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RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: Jazz multi-instrumentalists?

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  • Ron L
    Doubling, as it is called, is not unusual in band settings. Reed players play the whole family of reeds sometimes and others may even double on trumpet,
    Message 1 of 15 , Apr 25, 2008
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      Doubling, as it is called, is not unusual in band settings. Reed players
      play the whole family of reeds sometimes and others may even double on
      trumpet, trombone or banjo. Brass players double on other brass instruments
      too. I'm sure other listers can come up with specific names. I've been
      told, although I don't remember seeing it myself that there is film of Jack
      Teagarden doubling on something in the xylophone/vibes family.

      Ron L

      -----Original Message-----
      From: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Tommer
      Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 4:03 PM
      To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: Jazz multi-instrumentalists?

      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Tommer" <tommersl@...> wrote:
      >
      > I'm looking for pre war Jazz multi-instrumentalists, what I mean
      are
      > artists that were leaders in more than one instrument. For
      instance,
      > Lonnie Johnson who was one of the leaders guitarists and violinists
      and
      > harmoniumists of his time. He also was influential vocalist, but I
      > don't want to count the vocals.
      >
      > tommer
      >

      Maybe motivation is needed. What I'm up to is to see whether
      multiinstrumentalism was integral part of the 1920's or was it some
      sort of freelancers thing, musicians were mostly using one major
      instrument, and freelancing and filling in with other instruments
      that were required for others.

      That might also imply the profile of the 1920's multi-
      instrumentalist, folk music background, family band that family
      members were switching instruments.

      For the freelancing example there is the example of James Rushing
      that told about Jelly Roll Morton playing drums while he was playing
      the piano!

      And for the family multi-instrumentalists, Lonnie Johnson, or even
      the weird George Morrison story.

      tommer


      ------------------------------------

      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • Dan Van Landingham
      As far as doubling is concerned,I started to learn some of the other brass instruments some 43 years ago.I started out on cornet then switched to the E-flat
      Message 2 of 15 , Apr 25, 2008
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        As far as doubling is concerned,I started to learn some of the other brass instruments some
        43 years ago.I started out on cornet then switched to the E-flat tuba in late 1964.I later lear-
        ned the BBb tuba a couple of years later.I learned slide trombone at 14 then,at 16,learned
        the clarinet followed by the tenor sax in late 1968.My first sax was an old Buescher C Mel-
        ody that was given to me.When I was on college,I decided to let those who were better
        trumpeters that I do that.I switched over to baritone sax and I played that instrument from
        time to time.From time to time,I did play either alto or tenor sax in various concert and stage
        bands starting as a trumpeter in 1968.My lip on tuba is gone;I got a phone call from a band
        director here back in 1972 when he learned I had played tuba in the school orchestra when
        my alma mater,North Bend High School in North Bend,Oregon(this was in early 1970).I
        made a couple of rehearsals but my lip on the instrument never came back.What was odd
        was that I hadn't played slide trombone since the early to mid '70s.A friend of mine,who is
        a trombonist sold me an old Conn Director for $30 and I got to playing it and my lip came
        back.I have a friend in Washington State who was a doubler as well.His first instrument is
        the trombone but doubled trumpet as well as baritone sax.He felt that doubling was thera-
        putic to his lip and he was right.I used to have a very flexable lip and I could play pedal to-
        nes on tuba.The catch to this was I had to practise longer on my trumpet just to keep my
        lip up.I once met a trumpeter(back in 1971)who was in the studios for years and was doi-
        ng studio work at the time.He told me to quit doubling trombone and he did have someth-
        ing of a point:whatever instrument I doubled,I had to work twice as hard to keep my lip up
        on trumpet.Tommy Dorsey,for all his abilities,was never as good on trumpet as he was on
        trombone.Benny Carter,however,surprised me:I once heard him on trombone and he was
        quite good.His sound on trumpet was a bit thin.As for his abilities on clarinet,he needed to
        work harder on that instrument.Getting back to Dorsey,his sound on trumpet was rather
        "shakey".For me,I had little trouble switching from alto to tenor sax.What people didn't
        like about my sound on tenor sax,for example,was that my sound on tenor was too much
        like Coleman Hawkins for them.My sound on alto was too much like Benny Carter for
        their liking.I ignored them,especially after Scott Hamilton came along.He made a name for
        himself and I didn't.Still,I wouldn't change a thing about my sound on either sax.That's my
        opinion for what it's worth.

        Ron L <lherault@...> wrote:
        Doubling, as it is called, is not unusual in band settings. Reed players
        play the whole family of reeds sometimes and others may even double on
        trumpet, trombone or banjo. Brass players double on other brass instruments
        too. I'm sure other listers can come up with specific names. I've been
        told, although I don't remember seeing it myself that there is film of Jack
        Teagarden doubling on something in the xylophone/vibes family.

        Ron L

        -----Original Message-----
        From: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of Tommer
        Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 4:03 PM
        To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: Jazz multi-instrumentalists?

        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Tommer" <tommersl@...> wrote:
        >
        > I'm looking for pre war Jazz multi-instrumentalists, what I mean
        are
        > artists that were leaders in more than one instrument. For
        instance,
        > Lonnie Johnson who was one of the leaders guitarists and violinists
        and
        > harmoniumists of his time. He also was influential vocalist, but I
        > don't want to count the vocals.
        >
        > tommer
        >

        Maybe motivation is needed. What I'm up to is to see whether
        multiinstrumentalism was integral part of the 1920's or was it some
        sort of freelancers thing, musicians were mostly using one major
        instrument, and freelancing and filling in with other instruments
        that were required for others.

        That might also imply the profile of the 1920's multi-
        instrumentalist, folk music background, family band that family
        members were switching instruments.

        For the freelancing example there is the example of James Rushing
        that told about Jelly Roll Morton playing drums while he was playing
        the piano!

        And for the family multi-instrumentalists, Lonnie Johnson, or even
        the weird George Morrison story.

        tommer

        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links






        ---------------------------------
        Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Tommer
        Thank you very much for I enjoyed reading this post very much and learned from it. At some point soloist are mastering an instrument s sound in such a way that
        Message 3 of 15 , Apr 25, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Thank you very much for I enjoyed reading this post very much and
          learned from it.

          At some point soloist are mastering an instrument's sound in such a
          way that most anyone who hear an instrument on the surface he will
          link it to those artists, though when listening in depth the
          differences are quite obvious, especially unique improvisations of
          artists, but because, maybe the tone and other surface elements it
          goes like that that people are confusing different artists.

          The rise of the importance of tone was part of what put an end to the
          New Orleans swinging era IMO. And Louis Armstrong is perhaps a good
          example because he had both the swinging and the tone and as time
          went by he focused more on tone than improvising IMO.

          I notived as an example that many of the influence-chains in books
          are more because the surface tone than what musicians are really
          doing in the core, the way they swing and improvise, their best
          melodys improvisations, the syncopations they prefer and etc. So it
          seems like everybody from Bubber Miley to Jabo Smith is influenced by
          Oliver, or Armstrong on books, however, just because sometimes the
          tone sounds very similar, especially when the plunger mute is used.

