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Re: Billy Arnte

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  • Howard Rye
    on 20/8/07 10:01, Prof_Hi_Jinx at prof_hi_jinx@yahoo.com.au wrote: My understanding is that she was a male impersonator (hence the either-way stage name,
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 20, 2007
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      on 20/8/07 10:01, Prof_Hi_Jinx at prof_hi_jinx@... wrote:

      My understanding is that she was a male impersonator (hence the either-way
      stage name, Teddy) and was a daughter of a racketeer named Billy Arnte.

      If anyone knows more, I'd be grateful to hear it. Thanks.

      Dunno about him being a racketeer but Billy and Mabel Arnte were a
      vaudeville act which had some connection with Jelly Roll Morton which I
      forget off hand (probably detailed on Mike Meddings's web-site) and which
      visited Britain in 1910 (which some have wanted to conect with Morton's
      entirely mythical visit to Britain). Though I'm sure they were here I am
      confident after many hours searching of the trade press they didn't work
      under their real names. The connection with Teddy Peters is new to me.

      If you want a copy of my file, which has three different places and dates of
      birth for Billy but no census entry early enough to show any children, just
      ask.

      Best,
      H

      Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
      howard@...
      Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Dan Van Landingham
      I used to listen to WWL from here on the southern coast of Oregon :North Bend,Oregon.I haven t picked up WWL since the mid 1970s-1974 to be exact.I guess the
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 20, 2007
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        I used to listen to WWL from here on the southern coast of Oregon":North Bend,Oregon.I haven't picked up WWL since the mid 1970s-1974 to be exact.I guess the skip was just right.I've been a jazz fan since the mid '60s.I've been a record collector for close to fifty years.

        bill thieme <tgatebill@...> wrote: --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Bill Bailey <billbaileyco@...>
        wrote:
        >Hi Bill,
        Wow -Oregon! I guess that's why they used to say "clear Channel
        Station!
        It took me years to find that recording. It's Congo Square. The
        band is Johnny Wiggs, cornet, lester Boiuchon clarinet, Santo Pecora
        trombone, Armand Hug Piano, Tony Greco-Bass, Freddy King Drums.
        I found it on LP New Orleans Records,1918 Burgundy Streed, New
        Orleans, LA 70116. If your memories run like mine it's a "must have".
        glad to help
        Bill Thieme
        > Dear Bill,
        > I, too, listened to WWL and the New Orleans Jazz club as
        a kidb in Oregon. I am interested in their theme song. What was its
        name, who was the band and particularly who was the clarinet player.
        I have not heard this theme for over 50 years and would like to know
        more about it; where I might hear it on the Internet. Any
        information will be appreciated.
        > Thank you,
        > Bill Bailey
        > billbailey@...
        > My name is Bill and I just signed up. I became a jazzer
        at early age
        > in L.A.--that's Lower Alabama. There was little to be heard there,
        but
        > I discovered two radio shows on WWL New Orleans, a record program
        by
        > the New Orleans Jazz Society, followed by a recorded live show by
        Tony
        > Almerico.This was about 1950.I had a brand new Sears Trombone so I
        was
        > strongly influenced by the music of Bubby Castigliola and Jack
        Delaney
        > who were regulars on the Tony Almerico Parisian room show.
        > Now I have about 3,000 LP's, about 300 CD's. I play regularly in
        > Jam sets at the San Joaquin Traditional Jazz Society and Thanks to
        a
        > senior program I am a member of the Delta College Jazz Ensemble
        also in
        > Stockton.
        > I am interested discussing ways to provide a home for my records,
        > but want to keep them as long as I'm lucid, and there are a few
        things
        > I'm Still looking for I should add--I still love the Dixieland, but
        I
        > have learned to love almost all forms. My records of Trombonists
        range
        > from Delaney, Teagarden to Fontana, Rosolino, and Martin.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos
        new Car Finder tool.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >






        ---------------------------------
        Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
        Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David W. Littlefield
        ... Hi June. This is an interesting and fun topic. What I haven t seen (at least explicitly) in the discussion thus far are: 1. Blues is a fundamental *part*
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 22, 2007
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          At 04:49 AM 08/19/07, you wrote:
          >i am a neophyte , but old enought to be impardonnable :-)
          >why do i call blues what it's look you call jazz ?
          >is Billie holiday ,Esther , Bessie , jazz ?
          >so what is blues and what is jazz ? a time matter ?
          >best regards
          >june

          Hi June. This is an interesting and fun topic. What I haven't seen
          (at least explicitly) in the discussion thus far are:
          1. Blues is a fundamental *part* of pre-modern jazz and it's modern revivals.
          2. There are many "schools" or genres of blues, just as there many
          schools/genres of jazz.
          3. The genres of blues can be classified--pigeon-holed--so that one
          can identify those that are jazz-relevant. To start, we might, for
          example, have a main category of "The Blues" that includes "folk"
          blues, mostly vocal- oriented; most of this is totally unrelated to jazz.

