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Re: [RedHotJazz] Dolly MIne, Was: Ida Cox's "Coffin Blues"

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  • Michael Rader
    Speaking of Bob Shoffner: By chance I was reading The Essential Jazz Records Vol.1 by Max Harrison, Charles Fox and Eric Thacker yesterday. The entry for a
    Message 1 of 26 , Sep 10, 2007
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      Speaking of Bob Shoffner: By chance I was reading "The Essential Jazz Records Vol.1" by Max Harrison, Charles Fox and Eric Thacker yesterday. The entry for a double album by Luis Russell contains a note that a musician (I think Tommy Benford) said that Dolly Jones played cornet in place of Shoffner on "Dolly Mine" from the 17 November 1926 session by Russell's Heebie Jeebie Stompers. Another chance for people to try their ears: Dolly is confirmed on an Albert Wynn date (When, That Creole Band) and Shoffner is said to play on the other three Heebie Jeebie Stompers. Now is it Dolly Jones?

      > "There are certainly many of Oliver's trademarks on this, but the tone is a
      > little too sweet to be him and it is more likely someone else trying to play
      > like him. Shoffner is a possible candidate but in the absence of any firm
      > evidence it is safe to leave him as 'unknown'."
      >

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    • Howard Rye
      ... Benford, who be it noted was not there, made this claim to Laurie Wright in about 1982 [Storyville 100, p.125]. At the mention of Dolly Jones we asked
      Message 2 of 26 , Sep 10, 2007
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        on 10/9/07 13:24, Michael Rader at Rader.Michael@... wrote:

        > Speaking of Bob Shoffner: By chance I was reading "The Essential Jazz Records
        > Vol.1" by Max Harrison, Charles Fox and Eric Thacker yesterday. The entry for
        > a double album by Luis Russell contains a note that a musician (I think Tommy
        > Benford) said that Dolly Jones played cornet in place of Shoffner on "Dolly
        > Mine" from the 17 November 1926 session by Russell's Heebie Jeebie Stompers.
        > Another chance for people to try their ears: Dolly is confirmed on an Albert
        > Wynn date (When, That Creole Band) and Shoffner is said to play on the other
        > three Heebie Jeebie Stompers. Now is it Dolly Jones?

        Benford, who be it noted was not there, made this claim to Laurie Wright in
        about 1982 [Storyville 100, p.125].

        "At the mention of Dolly Jones we asked Tommy how well he knew her and her
        style and he replied that if he heard her, he would recognise her."

        Laurie then played him Sweet Mumtaz/Dolly Mine without saying what it was.

        "Tommy immediately picked out the second title [Dolly Mine] as being by her
        but was adamant she was not on the other three".

        Presumably the other coupling was played after Tommy had identified Dolly on
        Dolly Mine.

        Tommy commented:

        "Dolly was as good as her mother [this is Diyaw Jones, who has no issued
        recordings as far as anyone knows], perhaps a little more advanced
        technically, but they were both very good. If you listen carefully, you'll
        hear the trumpet on the other three tracks is a little heavier than the one
        I'm sure is Dolly."

        This has to be taken seriously but I have never been able to convince myself
        and I know this is also the view of Chris Hillman, unless he has changed it.

        The tune probably is named for Dolly Jones.

        Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
        howard@...
        Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
      • David Brown
        Same trumpet on all four sides, no trace of Dolly. The style is attenuated Hot 5 Louis. As early as August/September 1925, on the Austin/Cox sides adjacent to
        Message 3 of 26 , Sep 11, 2007
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          Same trumpet on all four sides, no trace of Dolly. The style is attenuated
          Hot 5 Louis.

          As early as August/September 1925, on the Austin/Cox sides adjacent to
          'Coffin', Shoffner is already displaying Louis influence.

          On this evidence the trumpet on 'Coffin' is therefore too sparse to be him.


          Dave




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        • David Brown
          Just heard the Wynn Gut Bucket 5 When & That Creole Band from 26 June 1926, which are supposed bona fide Dolly Jones. The trumpet is very similar to
          Message 4 of 26 , Sep 12, 2007
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            Just heard the Wynn Gut Bucket 5 'When' & 'That Creole Band' from 26 June
            1926, which are supposed bona fide Dolly Jones. The trumpet is very similar
            to supposed Shoffner on the Russell Heebie Jeebies sides and, on this
            evidence, very easy to confuse the two. Dolly is possibly more limited in
            technique and range.

            According to Rust, she appears nowhere else.

