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Re: Tommy Ladnier (was re: Hughes Panassie}

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  • silverleafjb
    I guess I m fortunate in the fact that I had a) a father who was a musician with a pretty decent collection of jazz 78s, and b) an interest in the history of
    Message 1 of 44 , Jul 1, 2008
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      I guess I'm fortunate in the fact that I had a) a father who was a
      musician with a pretty decent collection of jazz 78s, and b) an
      interest in the history of the music that began when I was about 12
      years old (that would be 41 years ago - ouch!)

      (Before I recommend some Ladnier sides, I'd like to mention that I
      played a few years ago with New Orleans clarinetist Orange Kellin at
      the Waiheke Island festival in NZ. Had a great time there and would
      go back to NZ anytime!)

      Luckily for all of us who are "red hot jazzers," much of Ladnier's
      fine recordings are listenable on Scott Alexander's website. As a
      primer I would recommend:

      Play That Thing (multiple takes) Ollie Powers -
      http://redhotjazz.com/ophs.html
      This tune is just a blues, which was Tommy's speciality, and the
      influence of Joe Oliver is very strong. As a bonus you get some great
      blues-style clarinet playing by Jimmie Noone

      Snag It - Fletcher Henderson's Dixie Stompers
      http://redhotjazz.com/ds.html
      Again, Tommy pays homage to Papa Joe
      Other DS sides w/Tommy (and sometimes Joe Smith)
      Have It Ready
      Ain't She Sweet
      Wabash Blues
      Wang Wang Blues
      St. Louis Shuffle
      Cornfed!
      Variety Stomp
      Black Maria
      Goose Pimples
      St. Louis Blues
      Baltimore

      With Fletcher Henderson (again, swapping solo space with Joe Smith)
      http://redhotjazz.com/fho.html
      Henderson Stomp
      The Chant
      I Need Lovin'
      Clarinet Marmalade
      Hot Mustard
      Sweet Thing
      Baby Won't You Please Come Home
      Some of These Days
      Rocky Mountain Blues
      Tozo
      Stockholm Stomp
      Have it Ready
      Fidgety Feet
      Sensation
      Variety Stomp
      PDQ Blues
      Livery Stable Blues
      I'm Comin' Virginia
      Whiteman Stomp
      Shufflin' Sadie
      Hop Off

      Tommy's also on a number of the side by Lovie Austin
      http://redhotjazz.com/la2.html

      I don't remember which ones, sorry. He's also on sides with Sam
      Wooding's band. http://redhotjazz.com/woodingo.html
      You might try
      Bull Foot Stomp
      Carrie
      Tiger Rag
      Sweet Black Blues
      Indian Love (Call)
      Ready for the River
      Mammy's Prayer
      My Pal Called Sal
      Krazy Kat

      Tommy did one session that's a corker with Clarence Williams
      http://redhotjazz.com/williamsb7.html
      Would Ja?
      Senegalese Stomp

