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Re: [RedHotJazz] new Frog CDs/Birmingham Serenaders

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  • Michael Rader
    Hats off to Dawn Leppard for her determination to keep Frog alive - I know she s having to learn a lot, so it s an achievement to release three new CDs in half
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 2, 2005
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      Hats off to Dawn Leppard for her determination to keep Frog alive - I know she's having to learn a lot, so it's an achievement to release three new CDs in half a year.

      The Clarence Williams contains the session by the Birmingham Serenaders, which has been the subject of some controversy in the past: Tom Lord consigned it to the non-Clarence Williams section of his CW discography (Storyville,
      1976). When I spoke with David French about the session, he told me he was convinced it was a Williams item.

      The last reissue of which I am aware was on Harrison and the sound was rather muddy. There is some similarity with the contemporary Vocalions, but the vocal - the only contribution which might be Williams - is a deal lower in pitch. I'm obviously rushing to get my copy of the Frog, but does anyone know of more recent discussions of this item?

      The Frog also includes unissued items from the May 24 1938 session for Vocalion, but alas not the issued items. Does anyone know if these have been reissued?

      Cheers,

      Michael Rader

      RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com schrieb am 02.06.05 18:32:50:
      >
      > Frog's website is advertsing two new CDs: "Clarence Williams, 1930-
      > 1941" and "Five Birmingham Babies."
      >
      > Gerard
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >


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    • Howard Rye
      ... They are on Classics 953 Clarence Williams Vol. 13. Not heard. Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB howard@coppermill.demon.co.uk
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 3, 2005
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        on 3/6/05 6:47, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:

        > The Frog also includes unissued items from the May 24 1938 session for
        > Vocalion, but alas not the issued items. Does anyone know if these have been
        > reissued?

        They are on Classics 953 Clarence Williams Vol. 13. Not heard.

        Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
        howard@...
        Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
      • Michael Rader
        Thanks for the reply. Drat - I hate buying dubs of my old LPs, but the 1938 recordings probably weren t ever on LP. Has anyone heard them? Strange personnel
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 3, 2005
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          Thanks for the reply.

          Drat - I hate buying dubs of my old LPs, but the 1938 recordings probably weren't ever on LP. Has anyone heard them? Strange personnel with electric organ, and unfortunately not available by the RedHotJazz site. In the meantime, any opinions on the Birmingham Serenaders? After listening again, I don't think the vocal can be Clarence. There might be two different vocalists involved, however. The trumpet is good and hot and there's a very fluent brass bass. Not Clarence' regular companions, but he did on occasion borrow other peoples' bands.

          Michael Rader


          RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com schrieb am 03.06.05 10:29:19:
          >
          > on 3/6/05 6:47, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:
          >
          > > The Frog also includes unissued items from the May 24 1938 session for
          > > Vocalion, but alas not the issued items. Does anyone know if these have been
          > > reissued?
          >
          > They are on Classics 953 Clarence Williams Vol. 13. Not heard.
          >
          > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
          > howard@...
          > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >


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        • Howard Rye
          ... I have now heard these and I guess that the reason they re omitted from the Frog issue is that Clarence Williams plays no perceptible (if any) part in
          Message 4 of 8 , Jun 5, 2005
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            on 3/6/05 9:26, Howard Rye at howard@... wrote:

            > on 3/6/05 6:47, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:
            >
            >> The Frog also includes unissued items from the May 24 1938 session for
            >> Vocalion, but alas not the issued items. Does anyone know if these have been
            >> reissued?
            >
            > They are on Classics 953 Clarence Williams Vol. 13. Not heard.
            >
            I have now heard these and I guess that the reason they're omitted from the
            Frog issue is that Clarence Williams plays no perceptible (if any) part in
            them! Babe Matthews's singing is to my ears quite delightful, Connie Berry
            is a perfectly adequate pianist, Cozy Cole drums up a storm on the
            instrumental. Don Baker on organ is underwhelming on the vocal numbers, all
            too overwhelming on the instrumental.




            Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
            howard@...
            Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
          • Michael Rader
            Thanks for listening. It sounds very much like what I was expecting. It is to be hoped that the unissued tracks on Frog will come as a pleasant surprise. Best
            Message 5 of 8 , Jun 7, 2005
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              Thanks for listening. It sounds very much like what I was expecting. It is to be hoped that the unissued tracks on Frog will come as a pleasant surprise.