            What do we know about her and how was she placed on the Wynns ?

            Dave


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          • Howard Rye
            Gosh, don t you love asking awkward questions David! References given in Blackstone s Index to Jazz for the personnel on the Wynns are Down Beat 1 January
            Message 5 of 26 , Sep 12, 2007
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              Gosh, don''t you love asking awkward questions David!

              References given in Blackstone's Index to Jazz for the personnel on the
              Wynns are Down Beat 1 January 1940, Jazz Information, 8 November 1940. The
              latter reference only establishes Barney Bigard's presence. Don't have the
              Down Beat.

              Wynn was in Europe in the 20s and 30s so could have been interviewed by
              discographers very early, but if so the personnel hadn't reached Schleman.

              Quick biographical summary:
              born Chicago, about 1906, began playing with family band led by her mother
              Diyaw, also a trumpeter, on the streets of St. Louis (famous because they
              recruited Josephine Baker as a dancer, see all biographies of La Baker).
              After Dolly's father died Tommy Benford joined them on drums. In 1922 she
              moved to Kansas City and worked with George James. With Ma Rainey in
              Chicago, 1925, recorded with Albert Wynn, 1926, toured with Ida Cox, 1928.
              Married Jimmy Hutchinson and used his name. Joined Walter Barnes, 1931. Own
              band, 12 Spirits of Rhythm, 1932; worked with Lil Armstrong later that year.
              By this time she had reverted to Jones, but shortly afterwards both she and
              her mother adopted the professional name Armenra (presumbly for the Egyptian
              gods). Appears in the 1936 film "Swing" billed as Doli Armena. [Move heaven
              and earth to see this if you can.] In 1937 member of Mezz Mezzrow's
              Disciples of Swing. Returned to Chicago 1938, worked again with Barnes. Led
              own all-female band in 1939. By August 1940 back in New York with Sammy
              Price's Blusicians, from 1943 in Eddie Durham's (otherwise) all-female band.
              Later career mysterious but she evidently continued to play and is known to
              have taken part in workshop bands with Eddie Barefield in the 70s.

              This is summarized from my own article on her in New Grove.


              on 12/9/07 9:09, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

              Just heard the Wynn Gut Bucket 5 'When' & 'That Creole Band' from 26 June
              1926, which are supposed bona fide Dolly Jones. The trumpet is very similar
              to supposed Shoffner on the Russell Heebie Jeebies sides and, on this
              evidence, very easy to confuse the two. Dolly is possibly more limited in
              technique and range.

              According to Rust, she appears nowhere else.

              What do we know about her and how was she placed on the Wynns ?



              Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
              howard@...
              Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • David Brown
              Many thanks as ever Howard. I m saving up for a Grove. On the evidence of these two sides she was good and definitely the best female trumpeter, although
              Message 6 of 26 , Sep 12, 2007
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                Many thanks as ever Howard. I'm saving up for a Grove.

                On the evidence of these two sides she was good and definitely the best
                female trumpeter, although little competition.

                As such she might have been expected to be good box office and one wonders
                then that the discography is so small.

                If not told this were Dolly, my ears would accept Shoffner. Like Shoffner,
                it is a fluent and flexible Louis derived style and this is quite early for
                such a manifestation. Does it sound like a woman ?

                Now where are we gonna find a 1st January 1940 Downbeat ? Anybody ?

                Dave




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • loerchen2@aol.com
                I can get to a 1940 DownBeat on Saturday, if no one finds one before that! Sue ... From: David Brown To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                Message 7 of 26 , Sep 12, 2007
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                  I can get to a 1940 DownBeat on Saturday, if no one finds one before that!



                  Sue


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
                  To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 8:54 am
                  Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Dolly Mine, Was: Ida Cox's "Coffin Blues"







                  Many thanks as ever Howard. I'm saving up for a Grove.

                  On the evidence of these two sides she was good and definitely the best
                  female trumpeter, although little competition.

                  As such she might have been expected to be good box office and one wonders
                  then that the discography is so small.

                  If not told this were Dolly, my ears would accept Shoffner. Like Shoffner,
                  it is a fluent and flexible Louis derived style and this is quite early for
                  such a manifestation. Does it sound like a woman ?

                  Now where are we gonna find a 1st January 1940 Downbeat ? Anybody ?