          Another main category could be "Jazz blues". Early Jazz has several
          main elements:
          Blues, pop tunes, marches, and to a lesser extent, "gospel".
          Basically, the blues element is a body of standard chord patterns
          played in 12-measure segments that are used as the harmonic basis of
          composed melodies and improvisations. Where this element departs
          from "The Blues" is that many compositions such as those of W.C.
          Handy, use several blues patterns successively in multiple segments;
          other tunes may use the same chord pattern, but have several distinct
          melody lines. In addition, some "pop" compositions start with blues
          patterns, but add lines or otherwise deviate using pop tune patterns.

          Keep in mind that hundreds of tunes had "blues" in the title for
          commercial purposes, but weren't blues at all...

          Hopefully the above helps you focus your thinking.

          --Sheik
          http://americanmusiccaravan.com
        • tc
          Wow, this is a question I think about so often when I attempt to categorize my music by style on iTunes. Generally, I say that Bessie Smith was blues; it
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 22, 2007
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            Wow, this is a question I think about so often when I attempt to
            categorize my music by style on iTunes. Generally, I say that Bessie
            Smith was blues; it seems to me that I would categorize Billie as
            generally jazz, and not blues, but the primary difference, it seems to
            me anyway (I can't speak for anyone else on this matter as, number
            one, my answer might be complete bull-merde and number two, I think if
            you ask 42 people, you'll get 42 different responses) is that Billie
            was often supported by a more sizable supporting band and she was
            generally active later. That said, I'd say that BB King is blues/R&B,
            certainly in his earliest period, that Ma Rainey was blues, but I'd
            say that, for example, Original Dixieland Jazz Band of the 1910s was
            more swing, and that perhaps one might cite it as jazz. I'd say Bix
            Beiderbecke was more swing, same with Scott Jolson. I'd say Blind
            Willie Johnson, Son Volt, Mississippi John Hurt were blues.....but
            again, if anyone wants to disagree with me, I certainly wouldn't
            argue the case strongly. I think my point is.......I don't really
            care......I just enjoy the way the cats got it done :)

            Todd

            On 8/19/07, Patrice Champarou <patrice.champarou@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "lmme2010" <lmme2001@...>
            > To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 10:49 AM
            > Subject: [RedHotJazz] RE : RedHotJazz
            >
            > >
            > > i am a neophyte , but old enought to be impardonnable :-)
            > > why do i call blues what it's look you call jazz ?
            > > is Billie holiday ,Esther , Bessie , jazz ?
            > > so what is blues and what is jazz ? a time matter ?
            > > best regards
            > > june
            >
            > La question de la mort qui tue... (shoud I say "pardon my French"?;-)
            >
            > Do not expect to get a definitive reply here or anywhere else, I've been
            > haunting blues-related groups long enough to be sure that every single
            > music
            > lover, whatever their age or knowlegde, have their own personal definitions
            > and boundaries, supported by a number of technical, topical, and mostly
            > subjective criteria!
            >
            > I would not put Billie in the same barrel as Bessie because of their very
            > different repertoires, unless you apply the concept of blues to "anything
            > sung" - so that would also involve Louis Prima who indeed could sing the
            > blues but seldom did. I suppose that the temptation to categorize singers
            > and their repertoires comes from the old legend of the "pure", seminal,
            > hard
            > blues singer, which tends to label many a country musician like Charley
            > Patton or Willie McTell the same way, even though much of what they used to
            > play should be called spriritual, rag, ballad or folk-song.
            >
            > If it is just a matter of words, we can go back to the initial confusion
            > between jazz and blues back in the 1910's, or just shrug our shoulders
            > while
            > listening to what today's DJ's or record-shops employees file under
            > "blues"... I feel much more comfortable with Elijah Wald's definition of
            > blues as "a type of song" - although he does not go as far as restricting
            > it
            > to that - or, if anyone prefers, a musical climate which could, and still
            > can, permeate many different musical genres. Billie Holiday's Fine and
            > Mellow is blues indeed, just as every single note young Louis Armstrong
            > played with Bertha "Chipie" Hill.... harder to tell about such moving songs
            > as Mandy Is Two, Strange Fruit, or Lady Sings The Blues, but there must be
            > a
            > limit somewhere and I guess no-one would call I Hear Music a blues song.
            >
            > Next, please ;-)))
            >
            > Patrice
            >
            >
          • Midgie
            To me it is ultra simple....lol The moaning, groaning whining divas of the twenties (Bessie Smith to Victoria Spivey to Rosa Henderson)) and their male
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 23, 2007
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              To me it is ultra simple....lol