          Personally I thought I like Tommy Dorsey on trumpet, but maybe I
          confused him in my mind for Jimmy Dorsey. Tommy and Jimmy Dorsey are
          good examples of multi-instrumentalist. Perhaps the folk/vaudeville
          roots are part of it? Benny Carter seems to me was of the freelance
          type of multi-instrumentalist or maybe because he arranged a lot,
          Eddie Durham was another arranger and durham was quite groundbreaking
          both on guitar and trombone, although he wasn't really a master of
          any of those.
          tommer

          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Dan Van Landingham
          <danvanlandingham@...> wrote:
          >
          > As far as doubling is concerned,I started to learn some of the
          other brass instruments some
          > 43 years ago.I started out on cornet then switched to the E-flat
          tuba in late 1964.I later lear-
          > ned the BBb tuba a couple of years later.I learned slide trombone
          at 14 then,at 16,learned
          > the clarinet followed by the tenor sax in late 1968.My first sax
          was an old Buescher C Mel-
          > ody that was given to me.When I was on college,I decided to let
          those who were better
          > trumpeters that I do that.I switched over to baritone sax and I
          played that instrument from
          > time to time.From time to time,I did play either alto or tenor
          sax in various concert and stage
          > bands starting as a trumpeter in 1968.My lip on tuba is gone;I
          got a phone call from a band
          > director here back in 1972 when he learned I had played tuba in
          the school orchestra when
          > my alma mater,North Bend High School in North Bend,Oregon(this
          was in early 1970).I
          > made a couple of rehearsals but my lip on the instrument never
          came back.What was odd
          > was that I hadn't played slide trombone since the early to
          mid '70s.A friend of mine,who is
          > a trombonist sold me an old Conn Director for $30 and I got to
          playing it and my lip came
          > back.I have a friend in Washington State who was a doubler as
          well.His first instrument is
          > the trombone but doubled trumpet as well as baritone sax.He felt
          that doubling was thera-
          > putic to his lip and he was right.I used to have a very flexable
          lip and I could play pedal to-
          > nes on tuba.The catch to this was I had to practise longer on my
          trumpet just to keep my
          > lip up.I once met a trumpeter(back in 1971)who was in the studios
          for years and was doi-
          > ng studio work at the time.He told me to quit doubling trombone
          and he did have someth-
          > ing of a point:whatever instrument I doubled,I had to work twice
          as hard to keep my lip up
          > on trumpet.Tommy Dorsey,for all his abilities,was never as good
          on trumpet as he was on
          > trombone.Benny Carter,however,surprised me:I once heard him on
          trombone and he was
          > quite good.His sound on trumpet was a bit thin.As for his
          abilities on clarinet,he needed to
          > work harder on that instrument.Getting back to Dorsey,his sound
          on trumpet was rather
          > "shakey".For me,I had little trouble switching from alto to tenor
          sax.What people didn't
          > like about my sound on tenor sax,for example,was that my sound on
          tenor was too much
          > like Coleman Hawkins for them.My sound on alto was too much like
          Benny Carter for
          > their liking.I ignored them,especially after Scott Hamilton came
          along.He made a name for
          > himself and I didn't.Still,I wouldn't change a thing about my
          sound on either sax.That's my
          > opinion for what it's worth.
          >
          > Ron L <lherault@...> wrote:
          > Doubling, as it is called, is not unusual in band
          settings. Reed players
          > play the whole family of reeds sometimes and others may even double
          on
          > trumpet, trombone or banjo. Brass players double on other brass
          instruments
          > too. I'm sure other listers can come up with specific names. I've
          been
          > told, although I don't remember seeing it myself that there is film
          of Jack
          > Teagarden doubling on something in the xylophone/vibes family.
          >
          > Ron L
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com] On
          > Behalf Of Tommer
          > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 4:03 PM
          > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: Jazz multi-instrumentalists?
          >
          > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Tommer" <tommersl@> wrote:
          > >
          > > I'm looking for pre war Jazz multi-instrumentalists, what I mean
          > are
          > > artists that were leaders in more than one instrument. For
          > instance,
          > > Lonnie Johnson who was one of the leaders guitarists and
          violinists
          > and
          > > harmoniumists of his time. He also was influential vocalist, but
          I
          > > don't want to count the vocals.
          > >
          > > tommer
          > >
          >
          > Maybe motivation is needed. What I'm up to is to see whether
          > multiinstrumentalism was integral part of the 1920's or was it some
          > sort of freelancers thing, musicians were mostly using one major
          > instrument, and freelancing and filling in with other instruments
          > that were required for others.
          >
          > That might also imply the profile of the 1920's multi-
          > instrumentalist, folk music background, family band that family
          > members were switching instruments.
          >
          > For the freelancing example there is the example of James Rushing
          > that told about Jelly Roll Morton playing drums while he was
          playing
          > the piano!
          >
          > And for the family multi-instrumentalists, Lonnie Johnson, or even
          > the weird George Morrison story.
          >
          > tommer
          >
        • Dan Van Landingham
          To add to my previous blog:I learned to play on an old pump organ back in 1961.When I was in my early twenties,I learned guitar and bass guitar.I perform,from
          Message 4 of 15 , Apr 25, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            To add to my previous blog:I learned to play on an old pump organ back in 1961.When I was in my early twenties,I learned guitar and bass guitar.I perform,from time to time,as a
            guitarist and was a professional electric bass player,trumpeter and saxophonist back in
            1973.I once tried the accordion but it wasn't my instrument.I left that to my late uncle Da-
            ve Morgan who was another multi-instrumentalist(piano,accordion and trumpet).His older
            sisters were also doublers:both played tenor guitar,mandolin,piano and violin.I heard my
            late aunt Isabel play violin and she had a nice sound.Violin is another instrument I played
            but my fingers are stiff now.I haven't touched it in years.

            Tommer <tommersl@...> wrote:
            Thank you very much for I enjoyed reading this post very much and
            learned from it.

            At some point soloist are mastering an instrument's sound in such a
            way that most anyone who hear an instrument on the surface he will
            link it to those artists, though when listening in depth the
            differences are quite obvious, especially unique improvisations of
            artists, but because, maybe the tone and other surface elements it
            goes like that that people are confusing different artists.

            The rise of the importance of tone was part of what put an end to the
            New Orleans swinging era IMO. And Louis Armstrong is perhaps a good
            example because he had both the swinging and the tone and as time
            went by he focused more on tone than improvising IMO.

            I notived as an example that many of the influence-chains in books
            are more because the surface tone than what musicians are really
            doing in the core, the way they swing and improvise, their best
            melodys improvisations, the syncopations they prefer and etc. So it
            seems like everybody from Bubber Miley to Jabo Smith is influenced by
            Oliver, or Armstrong on books, however, just because sometimes the
            tone sounds very similar, especially when the plunger mute is used.