                  Dave

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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                • Howard Rye
                  I would certainly argue the case for Valaida Snow against that definitely the best female trumpeter but I don t particularly want to. It s a rather small
                  Message 8 of 26 , Sep 12, 2007
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                    I would certainly argue the case for Valaida Snow against that "definitely
                    the best
                    female trumpeter" but I don't particularly want to. It's a rather small
                    sample and Valaida does have the advantage of being the only female horn
                    player of the vintage years to be allowed a discography of sufficient size
                    for proper judgement.

                    What would "sounding like a woman" sound like?

                    There are some pianists one might in various ways guess are women without
                    hearing their voices (Cleo Brown, Hadda Brooks, Rose Murphy) but horn
                    players? Would anyone know that Vi Burnside, probably the most significant
                    female horn player to make it on to record in the 78-era, was a woman,
                    without being told?

                    I really don't know the answer to this question.

                    on 12/9/07 14:54, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                    Many thanks as ever Howard. I'm saving up for a Grove.

                    On the evidence of these two sides she was good and definitely the best
                    female trumpeter, although little competition.

                    As such she might have been expected to be good box office and one wonders
                    then that the discography is so small.

                    If not told this were Dolly, my ears would accept Shoffner. Like Shoffner,
                    it is a fluent and flexible Louis derived style and this is quite early for
                    such a manifestation. Does it sound like a woman ?

                    Now where are we gonna find a 1st January 1940 Downbeat ? Anybody ?

                    Dave

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                    Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                    howard@...
                    Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • David Brown
                    Thanks Sue -- I don t think anybody is likely to beat you to it. Howard. I love Valaida but the best trumpet on her sides is from Duncan Whyte, Johnny Claes
                    Message 9 of 26 , Sep 12, 2007
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                      Thanks Sue -- I don't think anybody is likely to beat you to it.

                      Howard. I love Valaida but the best trumpet on her sides is from Duncan
                      Whyte, Johnny Claes and possibly Harry Owen --- although I forget how good
                      he is.

                      Her chops are weak and maybe I wrongly attribute that to her sex. Leora
                      Henderson and Maxine Sullivan are the only other female brass players from
                      our period I can conjure. Anymore ?

                      The supposed Dolly is a few classes above which makes it very surprising
                      that she never re-appeared on record.

                      Dave




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • howardrye
                      ... from Duncan ... forget how good ... This is a persistent and seemingly ineradicable myth presumably originating in mere sexism. Periodically people
                      Message 10 of 26 , Sep 12, 2007
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                        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown"
                        <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
                        > Howard. I love Valaida but the best trumpet on her sides is
                        from Duncan
                        > Whyte, Johnny Claes and possibly Harry Owen --- although I
                        forget how good
                        > he is.

                        This is a persistent and seemingly ineradicable myth
                        presumably originating in mere sexism. Periodically people
                        discover that not all the trumpet on Valaida's British records is by
                        her and even that she doesn't play at all on some of them. This
                        was perfectly well known at the time and solo orders sometimes
                        appear in contemporary reviews.

                        I did a complete breakdown of the solos for the Harlequin
                        Valaida set , which is republished in my Visiting Firemen article
                        in Storyville 1998-9. I don't claim it's 100% accurate (what is?)
                        but it is based on contemporary sources and aural comparison
                        using especially the trumpet playing which cannot be Valaida
                        because she is singing. Neither Whyte nor Owen was remotely
                        capable of producing the idiomatic playing heard on these
                        records. Claes is a lot better of course but on tracks where
                        they're both heard there's no difficulty in telling them apart.

                        To judge Valaida without this complication turn to the July 1940
                        Copenhagen session where she is the only trumpeter. Weak?
                        Give me strength! (But not as strong as Dolly maybe)
                      • Nick Dellow
                        Valaida is an utterly superb trumpet player, and is certainly idiomatic in that she more or less conforms to the Armstrong idiom! But don t dismiss that
                        Message 11 of 26 , Sep 12, 2007
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                          Valaida is an utterly superb trumpet player, and is certainly "idiomatic" in
                          that she more or less conforms to the Armstrong idiom! But don't dismiss
                          that Whyte trumpeter - he's pretty good too, even if he did spend years
                          frustrated on the fringes. Incidentally, on one take of "Tiger Rag"
                          (Parlophone) Valaida can be heard just after the end of the music stating,
                          rather meekly, "Oh Shit!" I wonder why, as the performance that proceeds
                          the profanity seems praiseworthy.



