Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Color blind Bix's Genius Transcends Race

Expand Messages
  • Tommer
    ... been ... guy ... above ... on ... who ... segregation ... Why ... more ... he ... them, ... like ... exaplained ... wouldn t ... Louis ... a ... color ...
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 1, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Tommer" <tommersl@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@>
      > wrote:
      > > And now, we have another amazing assertion: if Bix had
      > > not been white, his standing as a jazz musician would not have
      been
      > > what it is. The reasoning (if I can call it that) behind this is
      > that
      > > since white musicians are inferior to black musicans, one white
      guy
      > > that stands out a bit above the other white guys is presented by
      > > white supremacist people as the "white hope." Basically, you are
      > > accusing all white folk who feel that Bix was one of the two or
      > three
      > > top cornet/trumpet players of being racists, of assessing Bix's
      > > qualities, not using a color-blind test, but of pushing him up
      above
      > > his "true" value because he was white. That is an outrageous and
      > > totally unjustified accusation, one that has absolutely no basis
      on
      > facts.
      > >
      >
      > I didn't say so Albert. No I didn't say whites are inferior. One
      who
      > thinks Bix is the greatest or one of the few greatests, I don't
      > assume he is a racist! who push white hopes to the top, it is
      > probably his taste. What I said is that people denies the
      segregation
      > and all what really happened, on basis of politically correctness
      > they ignore the fact that one-drop rule was the contemporary social
      > thing of the time.
      >
      > This makes them unaware that they do make the dichotomy on their
      > mind. They self deny it. And later they order it on their mind and
      > listing whites seperately from black. So since Panassie didn't like
      > most whites he is considered a racist. It is not hus taste? Why?
      Why
      > Panassie who like the New Orleans black/creole bands is a racist
      more
      > than someone who likes Paul Whiteman, Bix and Trambauer and etc?
      >
      > White hope it means that if there is a black champion at something,
      > there is a need for a white to show he can outdo him. I said before
      > that Bix was a great Jazz man. However, it is impossible to prove
      he
      > is among the 2-3 top cornet/trumpet players. There were many of
      them,
      > Keppard, Oliver, Louis, Miley, Ladnier, Jabbo Smith, and several
      > others. All of them were as great as Bix was. I think that I can
      > acccept someone saying something like :"the era of great soloist
      like
      > Jabbo, Louis, Oliver, Bix, Ladnier..."
      >
      > But Bix is getting more attention than any of them save Louis. I
      > believe that it has to be because of color (and I already
      exaplained
      > how it works psychologically!), as I said, Bix was one of many
      > greats , if we color blind there is no other way to say it. The 2
      > schools is what makes people talk about Louis and Bix! If it
      wouldn't
      > be Bix, I guess some other white soloist would be elected with
      Louis
      > as the two most influential soloists in books.
      >
      > Logically, because each was influencing one of the schools. Bix was
      a
      > king of his school. And Louis of his. And the dichotomy wasn't
      color
      > blind.
      >
      > Tommer
      >

      Albert I think I understand what confuse you. The black Jazz school
      happened in my opinion to be more important than the white. It
      doesn't mean that I say that whites are inferior! It is my opinion
      that the black/creole collective creation is the more important
      school of Jazz than the white school of Jazz. For instance you can
      think of university A and B. A might be a better or more important
      university. IT doesn't mean that anyone from B is inferior to A.
      However, it might show that the collective of A will have
      statistically more echievments than that of the collective of B.
      Tommer
    • Albert Haim
      I am not confused. No matter how much back-pedaling you do, nothing is going to change. Your assertions were crystal clear: I think that if everyone were
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 1, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        I am not confused. No matter how much back-pedaling you do, nothing is
        going to change. Your assertions were crystal clear:

        "I think that if everyone were color blind, Bix wouldn't get so much
        attention as he gets.
        In fact, I believe that because there were two schools on the base
        of color, it is the only way to justify Bix as a hero of Jazz in the
        calibre of the others I mentioned, and he got more than most of them!
        In terms of two schools-he is a leader at his school. In terms of
        color blind test-he is one among many other players!"

        The ONLY (your word) way to justify Bix as a hero of Jazz is that that
        there were two schools, e.g., that he was white. If everyone were color
        blind, Bix wouldn't get so much attention as he gets; e.g., he gets
        attention because he was white. So, I and all other Bixophiles who
        view Bix as one of the greatest 1920s musicians do so because he was
        white. If we did not take color or the two schools into consideration,
        he would not be among the top? Of course he would be. You can throw in
        all the 1920s musicians in one pot, white, black, creoles, American
        Indians, etc, and I (and mnay others) would still pick Bix as one of
        a handful of giants.

