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Katie Crippen on Black Swan - two questions

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  • Agustín Pérez
    Both Katie Crippen sessions for Black Swan (February or March 1921 & June 1921) are listed as by Katie Crippen accompanied by Henderson s Novelty Orchestra.
    Message 1 of 5 , Jun 10, 2008
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      Both Katie Crippen sessions for Black Swan (February or March 1921 &
      June 1921) are listed as by Katie Crippen accompanied by Henderson's
      Novelty Orchestra.

      However, there is some controversy between Rust and Bruyninckx (both
      last editions, CD) on who's playing piano on each date:

      -Rust lists Fletcher Henderson for the Feb/Mar date (Blind Man's
      Blues / Sing'em For Mamma, Play'em For Me), while Bruyninckx lists
      Willie Gant.

      -On the other hand, Rust lists Willie Gant for the June recording
      session (That's My Cup Blues / When It's Too Late), while Bruyninckx
      lists Fletcher Henderson.

      My copy of Document CD DOCD-5342 "Fletcher Henderson & The Blues
      Singers, Volume 1" lists Henderson on both dates.



      Now, the second question:

      -Rust lists just one take for "Sing'em Mamma, Play'em For Me" (P-104-
      2), listed as "Play'em For Mama, Sing'em For Me" and issued first on
      Black Swan 2003...

      -...while Bruyninckx shows two different takes, P-104-1 and P-104-4,
      though he lists both as issued on Black Swan 2003!

      Document DOCD-5342 lists take 2, following Rust (though correcting
      the tune title), but I have find in the online LoC catalog that
      Document DOCD-5602 "Classic Blues, Jazz & Vaudeville Singers, Volume
      2, 1920-1926" includes a take 1.



      Could anybody shed some light on these two different queries?



      Thanks in advance!

      Agustín Pérez
      Madrid (Spain)
      ekebbbapg AT yahoo DOT es
      http://www.jazzdiscography.com/Artists/Montoliu/
    • Howard Rye
      In this instance, Bruyninckx is using the best source, which is Walter Allen¹s Hendersonia. He lists Henderson for both dates. Therefore Blues & Gospel
      Message 2 of 5 , Jun 10, 2008
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        In this instance, Bruyninckx is using the best source, which is Walter
        Allen¹s Hendersonia. He lists Henderson for both dates. Therefore Blues &
        Gospel Records lists Henderson, because we always follow Hendersonia unless
        there is a very good reason indeed not to, and Walter Bruyninkcx has copied
        it from us (or conceivably directly from Hendersonia, but why would he
        bother?).

        Buster Bailey and Garvin Bushell both recalled recording with Katie Crippen.

        I can see no reason to think that the labels lie in naming Henderson (though
        it is certainly true that some Black Swans credited to Henderson are by
        others, so this is not conclusive.)

        Takes are complicated by the existence of two distinct issues of Black Swan
        2003 (one with the title of matrix P104 as Sing ŒEm, etc., and one with the
        title as Play ŒEm, etc.) which show the takes in a different format. There
        are certainly two takes of this master on different copies of the Black
        Swan, but it appears that all Play ŒEm¹s are ­2, while Sing ŒEm can be ­1 or
        ­2.

        I guessed that Bruynincx¹s P-104-4 was just a typo and this is confirmed
        because he has corrected it to ­1 & -2 in the current CD-R edition. Which
        edition are you using?

        P-103 (Blind Man) is always take ­2. Take ­3 has been reported in the past
        but has never been seen by serious scholars and Helge Thygesen¹s Black Swan
        study doesn¹t even consider it. Early 78 collectors were often very confused
        about distinguishing takes from pressing codes, stamper numbers and other
        numbers put into the run-off areas of discs by and for technicians.