                          On 12/09/2007, howardrye <howard@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>, "David
                          > Brown"
                          > <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
                          > > Howard. I love Valaida but the best trumpet on her sides is
                          > from Duncan
                          > > Whyte, Johnny Claes and possibly Harry Owen --- although I
                          > forget how good
                          > > he is.
                          >
                          > This is a persistent and seemingly ineradicable myth
                          > presumably originating in mere sexism. Periodically people
                          > discover that not all the trumpet on Valaida's British records is by
                          > her and even that she doesn't play at all on some of them. This
                          > was perfectly well known at the time and solo orders sometimes
                          > appear in contemporary reviews.
                          >
                          > I did a complete breakdown of the solos for the Harlequin
                          > Valaida set , which is republished in my Visiting Firemen article
                          > in Storyville 1998-9. I don't claim it's 100% accurate (what is?)
                          > but it is based on contemporary sources and aural comparison
                          > using especially the trumpet playing which cannot be Valaida
                          > because she is singing. Neither Whyte nor Owen was remotely
                          > capable of producing the idiomatic playing heard on these
                          > records. Claes is a lot better of course but on tracks where
                          > they're both heard there's no difficulty in telling them apart.
                          >
                          > To judge Valaida without this complication turn to the July 1940
                          > Copenhagen session where she is the only trumpeter. Weak?
                          > Give me strength! (But not as strong as Dolly maybe)
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • howardrye
                          ... idiomatic in ... She wasn t dubbed Little Louis by her publicity machine for nothing. And she described herself as Satchmo s pupil . That s certainly
                          Message 12 of 26 , Sep 12, 2007
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                            --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Nick Dellow"
                            <nick.dellow@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Valaida is an utterly superb trumpet player, and is certainly
                            "idiomatic" in
                            > that she more or less conforms to the Armstrong idiom!

                            She wasn't dubbed "Little Louis" by her publicity machine for
                            nothing. And she described herself as "Satchmo's pupil". That's
                            certainly where she meant to position herself!
                          • David Brown
                            Howard & Nick Very good to hear such enthusiasm for Valaida. My next task shall be to re-visit the sides which I have on two WRC LPs and try and sort the
                            Message 13 of 26 , Sep 13, 2007
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                              Howard & Nick

                              Very good to hear such enthusiasm for Valaida. My next task shall be to
                              re-visit the sides which I have on two WRC LPs and try and sort the
                              trumpets. Is not the 'Oh Shit' excised from these transcriptions ?

                              To be honest it's many moons since I heard these but , apart from Valaida's
                              singing, I remember the jewel in the crown to be Whyte, a very impressive
                              and quite original British trumpet stylist. Now where is there more of him ?
                              There were some fine British trumpeters at that time. Claes is perhaps a
                              shade too flashy. Owen escapes memory.

                              Is there a satisfactory Valaida CD ?

                              Dave

                              PS Ann Cooper on the Harlem Hamfats, rather a sad anti-climax after the
                              superb Morand.



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • howardrye
                              ... As far as I know, the Harlequin set which contains all the European recordings is still available. This a product of Interstate Music. HQCD12 Volume 1
                              Message 14 of 26 , Sep 13, 2007
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                                --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown"
                                <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:

                                > Is there a satisfactory Valaida CD ?

                                As far as I know, the Harlequin set which contains all the
                                European recordings is still available. This a product of
                                Interstate Music.

                                HQCD12 Volume 1 1935-1937
                                HQCD18 Volume 2 1935-1940

                                The reason for the overlap is the unissued Poor Butterfly from
                                the first session, a most interesting recording which wasn't
                                available when Volume 1 was issued.

                                If I say it as shouldn't these have very detailed and thorough
                                notes, by myself on the British recordings and by Morten
                                Clausen on the Scandinavian recordings. Morten is the
                                researcher who discovered the true story of her experiences in
                                occupied Denmark.

                                There is a Classics set but I'd be astounded if this isn't cloned
                                from the Harlequin and it certainly doesn't have the notes!
                              • Nick Dellow
                                Dear David, I m pretty sure the Oh shit has been deleted IF indeed WRC actually used that take (it is take 1 - take three is clean as it were!). I no
                                Message 15 of 26 , Sep 13, 2007
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                                  Dear David,



                                  I'm pretty sure the "Oh shit" has been deleted IF indeed WRC actually used
                                  that take (it is take 1 - take three is "clean" as it were!). I no longer
                                  have the LPs - prefer listening to the 78s!