              The moaning, groaning whining divas of the twenties (Bessie Smith to
              Victoria Spivey to Rosa Henderson)) and their male equivalent ( Robert
              Johson, Blind Willie and right up to Bob Dylon )...are Blues.. There is a
              distinctive tone - and a sad story accompanied by one or two background
              instruments. Frankly I find such music rather depressing and not really much
              to my liking except from the historical perspective - especially the old
              divas...

              Classical Jazz, OTH, I love... It is usually light and happy - many
              instruments, much improvisation and amazing sounds! Often a melody can be
              recognized in the midst of disordered order - and the fine improvisations of
              specific talents is downright spiritual!!!

              Just my personal take.....

              Midgie

              On 8/22/07, tc <toddcoop@...> wrote:
              >
              > Wow, this is a question I think about so often when I attempt to
              > categorize my music by style on iTunes. Generally, I say that Bessie
              > Smith was blues; it seems to me that I would categorize Billie as
              > generally jazz, and not blues, but the primary difference, it seems to
              > me anyway (I can't speak for anyone else on this matter as, number
              > one, my answer might be complete bull-merde and number two, I think if
              > you ask 42 people, you'll get 42 different responses) is that Billie
              > was often supported by a more sizable supporting band and she was
              > generally active later. That said, I'd say that BB King is blues/R&B,
              > certainly in his earliest period, that Ma Rainey was blues, but I'd
              > say that, for example, Original Dixieland Jazz Band of the 1910s was
              > more swing, and that perhaps one might cite it as jazz. I'd say Bix
              > Beiderbecke was more swing, same with Scott Jolson. I'd say Blind
              > Willie Johnson, Son Volt, Mississippi John Hurt were blues.....but
              > again, if anyone wants to disagree with me, I certainly wouldn't
              > argue the case strongly. I think my point is.......I don't really
              > care......I just enjoy the way the cats got it done :)
              >
              > Todd
              >
              > On 8/19/07, Patrice Champarou <patrice.champarou@...> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "lmme2010" <lmme2001@...>
              > > To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 10:49 AM
              > > Subject: [RedHotJazz] RE : RedHotJazz
              > >
              > > >
              > > > i am a neophyte , but old enought to be impardonnable :-)
              > > > why do i call blues what it's look you call jazz ?
              > > > is Billie holiday ,Esther , Bessie , jazz ?
              > > > so what is blues and what is jazz ? a time matter ?
              > > > best regards
              > > > june
              > >
              > > La question de la mort qui tue... (shoud I say "pardon my French"?;-)
              > >
              > > Do not expect to get a definitive reply here or anywhere else, I've
              > been
              > > haunting blues-related groups long enough to be sure that every single
              > > music
              > > lover, whatever their age or knowlegde, have their own personal
              > definitions
              > > and boundaries, supported by a number of technical, topical, and mostly
              > > subjective criteria!
              > >
              > > I would not put Billie in the same barrel as Bessie because of their
              > very
              > > different repertoires, unless you apply the concept of blues to
              > "anything
              > > sung" - so that would also involve Louis Prima who indeed could sing
              > the
              > > blues but seldom did. I suppose that the temptation to categorize
              > singers
              > > and their repertoires comes from the old legend of the "pure", seminal,
              > > hard
              > > blues singer, which tends to label many a country musician like Charley
              > > Patton or Willie McTell the same way, even though much of what they
              > used to
              > > play should be called spriritual, rag, ballad or folk-song.
              > >
              > > If it is just a matter of words, we can go back to the initial
              > confusion
              > > between jazz and blues back in the 1910's, or just shrug our shoulders
              > > while
              > > listening to what today's DJ's or record-shops employees file under
              > > "blues"... I feel much more comfortable with Elijah Wald's definition
              > of
              > > blues as "a type of song" - although he does not go as far as
              > restricting
              > > it
              > > to that - or, if anyone prefers, a musical climate which could, and
              > still
              > > can, permeate many different musical genres. Billie Holiday's Fine and
              > > Mellow is blues indeed, just as every single note young Louis Armstrong
              > > played with Bertha "Chipie" Hill.... harder to tell about such moving
              > songs
              > > as Mandy Is Two, Strange Fruit, or Lady Sings The Blues, but there must
              > be
              > > a
              > > limit somewhere and I guess no-one would call I Hear Music a blues
              > song.
              > >
              > > Next, please ;-)))
              > >
              > > Patrice
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • tommersl
              ... is a ... really much ... can be ... improvisations of ... Which Blind Willie? tommersl
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 24, 2007
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                --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Midgie <glasser0000@...> wrote:
                >
                > To me it is ultra simple....lol
                >
                > The moaning, groaning whining divas of the twenties (Bessie Smith to
                > Victoria Spivey to Rosa Henderson)) and their male equivalent ( Robert
                > Johson, Blind Willie and right up to Bob Dylon )...are Blues.. There
                is a
                > distinctive tone - and a sad story accompanied by one or two background
                > instruments. Frankly I find such music rather depressing and not
                really much
                > to my liking except from the historical perspective - especially the old
                > divas...
                >
                > Classical Jazz, OTH, I love... It is usually light and happy - many
                > instruments, much improvisation and amazing sounds! Often a melody
                can be
                > recognized in the midst of disordered order - and the fine
                improvisations of
                > specific talents is downright spiritual!!!
                >
                > Just my personal take.....
                >
                > Midgie
                >
                Which Blind Willie?
                tommersl
              • jaykay_4444
                Categories aside (at least for the moment), I wonder how many of you, like myself, favor Bessie Smith singing what any purist would have to term non-blues
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 24, 2007
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                  Categories aside (at least for the moment), I wonder how many of you,
                  like myself, favor Bessie Smith singing what any purist would have to
                  term "non-blues" material. Granted, there is a blues tinge and a
                  genuine blues feeling in almost everything she recorded. But the
                  blues themselves have built-in limitations that did not allow her to
                  venture far from the core of such music. I imagine there are
                  listeners who would award her a "plus" for that. Yet after all, she
                  was a vocalist, foremost if not first, and her command of other types
                  of material was what distinguished Bessie, to my ears, from other
                  imposing singers of her era. Musically, one blues is much like
                  another; when she began to emphasize other material, it permitted her
                  not only to reach out to a wider audience, but also to demonstrate
                  her much-underrated versatility.




