Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: NO Revival?

Expand Messages
  • robertgreenwood_54uk
    Bunk had been out of action for some time before his rediscovery. His reliability as a witness to the early days of jazz in New Orleans has been questioned
    Message 1 of 26 , Jun 29, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Bunk had been out of action for some time before his rediscovery. His
      reliability as a witness to the early days of jazz in New Orleans has
      been questioned over the years and Don Marquis, in his book about
      Bolden, disputes Bunk's own account of his birthdate being 1879 and
      argues persuasively that Bunk was probably born in 1889 or
      thereabouts and could not have played with Bolden. But poverty and
      ill-health (dental health, at least) created a hiatus in Bunk's
      musical career. For a musician, or for any artist, the source of
      their self-esteem and their very self-definition is in the practice
      of their art, and to be prevented from practising that art is, for
      them, sheer misery. So Bunk, seeing these researchers taking such an
      interest in him, seized the opportunity to get back into playing
      music again. He told them what they wanted to hear and, when it was
      suggested he could make records and start playing again, he was
      prepared to accept most of the compromises necessary to bring that
      about. I would suggest that Bunk's aim all along was to get to New
      York and enter the mainstream of musical activity up there. I suspect
      that he never really relished his role as the grand old man of jazz.
      Michael is absolutely right when he points out that Lewis and
      Robinson were not his sidemen of choice and that he preferred working
      with Garvin Bushell and Ed Cuffee. It's interesting that on the
      recordings he made in 1947 with Bushell & Cuffee we do not hear the
      complex ensemble work and passing of the lead that we hear on the
      AMs. The same can be said for the 1944 V-Discs he made in San
      Francisco with Floyd O'Brien & Wade Whaley. Max Harrison, one of the
      more perceptive critics on Bunk and on so much else in jazz, once
      said that the AMs show Bunk playing relatively simple themes in a
      complex way, while the 1947 sides show him playing more complex
      themes in a relatively straightforward fashion.
      We have little firm knowledge of what NO music was like in the
      thirties since no recordings were made in NO at that time. At least
      not of any of the resident musicians. All we have got to go on are
      the testimony of those musicians who were around at the time and some
      photographic evidence, as well as the handful of private recordings
      referred to by Michael. The Robichaux tracks made in 1933 in NY may
      give a clue, and so might the 1936 Don Albert sides. Any thoughts on
      that, anyone? There is a photograph taken of Bunk in the late
      twenties in a band with the ill-fated, and un-recorded, trumpeter
      Evan Thomas. Looking at the line-up, I suspect they sounded not
      unlike the territory bands. I have read that their repertoire
      included Stardust and You Rascal You.
      A note to the gentleman who initiated this thread with his enquiry
      about Bunk: You have stirred up a hornet's nest. There is no more
      controversial a figure in the whole of jazz than Bunk Johnson and no
      area more argued over than the so-called New Orleans revival.
    • David Brown
      Michael Interesting. Toad precludes much serious thought at the moment. N.O.music was functional. Dances, funerals, parades. Musicians played for the
      Message 2 of 26 , Jun 29, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Michael

        Interesting. Toad precludes much serious thought at the moment.

        N.O.music was functional. Dances, funerals, parades. Musicians played for
        the audience, for the moment. The idea of sitting round a mike to record for
        posterity would have been alien.The demands of 'the Man' would have added to
        the unreality. So this would really be a double constraint to a satisfactory
        performance and it's surpringing that so much of it is so good.

        The sublime Kid Thomas Valentine, despite the many latter years of
        Preservation Hall, Clubs and Concerts never could stand to play with
        'stuffed dummies' staring at him he wanted the people to get up and dance.

        No I don't know the Prof. either but I sure would like to.

        Can you help Howard ?

        Dave


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • robertgreenwood_54uk
        Dave is absolutely right. When Bunk and the band first played at the Stuyvesant Casino in New York in 1945 they thought that no-one liked them because no-one
        Message 3 of 26 , Jun 29, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Dave is absolutely right. When Bunk and the band first played at the
          Stuyvesant Casino in New York in 1945 they thought that no-one liked
          them because no-one from the audience got up to dance. This must have
          been the first time they had played for "jazz fans".
        • Howard Rye
          ... Eight titles recorded for Decca 3 July 1936 (two trumpets, trombone, clarinet, alto sax, piano, guitar accompanying Hull s gospel vocals) Only four issued
          Message 4 of 26 , Jun 29, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            on 29/6/05 10:22, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:

            > By the way, what are Professor Hull's Anthems mentioned by Howard Rye? I must
            > confess complete ignorance.

