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Re: Rust's books

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  • Tommer
    ... volume set. There is a site by someone Tom Lord lordisco.com that is claiming to have the entire and all-time discography of Jazz on a single cd. It
    Message 1 of 17 , Oct 31, 2007
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      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Dan Van Landingham
      <danvanlandingham@...> wrote:
      >
      > Nor do I.There is Jeppsen's Jazz Discographies but that was a 25
      volume set.

      There is a site by someone Tom Lord lordisco.com that is claiming to
      have the entire and all-time discography of Jazz on a single cd. It
      discouraged me from trying to build a prewar database of all the cds
      I (and will) have when I found out about it.

      Interesting is the statistics on this site says, 700000 artists, and
      the same amount of tunes. Somehow the number of tunes ,at least that
      is what is written in his site, converges to the number of artists.

      I'm discouraged by the price and the chances that there are mistakes.
      tommersl
    • Howard Rye
      The current edition of Jazz and Ragtime Records 1897-1942 is the 6th, published by Mainspring Press, Denver, Colorado, in 2002. You can easily google them. It
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 1, 2007
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        The current edition of Jazz and Ragtime Records 1897-1942 is the 6th,
        published by Mainspring Press, Denver, Colorado, in 2002. You can easily
        google them. It is edited by Malcolm Shaw and I guess Brian Rust had quite a
        small input into the changes.

        I don't think it would be meaningful to say it's updated. There are changes
        but the majority of issued broadcasts, radio transcriptions, and so on are
        still omitted, so are most new takes and previously unissued items that have
        appeared on LP or CD since 1970. A lot of different speculations about
        personnels we will never know for sure have been substituted over the years.
        I still use the 1969 third edition for most purposes, but we've had a recent
        example on this list (Blue Steele) of how that can mislead.

        You pays your money and etc.!


        on 31/10/07 21:54, Dan Van Landingham at danvanlandingham@... wrote:

        Did Rust ever update his discography book?

        Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
        howard@...
        Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nick Dellow
        I won t list all the negative points of the current edition of Jazz and Ragtime Records, as these have been outlined here and elsewhere over and over again. I
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 1, 2007
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          I won't list all the negative points of the current edition of Jazz and
          Ragtime Records, as these have been outlined here and elsewhere over and
          over again. I for one prefer to stick with both the 1969 edition and the
          revised 1978 edition.

          But I would like to say something...

          When Brian came up with the original idea of Jazz Records, he risked almost
          everything to see that it came to fruition. He left the BBC, akin to
          leaving a cosy job at the civil service, and great credit to his wife Mary
          who supported - and indeed encouraged him - in his decision at a time when
          they had a young family with all the financial responsibilities that
          entails. The amount of research that Brian conducted and coordinated - with
          the help of many collectors and musicians - was phenomenal, and the
          subsequent publication of Jazz Records was an unequivocal success in almost
          all respects.

          Perhaps most importantly, it laid a firm foundation for further research and
          dissemination of information, so it is indeed a shame that the current
          edition does not continue in this way. Having said that, all thanks to Brian
          for his determination and sheer hard work in getting that huge ball rolling.


          Nick


          On 01/11/2007, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
          >
          > The current edition of Jazz and Ragtime Records 1897-1942 is the 6th,
          > published by Mainspring Press, Denver, Colorado, in 2002. You can easily
          > google them. It is edited by Malcolm Shaw and I guess Brian Rust had quite
          > a
          > small input into the changes.
          >
          > I don't think it would be meaningful to say it's updated. There are
          > changes
          > but the majority of issued broadcasts, radio transcriptions, and so on are
          > still omitted, so are most new takes and previously unissued items that
          > have
          > appeared on LP or CD since 1970. A lot of different speculations about
          > personnels we will never know for sure have been substituted over the
          > years.
          > I still use the 1969 third edition for most purposes, but we've had a
          > recent
          > example on this list (Blue Steele) of how that can mislead.
          >
          > You pays your money and etc.!
          >
          > on 31/10/07 21:54, Dan Van Landingham at danvanlandingham@...<danvanlandingham%40yahoo.com>wrote:
          >
          > Did Rust ever update his discography book?
          >
          > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
          > howard@... <howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk>
          > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jim Baldwin
          Jazz & Ragtime Records is a wholly new title, not a 6th edition. There is no such thing. At the most it can be described as a 6th incarnation of Rust s Jazz
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 1, 2007
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            Jazz & Ragtime Records is a wholly new title, not a 6th edition. There
            is no such thing. At the most it can be described as a 6th incarnation
            of Rust's Jazz Records. It does continue the work of Brian Rust to whom
            we all should be most grateful, but I haven't read of him saying how much
            input he provided to the work under discussion. Maybe he doesnt want to.
            One Malcolm Shaw is the editor and bears the responsibility for this inept
            work.