                  --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Midgie <glasser0000@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > To me it is ultra simple....lol
                  >
                  > The moaning, groaning whining divas of the twenties (Bessie Smith to
                  > Victoria Spivey to Rosa Henderson)) and their male equivalent (
                  Robert
                  > Johson, Blind Willie and right up to Bob Dylon )...are Blues..
                  There is a
                  > distinctive tone - and a sad story accompanied by one or two
                  background
                  > instruments. Frankly I find such music rather depressing and not
                  really much
                  > to my liking except from the historical perspective - especially
                  the old
                  > divas...
                  >
                  > Classical Jazz, OTH, I love... It is usually light and happy - many
                  > instruments, much improvisation and amazing sounds! Often a melody
                  can be
                  > recognized in the midst of disordered order - and the fine
                  improvisations of
                  > specific talents is downright spiritual!!!
                  >
                  > Just my personal take.....
                  >
                  > Midgie
                  >
                  > On 8/22/07, tc <toddcoop@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Wow, this is a question I think about so often when I attempt to
                  > > categorize my music by style on iTunes. Generally, I say that
                  Bessie
                  > > Smith was blues; it seems to me that I would categorize Billie as
                  > > generally jazz, and not blues, but the primary difference, it
                  seems to
                  > > me anyway (I can't speak for anyone else on this matter as, number
                  > > one, my answer might be complete bull-merde and number two, I
                  think if
                  > > you ask 42 people, you'll get 42 different responses) is that
                  Billie
                  > > was often supported by a more sizable supporting band and she was
                  > > generally active later. That said, I'd say that BB King is
                  blues/R&B,
                  > > certainly in his earliest period, that Ma Rainey was blues, but
                  I'd
                  > > say that, for example, Original Dixieland Jazz Band of the 1910s
                  was
                  > > more swing, and that perhaps one might cite it as jazz. I'd say
                  Bix
                  > > Beiderbecke was more swing, same with Scott Jolson. I'd say Blind
                  > > Willie Johnson, Son Volt, Mississippi John Hurt were blues.....but
                  > > again, if anyone wants to disagree with me, I certainly wouldn't
                  > > argue the case strongly. I think my point is.......I don't really
                  > > care......I just enjoy the way the cats got it done :)
                  > >
                  > > Todd
                  > >
                  > > On 8/19/07, Patrice Champarou <patrice.champarou@...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > From: "lmme2010" <lmme2001@...>
                  > > > To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 10:49 AM
                  > > > Subject: [RedHotJazz] RE : RedHotJazz
                  > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > i am a neophyte , but old enought to be impardonnable :-)
                  > > > > why do i call blues what it's look you call jazz ?
                  > > > > is Billie holiday ,Esther , Bessie , jazz ?
                  > > > > so what is blues and what is jazz ? a time matter ?
                  > > > > best regards
                  > > > > june
                  > > >
                  > > > La question de la mort qui tue... (shoud I say "pardon my
                  French"?;-)
                  > > >
                  > > > Do not expect to get a definitive reply here or anywhere else,
                  I've
                  > > been
                  > > > haunting blues-related groups long enough to be sure that
                  every single
                  > > > music
                  > > > lover, whatever their age or knowlegde, have their own personal
                  > > definitions
                  > > > and boundaries, supported by a number of technical, topical,
                  and mostly
                  > > > subjective criteria!
                  > > >
                  > > > I would not put Billie in the same barrel as Bessie because of