            Personally I thought I like Tommy Dorsey on trumpet, but maybe I
            confused him in my mind for Jimmy Dorsey. Tommy and Jimmy Dorsey are
            good examples of multi-instrumentalist. Perhaps the folk/vaudeville
            roots are part of it? Benny Carter seems to me was of the freelance
            type of multi-instrumentalist or maybe because he arranged a lot,
            Eddie Durham was another arranger and durham was quite groundbreaking
            both on guitar and trombone, although he wasn't really a master of
            any of those.
            tommer

            --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Dan Van Landingham
            <danvanlandingham@...> wrote:
            >
            > As far as doubling is concerned,I started to learn some of the
            other brass instruments some
            > 43 years ago.I started out on cornet then switched to the E-flat
            tuba in late 1964.I later lear-
            > ned the BBb tuba a couple of years later.I learned slide trombone
            at 14 then,at 16,learned
            > the clarinet followed by the tenor sax in late 1968.My first sax
            was an old Buescher C Mel-
            > ody that was given to me.When I was on college,I decided to let
            those who were better
            > trumpeters that I do that.I switched over to baritone sax and I
            played that instrument from
            > time to time.From time to time,I did play either alto or tenor
            sax in various concert and stage
            > bands starting as a trumpeter in 1968.My lip on tuba is gone;I
            got a phone call from a band
            > director here back in 1972 when he learned I had played tuba in
            the school orchestra when
            > my alma mater,North Bend High School in North Bend,Oregon(this
            was in early 1970).I
            > made a couple of rehearsals but my lip on the instrument never
            came back.What was odd
            > was that I hadn't played slide trombone since the early to
            mid '70s.A friend of mine,who is
            > a trombonist sold me an old Conn Director for $30 and I got to
            playing it and my lip came
            > back.I have a friend in Washington State who was a doubler as
            well.His first instrument is
            > the trombone but doubled trumpet as well as baritone sax.He felt
            that doubling was thera-
            > putic to his lip and he was right.I used to have a very flexable
            lip and I could play pedal to-
            > nes on tuba.The catch to this was I had to practise longer on my
            trumpet just to keep my
            > lip up.I once met a trumpeter(back in 1971)who was in the studios
            for years and was doi-
            > ng studio work at the time.He told me to quit doubling trombone
            and he did have someth-
            > ing of a point:whatever instrument I doubled,I had to work twice
            as hard to keep my lip up
            > on trumpet.Tommy Dorsey,for all his abilities,was never as good
            on trumpet as he was on
            > trombone.Benny Carter,however,surprised me:I once heard him on
            trombone and he was
            > quite good.His sound on trumpet was a bit thin.As for his
            abilities on clarinet,he needed to
            > work harder on that instrument.Getting back to Dorsey,his sound
            on trumpet was rather
            > "shakey".For me,I had little trouble switching from alto to tenor
            sax.What people didn't
            > like about my sound on tenor sax,for example,was that my sound on
            tenor was too much
            > like Coleman Hawkins for them.My sound on alto was too much like
            Benny Carter for
            > their liking.I ignored them,especially after Scott Hamilton came
            along.He made a name for
            > himself and I didn't.Still,I wouldn't change a thing about my
            sound on either sax.That's my
            > opinion for what it's worth.
            >
            > Ron L <lherault@...> wrote:
            > Doubling, as it is called, is not unusual in band
            settings. Reed players
            > play the whole family of reeds sometimes and others may even double
            on
            > trumpet, trombone or banjo. Brass players double on other brass
            instruments
            > too. I'm sure other listers can come up with specific names. I've
            been
            > told, although I don't remember seeing it myself that there is film
            of Jack
            > Teagarden doubling on something in the xylophone/vibes family.
            >
            > Ron L
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com] On
            > Behalf Of Tommer
            > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 4:03 PM
            > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: Jazz multi-instrumentalists?
            >
            > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Tommer" <tommersl@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I'm looking for pre war Jazz multi-instrumentalists, what I mean
            > are
            > > artists that were leaders in more than one instrument. For
            > instance,
            > > Lonnie Johnson who was one of the leaders guitarists and
            violinists
            > and
            > > harmoniumists of his time. He also was influential vocalist, but
            I
            > > don't want to count the vocals.
            > >
            > > tommer
            > >
            >
            > Maybe motivation is needed. What I'm up to is to see whether
            > multiinstrumentalism was integral part of the 1920's or was it some
            > sort of freelancers thing, musicians were mostly using one major
            > instrument, and freelancing and filling in with other instruments
            > that were required for others.
            >
            > That might also imply the profile of the 1920's multi-
            > instrumentalist, folk music background, family band that family
            > members were switching instruments.
            >
            > For the freelancing example there is the example of James Rushing
            > that told about Jelly Roll Morton playing drums while he was
            playing
            > the piano!
            >
            > And for the family multi-instrumentalists, Lonnie Johnson, or even
            > the weird George Morrison story.
            >
            > tommer
            >






            ---------------------------------
            Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Albert Haim
            The great Adrian Rollini played a whole bunch of instruments: bass sax, piano, goofus, hot fountain pen, celeste, vibraphone, xylophone. The redhotjazz site
            Message 5 of 15 , Apr 25, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              The great Adrian Rollini played a whole bunch of instruments: bass
              sax, piano, goofus, hot fountain pen, celeste, vibraphone, xylophone.

              The redhotjazz site has the following about Sidney Bechet's One-Man
              Band, New York, April 18, 1941, Victor 27485.

              "This is a strange record. The Sheik Of Araby is an early example of
              multi-track recording. Sidney Bechet was at the RCA studios on April
              18th, 1941 (before tape) and the engineers fiddled with some early
              multiple recordings. This is the result. Record an instrument, play
              the record back while he played another instrument along with the
              record, ad nauseum - the first ones recorded sounding worse each time
              another record is made. Clarinet, soprano saxophone, tenor saxophone,
              piano, bass and drums, all played by Bechet. If you can hear the
              drums, you win a cigar."

              Brian Rust lists Bechet also playing string bass in the recording of
              The Sheik of Araby mentioned in the redhotjazz site.

              I was not uncommon for sax players to double on violin.