            I bought my set on the recommendation of a jazz researcher. I found out
            later he is a buddy of the editor. Had I known the problems with the work
            I would have spent my money elsewhere.

            The J&RR was a terrible disappointment. Thousands of corrections were
            ignored after a buildup of over two decades. Those corrections are now being
            issued in a British auction catalog one must subscribe to. If you don't have
            those you cannot use the J&RR with any confidence.

            Another annoyance was that the former page layout Rust used which enabled
            the researcher to quickly look up various artists was abandoned. The former
            layout had the artist name at the top of each page. Now at the top of the page
            is Brian Rust's name on the left page and the book title on the right. I guess it's
            handy if you should forget what you are looking at. Luckily, the page numbers
            were provided.

            The publisher also left out the tune index! After outcries it was published as a
            separate paperback for another $20. (I can see decades from now later collectors
            will be in considerable anguish being unable to to find tunes in the main work
            after the separate index is lost or worn out and discarded.)

            Anyways, that's why I said hold onto the 1978 4th edition. It is still useful.

            Caveat emptor applies here.

            Jim
            ===========================================================
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Howard Rye
            To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 7:10 AM
            Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Rust's books


            The current edition of Jazz and Ragtime Records 1897-1942 is the 6th,
            published by Mainspring Press, Denver, Colorado, in 2002. You can easily
            google them. It is edited by Malcolm Shaw and I guess Brian Rust had quite a
            small input into the changes.

            I don't think it would be meaningful to say it's updated. There are changes
            but the majority of issued broadcasts, radio transcriptions, and so on are
            still omitted, so are most new takes and previously unissued items that have
            appeared on LP or CD since 1970. A lot of different speculations about
            personnels we will never know for sure have been substituted over the years.
            I still use the 1969 third edition for most purposes, but we've had a recent
            example on this list (Blue Steele) of how that can mislead.

            You pays your money and etc.!

            on 31/10/07 21:54, Dan Van Landingham at danvanlandingham@... wrote:

            Did Rust ever update his discography book?

            Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
            howard@...
            Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • jimmiejazz37
            There are many fine hot dance/jazz tunes in Rust s American Dance Band Discography which are not in Jazz Records. Does Lord attempt to include these in his
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 1, 2007
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              There are many fine hot dance/jazz tunes in Rust's American Dance
              Band Discography which are not in Jazz Records. Does Lord attempt to
              include these in his discography?

              BTW, Tommer, no discography is free from mistakes. It's always an
              ongoing effort to achieve better accuracy.

              Jim
              ======================================================================
              --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Tommer" <tommersl@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Dan Van Landingham
              > <danvanlandingham@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Nor do I.There is Jeppsen's Jazz Discographies but that was a 25
              > volume set.
              >
              > There is a site by someone Tom Lord lordisco.com that is claiming
              to
              > have the entire and all-time discography of Jazz on a single cd. It
              > discouraged me from trying to build a prewar database of all the
              cds
              > I (and will) have when I found out about it.
              >
              > Interesting is the statistics on this site says, 700000 artists,
              and
              > the same amount of tunes. Somehow the number of tunes ,at least
              that
              > is what is written in his site, converges to the number of artists.
              >
              > I'm discouraged by the price and the chances that there are
              mistakes.
              > tommersl
              >
            • Tommer
              ... Indeed there are mistakes, I guess I need the authoritative recommendation of someone, like members of this very list before I get into a 420$ in amount of
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 1, 2007
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                --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "jimmiejazz37" <jimmiejazz@...> wrote:
                >
                > BTW, Tommer, no discography is free from mistakes. It's always an
                > ongoing effort to achieve better accuracy.
                >
                > Jim
                >