        At the end of the day the only way to be sure of takes is to listen to them
        and establish actual differences. Unfortunately I don¹t seem to have done
        P-104. Document claim to have issued both takes ­1 on DOCD5602, -2 on
        DOCD5342, as you say. One of these days!



        on 10/06/2008 10:25, Agustín Pérez at ekebbbapg@... wrote:

        >
        >
        >
        > Both Katie Crippen sessions for Black Swan (February or March 1921 &
        > June 1921) are listed as by Katie Crippen accompanied by Henderson's
        > Novelty Orchestra.
        >
        > However, there is some controversy between Rust and Bruyninckx (both
        > last editions, CD) on who's playing piano on each date:
        >
        > -Rust lists Fletcher Henderson for the Feb/Mar date (Blind Man's
        > Blues / Sing'em For Mamma, Play'em For Me), while Bruyninckx lists
        > Willie Gant.
        >
        > -On the other hand, Rust lists Willie Gant for the June recording
        > session (That's My Cup Blues / When It's Too Late), while Bruyninckx
        > lists Fletcher Henderson.
        >
        > My copy of Document CD DOCD-5342 "Fletcher Henderson & The Blues
        > Singers, Volume 1" lists Henderson on both dates.
        >
        > Now, the second question:
        >
        > -Rust lists just one take for "Sing'em Mamma, Play'em For Me" (P-104-
        > 2), listed as "Play'em For Mama, Sing'em For Me" and issued first on
        > Black Swan 2003...
        >
        > -...while Bruyninckx shows two different takes, P-104-1 and P-104-4,
        > though he lists both as issued on Black Swan 2003!
        >
        > Document DOCD-5342 lists take 2, following Rust (though correcting
        > the tune title), but I have find in the online LoC catalog that
        > Document DOCD-5602 "Classic Blues, Jazz & Vaudeville Singers, Volume
        > 2, 1920-1926" includes a take 1.
        >
        > Could anybody shed some light on these two different queries?
        >
        > Thanks in advance!
        >
        > Agustín Pérez
        > Madrid (Spain)


        Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
        howard@...
        Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Howard Rye
        Any excuse not to do what I should be doing. There are certainly two aurally distinct takes on Document. The differences are not very great. The easiest way to
        Message 3 of 5 , Jun 10, 2008
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          Any excuse not to do what I should be doing.

          There are certainly two aurally distinct takes on Document. The differences
          are not very great. The easiest way to be sure they¹re different is by the
          fourth line of the chanted passage with piano accompaniment in the middle.

          On take ­1 on DOCD5602 this is:

          Oh, play it for your mama till the cows come home.

          Take ­2 on DOCD5342 starts straight in with

          Play it for your mama till the cows come home.

          ³It² is a music roll, and if you believe that you must be in kindergarden!




          on 10/06/2008 12:51, Howard Rye at howard@... wrote:

          >
          >
          >
          > In this instance, Bruyninckx is using the best source, which is Walter
          > Allen¹s Hendersonia. He lists Henderson for both dates. Therefore Blues &
          > Gospel Records lists Henderson, because we always follow Hendersonia unless
          > there is a very good reason indeed not to, and Walter Bruyninkcx has copied
          > it from us (or conceivably directly from Hendersonia, but why would he
          > bother?).
          >
          > Buster Bailey and Garvin Bushell both recalled recording with Katie Crippen.
          >
          > I can see no reason to think that the labels lie in naming Henderson (though
          > it is certainly true that some Black Swans credited to Henderson are by
          > others, so this is not conclusive.)
          >
          > Takes are complicated by the existence of two distinct issues of Black Swan
          > 2003 (one with the title of matrix P104 as Sing ŒEm, etc., and one with the
          > title as Play ŒEm, etc.) which show the takes in a different format. There
          > are certainly two takes of this master on different copies of the Black
          > Swan, but it appears that all Play ŒEm¹s are ­2, while Sing ŒEm can be ­1 or
          > ­2.
          >
          > I guessed that Bruynincx¹s P-104-4 was just a typo and this is confirmed
          > because he has corrected it to ­1 & -2 in the current CD-R edition. Which
          > edition are you using?
          >
          > P-103 (Blind Man) is always take ­2. Take ­3 has been reported in the past
          > but has never been seen by serious scholars and Helge Thygesen¹s Black Swan
          > study doesn¹t even consider it. Early 78 collectors were often very confused
          > about distinguishing takes from pressing codes, stamper numbers and other
          > numbers put into the run-off areas of discs by and for technicians.
          >
          > At the end of the day the only way to be sure of takes is to listen to them
          > and establish actual differences. Unfortunately I don¹t seem to have done
          > P-104. Document claim to have issued both takes ­1 on DOCD5602, -2 on
          > DOCD5342, as you say. One of these days!
          >
          > on 10/06/2008 10:25, Agustín Pérez at ekebbbapg@...
          > <mailto:ekebbbapg%40yahoo.es> wrote:
          >
          >> >
          >> >
          >> >
          >> > Both Katie Crippen sessions for Black Swan (February or March 1921 &
          >> > June 1921) are listed as by Katie Crippen accompanied by Henderson's
          >> > Novelty Orchestra.
          >> >
          >> > However, there is some controversy between Rust and Bruyninckx (both
          >> > last editions, CD) on who's playing piano on each date:
          >> >
          >> > -Rust lists Fletcher Henderson for the Feb/Mar date (Blind Man's
          >> > Blues / Sing'em For Mamma, Play'em For Me), while Bruyninckx lists
          >> > Willie Gant.
          >> >
          >> > -On the other hand, Rust lists Willie Gant for the June recording
          >> > session (That's My Cup Blues / When It's Too Late), while Bruyninckx
          >> > lists Fletcher Henderson.
          >> >
          >> > My copy of Document CD DOCD-5342 "Fletcher Henderson & The Blues
          >> > Singers, Volume 1" lists Henderson on both dates.
          >> >
          >> > Now, the second question:
          >> >
          >> > -Rust lists just one take for "Sing'em Mamma, Play'em For Me" (P-104-
          >> > 2), listed as "Play'em For Mama, Sing'em For Me" and issued first on
          >> > Black Swan 2003...
          >> >
          >> > -...while Bruyninckx shows two different takes, P-104-1 and P-104-4,
          >> > though he lists both as issued on Black Swan 2003!
          >> >
          >> > Document DOCD-5342 lists take 2, following Rust (though correcting
          >> > the tune title), but I have find in the online LoC catalog that
          >> > Document DOCD-5602 "Classic Blues, Jazz & Vaudeville Singers, Volume
          >> > 2, 1920-1926" includes a take 1.
          >> >
          >> > Could anybody shed some light on these two different queries?
          >> >
          >> > Thanks in advance!
          >> >
          >> > Agustín Pérez
          >> > Madrid (Spain)
          >
          > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
          > howard@... <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk>
          > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
          >>> howard@...
          >>> Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
          >>>



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Agustin Perez Gasco
          Thanks a lot, Howard. As always, you ve been of great help! This deletes one session from the very tiny Willie Gant recorded legacy. I couldn t do the aural
          Message 4 of 5 , Jun 10, 2008
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            Thanks a lot, Howard. As always, you've been of great help!

            This deletes one session from the very tiny Willie Gant recorded legacy.

            I couldn't do the aural verification so far, as it was just yesterday when I discovered that Document claimed to have issued two different takes.

            Regards,
            Agustín

            Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
            Any excuse not to do what I should be doing.

            There are certainly two aurally distinct takes on Document. The differences
            are not very great. The easiest way to be sure they¹re different is by the
            fourth line of the chanted passage with piano accompaniment in the middle.

            On take ­1 on DOCD5602 this is:

            Oh, play it for your mama till the cows come home.

            Take ­2 on DOCD5342 starts straight in with

            Play it for your mama till the cows come home.

            ³It² is a music roll, and if you believe that you must be in kindergarden!

            on 10/06/2008 12:51, Howard Rye at howard@... wrote:

            >
            >
            >
            > In this instance, Bruyninckx is using the best source, which is Walter
            > Allen¹s Hendersonia. He lists Henderson for both dates. Therefore Blues &
            > Gospel Records lists Henderson, because we always follow Hendersonia unless
            > there is a very good reason indeed not to, and Walter Bruyninkcx has copied
            > it from us (or conceivably directly from Hendersonia, but why would he
            > bother?).
            >
            > Buster Bailey and Garvin Bushell both recalled recording with Katie Crippen.
            >
            > I can see no reason to think that the labels lie in naming Henderson (though
            > it is certainly true that some Black Swans credited to Henderson are by
            > others, so this is not conclusive.)
            >
            > Takes are complicated by the existence of two distinct issues of Black Swan
            > 2003 (one with the title of matrix P104 as Sing ŒEm, etc., and one with the
            > title as Play ŒEm, etc.) which show the takes in a different format. There
            > are certainly two takes of this master on different copies of the Black
            > Swan, but it appears that all Play ŒEm¹s are ­2, while Sing ŒEm can be ­1 or
            > ­2.
            >
            > I guessed that Bruynincx¹s P-104-4 was just a typo and this is confirmed
            > because he has corrected it to ­1 & -2 in the current CD-R edition. Which
            > edition are you using?
            >
            > P-103 (Blind Man) is always take ­2. Take ­3 has been reported in the past
            > but has never been seen by serious scholars and Helge Thygesen¹s Black Swan
            > study doesn¹t even consider it. Early 78 collectors were often very confused
            > about distinguishing takes from pressing codes, stamper numbers and other
            > numbers put into the run-off areas of discs by and for technicians.
            >
            > At the end of the day the only way to be sure of takes is to listen to them
            > and establish actual differences. Unfortunately I don¹t seem to have done
            > P-104. Document claim to have issued both takes ­1 on DOCD5602, -2 on
            > DOCD5342, as you say. One of these days!
            >
            > on 10/06/2008 10:25, Agustín Pérez at ekebbbapg@...
            > <mailto:ekebbbapg%40yahoo.es> wrote:
            >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > Both Katie Crippen sessions for Black Swan (February or March 1921 &
            >> > June 1921) are listed as by Katie Crippen accompanied by Henderson's
            >> > Novelty Orchestra.
            >> >
            >> > However, there is some controversy between Rust and Bruyninckx (both
            >> > last editions, CD) on who's playing piano on each date:
            >> >
            >> > -Rust lists Fletcher Henderson for the Feb/Mar date (Blind Man's
            >> > Blues / Sing'em For Mamma, Play'em For Me), while Bruyninckx lists
            >> > Willie Gant.
            >> >
            >> > -On the other hand, Rust lists Willie Gant for the June recording
            >> > session (That's My Cup Blues / When It's Too Late), while Bruyninckx
            >> > lists Fletcher Henderson.
            >> >
            >> > My copy of Document CD DOCD-5342 "Fletcher Henderson & The Blues
            >> > Singers, Volume 1" lists Henderson on both dates.
            >> >
            >> > Now, the second question:
            >> >
            >> > -Rust lists just one take for "Sing'em Mamma, Play'em For Me" (P-104-
            >> > 2), listed as "Play'em For Mama, Sing'em For Me" and issued first on
            >> > Black Swan 2003...
            >> >
            >> > -...while Bruyninckx shows two different takes, P-104-1 and P-104-4,
            >> > though he lists both as issued on Black Swan 2003!
            >> >
            >> > Document DOCD-5342 lists take 2, following Rust (though correcting
            >> > the tune title), but I have find in the online LoC catalog that
            >> > Document DOCD-5602 "Classic Blues, Jazz & Vaudeville Singers, Volume
            >> > 2, 1920-1926" includes a take 1.
            >> >
            >> > Could anybody shed some light on these two different queries?
            >> >
            >> > Thanks in advance!
            >> >
            >> > Agustín Pérez
            >> > Madrid (Spain)
            >
            > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
            > howard@... <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk>
            > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >>>
            >>>
            >>> Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
            >>> howard@...
            >>> Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
            >>>

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • rwondraschek
            Hi Howard, & all! As it was myself who was responsible for making sure that all alternative takes issued by Document Records (after issue 5572) are indeed
            Message 5 of 5 , May 10 6:02 AM
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              Hi Howard, & all!

              As it was myself who was responsible for making sure that all alternative takes issued by Document Records (after issue 5572) are indeed aurally different from each other, I spent quite some time listening to the recordings and actually documented the differences to be heard (musical and/or textual), and that was all sent to Johnny Parth.
              Rest assured that all alternative takes issued by Document Records after 5572 are indeed aurally diffetent.