                                  As for Duncan Whyte, he didn't visit the recording studios too often. He was
                                  a member of Billy Mason's band at the time of the Valaida recordings and of
                                  course it is Mason's band that backs her on the earlier Parlophone sessions
                                  (being replaced by a studio band under the control of George Scott Wood,
                                  which is nowhere near as good as Mason's outfit despite the presence of
                                  Freddy Gardner). Mason's band also recorded sans Valaida a few months later
                                  (for Decca), and Whyte is heavily featured on all four sides, as is Buddy
                                  Featherstonhaugh.



                                  Featherstonhaugh is another soloist on those earlier Valaida sides that
                                  should be singled out for praise. And he's another rare visitor to the
                                  studios, I suspect because he was a poor reader. He re-surfaces in the 1940s
                                  but I must say that I find his efforts on these later recordings to be poor
                                  compared to his playing in the early to mid 1930s. He spent much of the
                                  post-war years dabbling with racing cars!



                                  Whyte toured with his own sextet for ENSA during the war and worked with
                                  Harry Gold after the war, but I haven't heard any recordings. In the later
                                  1940s he formed another band that played residencies in his native Scotland
                                  (like George Chisholm, he hailed from Glasgow - another fiery Scot!). In the
                                  1950s and 1960s, he freelanced around the UK and was leading a Dixieland
                                  band until shortly before his death in 1988 (he even had a short stint as a
                                  DJ in Ayr in the early 1970s!).





                                  Nick




                                  On 13/09/2007, David Brown <johnhaleysims@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Howard & Nick
                                  >
                                  > Very good to hear such enthusiasm for Valaida. My next task shall be to
                                  > re-visit the sides which I have on two WRC LPs and try and sort the
                                  > trumpets. Is not the 'Oh Shit' excised from these transcriptions ?
                                  >
                                  > To be honest it's many moons since I heard these but , apart from
                                  > Valaida's
                                  > singing, I remember the jewel in the crown to be Whyte, a very impressive
                                  > and quite original British trumpet stylist. Now where is there more of him
                                  > ?
                                  > There were some fine British trumpeters at that time. Claes is perhaps a
                                  > shade too flashy. Owen escapes memory.
                                  >
                                  > Is there a satisfactory Valaida CD ?
                                  >
                                  > Dave
                                  >
                                  > PS Ann Cooper on the Harlem Hamfats, rather a sad anti-climax after the
                                  > superb Morand.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Michael Rader
                                  So what is the true story about Denmark? Most sources say she was in a concentration camp for a year and a half before she was exchanged , presumably for
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Sep 13, 2007
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                                    So what is the true story about Denmark? Most sources say she was in a concentration camp for a year and a half before she was exchanged , presumably for prisoners-of-war. But Wikipedia states that she was imprisoned due to theft and posession of drugs. You could of course tell us all to buy the Harlequin CDs, which are indeed still around. Apart from the Classics which are partly priced ridiculously, there is also a DRG double album usually available from US sources at low prices.

                                    The WRC does have take 1 of Tiger Rag and there is a voice to be heard at the end, although this is faded.

                                    Michael Rader

                                    (Howard Rye):
                                    > If I say it as shouldn't these have very detailed and thorough
                                    > notes, by myself on the British recordings and by Morten
                                    > Clausen on the Scandinavian recordings. Morten is the
                                    > researcher who discovered the true story of her experiences in
                                    > occupied Denmark.
                                    >

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                                  • Nick Dellow
                                    I expect the concentration camp episode will be discussed in detail in Mark Miller s new biography High Hat, Trumpet, and Rhythm: The Life and Music of
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Sep 13, 2007
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                                      I expect the concentration camp episode will be discussed in detail in Mark
                                      Miller's new biography "High Hat, Trumpet, and Rhythm: The Life and Music of
                                      Valaida Snow", which will be out next month.

                                      One can pre-order this at Amazon, and no doubt other such Internet sites (as
                                      well as bookshops of course!).

                                      Miller's previous work includes the excellent "Some Hustling This: Taking
                                      Jazz to the World, 1914-1929".


