes ³The 2-bar unison passage
                          could be played by either two altos or alto/tenor and is followed
                          immediately by the clarinet solo. This is shown here as being by the second
                          alto player (i.e. Moten), but could have been played by the tenor (i.e.
                          Waters). Whoever it is immediately changes back to sax.²

                          It is not clear to me, either from what he writes or the structure diagram
                          itself, why he thinks it cannot be the first alto (i.e. Harris) but plainly
                          he does think it cannot.

                          He gives Harris as the soloist on Midnight Stomp, and Bailey on the second
                          session. For Sister Kate he gives Harris as the soloist with ³ad-lib acc,²
                          by Waters on clarinet. He also lists Harris as the clarinet soloist on Do It
                          Baby.



                          on 29/08/2008 09:02, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Playing through the Clarence QRSs in search of Moten.
                          >
                          > The August 1928 session has two rather shaky clarinet duets and one solo on
                          > 'New Down Home Blues' which sounds to me, despite claim in 'King Joe Oliver'
                          > that it is Moten, like Arville.
                          >
                          > The next, November, session also sounds like typical Arville on 'Midnight
                          > Stomp'.
                          >
                          > The second November session offers long clarinet solos of a different calibre
                          > on all three sides including two on 'Longshoreman's Blues'. This is very fine
                          > and fluent and complete clarinet playing and can only be Buster and not Moten
                          > as posited in 'King Joe Oliver'.
                          >
                          > The December session has only one clarinet solo on 'Sister Kate' where the
                          > work is compatible with the Tibbs 'One O'clock' with shrill, somtimes
                          > Doddsian phrasing and intonation problems. All sources list Arville here.
                          >
                          > The Jazz Kings 29 Jan 1927 sides -- with both Whittet and Moten as (?) in
                          > Rust -- have the clarinets almost throughout in approximate duet but nothing
                          > here comparable 'Flo'.
                          >
                          > I have only 'Senegalese' of the Joe Jordans -- with reported 'Benny Motton'
                          > -- but the clarinet soloist here is rather staid and also not comparable
                          > 'Flo'.
                          >
                          > I reckon a Bennie too far to interpret the Chicago Morton as Moten/Motton. Is
                          > he listed as reed player ?
                          >
                          > Dave
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                          howard@...
                          Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • yves francois
                          Howard Then, it is possible that Moten played on the first QRS session, (could be he came back to NYC after leaving Chicago, before going to LA, this is
                          Message 12 of 13 , Aug 29, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Howard
                            Then, it is possible that Moten played on the first QRS session, (could be he came back to NYC after leaving Chicago, before going to LA, this is possible, and why would he not call Williams for gigs would be just the type of thing a musician would do)that is interesting, Williams sessions never cease to amaze me, he always got great results from such interchangeable ensembles, and always had the stamp of his work. I am referring to his leaving for Chicago on an earlier post, but maybe before going to LA he may of stopped back to see what gigs were going on in NYC, who knows? One other possibility, what about Ben Whitted (I will check the 1934 waller session as i have posted a few minutes ago this weekend), maybe Williams ,Taylor et all got all the Ben's confused.
                            All the best and, as always, thanks for the great information
                            Yves Francois Smierciak


                            --- On Fri, 8/29/08, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
                            From: Howard Rye <howard@...>
                            Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Bennies Moten & Waters (was Re: Arville Harris, etc.)
                            To: "red hot jazz" <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                            Date: Friday, August 29, 2008, 5:59 AM

                            Trusting Laurie Wright¹s transcriptions in Storyville 2002-3, because I

                            don¹t have time to check the originals right now, Chicago man is named as a

                            clarinettist (formerly with Joe Jordan, now with the Café de Paris

                            orchestra, Chicago) in the Defender of 28 May 1927, and a saxophonist in

                            Curtis Mosby¹s Orchestra at the Lincoln Theatre, Los Angeles in the 9 June

                            1928 issue.



                            Keith Nichols¹s structure diagrams in the 1987 King Joe Oliver show

                            Moten/Morton on alto sax throughout the August 1928 session. Except (1) all

                            three saxes switch to clarinet at the end of Long, Deep And Wide, Waters

                            then switching to tenor for his solo and break and then back to clarinet for

                            the final chorus; (2) all three saxes switch to clarinet for the clarinet

                            trio on Speakeasy.