            Eight titles recorded for Decca 3 July 1936 (two trumpets, trombone,
            clarinet, alto sax, piano, guitar accompanying Hull's gospel vocals)

            Only four issued at the time (Decca 7108, 7128) but all eight can be heard
            on Document DOCD5326 Singin' The Gospel 1933-1936.

            As far as I know, nothing is actually known about their provenance, Decca's
            files being unavailable to researchers (but very likely uninformative
            anyway). At various times all the usual New Orleans suspects have been
            suggested for various roles. As far as I'm concerned, pending evidence,
            "unknown" will do just fine.

            In passing, evidence of a New Orleans variant of swing is not lacking. Quite
            apart from the Robichaux recordings (regarded by some as the first R & B
            recordings!) there are the private recordings by Kid Howard, Andy Anderson
            and Duke Derbigny which are currently on Prelude To the Revival, Vol. 1
            (American Music AMCD40).


            Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
            howard@...
            Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
          • robertgreenwood_54uk
            I have just phoned Red Lick and that particular Document CD is now out of the catalogue. Thanks, anyway, Howard. On the subject of swing influences on NO
            Message 5 of 26 , Jun 29, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              I have just phoned Red Lick and that particular Document CD is now out
              of the catalogue. Thanks, anyway, Howard.
              On the subject of swing influences on NO music, is anybody out there
              familiar with the superb Barnes/Bocage Big 5 session recorded in 1954
              at no less a place than the hallowed San Jacinto Hall in NO, location
              of the 1944 Bunk Johnson American Musics? This features Emile Barnes on
              clarinet, Pete Bocage on trumpet, Eddie Dawson on bass, Albert Jiles on
              drums, and Homer Eugene playing electric guitar in a manner that
              suggests he had listened to Charlie Christian more than just in
              passing. The traddies and the revivalists are everywhere contradicted
              by any prolonged contact with any music actually recorded in NO. That's
              probably why most of them steer clear of it and prefer the European
              product. But that's another subject and maybe another thread.
              Incidentally, one of my favourite stories is recounted in Sam Charters'
              book on New Orleans. Pete Bocage in the 20s was in NY with the Armand
              Piron Orchestra (and there's another thread). While he was up there he
              heard Phil Napoleon recording with the Original Memphis Five. Ever
              afterwards he would name Napoleon among his favourite trumpeters. I
              wonder if Sudhalter knows that story?
            • Howard Rye
              on 29/6/05 11:45, robertgreenwood_54uk at robertgreenwood_54uk@yahoo.co.uk ... Pity. I dare say they will reinstate it eventually, not least because one of the
              Message 6 of 26 , Jun 29, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                on 29/6/05 11:45, robertgreenwood_54uk at robertgreenwood_54uk@...
                wrote:

                > I have just phoned Red Lick and that particular Document CD is now out
                > of the catalogue. Thanks, anyway, Howard.

                Pity. I dare say they will reinstate it eventually, not least because one of
                the best is included in Document Short Cuts Vol. 3 (DOSCD9003) which I only
                know because I reviewed it for Blues & Rhythm.

                It's even possibly worth lobbying them.


                > On the subject of swing influences on NO music, is anybody out there
                > familiar with the superb Barnes/Bocage Big 5 session recorded in 1954
                > at no less a place than the hallowed San Jacinto Hall in NO, location
                > of the 1944 Bunk Johnson American Musics? This features Emile Barnes on
                > clarinet, Pete Bocage on trumpet, Eddie Dawson on bass, Albert Jiles on
                > drums, and Homer Eugene playing electric guitar in a manner that
                > suggests he had listened to Charlie Christian more than just in
                > passing.

                Yes, I am familiar with it, but why would this interest anyone else?!! More
                useful is the information that this superb session is American Music AMCD84.
                Get it or your toes will drop off.





                Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                howard@...
                Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
              • robertgreenwood_54uk
                Well, what I asked was: Is ANYBODY familiar with this superb session? It s a sort of roundabout way of drawing attention to it. Thanks for giving out the CD
                Message 7 of 26 , Jun 29, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  Well, what I asked was: Is ANYBODY familiar with this superb session?
                  It's a sort of roundabout way of drawing attention to it. Thanks for
                  giving out the CD number, Howard. My toes are still intact so I must
                  have bought it long ago.
                  Optimism prevailing over experience, this lunchtime I even called
                  into the Oxford Street branch of HMV to look for the Document. "No,
                  it's out of the catalogue, and we've never had it in stock." Now
                  there's a surprise!

