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King Oliver

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  • Bob Eagle
    The expectation would be that King Oliver s life would be well-known. However, his early life is largely a mystery, which is compounded by a lack of images
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 20, 2008
      The expectation would be that King Oliver's life would be well-known.

      However, his early life is largely a mystery, which is compounded by a lack of images that obviously relate to him.

      It is not until he has arrived in Chicago (by the 1920 census) that he is clearly referred to as a musician. In 1920, his wife was Stella and his daughter was Ruby (aged 13, suggesting a birth in 1906).

      In his 1918 draft card, Joseph Mack Oliver, laborer, born 1 November 1880, was shown as married to Estella Cousin, and they both resided at 2483 Madison, New Orleans.

      The marriage of Joseph Mack Oliver to Stella Cousin took place at New Orleans on 17 November 1903. At that time, Joseph was aged 23 and Stella was 19.

      They appear to be enumerated for the 1910 census as McOliver (Joseph Mack Oliver, get it?), although two sons and one daughter (not Ruby) are shown. Joseph is shown as a laborer.

      Obviously none of this jells with the usual detail given for King Oliver, that he was born on 11 May 1885, but there is no listing (apart possibly from the 1920 census) that accords with the usual information.

      It has been reported that his mother died in 1900 and that he was thereafter raised by his half-sister, Victoria Davis.

      An evocative listing from the 1900 census is for Jenie Jones, born in Florida in 1854, living in the 14th ward of New Orleans. Jenie's children included Fanny Davis (21), Adele Hodford (16) and Joseph Olliver (sic: aged 14 - month of birth shown as December 1885). The interesting thing about this is the conjunction of the family names Davis and Olliver, and that Fanny Davis is older than Joseph, and therefore could be expected to act as a surrogate mother for Joseph.

      It is possible that Oliver was simply missed from one or more censuses, but it seems unlikely that he would be missed from all except 1930.

      Alternatively, he could be Joseph Olivier (sic, shown as born May 1882) who was enumerated for the 1900 census in Iberia Parish, aged 18.

      Am I missing something? I've tried a number of different name combinations, to overcome spelling errors and such, but the above summary is the best I can do.

      Cheers
      Bob


      Start at the new Yahoo!7 for a better online experience. www.yahoo7.com.au
    • Howard Rye
      For what it¹s worth Larry Gushee believes that the 1900 Jones household is the King, though he reads Jessie Jones rather than Jenie. The legal beneficiary of
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 20, 2008
        For what it¹s worth Larry Gushee believes that the 1900 Jones household is
        the King, though he reads Jessie Jones rather than Jenie.

        The legal beneficiary of Oliver¹s estate was an adopted daughter named
        Bernardine (Mrs. Phinazee). When they married, Stella already had three
        children (two daughters and a son) who used the Oliver name as was common
        for stepchildren in those days (especially illegitimate ones as these
        presumably were). They are reported without names in the Savannah Tribune
        report of Oliver¹s death (not to hand). Bernardine is thought to be one of
        them and Ruby another.

        Surviving family members gave Oliver¹s birth date variously to early
        researchers as 19 December 1884 or 11 May 1885. There is a large literature
        on this which can be found through standard jazz bibliographies. Somewhere
        you could probably discover why the 11 May 1885 birth date has been so
        consistently opted for. I can tell you that it makes its appearance
        surprisingly late (Feather?). Walt Allen didn¹t know it in 1957.

        Writing in 1987 Laurie Wright concluded: ³Joseph was the youngest of [Jessie
        Jones¹s] surviving children. Elizabeth was the eldest sister and married
        Kay. Ulysses Kay, Bill Watkins, and Lillian Skinner are her children.
        Victoria (married Johnson), the second sister, had two daughters, Rosa Burke
        Graham and Gladys Araumburo. Fannie (probably née Davis and married Hall)
        was next and her children were Dan & Herb Swann and Jospeh Robertson. Other
        sisters are Adele (recalled by the family and named in the census), Rosa or
        Rosie or Bertha may be a nickname or one of the others.² This information
        was mostly obtained by Walt Allen from family members. I think we can at
        least take it that the 1900 census entry is correctly identified.


        on 20/07/2008 13:51, Bob Eagle at prof_hi_jinx@... wrote:

        >
        >
        >
        > The expectation would be that King Oliver's life would be well-known.
        >
        > However, his early life is largely a mystery, which is compounded by a lack of
        > images that obviously relate to him.
        >
        > It is not until he has arrived in Chicago (by the 1920 census) that he is
        > clearly referred to as a musician. In 1920, his wife was Stella and his
        > daughter was Ruby (aged 13, suggesting a birth in 1906).
        >
        > In his 1918 draft card, Joseph Mack Oliver, laborer, born 1 November 1880, was
        > shown as married to Estella Cousin, and they both resided at 2483 Madison, New
        > Orleans.
        >
        > The marriage of Joseph Mack Oliver to Stella Cousin took place at New Orleans
        > on 17 November 1903. At that time, Joseph was aged 23 and Stella was 19.
        >
        > They appear to be enumerated for the 1910 census as McOliver (Joseph Mack
        > Oliver, get it?), although two sons and one daughter (not Ruby) are shown.
        > Joseph is shown as a laborer.
        >
        > Obviously none of this jells with the usual detail given for King Oliver, that
        > he was born on 11 May 1885, but there is no listing (apart possibly from the
        > 1920 census) that accords with the usual information.
        >
        > It has been reported that his mother died in 1900 and that he was thereafter
        > raised by his half-sister, Victoria Davis.
        >
        > An evocative listing from the 1900 census is for Jenie Jones, born in Florida
        > in 1854, living in the 14th ward of New Orleans. Jenie's children included
        > Fanny Davis (21), Adele Hodford (16) and Joseph Olliver (sic: aged 14 - month
        > of birth shown as December 1885). The interesting thing about this is the
        > conjunction of the family names Davis and Olliver, and that Fanny Davis is
        > older than Joseph, and therefore could be expected to act as a surrogate
        > mother for Joseph.
        >
        > It is possible that Oliver was simply missed from one or more censuses, but it
        > seems unlikely that he would be missed from all except 1930.
        >
        > Alternatively, he could be Joseph Olivier (sic, shown as born May 1882) who
        > was enumerated for the 1900 census in Iberia Parish, aged 18.
        >
        > Am I missing something? I've tried a number of different name combinations,
        > to overcome spelling errors and such, but the above summary is the best I can
        > do.
        >
        > Cheers
        > Bob
        >
        > Start at the new Yahoo!7 for a better online experience. www.yahoo7.com.au
        >
        >


        Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
        howard@...
        Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Gilber M. Erskine
        If memory serves correctly, Don
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 20, 2008
          <<<Obviously none of this jells with the usual details given for King Oliver, that he was born 11 May 1885---Bob Eagle>>>

          If memory serves correctly, Don Marquis, writing on THE SECOND LINE some 30 years ago in response to questions I had raised regarding Oliver's age, said that in his research he had found a document that confirmed the 1885 date. I'm not clear on this, but it seemed to have something to do with a brief police arrest Oliver had had.
          ---------GILBERT M. ERSKINE

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Bob Eagle
          To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 8:51 AM
          Subject: [RedHotJazz] King Oliver


          The expectation would be that King Oliver's life would be well-known.

          However, his early life is largely a mystery, which is compounded by a lack of images that obviously relate to him.

          It is not until he has arrived in Chicago (by the 1920 census) that he is clearly referred to as a musician. In 1920, his wife was Stella and his daughter was Ruby (aged 13, suggesting a birth in 1906).

          In his 1918 draft card, Joseph Mack Oliver, laborer, born 1 November 1880, was shown as married to Estella Cousin, and they both resided at 2483 Madison, New Orleans.

          The marriage of Joseph Mack Oliver to Stella Cousin took place at New Orleans on 17 November 1903. At that time, Joseph was aged 23 and Stella was 19.

          They appear to be enumerated for the 1910 census as McOliver (Joseph Mack Oliver, get it?), although two sons and one daughter (not Ruby) are shown. Joseph is shown as a laborer.

          Obviously none of this jells with the usual detail given for King Oliver, that he was born on 11 May 1885, but there is no listing (apart possibly from the 1920 census) that accords with the usual information.

          It has been reported that his mother died in 1900 and that he was thereafter raised by his half-sister, Victoria Davis.

          An evocative listing from the 1900 census is for Jenie Jones, born in Florida in 1854, living in the 14th ward of New Orleans. Jenie's children included Fanny Davis (21), Adele Hodford (16) and Joseph Olliver (sic: aged 14 - month of birth shown as December 1885). The interesting thing about this is the conjunction of the family names Davis and Olliver, and that Fanny Davis is older than Joseph, and therefore could be expected to act as a surrogate mother for Joseph.