              Best wishes,

              Michael


              RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com schrieb am 05.06.05 15:37:10:
              >
              > on 3/6/05 9:26, Howard Rye at howard@... wrote:
              >
              > > on 3/6/05 6:47, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:
              > >
              > >> The Frog also includes unissued items from the May 24 1938 session for
              > >> Vocalion, but alas not the issued items. Does anyone know if these have been
              > >> reissued?
              > >
              > > They are on Classics 953 Clarence Williams Vol. 13. Not heard.
              > >
              > I have now heard these and I guess that the reason they're omitted from the
              > Frog issue is that Clarence Williams plays no perceptible (if any) part in
              > them! Babe Matthews's singing is to my ears quite delightful, Connie Berry
              > is a perfectly adequate pianist, Cozy Cole drums up a storm on the
              > instrumental. Don Baker on organ is underwhelming on the vocal numbers, all
              > too overwhelming on the instrumental.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
              > howard@...
              > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


              __________________________________________________________
              Mit WEB.DE FreePhone mit hoechster Qualitaet ab 0 Ct./Min.
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            • Howard Rye
              ... There isn t a shred of evidence to connect these with Clarence, unless you believe in the Pete Brown connection and my ears certainly don t. Any connection
              Message 6 of 8 , Jun 9, 2005
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                on 3/6/05 12:13, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:

                > Drat - I hate buying dubs of my old LPs, but the 1938 recordings probably
                > weren't ever on LP. Has anyone heard them? Strange personnel with electric
                > organ, and unfortunately not available by the RedHotJazz site. In the
                > meantime, any opinions on the Birmingham Serenaders? After listening again, I
                > don't think the vocal can be Clarence. There might be two different vocalists
                > involved, however. The trumpet is good and hot and there's a very fluent brass
                > bass. Not Clarence' regular companions, but he did on occasion borrow other
                > peoples' bands.

                There isn't a shred of evidence to connect these with Clarence, unless you
                believe in the Pete Brown connection and my ears certainly don't. Any
                connection with Clarence was rejected both by the Storyville study and by
                Tom Lord's scholarly study of Williams. (This is not the same Tom Lord as
                the Canadian discograher in case anyone thinks it is.)

                Now that I've heard Frog DGF57, which is no doubt better dubbed than
                whatever I had them on before, I find I still think what I thought when I
                first heard the 78s umpty-tump years ago (I do remember when but I'm not
                saying).

                This is a territory band. The band name could be trying to tell us
                something. There is no shred of evidence for this theory either (but at
                least it doesn't involve making up any names). One thing I am sure of is
                that the singer on the blues sides is a "real" blues singer and not just a
                musician doing a vocal.

                One can only gasp at the splendid example provided by the notes of trying to
                fit known names to musicians who sound nothing like them, especially the
                naming of Charlie Gaines, followed by a note that he denied his presence!
                Well, at least they admitted it.

                I was even more gob-smacked to read in the notes apropos the 31 October 1930
                session by the Bingie Madison band that "they had accompanied Mamie Smith on
                19 February 1929 for the Okeh label". Since Mamie didn't record on that date
                I presume this refers to the 19 February 1931 Jenny's Ball session which was
                long credited to the Madison band. However so many members of the band
                denied involvement over the years that even Brian Rust has dropped this
                speculation and Rust 6 doesn't even allude to it (whereas in B & G we
                thought we ought to mention it). There was nothing unintelligent about this
                particular speculation; it just wasn't correct and it's an awful warning of
                the way such speculations can become fact in people's minds without any
                justification whatever.

                The three unissued trio sides are a delight, though it's very obvious why
                they weren't issued at the time. They're a Sunday evening get together in
                the Williams living room! Connie Berry (female by the way) gives a very good
                account of herself at the piano and it's a shame this is her only confirmned
                appearance on record.

                Anyone intending to order from Frog should note that the fax only works when
                Dawn's not answering the phone, which is not good news for those calling
                from overseas.



                Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                howard@...
                Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
              • Michael Rader
                The main reason for connecting them with Williams, if I understand Lord correctly, is the repertoire, i.e. the numbers played at the session, which were owned
                Message 7 of 8 , Jun 9, 2005
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                  The main reason for connecting them with Williams, if I understand Lord correctly, is the repertoire, i.e. the numbers played at the session, which were owned by Williams' publishing company. Another reason might be the use of brass rather than string bass - at times the work does remind me of contemporary Cyrus St. Clair. I have them on a Harrison LP, which isn't as badly dubbed as I recalled. The first track on that has a - at first hearing - rather "hammy" vocal which reminded me of Kellog Jefferson, or whatever the vocalist on the Troy Floyd sides was called. Either he improves on the other tracks or there is a second vocalist. As I said, David French was convinced that these were by a Williams band...

                  By the way, who wrote the booklet notes?

                  When I tried to fax Dawn last, I got a "line engaged" signal for almost the whole morning and she sent me an e-mail saying it was better to send a letter anyway, unless you can tell her all you need to in an e-mail.

                  Michael Rader

                  >
                  > There isn't a shred of evidence to connect these with Clarence, unless you
                  > believe in the Pete Brown connection and my ears certainly don't. Any
                  > connection with Clarence was rejected both by the Storyville study and by
                  > Tom Lord's scholarly study of Williams. (This is not the same Tom Lord as
                  > the Canadian discograher in case anyone thinks it is.)
                  >
                  > Now that I've heard Frog DGF57, which is no doubt better dubbed than
                  > whatever I had them on before, I find I still think what I thought when I
                  > first heard the 78s umpty-tump years ago (I do remember when but I'm not
                  > saying).
                  >
                  > This is a territory band. The band name could be trying to tell us
                  > something. There is no shred of evidence for this theory either (but at
                  > least it doesn't involve making up any names). One thing I am sure of is
                  > that the singer on the blues sides is a "real" blues singer and not just a
                  > musician doing a vocal.
                  >
                  > One can only gasp at the splendid example provided by the notes of trying to
                  > fit known names to musicians who sound nothing like them, especially the
                  > naming of Charlie Gaines, followed by a note that he denied his presence!
                  > Well, at least they admitted it.
                  >
                  > I was even more gob-smacked to read in the notes apropos the 31 October 1930
                  > session by the Bingie Madison band that "they had accompanied Mamie Smith on
                  > 19 February 1929 for the Okeh label". Since Mamie didn't record on that date
                  > I presume this refers to the 19 February 1931 Jenny's Ball session which was
                  > long credited to the Madison band. However so many members of the band
                  > denied involvement over the years that even Brian Rust has dropped this
                  > speculation and Rust 6 doesn't even allude to it (whereas in B & G we
                  > thought we ought to mention it). There was nothing unintelligent about this
                  > particular speculation; it just wasn't correct and it's an awful warning of
                  > the way such speculations can become fact in people's minds without any
                  > justification whatever.
                  >
                  > The three unissued trio sides are a delight, though it's very obvious why
                  > they weren't issued at the time. They're a Sunday evening get together in
                  > the Williams living room! Connie Berry (female by the way) gives a very good
                  > account of herself at the piano and it's a shame this is her only confirmned
                  > appearance on record.
                  >
                  > Anyone intending to order from Frog should note that the fax only works when
                  > Dawn's not answering the phone, which is not good news for those calling
                  > from overseas.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                  > howard@...
                  > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  ______________________________________________________________
                  Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS!
                  Jetzt bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://f.web.de/?mc=021193
                • Howard Rye
                  ... I didn t say he was good. I said he was a real blues singer. Clear?!! Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jun 9, 2005
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                    on 9/6/05 12:53, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:

                    > The main reason for connecting them with Williams, if I understand Lord
                    > correctly, is the repertoire, i.e. the numbers played at the session, which
                    > were owned by Williams' publishing company. Another reason might be the use of
                    > brass rather than string bass - at times the work does remind me of
                    > contemporary Cyrus St. Clair. I have them on a Harrison LP, which isn't as
                    > badly dubbed as I recalled. The first track on that has a - at first hearing -
                    > rather "hammy" vocal which reminded me of Kellog Jefferson, or whatever the
                    > vocalist on the Troy Floyd sides was called. Either he improves on the other
                    > tracks or there is a second vocalist.

                    I didn't say he was good. I said he was a real blues singer. Clear?!!

                    Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                    howard@...
                    Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
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