                Indeed there are mistakes, I guess I need the authoritative
                recommendation of someone, like members of this very list before I get
                into a 420$ in amount of adventure which can be full of misleading paths.
                tommer
              • Howard Rye
                Walter Bruninckx s 90 Years of Recorded Jazz & Blues (1917-2007) (Prejazz 1897-1917) , of which the latest edition has just been published, is (a) cheaper;
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 1, 2007
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                  Walter Bruninckx's "90 Years of Recorded Jazz & Blues (1917-2007) (Prejazz
                  1897-1917)", of which the latest edition has just been published, is (a)
                  cheaper; (b) one step nearer to good sources on many artists; (c) also
                  includes blues and (some) African-American gospel music.

                  It's only on CD-R (opens in Microsoft Word on both PCs & MACs). You can find
                  Walter at Lange Nieuwstraat 121, 2800 Mechelen, Belgium, and he has
                  arrangements for payment in several currencies.

                  on 1/11/07 16:06, Tommer at tommersl@... wrote:

                  --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                  "jimmiejazz37" <jimmiejazz@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > BTW, Tommer, no discography is free from mistakes. It's always an
                  > ongoing effort to achieve better accuracy.
                  >
                  > Jim
                  >

                  Indeed there are mistakes, I guess I need the authoritative
                  recommendation of someone, like members of this very list before I get
                  into a 420$ in amount of adventure which can be full of misleading paths.
                  tommer



                  Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                  howard@...
                  Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • john schott
                  The Tom Lord discography was controversial when it first appeared, as large parts of it seemed to be plagiarized from other discographies, and not based on
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 1, 2007
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                    The Tom Lord discography was controversial when it first appeared, as large parts of it seemed to be plagiarized from other discographies, and not based on original research. I believe Barry Kernfeld reviewed it and discussed these matters in the journal "Notes." This would have been about 1995.

                    John Schott

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Tommer
                    ... (Prejazz ... Sounds like an interestingly defined musical scope, and at the same time it seems like what I was looking for. tommer
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 1, 2007
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                      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Howard Rye <howard@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Walter Bruninckx's "90 Years of Recorded Jazz & Blues (1917-2007)
                      (Prejazz
                      > 1897-1917)", of which the latest edition has just been published, is (a)
                      > cheaper; (b) one step nearer to good sources on many artists; (c) also
                      > includes blues and (some) African-American gospel music.
                      >
                      >

                      Sounds like an interestingly defined musical scope, and at the same
                      time it seems like what I was looking for.
                      tommer
                    • Dan Van Landingham
                      Who is this Tom Lord you have been speaking of?I have never heard of him. john schott wrote: The Tom Lord discography was
                      Message 10 of 17 , Nov 1, 2007
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                        Who is this Tom Lord you have been speaking of?I have never heard of him.

                        john schott <john@...> wrote: The Tom Lord discography was controversial when it first appeared, as large parts of it seemed to be plagiarized from other discographies, and not based on original research. I believe Barry Kernfeld reviewed it and discussed these matters in the journal "Notes." This would have been about 1995.

                        John Schott

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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                      • Albert Haim
                        Tom Lord s discography is described in http://www.lordisco.com/ Albert ... him. ... controversial when it first appeared, as large parts of it seemed to be
                        Message 11 of 17 , Nov 2, 2007
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                          Tom Lord's discography is described in

                          http://www.lordisco.com/

                          Albert


                          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Dan Van Landingham
                          <danvanlandingham@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Who is this Tom Lord you have been speaking of?I have never heard of
                          him.
                          >
                          > john schott <john@...> wrote: The Tom Lord discography was
                          controversial when it first appeared, as large parts of it seemed to
                          be plagiarized from other discographies, and not based on original
                          research. I believe Barry Kernfeld reviewed it and discussed these
                          matters in the journal "Notes." This would have been about 1995.
                          >
                          > John Schott
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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