                  -
                  -- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Howard Rye <howard@c...> wrote:
                  > on 29/6/05 11:45, robertgreenwood_54uk at robertgreenwood_54uk@y...
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  > > I have just phoned Red Lick and that particular Document CD is
                  now out
                  > > of the catalogue. Thanks, anyway, Howard.
                  >
                  > Pity. I dare say they will reinstate it eventually, not least
                  because one of
                  > the best is included in Document Short Cuts Vol. 3 (DOSCD9003)
                  which I only
                  > know because I reviewed it for Blues & Rhythm.
                  >
                  > It's even possibly worth lobbying them.
                  >
                  >
                  > > On the subject of swing influences on NO music, is anybody out
                  there
                  > > familiar with the superb Barnes/Bocage Big 5 session recorded in
                  1954
                  > > at no less a place than the hallowed San Jacinto Hall in NO,
                  location
                  > > of the 1944 Bunk Johnson American Musics? This features Emile
                  Barnes on
                  > > clarinet, Pete Bocage on trumpet, Eddie Dawson on bass, Albert
                  Jiles on
                  > > drums, and Homer Eugene playing electric guitar in a manner that
                  > > suggests he had listened to Charlie Christian more than just in
                  > > passing.
                  >
                  > Yes, I am familiar with it, but why would this interest anyone
                  else?!! More
                  > useful is the information that this superb session is American
                  Music AMCD84.
                  > Get it or your toes will drop off.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                  > howard@c...
                  > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                • Michael Rader
                  It is still listed on Document s web site at the (bargain) price of 8 pounds. If there s a run and they do sell out, they owe Howard a commission. The
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jun 29, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    It is still listed on Document's web site at the (bargain) price of 8 pounds. If there's a run and they do sell out, they owe Howard a commission.

                    The reduction suggests that they have the intention of reissuing it, probably with a better booklet (design-wise) and maybe remastered.

                    Best wishes,

                    Michael



                    RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com schrieb am 29.06.05 14:10:48:
                    >
                    > Well, what I asked was: Is ANYBODY familiar with this superb session?
                    > It's a sort of roundabout way of drawing attention to it. Thanks for
                    > giving out the CD number, Howard. My toes are still intact so I must
                    > have bought it long ago.
                    > Optimism prevailing over experience, this lunchtime I even called
                    > into the Oxford Street branch of HMV to look for the Document. "No,
                    > it's out of the catalogue, and we've never had it in stock." Now
                    > there's a surprise!
                    >
                    > -
                    > -- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Howard Rye <howard@c...> wrote:
                    > > on 29/6/05 11:45, robertgreenwood_54uk at robertgreenwood_54uk@y...
                    > > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > I have just phoned Red Lick and that particular Document CD is
                    > now out
                    > > > of the catalogue. Thanks, anyway, Howard.
                    > >
                    > > Pity. I dare say they will reinstate it eventually, not least
                    > because one of
                    > > the best is included in Document Short Cuts Vol. 3 (DOSCD9003)
                    > which I only
                    > > know because I reviewed it for Blues & Rhythm.
                    > >
                    > > It's even possibly worth lobbying them.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > > On the subject of swing influences on NO music, is anybody out
                    > there
                    > > > familiar with the superb Barnes/Bocage Big 5 session recorded in
                    > 1954
                    > > > at no less a place than the hallowed San Jacinto Hall in NO,
                    > location
                    > > > of the 1944 Bunk Johnson American Musics? This features Emile
                    > Barnes on
                    > > > clarinet, Pete Bocage on trumpet, Eddie Dawson on bass, Albert
                    > Jiles on
                    > > > drums, and Homer Eugene playing electric guitar in a manner that
                    > > > suggests he had listened to Charlie Christian more than just in
                    > > > passing.
                    > >
                    > > Yes, I am familiar with it, but why would this interest anyone
                    > else?!! More
                    > > useful is the information that this superb session is American
                    > Music AMCD84.
                    > > Get it or your toes will drop off.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                    > > howard@c...
                    > > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    __________________________________________________________
                    Mit WEB.DE FreePhone mit hoechster Qualitaet ab 0 Ct./Min.
                    weltweit telefonieren! http://freephone.web.de/?mc=021201
                  • robertgreenwood_54uk
                    I have just this minute got off the telephone to Document up in Newton Stewart. Apart from the one I have just ordered from them, they still have about a dozen
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jun 29, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I have just this minute got off the telephone to Document up in Newton
                      Stewart. Apart from the one I have just ordered from them, they still
                      have about a dozen copies of this CD left on their shelves. BUY BUY BUY!
                    • David Brown
                      Well done Michael.The Barnes Bocage is relevant and extremely interesting because although 1954 it maybe allows a glimpse of pre-revival N.O. or even the
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jun 29, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Well done Michael.