              Albert

              --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Dan Van Landingham
              <danvanlandingham@...> wrote:
              >
              > To add to my previous blog:I learned to play on an old pump organ
              back in 1961.When I was in my early twenties,I learned guitar and bass
              guitar.I perform,from time to time,as a
              > guitarist and was a professional electric bass player,trumpeter
              and saxophonist back in
              > 1973.I once tried the accordion but it wasn't my instrument.I left
              that to my late uncle Da-
              > ve Morgan who was another multi-instrumentalist(piano,accordion
              and trumpet).His older
              > sisters were also doublers:both played tenor guitar,mandolin,piano
              and violin.I heard my
              > late aunt Isabel play violin and she had a nice sound.Violin is
              another instrument I played
              > but my fingers are stiff now.I haven't touched it in years.
              >
              > Tommer <tommersl@...> wrote:
              > Thank you very much for I enjoyed reading this post very
              much and
              > learned from it.
              >
              > At some point soloist are mastering an instrument's sound in such a
              > way that most anyone who hear an instrument on the surface he will
              > link it to those artists, though when listening in depth the
              > differences are quite obvious, especially unique improvisations of
              > artists, but because, maybe the tone and other surface elements it
              > goes like that that people are confusing different artists.
              >
              > The rise of the importance of tone was part of what put an end to the
              > New Orleans swinging era IMO. And Louis Armstrong is perhaps a good
              > example because he had both the swinging and the tone and as time
              > went by he focused more on tone than improvising IMO.
              >
              > I notived as an example that many of the influence-chains in books
              > are more because the surface tone than what musicians are really
              > doing in the core, the way they swing and improvise, their best
              > melodys improvisations, the syncopations they prefer and etc. So it
              > seems like everybody from Bubber Miley to Jabo Smith is influenced by
              > Oliver, or Armstrong on books, however, just because sometimes the
              > tone sounds very similar, especially when the plunger mute is used.
              >
              > Personally I thought I like Tommy Dorsey on trumpet, but maybe I
              > confused him in my mind for Jimmy Dorsey. Tommy and Jimmy Dorsey are
              > good examples of multi-instrumentalist. Perhaps the folk/vaudeville
              > roots are part of it? Benny Carter seems to me was of the freelance
              > type of multi-instrumentalist or maybe because he arranged a lot,
              > Eddie Durham was another arranger and durham was quite groundbreaking
              > both on guitar and trombone, although he wasn't really a master of
              > any of those.
              > tommer
              >
              > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Dan Van Landingham
              > <danvanlandingham@> wrote:
              > >
              > > As far as doubling is concerned,I started to learn some of the
              > other brass instruments some
              > > 43 years ago.I started out on cornet then switched to the E-flat
              > tuba in late 1964.I later lear-
              > > ned the BBb tuba a couple of years later.I learned slide trombone
              > at 14 then,at 16,learned
              > > the clarinet followed by the tenor sax in late 1968.My first sax
              > was an old Buescher C Mel-
              > > ody that was given to me.When I was on college,I decided to let
              > those who were better
              > > trumpeters that I do that.I switched over to baritone sax and I
              > played that instrument from
              > > time to time.From time to time,I did play either alto or tenor
              > sax in various concert and stage
              > > bands starting as a trumpeter in 1968.My lip on tuba is gone;I
              > got a phone call from a band
              > > director here back in 1972 when he learned I had played tuba in
              > the school orchestra when
              > > my alma mater,North Bend High School in North Bend,Oregon(this
              > was in early 1970).I
              > > made a couple of rehearsals but my lip on the instrument never
              > came back.What was odd
              > > was that I hadn't played slide trombone since the early to
              > mid '70s.A friend of mine,who is
              > > a trombonist sold me an old Conn Director for $30 and I got to
              > playing it and my lip came
              > > back.I have a friend in Washington State who was a doubler as
              > well.His first instrument is
              > > the trombone but doubled trumpet as well as baritone sax.He felt
              > that doubling was thera-
              > > putic to his lip and he was right.I used to have a very flexable
              > lip and I could play pedal to-
              > > nes on tuba.The catch to this was I had to practise longer on my
              > trumpet just to keep my
              > > lip up.I once met a trumpeter(back in 1971)who was in the studios
              > for years and was doi-
              > > ng studio work at the time.He told me to quit doubling trombone
              > and he did have someth-
              > > ing of a point:whatever instrument I doubled,I had to work twice
              > as hard to keep my lip up
              > > on trumpet.Tommy Dorsey,for all his abilities,was never as good
              > on trumpet as he was on
              > > trombone.Benny Carter,however,surprised me:I once heard him on
              > trombone and he was
              > > quite good.His sound on trumpet was a bit thin.As for his
              > abilities on clarinet,he needed to
              > > work harder on that instrument.Getting back to Dorsey,his sound
              > on trumpet was rather
              > > "shakey".For me,I had little trouble switching from alto to tenor
              > sax.What people didn't
              > > like about my sound on tenor sax,for example,was that my sound on
              > tenor was too much
              > > like Coleman Hawkins for them.My sound on alto was too much like
              > Benny Carter for
              > > their liking.I ignored them,especially after Scott Hamilton came
              > along.He made a name for
              > > himself and I didn't.Still,I wouldn't change a thing about my
              > sound on either sax.That's my
              > > opinion for what it's worth.
              > >
              > > Ron L <lherault@> wrote:
              > > Doubling, as it is called, is not unusual in band
              > settings. Reed players
              > > play the whole family of reeds sometimes and others may even double
              > on
              > > trumpet, trombone or banjo. Brass players double on other brass
              > instruments
              > > too. I'm sure other listers can come up with specific names. I've
              > been
              > > told, although I don't remember seeing it myself that there is film
              > of Jack
              > > Teagarden doubling on something in the xylophone/vibes family.
              > >
              > > Ron L
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com] On
              > > Behalf Of Tommer
              > > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 4:03 PM
              > > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: Jazz multi-instrumentalists?
              > >
              > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Tommer" <tommersl@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I'm looking for pre war Jazz multi-instrumentalists, what I mean
              > > are
              > > > artists that were leaders in more than one instrument. For
              > > instance,
              > > > Lonnie Johnson who was one of the leaders guitarists and
              > violinists
              > > and
              > > > harmoniumists of his time. He also was influential vocalist, but
              > I
              > > > don't want to count the vocals.
              > > >
              > > > tommer
              > > >
              > >
              > > Maybe motivation is needed. What I'm up to is to see whether
              > > multiinstrumentalism was integral part of the 1920's or was it some
              > > sort of freelancers thing, musicians were mostly using one major
              > > instrument, and freelancing and filling in with other instruments
              > > that were required for others.
              > >
              > > That might also imply the profile of the 1920's multi-
              > > instrumentalist, folk music background, family band that family
              > > members were switching instruments.
              > >
              > > For the freelancing example there is the example of James Rushing
              > > that told about Jelly Roll Morton playing drums while he was
              > playing
              > > the piano!
              > >
              > > And for the family multi-instrumentalists, Lonnie Johnson, or even
              > > the weird George Morrison story.
              > >
              > > tommer
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
              Try it now.
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • ikey100
              Bechet s One Man Band record, although quasi-overdubbed, gets at what I think is the only interest in most cases of multi-instrumentalists: the playing of more
              Message 6 of 15 , Apr 26, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Bechet's One Man Band record, although quasi-overdubbed, gets at what
                I think is the only interest in most cases of multi-instrumentalists:
                the playing of more than one instrument during a single tune. Not so
                much simultaneously, as with true one man bands, but rather
                successively. Ray Nance, for example, or Slick Jones' switch from a
                melodic vibe solo to hot drumming on the extended studio version
                of "Honeysuckle Rose".

                But why should one be amazed by professional competency, if perhaps
                not mastery, of several instruments? The basic knowledge of diatonic
                music readily transfers when each instruments' technique is learned,
                and for some instruments, such as sax and clarinet, the fingerings
                are already similar. And rhythmic aptitude is internal, as every good
                dancer proves. There are certainly differences between the touch and
                sustain of an organ to a piano, or technique for tenor guitar vs.
                banjo, for example, and within each instrument's capabilities there
                are nearly limitless stylistic variations, but the musical framework
                is the same.