                                      Nick


                                      On 13/09/2007, Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > So what is the true story about Denmark? Most sources say she was in a
                                      > concentration camp for a year and a half before she was exchanged ,
                                      > presumably for prisoners-of-war. But Wikipedia states that she was
                                      > imprisoned due to theft and posession of drugs. You could of course tell us
                                      > all to buy the Harlequin CDs, which are indeed still around. Apart from the
                                      > Classics which are partly priced ridiculously, there is also a DRG double
                                      > album usually available from US sources at low prices.
                                      >
                                      > The WRC does have take 1 of Tiger Rag and there is a voice to be heard at
                                      > the end, although this is faded.
                                      >
                                      > Michael Rader
                                      >
                                      > (Howard Rye):
                                      > > If I say it as shouldn't these have very detailed and thorough
                                      > > notes, by myself on the British recordings and by Morten
                                      > > Clausen on the Scandinavian recordings. Morten is the
                                      > > researcher who discovered the true story of her experiences in
                                      > > occupied Denmark.
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > ______________________________________________________________________
                                      > XXL-Speicher, PC-Virenschutz, Spartarife & mehr: Nur im WEB.DE Club!
                                      > Jetzt testen! http://produkte.web.de/club/?mc=021130
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • howardrye
                                      ... detail in Mark ... Life and Music of ... I m sure you re right about that but in the meantime let s just say that the Wikipedia story is essentially
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Sep 13, 2007
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                                        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Nick Dellow"
                                        <nick.dellow@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I expect the concentration camp episode will be discussed in
                                        detail in Mark
                                        > Miller's new biography "High Hat, Trumpet, and Rhythm: The
                                        Life and Music of
                                        > Valaida Snow", which will be out next month.

                                        I'm sure you're right about that but in the meantime let's just say
                                        that the Wikipedia story is essentially correct and she never was
                                        in any concentration camp.

                                        Before anyone re-listens to the British sides and convinces
                                        themselves that her solos "couldn't possibly be played by a
                                        woman" and therefore must be by Duncan Whyte or the Angel
                                        Gabriel or someone, may I recommend two other comparisions
                                        on which she is the only trumpeter.

                                        First Jacques Bureau's private recording of her playing 'St. Louis
                                        Blues' with Django at the Moulin de la Galette on 30 June 1938.
                                        This is on Volume 8 of Frémeaux's 'Intégrale Django Reinhardt'
                                        (FA308).

                                        The other is no doubt more difficult: her film appearance with Joe
                                        Turner at the piano in Robert Diodmak's 1939 film Pièges. This
                                        was available on VHS from FilmOffice, who may or may not have
                                        transferred it to DVD.

                                        This is Valaida's only pre-war film appearance. Despite virtually
                                        all books on jazz film (copying one another though sometimes
                                        claiming to have seen it) she is not in Pierre Chenel's 1936
                                        melodrama L'Alibi. The Bobby Martin band does appear in this
                                        film and the singer Thelma Minor is credited but is only seen
                                        briefly with the band; her vocal evidently having hit the
                                        cutting-room floor.
                                      • Nick Dellow
                                        A documentary available on youtube is of interest (despite the sync problems!). It includes brief clips of her playing the trumpet. The link is as follows:-
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Sep 13, 2007
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                                          A documentary available on youtube is of interest (despite the sync
                                          problems!). It includes brief clips of her playing the trumpet. The link is
                                          as follows:-

                                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6e7ye-fiJA


                                          Nick


                                          On 13/09/2007, howardrye <howard@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com>, "Nick
                                          > Dellow"
                                          > <nick.dellow@...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > I expect the concentration camp episode will be discussed in
                                          > detail in Mark
                                          > > Miller's new biography "High Hat, Trumpet, and Rhythm: The
                                          > Life and Music of
                                          > > Valaida Snow", which will be out next month.
                                          >
                                          > I'm sure you're right about that but in the meantime let's just say
                                          > that the Wikipedia story is essentially correct and she never was
                                          > in any concentration camp.
                                          >
                                          > Before anyone re-listens to the British sides and convinces
                                          > themselves that her solos "couldn't possibly be played by a
                                          > woman" and therefore must be by Duncan Whyte or the Angel
                                          > Gabriel or someone, may I recommend two other comparisions
                                          > on which she is the only trumpeter.
                                          >
                                          > First Jacques Bureau's private recording of her playing 'St. Louis
                                          > Blues' with Django at the Moulin de la Galette on 30 June 1938.
                                          > This is on Volume 8 of Frémeaux's 'Intégrale Django Reinhardt'
                                          > (FA308).
                                          >
                                          > The other is no doubt more difficult: her film appearance with Joe
                                          > Turner at the piano in Robert Diodmak's 1939 film Pièges. This
                                          > was available on VHS from FilmOffice, who may or may not have
                                          > transferred it to DVD.
                                          >
                                          > This is Valaida's only pre-war film appearance. Despite virtually
                                          > all books on jazz film (copying one another though sometimes
                                          > claiming to have seen it) she is not in Pierre Chenel's 1936
                                          > melodrama L'Alibi. The Bobby Martin band does appear in this
                                          > film and the singer Thelma Minor is credited but is only seen
                                          > briefly with the band; her vocal evidently having hit the
                                          > cutting-room floor.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Olivier Douville
                                          Help ! I need somme informations bout the life of the drummer and singer Olie Power (born where and when ? dead where and when ? ) Thanks a lot OD.
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Sep 14, 2007
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                                            Help ! I need somme informations bout the life of the drummer and singer
                                            Olie Power (born where and when ? dead where and when ? ) Thanks a lot