        Your satement of why Bix is "a hero of jazz" reminds me of another
        racist statement associated with the presidentail election in the US.
        Geraldine Ferraro stated that the only reason Obama is where he is now
        is because he is black.

        Albert



        "--- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Tommer" <tommersl@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Tommer" <tommersl@> wrote:
        > >
        > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@>
        > > wrote:
        > > > And now, we have another amazing assertion: if Bix had
        > > > not been white, his standing as a jazz musician would not have
        > been
        > > > what it is. The reasoning (if I can call it that) behind this is
        > > that
        > > > since white musicians are inferior to black musicans, one white
        > guy
        > > > that stands out a bit above the other white guys is presented by
        > > > white supremacist people as the "white hope." Basically, you are
        > > > accusing all white folk who feel that Bix was one of the two or
        > > three
        > > > top cornet/trumpet players of being racists, of assessing Bix's
        > > > qualities, not using a color-blind test, but of pushing him up
        > above
        > > > his "true" value because he was white. That is an outrageous and
        > > > totally unjustified accusation, one that has absolutely no basis
        > on
        > > facts.
        > > >
        > >
        > > I didn't say so Albert. No I didn't say whites are inferior. One
        > who
        > > thinks Bix is the greatest or one of the few greatests, I don't
        > > assume he is a racist! who push white hopes to the top, it is
        > > probably his taste. What I said is that people denies the
        > segregation
        > > and all what really happened, on basis of politically correctness
        > > they ignore the fact that one-drop rule was the contemporary social
        > > thing of the time.
        > >
        > > This makes them unaware that they do make the dichotomy on their
        > > mind. They self deny it. And later they order it on their mind and
        > > listing whites seperately from black. So since Panassie didn't like
        > > most whites he is considered a racist. It is not hus taste? Why?
        > Why
        > > Panassie who like the New Orleans black/creole bands is a racist
        > more
        > > than someone who likes Paul Whiteman, Bix and Trambauer and etc?
        > >
        > > White hope it means that if there is a black champion at something,
        > > there is a need for a white to show he can outdo him. I said before
        > > that Bix was a great Jazz man. However, it is impossible to prove
        > he
        > > is among the 2-3 top cornet/trumpet players. There were many of
        > them,
        > > Keppard, Oliver, Louis, Miley, Ladnier, Jabbo Smith, and several
        > > others. All of them were as great as Bix was. I think that I can
        > > acccept someone saying something like :"the era of great soloist
        > like
        > > Jabbo, Louis, Oliver, Bix, Ladnier..."
        > >
        > > But Bix is getting more attention than any of them save Louis. I
        > > believe that it has to be because of color (and I already
        > exaplained
        > > how it works psychologically!), as I said, Bix was one of many
        > > greats , if we color blind there is no other way to say it. The 2
        > > schools is what makes people talk about Louis and Bix! If it
        > wouldn't
        > > be Bix, I guess some other white soloist would be elected with
        > Louis
        > > as the two most influential soloists in books.
        > >
        > > Logically, because each was influencing one of the schools. Bix was
        > a
        > > king of his school. And Louis of his. And the dichotomy wasn't
        > color
        > > blind.
        > >
        > > Tommer
        > >
        >
        > Albert I think I understand what confuse you. The black Jazz school
        > happened in my opinion to be more important than the white. It
        > doesn't mean that I say that whites are inferior! It is my opinion
        > that the black/creole collective creation is the more important
        > school of Jazz than the white school of Jazz. For instance you can
        > think of university A and B. A might be a better or more important
        > university. IT doesn't mean that anyone from B is inferior to A.
        > However, it might show that the collective of A will have
        > statistically more echievments than that of the collective of B.
        > Tommer
        >
      • Michael Rader
        I would strongly suggest that we close this thread which started with - to put it diplomatically - an easily misundestood assertion on Gunter Schuller s racial
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 2, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          I would strongly suggest that we close this thread which started with - to put it diplomatically - an easily misundestood assertion on Gunter Schuller's racial agenda and which now involves unfounded lay sociological theory.

          Michael Rader (group co-moderator and PhD in Sociology)
          _______________________________________________________________________
          Jetzt neu! Sch├╝tzen Sie Ihren PC mit McAfee und WEB.DE. 30 Tage
          kostenlos testen. http://www.pc-sicherheit.web.de/startseite/?mc=022220
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.