                Just last night, in Milt Hinton's autobiography "Bass Line", I read
                about the formal training received by he and so many of his childhood
                peers in Chicago. Excellent training in classical, brass band and
                parlor music was common, even if sometimes given informally, and even
                when it might only eventuate in the likes of circus band work. The
                story is the same elsewhere-George Morrison's family in Denver, The
                Jenkins Orphanage, Portia Pittman in Dallas, etc. The aforementioned
                hot drummer Slick Jones studied piano in his provincial youth and
                attended conservatory in New York, yet his image among many fans is
                of an intuitive rhythm ace.

                The formal knowledge of pre-war jazz men is often underestimated,
                whether by ignorance or intention, and perhaps the lesser training of
                some more recent musicians allows reinforcement of this assumption. I
                can see nothing inherent in formal training that "makes people
                believe in" misconceptions about jazz, as Tommers wrote. Perhaps a
                naive desire for early jazz players to fit the "intuitive genuis"
                mold persists some places, but it shouldn't.

                Warren
                --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > The great Adrian Rollini played a whole bunch of instruments: bass
                > sax, piano, goofus, hot fountain pen, celeste, vibraphone,
                xylophone.
                >
                > The redhotjazz site has the following about Sidney Bechet's One-Man
                > Band, New York, April 18, 1941, Victor 27485.
                >
                > "This is a strange record. The Sheik Of Araby is an early example of
                > multi-track recording. Sidney Bechet was at the RCA studios on April
                > 18th, 1941 (before tape) and the engineers fiddled with some early
                > multiple recordings. This is the result. Record an instrument, play
                > the record back while he played another instrument along with the
                > record, ad nauseum - the first ones recorded sounding worse each
                time
                > another record is made. Clarinet, soprano saxophone, tenor
                saxophone,
                > piano, bass and drums, all played by Bechet. If you can hear the
                > drums, you win a cigar."
                >
                > Brian Rust lists Bechet also playing string bass in the recording of
                > The Sheik of Araby mentioned in the redhotjazz site.
                >
                > I was not uncommon for sax players to double on violin.
                >
                > Albert
                >
                > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Dan Van Landingham
                > <danvanlandingham@> wrote:
                > >
                > > To add to my previous blog:I learned to play on an old pump organ
                > back in 1961.When I was in my early twenties,I learned guitar and
                bass
                > guitar.I perform,from time to time,as a
                > > guitarist and was a professional electric bass player,trumpeter
                > and saxophonist back in
                > > 1973.I once tried the accordion but it wasn't my instrument.I
                left
                > that to my late uncle Da-
                > > ve Morgan who was another multi-instrumentalist(piano,accordion
                > and trumpet).His older
                > > sisters were also doublers:both played tenor
                guitar,mandolin,piano
                > and violin.I heard my
                > > late aunt Isabel play violin and she had a nice sound.Violin is
                > another instrument I played
                > > but my fingers are stiff now.I haven't touched it in years.
                > >
                > > Tommer <tommersl@> wrote:
                > > Thank you very much for I enjoyed reading this post very
                > much and
                > > learned from it.
                > >
                > > At some point soloist are mastering an instrument's sound in such
                a
                > > way that most anyone who hear an instrument on the surface he
                will
                > > link it to those artists, though when listening in depth the
                > > differences are quite obvious, especially unique improvisations
                of
                > > artists, but because, maybe the tone and other surface elements
                it
                > > goes like that that people are confusing different artists.
                > >
                > > The rise of the importance of tone was part of what put an end to
                the
                > > New Orleans swinging era IMO. And Louis Armstrong is perhaps a
                good
                > > example because he had both the swinging and the tone and as time
                > > went by he focused more on tone than improvising IMO.
                > >
                > > I notived as an example that many of the influence-chains in
                books
                > > are more because the surface tone than what musicians are really
                > > doing in the core, the way they swing and improvise, their best
                > > melodys improvisations, the syncopations they prefer and etc. So
                it
                > > seems like everybody from Bubber Miley to Jabo Smith is
                influenced by
                > > Oliver, or Armstrong on books, however, just because sometimes
                the
                > > tone sounds very similar, especially when the plunger mute is
                used.
                > >
                > > Personally I thought I like Tommy Dorsey on trumpet, but maybe I
                > > confused him in my mind for Jimmy Dorsey. Tommy and Jimmy Dorsey
                are
                > > good examples of multi-instrumentalist. Perhaps the
                folk/vaudeville
                > > roots are part of it? Benny Carter seems to me was of the
                freelance
                > > type of multi-instrumentalist or maybe because he arranged a lot,
                > > Eddie Durham was another arranger and durham was quite
                groundbreaking
                > > both on guitar and trombone, although he wasn't really a master
                of
                > > any of those.
                > > tommer
                > >
                > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Dan Van Landingham
                > > <danvanlandingham@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > As far as doubling is concerned,I started to learn some of the
                > > other brass instruments some
                > > > 43 years ago.I started out on cornet then switched to the E-
                flat
                > > tuba in late 1964.I later lear-
                > > > ned the BBb tuba a couple of years later.I learned slide
                trombone
                > > at 14 then,at 16,learned
                > > > the clarinet followed by the tenor sax in late 1968.My first
                sax
                > > was an old Buescher C Mel-
                > > > ody that was given to me.When I was on college,I decided to let
                > > those who were better
                > > > trumpeters that I do that.I switched over to baritone sax and I
                > > played that instrument from
                > > > time to time.From time to time,I did play either alto or tenor
                > > sax in various concert and stage
                > > > bands starting as a trumpeter in 1968.My lip on tuba is gone;I
                > > got a phone call from a band
                > > > director here back in 1972 when he learned I had played tuba in
                > > the school orchestra when
                > > > my alma mater,North Bend High School in North Bend,Oregon(this
                > > was in early 1970).I
                > > > made a couple of rehearsals but my lip on the instrument never
                > > came back.What was odd
                > > > was that I hadn't played slide trombone since the early to
                > > mid '70s.A friend of mine,who is
                > > > a trombonist sold me an old Conn Director for $30 and I got to
                > > playing it and my lip came
                > > > back.I have a friend in Washington State who was a doubler as
                > > well.His first instrument is
                > > > the trombone but doubled trumpet as well as baritone sax.He
                felt
                > > that doubling was thera-
                > > > putic to his lip and he was right.I used to have a very
                flexable
                > > lip and I could play pedal to-
                > > > nes on tuba.The catch to this was I had to practise longer on
                my
                > > trumpet just to keep my
                > > > lip up.I once met a trumpeter(back in 1971)who was in the
                studios
                > > for years and was doi-
                > > > ng studio work at the time.He told me to quit doubling trombone
                > > and he did have someth-
                > > > ing of a point:whatever instrument I doubled,I had to work
                twice
                > > as hard to keep my lip up
                > > > on trumpet.Tommy Dorsey,for all his abilities,was never as good
                > > on trumpet as he was on
                > > > trombone.Benny Carter,however,surprised me:I once heard him on
                > > trombone and he was
                > > > quite good.His sound on trumpet was a bit thin.As for his
                > > abilities on clarinet,he needed to
                > > > work harder on that instrument.Getting back to Dorsey,his sound
                > > on trumpet was rather
                > > > "shakey".For me,I had little trouble switching from alto to
                tenor
                > > sax.What people didn't
                > > > like about my sound on tenor sax,for example,was that my sound
                on
                > > tenor was too much
                > > > like Coleman Hawkins for them.My sound on alto was too much
                like
                > > Benny Carter for
                > > > their liking.I ignored them,especially after Scott Hamilton
                came
                > > along.He made a name for
                > > > himself and I didn't.Still,I wouldn't change a thing about my
                > > sound on either sax.That's my
                > > > opinion for what it's worth.
                > > >
                > > > Ron L <lherault@> wrote:
                > > > Doubling, as it is called, is not unusual in band
                > > settings. Reed players
                > > > play the whole family of reeds sometimes and others may even
                double
                > > on
                > > > trumpet, trombone or banjo. Brass players double on other brass
                > > instruments
                > > > too. I'm sure other listers can come up with specific names.
                I've
                > > been
                > > > told, although I don't remember seeing it myself that there is
                film
                > > of Jack
                > > > Teagarden doubling on something in the xylophone/vibes family.
                > > >
                > > > Ron L
                > > >
                > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > From: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                > > [mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com] On
                > > > Behalf Of Tommer
                > > > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 4:03 PM
                > > > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: Jazz multi-instrumentalists?
                > > >
                > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Tommer" <tommersl@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > I'm looking for pre war Jazz multi-instrumentalists, what I
                mean
                > > > are
                > > > > artists that were leaders in more than one instrument. For
                > > > instance,
                > > > > Lonnie Johnson who was one of the leaders guitarists and
                > > violinists
                > > > and
                > > > > harmoniumists of his time. He also was influential vocalist,
                but
                > > I
                > > > > don't want to count the vocals.
                > > > >
                > > > > tommer
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > > Maybe motivation is needed. What I'm up to is to see whether
                > > > multiinstrumentalism was integral part of the 1920's or was it
                some
                > > > sort of freelancers thing, musicians were mostly using one
                major
                > > > instrument, and freelancing and filling in with other
                instruments
                > > > that were required for others.
                > > >
                > > > That might also imply the profile of the 1920's multi-
                > > > instrumentalist, folk music background, family band that family
                > > > members were switching instruments.
                > > >
                > > > For the freelancing example there is the example of James
                Rushing
                > > > that told about Jelly Roll Morton playing drums while he was
                > > playing
                > > > the piano!
                > > >
                > > > And for the family multi-instrumentalists, Lonnie Johnson, or
                even
                > > > the weird George Morrison story.
                > > >
                > > > tommer
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ---------------------------------
                > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
                Mobile.
                > Try it now.
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
              • ikey100
                My apologies for the failure to trim the earlier long post from my previous reply message, an oversight I will be more aware of next time, lest my post s
                Message 7 of 15 , Apr 26, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  My apologies for the failure to trim the earlier long post from my
                  previous reply message, an oversight I will be more aware of next time,
                  lest my post's message get conflated with the (rather self-indulgent)
                  post at the bottom.