          It is possible that Oliver was simply missed from one or more censuses, but it seems unlikely that he would be missed from all except 1930.

          Alternatively, he could be Joseph Olivier (sic, shown as born May 1882) who was enumerated for the 1900 census in Iberia Parish, aged 18.

          Am I missing something? I've tried a number of different name combinations, to overcome spelling errors and such, but the above summary is the best I can do.

          Cheers
          Bob

          Start at the new Yahoo!7 for a better online experience. www.yahoo7.com.au



          No virus found in this incoming message.
          Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
          Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.2/1562 - Release Date: 7/19/2008 2:01 PM


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Albert Haim
          In the World War I Draft Registration page of the doctor jazz website, Peter Hanley provides a brief discussion of King Oliver s date of birth. Excellent
          Message 4 of 5 , Jul 20, 2008
            In the World War I Draft Registration page of the doctor jazz website,
            Peter Hanley provides a brief discussion of King Oliver's date of
            birth. Excellent images of Oliver's WWI Draft Registration card are
            provided.
            See http://www.doctorjazz.co.uk/draftcards2.html
            (scroll down about 3/4 of the page or use "oliver" in the "find in
            this page" function in your browser.)

            Albert



            --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Gilber M. Erskine" <gerskine@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > <<<Obviously none of this jells with the usual details given for
            King Oliver, that he was born 11 May 1885---Bob Eagle>>>
            >
            > If memory serves correctly, Don Marquis, writing on THE SECOND LINE
            some 30 years ago in response to questions I had raised regarding
            Oliver's age, said that in his research he had found a document that
            confirmed the 1885 date. I'm not clear on this, but it seemed to have
            something to do with a brief police arrest Oliver had had.
            > ---------GILBERT M. ERSKINE
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Bob Eagle
            > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 8:51 AM
            > Subject: [RedHotJazz] King Oliver
            >
            >
            > The expectation would be that King Oliver's life would be well-known.
            >
            > However, his early life is largely a mystery, which is compounded
            by a lack of images that obviously relate to him.
            >
            > It is not until he has arrived in Chicago (by the 1920 census)
            that he is clearly referred to as a musician. In 1920, his wife was
            Stella and his daughter was Ruby (aged 13, suggesting a birth in 1906).
            >
            > In his 1918 draft card, Joseph Mack Oliver, laborer, born 1
            November 1880, was shown as married to Estella Cousin, and they both
            resided at 2483 Madison, New Orleans.
            >
            > The marriage of Joseph Mack Oliver to Stella Cousin took place at
            New Orleans on 17 November 1903. At that time, Joseph was aged 23 and
            Stella was 19.
            >
            > They appear to be enumerated for the 1910 census as McOliver
            (Joseph Mack Oliver, get it?), although two sons and one daughter (not
            Ruby) are shown. Joseph is shown as a laborer.
            >
            > Obviously none of this jells with the usual detail given for King
            Oliver, that he was born on 11 May 1885, but there is no listing
            (apart possibly from the 1920 census) that accords with the usual
            information.
            >
            > It has been reported that his mother died in 1900 and that he was
            thereafter raised by his half-sister, Victoria Davis.
            >
            > An evocative listing from the 1900 census is for Jenie Jones, born
            in Florida in 1854, living in the 14th ward of New Orleans. Jenie's
            children included Fanny Davis (21), Adele Hodford (16) and Joseph
            Olliver (sic: aged 14 - month of birth shown as December 1885). The
            interesting thing about this is the conjunction of the family names
            Davis and Olliver, and that Fanny Davis is older than Joseph, and
            therefore could be expected to act as a surrogate mother for Joseph.
            >
            > It is possible that Oliver was simply missed from one or more
            censuses, but it seems unlikely that he would be missed from all
            except 1930.
            >
            > Alternatively, he could be Joseph Olivier (sic, shown as born May
            1882) who was enumerated for the 1900 census in Iberia Parish, aged 18.
            >
            > Am I missing something? I've tried a number of different name
            combinations, to overcome spelling errors and such, but the above
            summary is the best I can do.
            >
            > Cheers
            > Bob
            >
            > Start at the new Yahoo!7 for a better online experience.
            www.yahoo7.com.au
            >
            >
            >
            > No virus found in this incoming message.
            > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
            > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.2/1562 - Release Date:
            7/19/2008 2:01 PM
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Bob Eagle
            Thanks for this, and to Gilber and Howard.   Apparently I was fixated on New Orleans for the searches, so I missed the Chicago draft card, then continued with
            Message 5 of 5 , Jul 20, 2008
              Thanks for this, and to Gilber and Howard.
               