      Cheers,
      Chris Tyle









      > >
      > > Chris,
      > Firstly thank you for your courteous and meansured reply. I
      > frankly don't think our opinions are as far apart as you might
      > imagine. I think that we have more shared opinions in this matter
      > than differing ones.
      > One aspect of my lack of appreciation for Tommy Ladniers' work
      > is probably the paucity of his recordings that are available,
      > especially in this small corner of the world and also of course the
      > lack of people who have even heard of Bix let alone Ladnier. Jazz
      > fans of any stripe are very thin on the ground hereabouts. I doubt
      > that Ladnier's name would raise much interest even within our email
      > group which stretches the length of New Zealand. I will certainly
      > try and see what reaction I get from the group.
      > I am more than willing to acknowledge that I may have a blind
      > spot in my jazz appreciation, in my experience everyone does to
      some
      > extent. I have been told in the most condecending terms that my
      lack
      > of appreciation for the work of Miles Davis can only be cured if I
      > persist and listen to more and more of his work. The problem with
      > that is that top me music is pure p[leasure and that I really am
      > well past the age when I wish to invest huge amounts of time in
      > music that I am unlikely to want to listen to!
      > Like you I hesitate to say that anyone is 'better' than anyone
      > else-jazz musicians can be creative within the bounds of their
      > technique at whatever level.
      > Never the less this whole interesting discussion has already
      sent
      > me back to my collection and my books and I willbe actively seeking
      > out more of Ladnier's work to listen to.
      > I would also say that I am just as interested in looking for
      > chances to listen to Ladnier as I am to listen to people like Frank
      > Newton, Joe Smith and so many others who are under appreciated
      > trumpeters in jazz.
      > Again thanks for the discussion and the ideas which are the very
      > reason I was keen to join in this group.
      > When are you coming to this part of the world?
      > Incidentally the only real reaction I had from our local group
      is
      > a friend who suggested that you seem to have inferred from
      Ladnier's
      > being in the Henderson band the same thing you could have inferred
      > from Bix being in the Whiteman band- ie that he was good reader.
      >
      > Roger Strong
      >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "rogerstrong257" <roger@>
      wrote:
      > > >
      > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "silverleafjb"
      > <silverleafjb@>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > I have to strongly disagree here. As a cornet player of many
      > years,
      > > > > the statement about Bix being "better" than Tommy Ladnier is
      > > > > poppycock! It's an "apples and oranges" comparison as far as
      > their
      > > > > jazz playing is concerned. But, on the technical level, Bix
      > was a
      > > > > lousy reader; not so for Ladnier who was accomplished enough
      > to
      > > > play
      > > > > with the bands of Sam Wooding and Fletcher Henderson. You had
      > to be
      > > > > damn sharp as a reader to play with Henderson.
      > > > >
      > > > > Listen to Ladnier's accompaniment on Bessie Smith's "Foolish
      > Man
      > > > > Blues," for example, to illustrate what a fine player Tommy
      > Ladnier
      > > > > was. Or, for that matter, any of his sides with Fletcher
      > Henderson
      > > > > (especially, "Snag It" with the Dixie Stompers). Or "Play
      That
      > > > Thing"
      > > > > by Ollie Powers. Ladnier was a New Orleans, blues-playing,
      > King
      > > > Oliver
      > > > > inspired player. Bix was not - his inspiration came from
      > elsewhere,
      > > > > even though he undoubtedly heard both Oliver and Ladnier.
      > > > >
      > > > > Cheers,
      > > > > Chris Tyle
      > > > >
      > > > > I certainly agree it's all a matter of opinion and
      > obviously
      > > > what you hear when you hear Ladnier is something special-what I
      > hear
      > > > is not, especially compared with Bix. Again the influence of
      > black
      > > > musicians is a matter of opinion. Poppycock (to you) or not
      it's
      > my
      > > > listening opinion over more than 50 years and has the same
      > validity
      > > > as any one else.
      > > > I think its a huge red herring to bring in the matter of
      > > > ability to read music well or poorly. It fairly well documented
      > that
      > > > Louis Amstrong was not a good reader at least initially and
      > possibly
      > > > even later in life. I sould say that most poor jazz readers had
      > a
      > > > variety of ways to compensate and it certainly didn't affect
      > their
      > > > creative abilites. There must have been thousands of good fast
      > > > reading section men over the years but the truly creative
      > jazzmen
      > > > have been much fewer in number.
      > > > Again Bix certainly had a much greater influence (in my
      > opinion)
      > > > on other musicians that Ladnier ever did. While not a huge
      > influence
      > > > one can hear traces of Bix in many trumpeters even to the
      > present. I
      > > > would suggest it would be harder to trace the influence
      directly
      > of
      > > > Ladniers style and sound on other musicians.
      > > >
      > > > cheers,
      > > >
      > > > Roger Strong
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Olivier Douville
      > > > > <douvilleolivier@> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > And what 'bout that dear old Ward Pinkett ?
      > > > > > OD
      > > > > >
      > > > > > To say that Tommy Ladnier was as good or better than
      Bix
      > may
      > > > be
      > > > > > your opinion but in mine its complete nonsence!
      > > > > > We all have our blind spots with regard to various artists
      > but
      > > > > > that is just so weird. I think that in you attempt to make
      > some
      > > > racial
      > > > > > point you have got more than a little carried away.
      > > > > > Of coure I can conceed that you (for some reason) can't hear
      > > > > > anything special in Bix' playing but I am doubly surprised
      > that
      > > > you
      > > > > > hear anything great in Ladnier's playing He had much great
      > > > limitations
      > > > > > than Bix did.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Roger Storng
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Olivier Douville
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Directeur de publication de PSYCHOLOGIE CLINIQUE
      > > > > >
      > > > > > 22, rue de la Tour d'Auvergne 75009 Paris
      > > > > > tel : 06 77 69 24 51
      > > > > > ou
      > > > > > 01 53 20 91 81
      > > > > >
      > > > > > douvilleolivier@
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > liens
      > > > > > http://www.dunod.com/pages/ouvrages/ficheouvrage.asp?
      id=49180
      > > > > > http://www.psycho-ressources.com/olivier-douville.html
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Mordechai Litzman
      Growing up in Sweden I met Orjan Kjellin (and Lars Ivar Edegran, p) in 1962 playing in the Imperial Band. This band was modeled on the early American revival
      Message 44 of 44 , Jul 3, 2008
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        Growing up in Sweden I met Orjan Kjellin (and Lars Ivar Edegran, p) in 1962 playing in the Imperial Band. This band was modeled on the early American revival bands from the 40's and 50's. They recorded their first titles on Sture Hallstom's Pirate Records. On a pre Katarina visit to New Orleans a few years ago I found a CD issued on GHB BCD-144 with all their 17 recorded titles. These recordings have stood the test of time. How a bunch of Swedish teenagers aged 17-18 could sound almost as good as the 1953 Delmark recordings of Geo Lewis is beyond me.


        ----- Original Message ----
        From: silverleafjb <silverleafjb@...>
        To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, July 2, 2008 6:58:32 PM
        Subject: [RedHotJazz] Orange Kellin


        Yes, I'm aware that Orange Kellin was born and spent his early years in
        Sweden. But, he has spent most of his life in New Orleans playing New
        Orleans jazz. Hence, in my mind, he's a New Orleans clarinetist.

        BTW, I work and have worked with Orange quite a bit. He was a member of
        my Silver Leaf Jazz Band in New Orleans and I work with his group the
        New Orleans Blues Serenaders. I will be playing the Edinburgh jazz
        festival later this month with Orange.

        Cheers,
        Chris Tyle






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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