                  Warren
                • Tommer
                  ... what ... so ... diatonic ... learned, ... good ... and ... framework ... childhood ... even ... aforementioned ... of ... I ... Man ... of ... April ...
                  Message 8 of 15 , Apr 26, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "ikey100" <wlmoorman3@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Bechet's One Man Band record, although quasi-overdubbed, gets at
                    what
                    > I think is the only interest in most cases of multi-
                    instrumentalists:
                    > the playing of more than one instrument during a single tune. Not
                    so
                    > much simultaneously, as with true one man bands, but rather
                    > successively. Ray Nance, for example, or Slick Jones' switch from a
                    > melodic vibe solo to hot drumming on the extended studio version
                    > of "Honeysuckle Rose".
                    >
                    > But why should one be amazed by professional competency, if perhaps
                    > not mastery, of several instruments? The basic knowledge of
                    diatonic
                    > music readily transfers when each instruments' technique is
                    learned,
                    > and for some instruments, such as sax and clarinet, the fingerings
                    > are already similar. And rhythmic aptitude is internal, as every
                    good
                    > dancer proves. There are certainly differences between the touch
                    and
                    > sustain of an organ to a piano, or technique for tenor guitar vs.
                    > banjo, for example, and within each instrument's capabilities there
                    > are nearly limitless stylistic variations, but the musical
                    framework
                    > is the same.
                    >
                    > Just last night, in Milt Hinton's autobiography "Bass Line", I read
                    > about the formal training received by he and so many of his
                    childhood
                    > peers in Chicago. Excellent training in classical, brass band and
                    > parlor music was common, even if sometimes given informally, and
                    even
                    > when it might only eventuate in the likes of circus band work. The
                    > story is the same elsewhere-George Morrison's family in Denver, The
                    > Jenkins Orphanage, Portia Pittman in Dallas, etc. The
                    aforementioned
                    > hot drummer Slick Jones studied piano in his provincial youth and
                    > attended conservatory in New York, yet his image among many fans is
                    > of an intuitive rhythm ace.
                    >
                    > The formal knowledge of pre-war jazz men is often underestimated,
                    > whether by ignorance or intention, and perhaps the lesser training
                    of
                    > some more recent musicians allows reinforcement of this assumption.
                    I
                    > can see nothing inherent in formal training that "makes people
                    > believe in" misconceptions about jazz, as Tommers wrote. Perhaps a
                    > naive desire for early jazz players to fit the "intuitive genuis"
                    > mold persists some places, but it shouldn't.
                    >
                    > Warren
                    > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > The great Adrian Rollini played a whole bunch of instruments: bass
                    > > sax, piano, goofus, hot fountain pen, celeste, vibraphone,
                    > xylophone.
                    > >
                    > > The redhotjazz site has the following about Sidney Bechet's One-
                    Man
                    > > Band, New York, April 18, 1941, Victor 27485.
                    > >
                    > > "This is a strange record. The Sheik Of Araby is an early example
                    of
                    > > multi-track recording. Sidney Bechet was at the RCA studios on
                    April
                    > > 18th, 1941 (before tape) and the engineers fiddled with some early
                    > > multiple recordings. This is the result. Record an instrument,
                    play
                    > > the record back while he played another instrument along with the
                    > > record, ad nauseum - the first ones recorded sounding worse each
                    > time
                    > > another record is made. Clarinet, soprano saxophone, tenor
                    > saxophone,
                    > > piano, bass and drums, all played by Bechet. If you can hear the
                    > > drums, you win a cigar."
                    > >
                    > > Brian Rust lists Bechet also playing string bass in the recording
                    of
                    > > The Sheik of Araby mentioned in the redhotjazz site.
                    > >
                    > > I was not uncommon for sax players to double on violin.
                    > >
                    > > Albert
                    > >
                    > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Dan Van Landingham
                    > > <danvanlandingham@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > To add to my previous blog:I learned to play on an old pump
                    organ
                    > > back in 1961.When I was in my early twenties,I learned guitar and
                    > bass
                    > > guitar.I perform,from time to time,as a
                    > > > guitarist and was a professional electric bass
                    player,trumpeter
                    > > and saxophonist back in
                    > > > 1973.I once tried the accordion but it wasn't my instrument.I
                    > left
                    > > that to my late uncle Da-
                    > > > ve Morgan who was another multi-instrumentalist
                    (piano,accordion
                    > > and trumpet).His older
                    > > > sisters were also doublers:both played tenor
                    > guitar,mandolin,piano
                    > > and violin.I heard my
                    > > > late aunt Isabel play violin and she had a nice sound.Violin
                    is
                    > > another instrument I played
                    > > > but my fingers are stiff now.I haven't touched it in years.
                    > > >
                    > > > Tommer <tommersl@> wrote:
                    > > > Thank you very much for I enjoyed reading this post
                    very
                    > > much and
                    > > > learned from it.
                    > > >
                    > > > At some point soloist are mastering an instrument's sound in
                    such
                    > a
                    > > > way that most anyone who hear an instrument on the surface he
                    > will
                    > > > link it to those artists, though when listening in depth the
                    > > > differences are quite obvious, especially unique improvisations
                    > of
                    > > > artists, but because, maybe the tone and other surface elements
                    > it
                    > > > goes like that that people are confusing different artists.
                    > > >
                    > > > The rise of the importance of tone was part of what put an end
                    to
                    > the
                    > > > New Orleans swinging era IMO. And Louis Armstrong is perhaps a
                    > good
                    > > > example because he had both the swinging and the tone and as
                    time
                    > > > went by he focused more on tone than improvising IMO.
                    > > >
                    > > > I notived as an example that many of the influence-chains in
                    > books
                    > > > are more because the surface tone than what musicians are
                    really
                    > > > doing in the core, the way they swing and improvise, their best
                    > > > melodys improvisations, the syncopations they prefer and etc.
                    So
                    > it
                    > > > seems like everybody from Bubber Miley to Jabo Smith is
                    > influenced by
                    > > > Oliver, or Armstrong on books, however, just because sometimes
                    > the
                    > > > tone sounds very similar, especially when the plunger mute is
                    > used.
                    > > >
                    > > > Personally I thought I like Tommy Dorsey on trumpet, but maybe
                    I
                    > > > confused him in my mind for Jimmy Dorsey. Tommy and Jimmy
                    Dorsey
                    > are
                    > > > good examples of multi-instrumentalist. Perhaps the
                    > folk/vaudeville
                    > > > roots are part of it? Benny Carter seems to me was of the
                    > freelance
                    > > > type of multi-instrumentalist or maybe because he arranged a
                    lot,
                    > > > Eddie Durham was another arranger and durham was quite
                    > groundbreaking
                    > > > both on guitar and trombone, although he wasn't really a master
                    > of
                    > > > any of those.
                    > > > tommer
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Dan Van Landingham
                    > > > <danvanlandingham@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > As far as doubling is concerned,I started to learn some of
                    the
                    > > > other brass instruments some
                    > > > > 43 years ago.I started out on cornet then switched to the E-
                    > flat
                    > > > tuba in late 1964.I later lear-
                    > > > > ned the BBb tuba a couple of years later.I learned slide
                    > trombone
                    > > > at 14 then,at 16,learned
                    > > > > the clarinet followed by the tenor sax in late 1968.My first
                    > sax
                    > > > was an old Buescher C Mel-
                    > > > > ody that was given to me.When I was on college,I decided to
                    let
                    > > > those who were better
                    > > > > trumpeters that I do that.I switched over to baritone sax and
                    I
                    > > > played that instrument from
                    > > > > time to time.From time to time,I did play either alto or
                    tenor
                    > > > sax in various concert and stage
                    > > > > bands starting as a trumpeter in 1968.My lip on tuba is
                    gone;I
                    > > > got a phone call from a band
                    > > > > director here back in 1972 when he learned I had played tuba
                    in
                    > > > the school orchestra when
                    > > > > my alma mater,North Bend High School in North Bend,Oregon
                    (this
                    > > > was in early 1970).I
                    > > > > made a couple of rehearsals but my lip on the instrument
                    never
                    > > > came back.What was odd
                    > > > > was that I hadn't played slide trombone since the early to
                    > > > mid '70s.A friend of mine,who is
                    > > > > a trombonist sold me an old Conn Director for $30 and I got
                    to
                    > > > playing it and my lip came
                    > > > > back.I have a friend in Washington State who was a doubler as
                    > > > well.His first instrument is
                    > > > > the trombone but doubled trumpet as well as baritone sax.He
                    > felt
                    > > > that doubling was thera-
                    > > > > putic to his lip and he was right.I used to have a very
                    > flexable
                    > > > lip and I could play pedal to-
                    > > > > nes on tuba.The catch to this was I had to practise longer on
                    > my
                    > > > trumpet just to keep my
                    > > > > lip up.I once met a trumpeter(back in 1971)who was in the
                    > studios
                    > > > for years and was doi-
                    > > > > ng studio work at the time.He told me to quit doubling
                    trombone
                    > > > and he did have someth-
                    > > > > ing of a point:whatever instrument I doubled,I had to work
                    > twice
                    > > > as hard to keep my lip up
                    > > > > on trumpet.Tommy Dorsey,for all his abilities,was never as
                    good
                    > > > on trumpet as he was on
                    > > > > trombone.Benny Carter,however,surprised me:I once heard him
                    on
                    > > > trombone and he was
                    > > > > quite good.His sound on trumpet was a bit thin.As for his
                    > > > abilities on clarinet,he needed to
                    > > > > work harder on that instrument.Getting back to Dorsey,his
                    sound
                    > > > on trumpet was rather
                    > > > > "shakey".For me,I had little trouble switching from alto to
                    > tenor
                    > > > sax.What people didn't
                    > > > > like about my sound on tenor sax,for example,was that my
                    sound
                    > on
                    > > > tenor was too much
                    > > > > like Coleman Hawkins for them.My sound on alto was too much
                    > like
                    > > > Benny Carter for
                    > > > > their liking.I ignored them,especially after Scott Hamilton
                    > came
                    > > > along.He made a name for
                    > > > > himself and I didn't.Still,I wouldn't change a thing about my
                    > > > sound on either sax.That's my
                    > > > > opinion for what it's worth.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Ron L <lherault@> wrote:
                    > > > > Doubling, as it is called, is not unusual in band
                    > > > settings. Reed players
                    > > > > play the whole family of reeds sometimes and others may even
                    > double
                    > > > on
                    > > > > trumpet, trombone or banjo. Brass players double on other
                    brass
                    > > > instruments
                    > > > > too. I'm sure other listers can come up with specific names.
                    > I've
                    > > > been
                    > > > > told, although I don't remember seeing it myself that there
                    is
                    > film
                    > > > of Jack
                    > > > > Teagarden doubling on something in the xylophone/vibes family.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Ron L
                    > > > >
                    > > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > > From: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > [mailto:RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com] On
                    > > > > Behalf Of Tommer
                    > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 4:03 PM
                    > > > > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: Jazz multi-instrumentalists?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Tommer" <tommersl@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I'm looking for pre war Jazz multi-instrumentalists, what I
                    > mean
                    > > > > are
                    > > > > > artists that were leaders in more than one instrument. For
                    > > > > instance,
                    > > > > > Lonnie Johnson who was one of the leaders guitarists and
                    > > > violinists
                    > > > > and
                    > > > > > harmoniumists of his time. He also was influential
                    vocalist,
                    > but
                    > > > I
                    > > > > > don't want to count the vocals.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > tommer
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Maybe motivation is needed. What I'm up to is to see whether
                    > > > > multiinstrumentalism was integral part of the 1920's or was
                    it
                    > some
                    > > > > sort of freelancers thing, musicians were mostly using one
                    > major
                    > > > > instrument, and freelancing and filling in with other
                    > instruments
                    > > > > that were required for others.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > That might also imply the profile of the 1920's multi-
                    > > > > instrumentalist, folk music background, family band that
                    family
                    > > > > members were switching instruments.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > For the freelancing example there is the example of James
                    > Rushing
                    > > > > that told about Jelly Roll Morton playing drums while he was
                    > > > playing
                    > > > > the piano!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > And for the family multi-instrumentalists, Lonnie Johnson, or
                    > even
                    > > > > the weird George Morrison story.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > tommer
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ---------------------------------
                    > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
                    > Mobile.
                    > > Try it now.
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Tommer
                    I agree with what you wrote, what I meant is a situation that people think that Jazz = Classical music played by not trained artists, or something like Jazz is
                    Message 9 of 15 , Apr 26, 2008
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                      I agree with what you wrote, what I meant is a situation that people
                      think that Jazz = Classical music played by not trained artists, or
                      something like Jazz is a distortion of strict music (Classical), or
                      that all significant ideas in music are contained in the Classical
                      music and Jazz added nothing to that.

