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Re: Our theme

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  • Tommer
    ... the authentic 20 s recordings when done well. Here are some reasons: There are very few of the greatest recordings such as King Oliver s Creole Jazz Band,
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 26, 2007
      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Mordechai Litzman <folke613@...> wrote:
      >
      > Personally, I enjoy very much listening to present day recordings of
      the authentic 20's recordings when done well. Here are some reasons:
      There are very few of the greatest recordings such as King Oliver's
      Creole Jazz Band, and it is a special thrill to hear a n"new" tune
      played in this style such as Panama with the Barrelhouse JB from
      Germany. In addition, good sound adds a lot to the recordings. Some
      bands make a great effort to acquire instruments from the 20's and
      finding very good recording venues (Don Vappie's Creole Serenaders).
      Chris Tyle's Silver Leaf JB recorded several tunes recorded by the
      Creole Band that were never issued etc.
      > Now, some people object to copying the old stuff exactly, but a
      good copy of a Rembrandt is also worth something, and sometimes a copy
      comes out better even than the original....


      A copy might come better than the original, however, in case it is, it
      means that the artists got the core ideas of the original (otherwise
      they can't outdo them!), so if they have the spirit, why try to copy
      and not create something new in that spirit?

      Although Johnny Dodds is IMO the greatest clarinetist, I welcome it
      was George Lewis that was rediscovered with Bunk and not Dodds (or
      even Jimmie Noone), because Lewis had a level of originality in his
      New Orleans Jazz that I doubt any other clarinetist that wasn't under
      recorded in the 1920's would have or try to show originality. Being
      unrecorded, Lewis wasn't limited to do what he did in the past (same
      for Robert 'Pete' Williams and Miss. Fred McDowel in the Blues-Folk
      rediscoveries world).

      Of course, if I lived at the time I would be looking for Dodds, for
      the simple fact that I would want to hear him playing live, however,
      since what is left for me is recordings, to hear another one with
      originality in the rediscovered era is more interesting than hearing
      old Johnny Dodds struggle to play like he was playing in his prime.

      tommersl
    • Mordechai Litzman
      You are 100% right - I got so excited by this performance that I wanted to share it right away with the group and didn t check my references. ... From: Robert
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 26, 2007
        You are 100% right - I got so excited by this performance that I wanted to share it right away with the group and didn't check my references.

        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Robert Smith <robert.smith@...>
        To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 8:02:52 AM
        Subject: [RedHotJazz] Our theme













        Dear Mordechai



        Maybe someone has changed the video, but Matthias Seuffert, Keith Nichols, and Nick Ward are playing Morton's 1928 recording of Shreveport Stomp (Omer Simeon, JRM, and Tommy Benford). Wolverine Blues was recorded first in 1925 (W.E. Burton, Volly de Faut, and JRM), and again (as you say) in 1927 (Johnny Dodds, JRM, and Baby Dodds).



        The video is a well-played version of the original recording, and is well worth listening to for its own sake.



        Kind Regards



        Bob Smith



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      • Mordechai Litzman
        When the Stomp Off label started in the 70s-80 s some of their first LPs featured the Peruna Jazz Men. Not everything has been reissued and one of my favorites
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 26, 2007
          When the Stomp Off label started in the 70s-80's some of their first LPs featured the Peruna Jazz Men. Not everything has been reissued and one of my favorites is Oriental Man done in the style of East Coast Trot with Johnny Dodds and Junie Cobb. To my surprise one of the band members is now putting up a number of videos of the 1980s and later performances of Peruna on YouTube. Usually the video quality is poor, but the sound is usually fair to good.
          Look under Peruna Jazz Band and/or Arne Hoejberg on YouTube and enjoy!

          ----- Original Message ----
          From: David W. Littlefield <dwlit@...>
          To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 9:37:21 AM
          Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Our theme













          I find the Peruna Jazzmen's recordings of many 20s classics to be

          very rewarding--right in the styles, energetic, not totally slavish,

          but they truly convey the joys of the originals.



          Most of their CDs are on Music Mecca, plus one on Stomp Off, a King

          Oliver album on GHB.



