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Re: Tommy Ladnier (was re: Hughes Panassie}

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  • rogerstrong257
    ... had, in ... I ... that ... might ... one ... being limited . ... (on ... would ... musician. I ... each ... Marable s ... would ... read. ... appreciation
    Message 1 of 44 , Jul 1, 2008
      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "silverleafjb" <silverleafjb@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Roger,
      > My point of contention was the statement you made that Ladnier
      had, in
      > your opinion "much great (sic) limitations than Bix did." Frankly,
      I
      > see no such limitations in Ladnier's playing. Maybe you believe
      that
      > his playing was limited, but as a musician I was pointing out the
      > fact, not opinion, that Bix was the one with limitations, i.e., his
      > reading ability, which was a severe handicap for him in working for
      > Goldkette and Whiteman - and one which he was keenly aware of, I
      might
      > add.
      >
      > Clearly you have a great appreciation for Bix. I do too, and his
      > playing was one of the reasons I became involved with playing jazz.
      > But I can't, and never will be able to see any "limitations" with
      one
      > musician's playing over another. The fact that Bix gives you more
      > plesure than Ladnier is best stated that way, rather than seeing
      > another player whom you don't appreciate as somehow
      being "limited".
      > Personally, I get the same amount of joy listening to the work of
      > Louis, Bix, Ladnier, Frank Guarente, Freddie Keppard, Tommy Dorsey
      (on
      > trumpet), Jack Purvis, Roy Eldridge, Bunny Berigan, et. al., I
      would
      > never deign to say one was "better" than another as a jazz
      musician. I
      > love them all for their abilities and what they said musically -
      each
      > wonderfully different from the other.
      >
      > Regarding Armstrong's reading ability, I've been over this several
      > times here and on the Dixieland Jazz Mailing List. Yes, Armstrong
      > could read; he couldn't have played with Fate Marable's band on the
      > Streckfus riverboats if he couldn't. Period - end of story.
      Marable's
      > was a reading band, especially for a cornet/trumpet player. Louis
      > stated that David Jones, saxophonist and mellophone player with the
      > band, helped him with his reading. Again, as with Ladnier, Louis
      would
      > not have been able to play with Fletcher Henderson (or King Oliver,
      > for that matter), if he couldn't read. He may not have been a
      > brilliant sight reader, but then again, maybe he was. I just don't
      > have evidence as I do the definite evidence of his ability to
      read.
      >
      > Frankly, I have as hard a time understanding your lack of
      appreciation
      > for Ladnier as much as Tommer's lack of appreciation of Bix. But
      > nothing that either of you may write will dim my enthusiasm for
      either
      > player.
      >
      > Cheers,
      > Chris Tyle
      >
      > Chris,
      Firstly thank you for your courteous and meansured reply. I
      frankly don't think our opinions are as far apart as you might
      imagine. I think that we have more shared opinions in this matter
      than differing ones.
      One aspect of my lack of appreciation for Tommy Ladniers' work
      is probably the paucity of his recordings that are available,
      especially in this small corner of the world and also of course the
      lack of people who have even heard of Bix let alone Ladnier. Jazz
      fans of any stripe are very thin on the ground hereabouts. I doubt
      that Ladnier's name would raise much interest even within our email
      group which stretches the length of New Zealand. I will certainly
      try and see what reaction I get from the group.
      I am more than willing to acknowledge that I may have a blind
      spot in my jazz appreciation, in my experience everyone does to some
      extent. I have been told in the most condecending terms that my lack
      of appreciation for the work of Miles Davis can only be cured if I
      persist and listen to more and more of his work. The problem with
      that is that top me music is pure p[leasure and that I really am
      well past the age when I wish to invest huge amounts of time in
      music that I am unlikely to want to listen to!
      Like you I hesitate to say that anyone is 'better' than anyone
      else-jazz musicians can be creative within the bounds of their
      technique at whatever level.
      Never the less this whole interesting discussion has already sent
      me back to my collection and my books and I willbe actively seeking
      out more of Ladnier's work to listen to.
      I would also say that I am just as interested in looking for
      chances to listen to Ladnier as I am to listen to people like Frank
      Newton, Joe Smith and so many others who are under appreciated
      trumpeters in jazz.
      Again thanks for the discussion and the ideas which are the very
      reason I was keen to join in this group.
      When are you coming to this part of the world?
      Incidentally the only real reaction I had from our local group is
      a friend who suggested that you seem to have inferred from Ladnier's
      being in the Henderson band the same thing you could have inferred
      from Bix being in the Whiteman band- ie that he was good reader.