                        The Barnes Bocage is relevant and extremely interesting because although
                        1954 it maybe allows a glimpse of pre-revival N.O. or even the way one area
                        of music would have developed without a revival. Although it brings together
                        musicians from different generations ( or half-generations, I think Eugene
                        was born around 1914, anyone confirm ) and includes the totally
                        'inauthentic', to purists, e-gtr, the repertoire is pre-revival i.e.
                        non-'classic' . Eugene played e-guitar with Lucky Millender so brings
                        experience from the 'mainstream' of American popular music. From this
                        evidence he is a very good guitarist however, to make a living on Bourbon
                        Street and elsewhere, he turned into a pretty unastounding and derivative
                        trombone player. This suggests the perversions wrought upon music in N.O. by
                        the revival and subsequent 'Bourbon Street Industry'. Paradoxically, he is
                        on trombone on the Bocage Creole Serenaders Riversides of 1961, music of
                        similar feel and quality, but there is an e-gtr also, played by Sidney
                        Pflueger.

                        Well done also Rob, in bringing this still obscure session to greater
                        attention. If anybody is listening. This is , I think, what we are here for,
                        to share our knowledge and enthusiasm for the music. Myself, I'm all for
                        folks telling me what they like. More please. But I want to know also why
                        they like it.







                        ___________________________________________________________
                        Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                      • robertgreenwood_54uk
                        I don t know about Homer Eugene s trombone playing being unastounding and derivative. He certainly plays some very nice trombone on the recordings by Pete
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jun 29, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I don't know about Homer Eugene's trombone playing being "unastounding
                          and derivative." He certainly plays some very nice trombone on the
                          recordings by Pete Bocage's Creole Serenaders that you mention. You are
                          not confusing him with his brother, Wendell Eugene, are you? Pfleuger
                          plays strictly rhythm guitar on the Riverside; the guitarist on the
                          American Music (originally issued on MONO) is Emmanuel Sayles.
                        • David Brown
                          RobTwo threads emerge I think. The first, N.O. revival trombone style. I have listened again to Homer on both the Riverside and the Mono. Although it is
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jun 29, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Rob

                            Two threads emerge I think. The first, N.O. revival trombone style. I have
                            listened again to Homer on both the Riverside and the Mono. Although it is
                            possible I could confuse him with his brother, as I can't find any Wendell
                            in my collection, it is unlikely that I have. 'Unastounding' and
                            'derivative' I maintain. I did not say he wasn't 'nice'. Do you claim that
                            he is either astounding or original or both ?

                            My research now indicates that he also played trombone with Millinder. I
                            suggest his style on the Bocages is similar to that of another ex-Big Band
                            trombonist, Louis Nelson, not that I am suggesting imitation. Nelson,
                            omni-present though he is in the revival seldom convinces me of a genuine
                            commitment to this music. He learned to play in this style and limited
                            himself thereto and thereby. I hear the same in Homer. To me, Jim was the
                            only major trombone stylist in post-war N.O. I do accept that there were
                            other decent players particularly the brass band men, playing their figures.
                            The similar styles of Nelson & Homer are not however similar to Jim. So I
                            ask you, expert in this area, from where this secondary N.O. trombone style
                            emerged ?

                            The second thread is gtr/e.gtr/banjo in the revival. Am I correct in
                            thinking that before Bill Russell arrived in N.O. the banjo was defunct ?
                            Sayles and Homer certainly played e.gtr as well as gtr. Marrero also I think
                            wanted to record on e.gtr but the man would not let him. What about Guesnon
                            ? Is the banjo bound clunk clink of so much Revivalism Worldwide therefore
                            to be laid solely on the doorstep of dear old Bill ?