          --Sheik



          At 04:25 AM 09/26/07, Howard wrote:

          >Personally I found Don Vappie's Oliver re-creations rather sterile (in other

          >words too good copies). On the other hand, 'Creole Blues' (Vapielle VR971

          >CD) is a fascinating piece of original work "within the tradition". There's

          >never going to be agreement about this kind of output - hence the

          >controversy surrounding Michael White's records and indeed Wynton Marsalis's

          >traditional output. I'd recommend the records of Mark Braud also to anyone

          >wanting to study how the tradition might develop without losing its roots.

          >

          >on 25/9/07 17:47, Mordechai Litzman at

          ><mailto:folke613% 40yahoo.com>folke613@yahoo. com wrote:

          >

          >Personally, I enjoy very much listening to present day recordings of the

          >authentic 20's recordings when done well. Here are some reasons: There are

          >very few of the greatest recordings such as King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band,

          >and it is a special thrill to hear a n"new" tune played in this style such

          >as Panama with the Barrelhouse JB from Germany.

          >

          >Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB














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        • David Brown
          F 2541 Who s Sorry Now / Jealous F 2543 At the Jazz Band Ball / If I Had You The above are UK Parlophone catalogue numbers. Tommy Rogers Ballroom Dance
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 11, 2007
            F 2541 Who's Sorry Now / Jealous
            F 2543 At the Jazz Band Ball / If I Had You

            The above are UK Parlophone catalogue numbers. 'Tommy Rogers Ballroom Dance
            Orchestra directed by Harry Gold'

            'At The Jazz Band Ball' and further sides appear on 'Ballroom Dancing ---
            The Essential Collection' double CD on the West End label.

            Any details on these sides anybody ?

            Thanks Dave




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Howard Rye
            They were issued in about 1954/5. There are two more couplings: F2546 Yes, Sir, That s My Baby/Carolina In The Morning F2550 Sentimental Journey/Any Old Rag
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 11, 2007
              They were issued in about 1954/5.

              There are two more couplings:

              F2546 Yes, Sir, That's My Baby/Carolina In The Morning
              F2550 Sentimental Journey/Any Old Rag

              F2541/F2543 were also issued as an EP: GEP8511, and the other two as
              GEP8518.

              They are advertised as Quicksteps and Foxtrots "in tempo", so presumably
              they are of minimal jazz interest, which no doubt explains why they are not
              in jazz discographies.


              on 11/10/07 9:14, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

              F 2541 Who's Sorry Now / Jealous
              F 2543 At the Jazz Band Ball / If I Had You

              The above are UK Parlophone catalogue numbers. 'Tommy Rogers Ballroom Dance
              Orchestra directed by Harry Gold'

              'At The Jazz Band Ball' and further sides appear on 'Ballroom Dancing ---
              The Essential Collection' double CD on the West End label.


              Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
              howard@...
              Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • David Brown
              Many thanks as ever Howard. Did I really doubt that even such fringe esoterica was beyond your power ? Actually, the two sides I have heard Jazz Band Ball
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 12, 2007
                Many thanks as ever Howard. Did I really doubt that even such fringe
                esoterica was beyond your power ?

                Actually, the two sides I have heard 'Jazz Band Ball' and especially 'If I
                had You' are good British jazz of the period with no concessions to 'Come
                Dancing'.

                The trumpet is nice and of particular note the presence here, surprisingly
                replacing the de rigueur clarinet, of a soprano, or more likely, sopranino.

                I have no Gold discography covering this period. Can you come up with a
                contemporary Gold personnel ?

                Also can anybody come up with any sopranino recordings which may enlighten
                as to the capacity and range of this instrument ?

                Thanks again

                Dave



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Howard Rye
                Clarrie Henley s article on Gold in Grove doesn t have any bibliography that might clarify this. I assume therefore that he is not the subject of one of Tony
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 12, 2007
                  Clarrie Henley's article on Gold in Grove doesn't have any bibliography that
                  might clarify this. I assume therefore that he is not the subject of one of
                  Tony Middleton's discographies of British jazzers of this era. Tony is still
                  the man most likely to know.

                  If these are jazz performances it still is probably not surprising they
                  weren't spotted at the time, given that the British jazz world was so
                  divided at the time into trad followers and bop followers, and that they
                  were advertised as strict tempo. The hot Victor Sylvester's and Josephine
                  Bradley's were spotted immediately they appeared but that was in the 40s and
                  they were advertised as for jive dancing. I remember being played sides by
                  Victor Sylvester's Jive Band years ago as examples of the very best to which
                  British jazz could aspire, but these Golds were released to a much more
                  blinkered generation. The contemporary Joe Daniels and Freddy Randall output
                  was essentially regarded as ersatz jazz unworthy of documentation so what
                  chance did these stand?