                                            OD.
                                          • Howard Rye
                                            According to his draft card (5 June 1917), he was born in Louisville, Kentucky on 11 October 1887, vaudeville actor of 5555 Vincennes, Chicago. In the 1920
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Sep 14, 2007
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                                              According to his draft card (5 June 1917), he was born in Louisville,
                                              Kentucky on 11 October 1887, vaudeville actor of 5555 Vincennes, Chicago.

                                              In the 1920 census, he is recorded as aged 33, born in Kentucky, "Singer,
                                              Theatre". The household at 512 (or possibly 4512) Vincennes Avenue also
                                              contains his wife May and 9 roomers, none of them musicians or show people.

                                              on 14/9/07 10:34, Olivier Douville at douvilleolivier@... wrote:

                                              Help ! I need somme informations bout the life of the drummer and singer
                                              Olie Power (born where and when ? dead where and when ? ) Thanks a lot


                                              Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                              howard@...
                                              Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Olivier Douville
                                              Thanks a lot. Have a good day OD According to his draft card (5 June 1917), he was born in Louisville, Kentucky on 11 October 1887, vaudeville actor of 5555
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Sep 14, 2007
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                                                Thanks a lot. Have a good day
                                                OD




                                                According to his draft card (5 June 1917), he was born in Louisville,
                                                Kentucky on 11 October 1887, vaudeville actor of 5555 Vincennes, Chicago.

                                                In the 1920 census, he is recorded as aged 33, born in Kentucky, "Singer,
                                                Theatre". The household at 512 (or possibly 4512) Vincennes Avenue also
                                                contains his wife May and 9 roomers, none of them musicians or show people.

                                                on 14/9/07 10:34, Olivier Douville at douvilleolivier@...
                                                <mailto:douvilleolivier%40noos.fr> wrote:

                                                Help ! I need somme informations bout the life of the drummer and singer
                                                Olie Power (born where and when ? dead where and when ? ) Thanks a lot

                                                Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                                howard@... <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk>
                                                Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                                --










                                                Olivier Douville


                                                Directeur de publication de PSYCHOLOGIE CLINIQUE

                                                22, rue de la Tour d'Auvergne 75009 Paris
                                                tel : 06 77 69 24 51

                                                douvilleolivier@...


                                                liens
                                                http://www.dunod.com/pages/ouvrages/ficheouvrage.asp?id=49180
                                                http://www.psycho-ressources.com/olivier-douville.html













                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Albert Haim
                                                Olivier, Here is a page with some bibliographic references to Ollie Powers. http://www.messier81.com/olp3.html Amicalement, Albert ... Chicago. ... Singer,
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Sep 14, 2007
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                                                  Olivier,

                                                  Here is a page with some bibliographic references to Ollie Powers.

                                                  http://www.messier81.com/olp3.html

                                                  Amicalement,

                                                  Albert





                                                  --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Olivier Douville
                                                  <douvilleolivier@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Thanks a lot. Have a good day
                                                  > OD
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > According to his draft card (5 June 1917), he was born in Louisville,
                                                  > Kentucky on 11 October 1887, vaudeville actor of 5555 Vincennes,
                                                  Chicago.
                                                  >
                                                  > In the 1920 census, he is recorded as aged 33, born in Kentucky,
                                                  "Singer,
                                                  > Theatre". The household at 512 (or possibly 4512) Vincennes Avenue also
                                                  > contains his wife May and 9 roomers, none of them musicians or show
                                                  people.
                                                  >
                                                  > on 14/9/07 10:34, Olivier Douville at douvilleolivier@...
                                                  > <mailto:douvilleolivier%40noos.fr> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Help ! I need somme informations bout the life of the drummer and
                                                  singer
                                                  > Olie Power (born where and when ? dead where and when ? ) Thanks a lot
                                                  >
                                                  > Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                                  > howard@... <mailto:howard%40coppermill.demon.co.uk>
                                                  > Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                                                  >
                                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Olivier Douville
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Directeur de publication de PSYCHOLOGIE CLINIQUE
                                                  >
                                                  > 22, rue de la Tour d'Auvergne 75009 Paris
                                                  > tel : 06 77 69 24 51
                                                  >
                                                  > douvilleolivier@...
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > liens
                                                  > http://www.dunod.com/pages/ouvrages/ficheouvrage.asp?id=49180
                                                  > http://www.psycho-ressources.com/olivier-douville.html
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >
                                                • Howard Rye
                                                  Interesting, though not especially unusual, that the family - see previous webpage - believe he was a year older than the
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Sep 14, 2007
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                                                    Interesting, though not especially unusual, that the family - see previous
                                                    webpage <http://www.messier81.com/olp1.html> - believe he was a year older
                                                    than the birth date on his draft card. They have the same birthday so we can
                                                    be pretty sure the draft card is the right person.