                      The more moderated approach of Classical music propogandists is that
                      Jazz is "improvisation" on Classical music, and that was what Morrison
                      (edited by Schuller) were talking about in the interview. Jazzing-up
                      the Tin Pan Alley with drums and improvisations.
                      Tommer
                      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "ikey100" <wlmoorman3@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > The formal knowledge of pre-war jazz men is often underestimated,
                      > whether by ignorance or intention, and perhaps the lesser training
                      of
                      > some more recent musicians allows reinforcement of this assumption.
                      I
                      > can see nothing inherent in formal training that "makes people
                      > believe in" misconceptions about jazz, as Tommers wrote. Perhaps a
                      > naive desire for early jazz players to fit the "intuitive genuis"
                      > mold persists some places, but it shouldn't.
                      >
                      > Warren
                    • Patrice Champarou
                      I think Classical does not mean much anyway. Anything likely to be taught in classes? In that case, there are plenty of different types of classical music
                      Message 10 of 15 , Apr 26, 2008
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                        I think "Classical" does not mean much anyway. Anything likely to be taught
                        in classes? In that case, there are plenty of different types of "classical"
                        music which request long years and even decades of training (Algerian
                        "Nouba", Indian "Raga"...) and still have nothing to do with European music
                        of the XVIIIth century. The so-called "classical" standards only match a
                        comparatively brief period of time in the history of European music, and
                        miss the essence of most folk genres. They're just a grammar, with the same
                        type of blind windows as the sets of rules designed to describe human
                        languages, plus the ridiculous claim to account for every single note played
                        since the birth of mankind, and to be the universal "basis" of all musical
                        genres.
                        Instrumental training wih a classical background, or the ability to read
                        scores, never hampered anyone's genius, but if you cannot find your own way
                        out of their limitations I doubt you can go very far... I heard excellent
                        professional musicians actually "improvising" on jazz tunes, with a very
                        disappointing result because jazz was not part of their musical culture.