                  If anyone can come up with a matrrix number we could get closer to the date.
                  I wouldn't put any significant money on there being a personnel in the files
                  though! (In fact I'd rather bet against it.)


                  on 12/10/07 8:47, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                  Many thanks as ever Howard. Did I really doubt that even such fringe
                  esoterica was beyond your power ?

                  Actually, the two sides I have heard 'Jazz Band Ball' and especially 'If I
                  had You' are good British jazz of the period with no concessions to 'Come
                  Dancing'.

                  The trumpet is nice and of particular note the presence here, surprisingly
                  replacing the de rigueur clarinet, of a soprano, or more likely, sopranino.

                  I have no Gold discography covering this period. Can you come up with a
                  contemporary Gold personnel ?



                  Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                  howard@...
                  Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • David Brown
                  My thanks to Nick for the following matrix nos. Who s Sorry Now - CE 15118-3A Jealous - CE 15119-3A At The Jazz Band Ball - CE 15120-1A If I Had You - CE
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 16, 2007
                    My thanks to Nick for the following matrix nos.

                    Who's Sorry Now - CE 15118-3A
                    Jealous - CE 15119-3A
                    At The Jazz Band Ball - CE 15120-1A
                    If I Had You - CE 15121-3A

                    Does this help Howard ? You are right about the divided UK scene but these
                    sides are sure better than Daniels and more in Randall territory although
                    nearer to swing than Condon. Interesting as they seem to predate the UK
                    'mainstream' revival.

                    Dave

                    PS Either nobody reads this or nobody can produce a sopranino solo in the
                    recorded history of jazz ?





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Howard Rye
                    I believe there are plenty in off-topic areas of jazz - Anthony Braxton and them cats. It was once widely believed (well by Brian Rust anyway) that Johnny
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 16, 2007
                      I believe there are plenty in off-topic areas of jazz - Anthony Braxton and
                      them cats.

                      It was once widely believed (well by Brian Rust anyway) that Johnny Dodds
                      played sopranino saxophone on at least some tracks of the 5 October 1923
                      King Oliver Gennett session. Haven't heard this theory lately. Laurie
                      Wright's 'King Oliver' doesn't even bother to dismiss it.

                      on 16/10/07 16:43, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                      PS Either nobody reads this or nobody can produce a sopranino solo in the
                      recorded history of jazz ?



                      Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                      howard@...
                      Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Howard Rye
                      Earlier than we thought then. Precise dates would need the files of course but these date out to somewhere around August 1954. There s a gap in Humphrey
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 16, 2007
                        Earlier than we thought then. Precise dates would need the files of course
                        but these date out to somewhere around August 1954. There's a gap in
                        Humphrey Lyttelton sessions between June and November and off-hand I've
                        failed to think of anyone else to compare with.

                        on 16/10/07 16:43, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                        My thanks to Nick for the following matrix nos.

                        Who's Sorry Now - CE 15118-3A
                        Jealous - CE 15119-3A
                        At The Jazz Band Ball - CE 15120-1A
                        If I Had You - CE 15121-3A




                        Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                        howard@...
                        Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Andrew Homzy
                        Here, we see James Carter playing jazz on the sopranino sax: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MklLQdBb6PU Cheers, Andrew Homzy, Montréal [Non-text portions of
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 16, 2007
                          Here, we see James Carter playing jazz on the sopranino sax:

                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MklLQdBb6PU


                          Cheers,

                          Andrew Homzy, Montréal




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • David Brown
                          Thanks Howard. Oh yes, the enigmatic clarinet on the Zulu s Ball session which never will be solved. Thanks Andrew, there are a couple more sopranino samples
                          Message 12 of 20 , Oct 17, 2007
                            Thanks Howard.

                            Oh yes, the enigmatic clarinet on the 'Zulu's Ball' session which never will
                            be solved.

                            Thanks Andrew, there are a couple more sopranino samples up Youtube, both
                            straight and curved, which I think go to prove why nobody ever played it
                            seriously.

                            The obvious candidate, as there is no bass sax, is Harry himself. But I can
                            find no listing anywhere of Harry on soprano let alone sopranino.

                            Does anybody know of any British soprano and/or sopranino players of this
                            period ?

                            Dave




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