                  their
                  > > very
                  > > > different repertoires, unless you apply the concept of blues to
                  > > "anything
                  > > > sung" - so that would also involve Louis Prima who indeed
                  could sing
                  > > the
                  > > > blues but seldom did. I suppose that the temptation to
                  categorize
                  > > singers
                  > > > and their repertoires comes from the old legend of the "pure",
                  seminal,
                  > > > hard
                  > > > blues singer, which tends to label many a country musician
                  like Charley
                  > > > Patton or Willie McTell the same way, even though much of what
                  they
                  > > used to
                  > > > play should be called spriritual, rag, ballad or folk-song.
                  > > >
                  > > > If it is just a matter of words, we can go back to the initial
                  > > confusion
                  > > > between jazz and blues back in the 1910's, or just shrug our
                  shoulders
                  > > > while
                  > > > listening to what today's DJ's or record-shops employees file
                  under
                  > > > "blues"... I feel much more comfortable with Elijah Wald's
                  definition
                  > > of
                  > > > blues as "a type of song" - although he does not go as far as
                  > > restricting
                  > > > it
                  > > > to that - or, if anyone prefers, a musical climate which
                  could, and
                  > > still
                  > > > can, permeate many different musical genres. Billie Holiday's
                  Fine and
                  > > > Mellow is blues indeed, just as every single note young Louis
                  Armstrong
                  > > > played with Bertha "Chipie" Hill.... harder to tell about such
                  moving
                  > > songs
                  > > > as Mandy Is Two, Strange Fruit, or Lady Sings The Blues, but
                  there must
                  > > be
                  > > > a
                  > > > limit somewhere and I guess no-one would call I Hear Music a
                  blues
                  > > song.
                  > > >
                  > > > Next, please ;-)))
                  > > >
                  > > > Patrice
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • tommersl
                  ... Musically, one blues is much like ... Every Blues performed is very different from the other. I think the Romantic ear that is looking for drama, chord
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 24, 2007
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                    --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "jaykay_4444" <jaykay_4444@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    Musically, one blues is much like
                    > another; when she began to emphasize other material, it permitted her
                    > not only to reach out to a wider audience, but also to demonstrate
                    > her much-underrated versatility.
                    >

                    Every Blues performed is very different from the other. I think the
                    Romantic ear that is looking for drama, chord changes,space, exoticism
                    and other Romantic ideas of manipulating the listener and distracting
                    him from the beauty of strict improvisations and strict bare musical
                    ideas, has the problem to identify Blues from another but it's not
                    necessarily what most of the music listeners will find out after
                    listening long enough.

                    Romantic is another beauty of music but many time when you strip the
                    Romantic music from the romantic ideas you find that there is not much
                    left. Like someone who is a mediocre cook who put a lot of spice on the
                    food. Is that a real alternate to a real cook who can cook the same
                    food in different ways without adding additional food-color just to
                    impress?

                    I actually like Bessie smith strict Blues over the other tunes she did,
                    and in those other tunes I only interest as to how good she did on
                    lifting it from the average bunch of the Tin Pan Alley.

                    tommersl
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