              Apparently I was fixated on New Orleans for the searches, so I missed the Chicago draft card, then continued with Stella Cousin because of a "Stella" being named in the 1920 census.  It all shows the value of just that bit of extra information, to keep you on the right track.
               
              Thanks again.
               
              Bob

              --- On Mon, 21/7/08, Albert Haim <alberthaim@...> wrote:

              From: Albert Haim <alberthaim@...>
              Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: King Oliver. WW I Draft Registration Card
              To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
              Received: Monday, 21 July, 2008, 5:43 AM






              In the World War I Draft Registration page of the doctor jazz website,
              Peter Hanley provides a brief discussion of King Oliver's date of
              birth. Excellent images of Oliver's WWI Draft Registration card are
              provided.
              See http://www.doctorja zz.co.uk/ draftcards2. html
              (scroll down about 3/4 of the page or use "oliver" in the "find in
              this page" function in your browser.)

              Albert

              --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogro ups.com, "Gilber M. Erskine" <gerskine@.. .>
              wrote:
              >
              > <<<Obviously none of this jells with the usual details given for
              King Oliver, that he was born 11 May 1885---Bob Eagle>>>
              >
              > If memory serves correctly, Don Marquis, writing on THE SECOND LINE
              some 30 years ago in response to questions I had raised regarding
              Oliver's age, said that in his research he had found a document that
              confirmed the 1885 date. I'm not clear on this, but it seemed to have
              something to do with a brief police arrest Oliver had had.
              > ---------GILBERT M. ERSKINE
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Bob Eagle
              > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogro ups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 8:51 AM
              > Subject: [RedHotJazz] King Oliver
              >
              >
              > The expectation would be that King Oliver's life would be well-known.
              >
              > However, his early life is largely a mystery, which is compounded
              by a lack of images that obviously relate to him.
              >
              > It is not until he has arrived in Chicago (by the 1920 census)
              that he is clearly referred to as a musician. In 1920, his wife was
              Stella and his daughter was Ruby (aged 13, suggesting a birth in 1906).
              >
              > In his 1918 draft card, Joseph Mack Oliver, laborer, born 1
              November 1880, was shown as married to Estella Cousin, and they both
              resided at 2483 Madison, New Orleans.
              >
              > The marriage of Joseph Mack Oliver to Stella Cousin took place at
              New Orleans on 17 November 1903. At that time, Joseph was aged 23 and
              Stella was 19.
              >
              > They appear to be enumerated for the 1910 census as McOliver
              (Joseph Mack Oliver, get it?), although two sons and one daughter (not
              Ruby) are shown. Joseph is shown as a laborer.
              >
              > Obviously none of this jells with the usual detail given for King
              Oliver, that he was born on 11 May 1885, but there is no listing
              (apart possibly from the 1920 census) that accords with the usual
              information.
              >
              > It has been reported that his mother died in 1900 and that he was
              thereafter raised by his half-sister, Victoria Davis.
              >
              > An evocative listing from the 1900 census is for Jenie Jones, born
              in Florida in 1854, living in the 14th ward of New Orleans. Jenie's
              children included Fanny Davis (21), Adele Hodford (16) and Joseph
              Olliver (sic: aged 14 - month of birth shown as December 1885). The
              interesting thing about this is the conjunction of the family names
              Davis and Olliver, and that Fanny Davis is older than Joseph, and
              therefore could be expected to act as a surrogate mother for Joseph.
              >
              > It is possible that Oliver was simply missed from one or more
              censuses, but it seems unlikely that he would be missed from all
              except 1930.
              >
              > Alternatively, he could be Joseph Olivier (sic, shown as born May
              1882) who was enumerated for the 1900 census in Iberia Parish, aged 18.
              >
              > Am I missing something? I've tried a number of different name
              combinations, to overcome spelling errors and such, but the above
              summary is the best I can do.
              >
              > Cheers
              > Bob
              >
              > Start at the new Yahoo!7 for a better online experience.
              www.yahoo7.com. au
              >
              >
              >
              > No virus found in this incoming message.
              > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg com
              > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.2/1562 - Release Date:
              7/19/2008 2:01 PM
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
















              Start at the new Yahoo!7 for a better online experience. www.yahoo7.com.au

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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