                            As to the end of New Down Home Blues, he writes ³The 2-bar unison passage

                            could be played by either two altos or alto/tenor and is followed

                            immediately by the clarinet solo. This is shown here as being by the second

                            alto player (i.e. Moten), but could have been played by the tenor (i.e.

                            Waters). Whoever it is immediately changes back to sax.²



                            It is not clear to me, either from what he writes or the structure diagram

                            itself, why he thinks it cannot be the first alto (i.e. Harris) but plainly

                            he does think it cannot.



                            He gives Harris as the soloist on Midnight Stomp, and Bailey on the second

                            session. For Sister Kate he gives Harris as the soloist with ³ad-lib acc,²

                            by Waters on clarinet. He also lists Harris as the clarinet soloist on Do It

                            Baby.



                            on 29/08/2008 09:02, David Brown at johnhaleysims@ yahoo.co. uk wrote:



                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > Playing through the Clarence QRSs in search of Moten.

                            >

                            > The August 1928 session has two rather shaky clarinet duets and one solo on

                            > 'New Down Home Blues' which sounds to me, despite claim in 'King Joe Oliver'

                            > that it is Moten, like Arville.

                            >

                            > The next, November, session also sounds like typical Arville on 'Midnight

                            > Stomp'.

                            >

                            > The second November session offers long clarinet solos of a different calibre

                            > on all three sides including two on 'Longshoreman' s Blues'. This is very fine

                            > and fluent and complete clarinet playing and can only be Buster and not Moten

                            > as posited in 'King Joe Oliver'.

                            >

                            > The December session has only one clarinet solo on 'Sister Kate' where the

                            > work is compatible with the Tibbs 'One O'clock' with shrill, somtimes

                            > Doddsian phrasing and intonation problems. All sources list Arville here.

                            >

                            > The Jazz Kings 29 Jan 1927 sides -- with both Whittet and Moten as (?) in

                            > Rust -- have the clarinets almost throughout in approximate duet but nothing

                            > here comparable 'Flo'.

                            >

                            > I have only 'Senegalese' of the Joe Jordans -- with reported 'Benny Motton'

                            > -- but the clarinet soloist here is rather staid and also not comparable

                            > 'Flo'.

                            >

                            > I reckon a Bennie too far to interpret the Chicago Morton as Moten/Motton. Is

                            > he listed as reed player ?

                            >

                            > Dave

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            >

                            >

                            >



                            Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB

                            howard@coppermill. demon.co. uk

                            Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • David Brown
                            The Nichols analysis of New Down Home Blues seems only to prove the clarinet solo could be any of the three reedmen. The only placement of Moten/Morton here
                            Message 13 of 13 , Aug 30, 2008
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                              The Nichols analysis of 'New Down Home Blues' seems only to prove the
                              clarinet solo could be any of the three reedmen.

                              The only placement of Moten/Morton here is from Clarence -- not negligible I
                              agree. Do we now read Moten as a misspelling of Clarence's Morton ? And from
                              where do we get the Motton variant ? Surely extremely unusual for a musician
                              to move so readily and so quickly between the major jazz centres of NYC,
                              Chicago and W.Coast ? Union problems at least ? Which speaks for a
                              conflated Moten/Morton.

                              I have found in 1st ed. 'King Joe Oliver' a report that Bill Russell, no
                              less, examined Clarence's files and noted that Harvey Boone appears
                              somewhere on the QRSs. He could therefore be the third reedman doubling
                              clt/alt on the first session.

                              Going through the Hendersons I also cite the session of 27 Apr 1927 as
                              offering traces of Dodds style. The Sept 1928 QRSs contain very fluent and
                              fast clarinet work on 'St. Louis'. Both sessions in Rust as Arville. The
                              Oct 1928 session was originally claimed in 'Joe King Oliver' to also be
                              Moten but this was subsequently amended in Rust to (?)Whittet. It certainly
                              sounds like another, even less impressive, player than Arville and not like
                              'New Down Home Blues'.

                              The Bells I have not complete but hear what you mean Yves.

                              The Clarence clarinets seem to be a discographical mess and I could extend
                              to the actual playing. I agree about the joy of Clarence but it was, after
                              all, factory output and can vary disconcertingly even in one session. The
                              weakest point is usually the clarinet playing.

                              Dave




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