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Re: [RedHotJazz] new Frog CDs/Birmingham Serenaders

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  • Howard Rye
    ... There isn t a shred of evidence to connect these with Clarence, unless you believe in the Pete Brown connection and my ears certainly don t. Any connection
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 9, 2005
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      on 3/6/05 12:13, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:

      > Drat - I hate buying dubs of my old LPs, but the 1938 recordings probably
      > weren't ever on LP. Has anyone heard them? Strange personnel with electric
      > organ, and unfortunately not available by the RedHotJazz site. In the
      > meantime, any opinions on the Birmingham Serenaders? After listening again, I
      > don't think the vocal can be Clarence. There might be two different vocalists
      > involved, however. The trumpet is good and hot and there's a very fluent brass
      > bass. Not Clarence' regular companions, but he did on occasion borrow other
      > peoples' bands.

      There isn't a shred of evidence to connect these with Clarence, unless you
      believe in the Pete Brown connection and my ears certainly don't. Any
      connection with Clarence was rejected both by the Storyville study and by
      Tom Lord's scholarly study of Williams. (This is not the same Tom Lord as
      the Canadian discograher in case anyone thinks it is.)

      Now that I've heard Frog DGF57, which is no doubt better dubbed than
      whatever I had them on before, I find I still think what I thought when I
      first heard the 78s umpty-tump years ago (I do remember when but I'm not
      saying).

      This is a territory band. The band name could be trying to tell us
      something. There is no shred of evidence for this theory either (but at
      least it doesn't involve making up any names). One thing I am sure of is
      that the singer on the blues sides is a "real" blues singer and not just a
      musician doing a vocal.

      One can only gasp at the splendid example provided by the notes of trying to
      fit known names to musicians who sound nothing like them, especially the
      naming of Charlie Gaines, followed by a note that he denied his presence!
      Well, at least they admitted it.

      I was even more gob-smacked to read in the notes apropos the 31 October 1930
      session by the Bingie Madison band that "they had accompanied Mamie Smith on
      19 February 1929 for the Okeh label". Since Mamie didn't record on that date
      I presume this refers to the 19 February 1931 Jenny's Ball session which was
      long credited to the Madison band. However so many members of the band
      denied involvement over the years that even Brian Rust has dropped this
      speculation and Rust 6 doesn't even allude to it (whereas in B & G we
      thought we ought to mention it). There was nothing unintelligent about this
      particular speculation; it just wasn't correct and it's an awful warning of
      the way such speculations can become fact in people's minds without any
      justification whatever.

      The three unissued trio sides are a delight, though it's very obvious why
      they weren't issued at the time. They're a Sunday evening get together in
      the Williams living room! Connie Berry (female by the way) gives a very good
      account of herself at the piano and it's a shame this is her only confirmned
      appearance on record.

      Anyone intending to order from Frog should note that the fax only works when
      Dawn's not answering the phone, which is not good news for those calling
      from overseas.



      Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
      howard@...
      Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
    • Michael Rader
      The main reason for connecting them with Williams, if I understand Lord correctly, is the repertoire, i.e. the numbers played at the session, which were owned
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 9, 2005
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        The main reason for connecting them with Williams, if I understand Lord correctly, is the repertoire, i.e. the numbers played at the session, which were owned by Williams' publishing company. Another reason might be the use of brass rather than string bass - at times the work does remind me of contemporary Cyrus St. Clair. I have them on a Harrison LP, which isn't as badly dubbed as I recalled. The first track on that has a - at first hearing - rather "hammy" vocal which reminded me of Kellog Jefferson, or whatever the vocalist on the Troy Floyd sides was called. Either he improves on the other tracks or there is a second vocalist. As I said, David French was convinced that these were by a Williams band...

        By the way, who wrote the booklet notes?

        When I tried to fax Dawn last, I got a "line engaged" signal for almost the whole morning and she sent me an e-mail saying it was better to send a letter anyway, unless you can tell her all you need to in an e-mail.

        Michael Rader

        >
        > There isn't a shred of evidence to connect these with Clarence, unless you
        > believe in the Pete Brown connection and my ears certainly don't. Any
        > connection with Clarence was rejected both by the Storyville study and by
        > Tom Lord's scholarly study of Williams. (This is not the same Tom Lord as
        > the Canadian discograher in case anyone thinks it is.)
        >
        > Now that I've heard Frog DGF57, which is no doubt better dubbed than
        > whatever I had them on before, I find I still think what I thought when I
        > first heard the 78s umpty-tump years ago (I do remember when but I'm not
        > saying).
        >
        > This is a territory band. The band name could be trying to tell us
        > something. There is no shred of evidence for this theory either (but at
        > least it doesn't involve making up any names). One thing I am sure of is
        > that the singer on the blues sides is a "real" blues singer and not just a
        > musician doing a vocal.
        >
        > One can only gasp at the splendid example provided by the notes of trying to
        > fit known names to musicians who sound nothing like them, especially the
        > naming of Charlie Gaines, followed by a note that he denied his presence!
        > Well, at least they admitted it.
        >
        > I was even more gob-smacked to read in the notes apropos the 31 October 1930
        > session by the Bingie Madison band that "they had accompanied Mamie Smith on
        > 19 February 1929 for the Okeh label". Since Mamie didn't record on that date
        > I presume this refers to the 19 February 1931 Jenny's Ball session which was
        > long credited to the Madison band. However so many members of the band
        > denied involvement over the years that even Brian Rust has dropped this
        > speculation and Rust 6 doesn't even allude to it (whereas in B & G we
        > thought we ought to mention it). There was nothing unintelligent about this
        > particular speculation; it just wasn't correct and it's an awful warning of
        > the way such speculations can become fact in people's minds without any
        > justification whatever.
        >
        > The three unissued trio sides are a delight, though it's very obvious why
        > they weren't issued at the time. They're a Sunday evening get together in
        > the Williams living room! Connie Berry (female by the way) gives a very good
        > account of herself at the piano and it's a shame this is her only confirmned
        > appearance on record.
        >
        > Anyone intending to order from Frog should note that the fax only works when
        > Dawn's not answering the phone, which is not good news for those calling
        > from overseas.
        >
        >
        >
        > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
        > howard@...
        > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


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      • Howard Rye
        ... I didn t say he was good. I said he was a real blues singer. Clear?!! Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 9, 2005
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          on 9/6/05 12:53, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:

          > The main reason for connecting them with Williams, if I understand Lord
          > correctly, is the repertoire, i.e. the numbers played at the session, which
          > were owned by Williams' publishing company. Another reason might be the use of
          > brass rather than string bass - at times the work does remind me of
          > contemporary Cyrus St. Clair. I have them on a Harrison LP, which isn't as
          > badly dubbed as I recalled. The first track on that has a - at first hearing -
          > rather "hammy" vocal which reminded me of Kellog Jefferson, or whatever the
          > vocalist on the Troy Floyd sides was called. Either he improves on the other
          > tracks or there is a second vocalist.

          I didn't say he was good. I said he was a real blues singer. Clear?!!

          Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
          howard@...
          Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
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