              Best wishes,

              Ralph Wondraschek, Heidelberg, Germany


              --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
              >
              > Any excuse not to do what I should be doing.
              >
              > There are certainly two aurally distinct takes on Document. The differences
              > are not very great. The easiest way to be sure they¹re different is by the
              > fourth line of the chanted passage with piano accompaniment in the middle.
              >
              > On take ­1 on DOCD5602 this is:
              >
              > Oh, play it for your mama till the cows come home.
              >
              > Take ­2 on DOCD5342 starts straight in with
              >
              > Play it for your mama till the cows come home.
              >
              > ³It² is a music roll, and if you believe that you must be in kindergarden!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > on 10/06/2008 12:51, Howard Rye at howard@... wrote:
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > In this instance, Bruyninckx is using the best source, which is Walter
              > > Allen¹s Hendersonia. He lists Henderson for both dates. Therefore Blues &
              > > Gospel Records lists Henderson, because we always follow Hendersonia unless
              > > there is a very good reason indeed not to, and Walter Bruyninkcx has copied
              > > it from us (or conceivably directly from Hendersonia, but why would he
              > > bother?).
              > >
              > > Buster Bailey and Garvin Bushell both recalled recording with Katie Crippen.
              > >
              > > I can see no reason to think that the labels lie in naming Henderson (though
              > > it is certainly true that some Black Swans credited to Henderson are by
              > > others, so this is not conclusive.)
              > >
              > > Takes are complicated by the existence of two distinct issues of Black Swan
              > > 2003 (one with the title of matrix P104 as Sing ŒEm, etc., and one with the
              > > title as Play ŒEm, etc.) which show the takes in a different format. There
              > > are certainly two takes of this master on different copies of the Black
              > > Swan, but it appears that all Play ŒEm¹s are ­2, while Sing ŒEm can be ­1 or
              > > ­2.
              > >
              > > I guessed that Bruynincx¹s P-104-4 was just a typo and this is confirmed
              > > because he has corrected it to ­1 & -2 in the current CD-R edition. Which
              > > edition are you using?
              > >
              > > P-103 (Blind Man) is always take ­2. Take ­3 has been reported in the past
              > > but has never been seen by serious scholars and Helge Thygesen¹s Black Swan
              > > study doesn¹t even consider it. Early 78 collectors were often very confused
              > > about distinguishing takes from pressing codes, stamper numbers and other
              > > numbers put into the run-off areas of discs by and for technicians.
              > >
              > > At the end of the day the only way to be sure of takes is to listen to them
              > > and establish actual differences. Unfortunately I don¹t seem to have done
              > > P-104. Document claim to have issued both takes ­1 on DOCD5602, -2 on
              > > DOCD5342, as you say. One of these days!
              > >
              > > on 10/06/2008 10:25, Agustín Pérez at ekebbbapg@...
              > > <mailto:ekebbbapg%40yahoo.es> wrote:
              > >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> > Both Katie Crippen sessions for Black Swan (February or March 1921 &
              > >> > June 1921) are listed as by Katie Crippen accompanied by Henderson's
              > >> > Novelty Orchestra.
              > >> >
              > >> > However, there is some controversy between Rust and Bruyninckx (both
              > >> > last editions, CD) on who's playing piano on each date:
              > >> >
              > >> > -Rust lists Fletcher Henderson for the Feb/Mar date (Blind Man's
              > >> > Blues / Sing'em For Mamma, Play'em For Me), while Bruyninckx lists
              > >> > Willie Gant.
              > >> >
              > >> > -On the other hand, Rust lists Willie Gant for the June recording
              > >> > session (That's My Cup Blues / When It's Too Late), while Bruyninckx
              > >> > lists Fletcher Henderson.
              > >> >
              > >> > My copy of Document CD DOCD-5342 "Fletcher Henderson & The Blues
              > >> > Singers, Volume 1" lists Henderson on both dates.
              > >> >
              > >> > Now, the second question:
              > >> >
              > >> > -Rust lists just one take for "Sing'em Mamma, Play'em For Me" (P-104-
              > >> > 2), listed as "Play'em For Mama, Sing'em For Me" and issued first on
              > >> > Black Swan 2003...
              > >> >
              > >> > -...while Bruyninckx shows two different takes, P-104-1 and P-104-4,
              > >> > though he lists both as issued on Black Swan 2003!
              > >> >
              > >> > Document DOCD-5342 lists take 2, following Rust (though correcting
              > >> > the tune title), but I have find in the online LoC catalog that
              > >> > Document DOCD-5602 "Classic Blues, Jazz & Vaudeville Singers, Volume
              > >> > 2, 1920-1926" includes a take 1.
              > >> >
              > >> > Could anybody shed some light on these two different queries?
              > >> >
              > >> > Thanks in advance!
              > >> >
              > >> > Agustín Pérez
              > >> > Madrid (Spain)
              > >
              > > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
              > > howard@... <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk>
              > > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>> Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
              > >>> howard@...
              > >>> Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
              > >>>
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
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