                            Dave





                            ___________________________________________________________
                            Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                          • Mordechai Litzman
                            I feel flattered that an old mouldy fig could stir up a hornet s nest with my question on the style of the Bunk-Lewis American Music recordings. After reading
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jun 29, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I feel flattered that an old mouldy fig could stir up a hornet's nest with my question on the style of the Bunk-Lewis American Music recordings. After reading all the posts my concensus is that the New Orleans style jazz continously evolved, and that their style represents a 40's version of N.O. jazz, and not and artifact of the10's or early 20's.
                              The mythical recordings of Bunk getting a new set of dentures and recording on a portable machine in a neighbor's house since he didn't have electricity actually exist on an American Music CD. At the moment I cannot locate it, but there is an unaccompanied recording of Bunk playing haltingly, but still with great beauty.
                              I did dig up AMCD-16, that has a duet with Bunk and Bertha Gonsoulin (p) playing Bolden Medley (1943). Nobody had a more beatiful tone on the trumpet than Bunk. This recording with the power and beatiful tone of Bunk makes a very emotional impact on me. Compare with the Tom Cat cornet solo with King Oliver and Jelly Roll Morton (1924) and I'll bet you that Bunk could outplay Oliver!

                              robertgreenwood_54uk <robertgreenwood_54uk@...> wrote:
                              Bunk had been out of action for some time before his rediscovery. His
                              reliability as a witness to the early days of jazz in New Orleans has
                              been questioned over the years and Don Marquis, in his book about
                              Bolden, disputes Bunk's own account of his birthdate being 1879 and
                              argues persuasively that Bunk was probably born in 1889 or
                              thereabouts and could not have played with Bolden. But poverty and
                              ill-health (dental health, at least) created a hiatus in Bunk's
                              musical career. For a musician, or for any artist, the source of
                              their self-esteem and their very self-definition is in the practice
                              of their art, and to be prevented from practising that art is, for
                              them, sheer misery. So Bunk, seeing these researchers taking such an
                              interest in him, seized the opportunity to get back into playing
                              music again. He told them what they wanted to hear and, when it was
                              suggested he could make records and start playing again, he was
                              prepared to accept most of the compromises necessary to bring that
                              about. I would suggest that Bunk's aim all along was to get to New
                              York and enter the mainstream of musical activity up there. I suspect
                              that he never really relished his role as the grand old man of jazz.
                              Michael is absolutely right when he points out that Lewis and
                              Robinson were not his sidemen of choice and that he preferred working
                              with Garvin Bushell and Ed Cuffee. It's interesting that on the
                              recordings he made in 1947 with Bushell & Cuffee we do not hear the
                              complex ensemble work and passing of the lead that we hear on the
                              AMs. The same can be said for the 1944 V-Discs he made in San
                              Francisco with Floyd O'Brien & Wade Whaley. Max Harrison, one of the
                              more perceptive critics on Bunk and on so much else in jazz, once
                              said that the AMs show Bunk playing relatively simple themes in a
                              complex way, while the 1947 sides show him playing more complex
                              themes in a relatively straightforward fashion.
                              We have little firm knowledge of what NO music was like in the
                              thirties since no recordings were made in NO at that time. At least
                              not of any of the resident musicians. All we have got to go on are
                              the testimony of those musicians who were around at the time and some
                              photographic evidence, as well as the handful of private recordings
                              referred to by Michael. The Robichaux tracks made in 1933 in NY may
                              give a clue, and so might the 1936 Don Albert sides. Any thoughts on
                              that, anyone? There is a photograph taken of Bunk in the late
                              twenties in a band with the ill-fated, and un-recorded, trumpeter
                              Evan Thomas. Looking at the line-up, I suspect they sounded not
                              unlike the territory bands. I have read that their repertoire
                              included Stardust and You Rascal You.
                              A note to the gentleman who initiated this thread with his enquiry
                              about Bunk: You have stirred up a hornet's nest. There is no more
                              controversial a figure in the whole of jazz than Bunk Johnson and no
                              area more argued over than the so-called New Orleans revival.





                              ---------------------------------
                              YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


                              Visit your group "RedHotJazz" on the web.