                        Patrice

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Tommer" <tommersl@...>
                        To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 9:35 PM
                        Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: Jazz multi-instrumentalists?


                        >I agree with what you wrote, what I meant is a situation that people
                        > think that Jazz = Classical music played by not trained artists, or
                        > something like Jazz is a distortion of strict music (Classical), or
                        > that all significant ideas in music are contained in the Classical
                        > music and Jazz added nothing to that.
                        >
                        > The more moderated approach of Classical music propogandists is that
                        > Jazz is "improvisation" on Classical music, and that was what Morrison
                        > (edited by Schuller) were talking about in the interview. Jazzing-up
                        > the Tin Pan Alley with drums and improvisations.
                        > Tommer
                      • Tommer
                        The Classical word came early on Schuller s book and was part of the terminology of it to the very end. Tommer ... be taught ... of classical ... (Algerian
                        Message 11 of 15 , Apr 26, 2008
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                          The "Classical" word came early on Schuller's book and was part of
                          the terminology of it to the very end.
                          Tommer

                          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Patrice Champarou"
                          <patrice.champarou@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I think "Classical" does not mean much anyway. Anything likely to
                          be taught
                          > in classes? In that case, there are plenty of different types
                          of "classical"
                          > music which request long years and even decades of training
                          (Algerian
                          > "Nouba", Indian "Raga"...) and still have nothing to do with
                          European music
                          > of the XVIIIth century. The so-called "classical" standards only
                          match a
                          > comparatively brief period of time in the history of European
                          music, and
                          > miss the essence of most folk genres. They're just a grammar, with
                          the same
                          > type of blind windows as the sets of rules designed to describe
                          human
                          > languages, plus the ridiculous claim to account for every single
                          note played
                          > since the birth of mankind, and to be the universal "basis" of all
                          musical
                          > genres.
                          > Instrumental training wih a classical background, or the ability to
                          read
                          > scores, never hampered anyone's genius, but if you cannot find your
                          own way
                          > out of their limitations I doubt you can go very far... I heard
                          excellent
                          > professional musicians actually "improvising" on jazz tunes, with a
                          very
                          > disappointing result because jazz was not part of their musical
                          culture.
                          >
                          > Patrice
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "Tommer" <tommersl@...>
                          > To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 9:35 PM
                          > Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: Jazz multi-instrumentalists?
                          >
                          >
                          > >I agree with what you wrote, what I meant is a situation that
                          people
                          > > think that Jazz = Classical music played by not trained artists,
                          or
                          > > something like Jazz is a distortion of strict music (Classical),
                          or
                          > > that all significant ideas in music are contained in the Classical
                          > > music and Jazz added nothing to that.
                          > >
                          > > The more moderated approach of Classical music propogandists is
                          that
                          > > Jazz is "improvisation" on Classical music, and that was what
                          Morrison
                          > > (edited by Schuller) were talking about in the interview. Jazzing-
                          up
                          > > the Tin Pan Alley with drums and improvisations.
                          > > Tommer
                          >
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