      Roger Strong

      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "rogerstrong257" <roger@> wrote:
      > >
      > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "silverleafjb"
      <silverleafjb@>
      > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > I have to strongly disagree here. As a cornet player of many
      years,
      > > > the statement about Bix being "better" than Tommy Ladnier is
      > > > poppycock! It's an "apples and oranges" comparison as far as
      their
      > > > jazz playing is concerned. But, on the technical level, Bix
      was a
      > > > lousy reader; not so for Ladnier who was accomplished enough
      to
      > > play
      > > > with the bands of Sam Wooding and Fletcher Henderson. You had
      to be
      > > > damn sharp as a reader to play with Henderson.
      > > >
      > > > Listen to Ladnier's accompaniment on Bessie Smith's "Foolish
      Man
      > > > Blues," for example, to illustrate what a fine player Tommy
      Ladnier
      > > > was. Or, for that matter, any of his sides with Fletcher
      Henderson
      > > > (especially, "Snag It" with the Dixie Stompers). Or "Play That
      > > Thing"
      > > > by Ollie Powers. Ladnier was a New Orleans, blues-playing,
      King
      > > Oliver
      > > > inspired player. Bix was not - his inspiration came from
      elsewhere,
      > > > even though he undoubtedly heard both Oliver and Ladnier.
      > > >
      > > > Cheers,
      > > > Chris Tyle
      > > >
      > > > I certainly agree it's all a matter of opinion and
      obviously
      > > what you hear when you hear Ladnier is something special-what I
      hear
      > > is not, especially compared with Bix. Again the influence of
      black
      > > musicians is a matter of opinion. Poppycock (to you) or not it's
      my
      > > listening opinion over more than 50 years and has the same
      validity
      > > as any one else.
      > > I think its a huge red herring to bring in the matter of
      > > ability to read music well or poorly. It fairly well documented
      that
      > > Louis Amstrong was not a good reader at least initially and
      possibly
      > > even later in life. I sould say that most poor jazz readers had
      a
      > > variety of ways to compensate and it certainly didn't affect
      their
      > > creative abilites. There must have been thousands of good fast
      > > reading section men over the years but the truly creative
      jazzmen
      > > have been much fewer in number.
      > > Again Bix certainly had a much greater influence (in my
      opinion)
      > > on other musicians that Ladnier ever did. While not a huge
      influence
      > > one can hear traces of Bix in many trumpeters even to the
      present. I
      > > would suggest it would be harder to trace the influence directly
      of
      > > Ladniers style and sound on other musicians.
      > >
      > > cheers,
      > >
      > > Roger Strong
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Olivier Douville
      > > > <douvilleolivier@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > And what 'bout that dear old Ward Pinkett ?
      > > > > OD
      > > > >
      > > > > To say that Tommy Ladnier was as good or better than Bix
      may
      > > be
      > > > > your opinion but in mine its complete nonsence!
      > > > > We all have our blind spots with regard to various artists
      but
      > > > > that is just so weird. I think that in you attempt to make
      some
      > > racial
      > > > > point you have got more than a little carried away.
      > > > > Of coure I can conceed that you (for some reason) can't hear
      > > > > anything special in Bix' playing but I am doubly surprised
      that
      > > you
      > > > > hear anything great in Ladnier's playing He had much great
      > > limitations
      > > > > than Bix did.
      > > > >
      > > > > Roger Storng
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Olivier Douville
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Directeur de publication de PSYCHOLOGIE CLINIQUE
      > > > >
      > > > > 22, rue de la Tour d'Auvergne 75009 Paris
      > > > > tel : 06 77 69 24 51
      > > > > ou
      > > > > 01 53 20 91 81
      > > > >
      > > > > douvilleolivier@
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > liens
      > > > > http://www.dunod.com/pages/ouvrages/ficheouvrage.asp?id=49180
      > > > > http://www.psycho-ressources.com/olivier-douville.html
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Mordechai Litzman
      Growing up in Sweden I met Orjan Kjellin (and Lars Ivar Edegran, p) in 1962 playing in the Imperial Band. This band was modeled on the early American revival
      Message 44 of 44 , Jul 3, 2008
        Growing up in Sweden I met Orjan Kjellin (and Lars Ivar Edegran, p) in 1962 playing in the Imperial Band. This band was modeled on the early American revival bands from the 40's and 50's. They recorded their first titles on Sture Hallstom's Pirate Records. On a pre Katarina visit to New Orleans a few years ago I found a CD issued on GHB BCD-144 with all their 17 recorded titles. These recordings have stood the test of time. How a bunch of Swedish teenagers aged 17-18 could sound almost as good as the 1953 Delmark recordings of Geo Lewis is beyond me.


        ----- Original Message ----
        From: silverleafjb <silverleafjb@...>
        To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, July 2, 2008 6:58:32 PM
        Subject: [RedHotJazz] Orange Kellin


        Yes, I'm aware that Orange Kellin was born and spent his early years in
        Sweden. But, he has spent most of his life in New Orleans playing New
        Orleans jazz. Hence, in my mind, he's a New Orleans clarinetist.

        BTW, I work and have worked with Orange quite a bit. He was a member of
        my Silver Leaf Jazz Band in New Orleans and I work with his group the
        New Orleans Blues Serenaders. I will be playing the Edinburgh jazz
        festival later this month with Orange.

        Cheers,
        Chris Tyle






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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