                              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              RedHotJazz-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                              ---------------------------------



                              __________________________________________________
                              Do You Yahoo!?
                              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                              http://mail.yahoo.com

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • David Brown
                              MordechaiRight. Nobody had a more beautiful tone than Bunk . Not only tone. He was an extremely inventive and often surprising musician and his phrasing and
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jun 29, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Mordechai

                                Right. 'Nobody had a more beautiful tone than Bunk'. Not only tone. He was
                                an extremely inventive and often surprising musician and his phrasing and
                                rhythmic sense were profound. One of the great jazz musicians. However,
                                somewhat invidious to compare him with Oliver. They were from the poles of
                                N.O. music which, although exaggerated, did exist. Bunk, a schooled reading
                                musician, Oliver not. Coincidently, Johnny Wiggs, in the article I quoted
                                earlier this week in regards to Snoozer, suggests this as a real handicap
                                for Oliver and something which shaped his career and maybe his decline.
                                Wiggs also very interestingly claims that Oliver never sounded the same
                                after about 1916 when he left for Chicago and comments on the quality of his
                                actual sound before that date. I think this probably can be in be
                                interpreted as only suggesting that records failed to capture that quality.
                                Wiggs places sound quality very highly and is scathing of Keppard for this
                                reason.

                                There is little, if anything, on record to suggest the glory of Oliver's
                                tone, if it ever was. But, nearer his peak we have him only acoustically.
                                Also, he became habituated to working in mute. Also, from an early age, he
                                suffered gum problems. I suggest though that in phrasing and rhythmic feel
                                Oliver and Bunk, almost contemporaries, are similar. The Morton duets you
                                mention are the best example. Oliver's genius was in mute, the first player
                                to use the mute musically not just for freakwork. Or can anyone find an
                                earlier example ?

                                Your summary of N.O.revival is also spot on with the proviso that the
                                revival was itself artificial as was the music produced by it, at least
                                slightly outside the evolved music of N.O.in the 40s. The real tragedy of
                                the revival was that evolution then ceased. Repertoire and performing style
                                were frozen, eventually, solid into the travesties of Bourbon Street and
                                near travesties of Preservation Hall.



                                ___________________________________________________________
                                How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
                                snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
                              • robertgreenwood_54uk
                                Well, neither Nelson nor Eugene (Homer, that is) were tailgate players exactly, but, other than that, I hear little similarity in their playing. They both had
                                Message 15 of 26 , Jun 30, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Well, neither Nelson nor Eugene (Homer, that is) were tailgate
                                  players exactly, but, other than that, I hear little similarity in
                                  their playing. They both had experience working in big bands and were
                                  well aware of the developments in jazz that had extended the
                                  expressive and technical resources of the trombone. Sheer economic
                                  necessity may have determined what sort of bands they played in. I
                                  share his great admiration for the playing of Jim Robinson, but in
                                  seeing Jim as "the
                                  only major trombone stylist in post-war N.O.", Dave seems to be
                                  taking rather a purist stance with regard to this music. One of the
                                  criticisms that could possibly be levelled at the revival is that it
                                  restricted and gave a partial view of what was, actually, a very rich
                                  musical tradition in which players like Nelson and Eugene could find
                                  a place. Nelson, for instance, has always seemed to me to have
                                  provided the perfect foil for Kid Thomas's staccato, minimalist lead
                                  trumpet, much more so than Jim Robinson.
                                  As for the second thread, there has been in recent years a tendency
                                  to devalue the work done by Bill Russell. All I can advise is that we
                                  listen to the music he recorded. Its sheer beauty should speak for
                                  itself. I am not sure if Russell ever set out exactly to "document"
                                  the music of NO in any "objective" fashion. His peer group – the
                                  people who would judge his efforts at that time – were his fellow
                                  record collectors and historians. It is only with our longer
                                  perspective, these sixty years later, that we can see the bigger
                                  picture and place the AMs in some context.
                                • David Brown
                                  RobWe agree on the existence of a non-tailgate N.O.trb. style post-revival and are still left with it s origins. I suggest it was the response of trombonists
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Jun 30, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Rob

                                    We agree on the existence of a non-tailgate N.O.trb. style post-revival and
                                    are still left with it's origins. I suggest it was the response of
                                    trombonists coming from a swing section environment to the demands of the
                                    revived 40s ensemble role. It is a pretty simple style owing nothing to the
                                    work of Teagarden and school. Are there any examples in the limited pre-war
                                    N.O. output ? Can experts in the 'classic' area find any wider provenance ?

                                    Nobody in this world is a greater admirer of the great Bill Russell than
                                    myself and to him we owe the debt for not only the AMs but also the glorious
                                    music recorded in their wake. However, we must accept that he brought his
                                    own agenda to N.O.in the 40s and played, at least, as active a role in the
                                    creation of this unique music as any musician.

                                    We also agree on the appropriateness of the work of Nelson within the Thomas
                                    band.

                                    Still left. Did Bill re-invent the banjo ?

                                    Dave



                                    ___________________________________________________________
                                    How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
                                    snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.