                                                    The tragically early death at least explains why he can't be found in the
                                                    1930 census.

                                                    on 14/9/07 17:05, Albert Haim at alberthaim@... wrote:

                                                    Olivier,

                                                    Here is a page with some bibliographic references to Ollie Powers.

                                                    http://www.messier81.com/olp3.html

                                                    Amicalement,

                                                    Albert

                                                    --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                                    Olivier Douville
                                                    <douvilleolivier@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Thanks a lot. Have a good day
                                                    > OD
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > According to his draft card (5 June 1917), he was born in Louisville,
                                                    > Kentucky on 11 October 1887, vaudeville actor of 5555 Vincennes,
                                                    Chicago.
                                                    >
                                                    > In the 1920 census, he is recorded as aged 33, born in Kentucky,
                                                    "Singer,
                                                    > Theatre". The household at 512 (or possibly 4512) Vincennes Avenue also
                                                    > contains his wife May and 9 roomers, none of them musicians or show
                                                    people.





                                                    Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                                    howard@...
                                                    Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • David Brown
                                                    I have returned to Valaida s UK sides after many years and withdraw my previous weak chops . Valaida was, however, essaying a trumpet style closely modelled
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Sep 15, 2007
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                                                      I have returned to Valaida's UK sides after many years and withdraw my
                                                      previous 'weak chops'. Valaida was, however, essaying a trumpet style
                                                      closely modelled on that of bravura Louis and it must be observed that her
                                                      technique was not always equal to this extreme challenge.

                                                      The 1935 sides with Billy Mason and Duncan Whyte are, as Nick observed, her
                                                      best in UK and if it is possible to claim Whyte more than her peer --- as
                                                      regards technique and originality --- he was not for swing, still revealing
                                                      a British stiffness. However, his solo on 'Singing In The Rain' is
                                                      remarkable for its conception and originality and I cannot think of a better
                                                      contemporary European trumpeter. Anybody ? The 1936 sides show Valaida less
                                                      technically sure but the 1937 sides, in places, show fine bravura trumpet. I
                                                      also particularly cite a splendid lyrical solo on 'Sweet Heartache'. Close
                                                      comparative listening to Johnny Claes reveals to me that he was not capable
                                                      of the solos he has sometimes been attributed on these sides.

                                                      But it is her singing rather than her playing that make these sides
                                                      memorable. Her singing, as her playing, always swung and she is at her best
                                                      on up tempo numbers where her scatting is delightful. There is a tendency,
                                                      however, prevalent at this period even among greater singers, to over-emote
                                                      on ballads.

                                                      These sides also reveal the high standards reached among some British
                                                      musicians at this time.

                                                      I thoroughly recommend these sides to all lovers of hot jazz, swing and good
                                                      popular song. But, to put this in context, I must also mention, as in a
                                                      different league, the similar contemporary recordings of Billie Holiday.

                                                      Dave

                                                      PS Have the Billy Mason Deccas with Whyte ever been re-issued ?


                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • Howard Rye
                                                      Two of them were issued in the 80s on Decca RFLD 28, Hits Of The 30s Vol.II, a double LP set which is probably by now as rare as the 78s! on 16/9/07 7:15,
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Sep 16, 2007
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                                                        Two of them were issued in the 80s on Decca RFLD 28, Hits Of The 30s Vol.II,
                                                        a double LP set which is probably by now as rare as the 78s!


                                                        on 16/9/07 7:15, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:



                                                        PS Have the Billy Mason Deccas with Whyte ever been re-issued ?




                                                        Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                                        howard@...
                                                        Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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