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Re: "Singin' the Blues" - 80 years later

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  • Albert Haim
    From http://physics.fortlewis.edu/Astronomy/astronomy%20today/CHAISSON/AT303/HTML/AT30304.HTM As an object is heated the radiation it emits peaks at higher and
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 5, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      From
      http://physics.fortlewis.edu/Astronomy/astronomy%20today/CHAISSON/AT303/HTML/AT30304.HTM

      As an object is heated the radiation it emits peaks at higher and
      higher frequencies. When the metal is at room temperature (300 K— the
      K scale is C + 273) it emits only invisible infrared radiation. At
      1000 K, for instance, most of the emitted radiation is still infrared,
      but now there is also a small amount of visible (dull red) radiation
      being emitted. As the temperature continues to rise, the peak of the
      metal's blackbody curve moves through the visible spectrum, from red
      (4000 K) through yellow. The metal eventually becomes white hot (7000 K).

      The above gives us the scientific definition of "white-hot." It is
      also used in common parlance to refer to degrees of heat of jazz. Of
      course, we have the red hot jazz archive which should be written as
      red-hot jazz. There are degrees of heat for jazz. When heat is absent,
      we call the music sweet. When the music swings and is jazzy, we call
      it hot. Grove on line defines hot jazz as "A term used to describe
      jazz, particularly early jazz and swing, of an exciting and energetic
      nature."

      I think the author is using the term white-hot in two ways.
      Explicitely as an indication that "Singin' the Blues" is not a sweet
      piece of music, and as a play on words to refer to the fact that this
      hot music is played by white musicians.

      Albert







      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@> wrote:
      > >
      > > The weekend edition (June 2-3, 2007) of The Wall Street Journal
      > > carries this very well-written article about the Bix and Tram seminal
      > > recording of "Singin' the Blues." Here is the article in its entirety.
      > >
      > > Albert
      > >
      > > **********************
      > > "MASTERPIECE"
      > >
      > > White-Hot Jazz Ballad
      > > The haunting 'Singin' the Blues' changed American music
      > >
      > > By TOM NOLAN
      > > June 2, 2007; Page P14
      > >
      >
      > Since the author seems to be careful and selective in his writing,
      > using double-quote precisely in place and etc, I wonder what the
      > "White-Hot Jazz Ballad" title means. Is it "'White Hot' Jazz Ballad"
      > or maybe "White:Hot Jazz Ballad". What is the definition of Hot Jazz?
      > Tommersl
      >
    • tommersl
      Many thanks, it seems logical though I think the writer is overestimating the importance of the recording in terms of Hot Jazz . Lester Young wasn t very much
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 11, 2007
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        Many thanks, it seems logical though I think the writer is
        overestimating the importance of the recording in terms of "Hot Jazz".
        Lester Young wasn't very much the hot player and if he was influenced
        by this recordings it says it's not as "hot" as expected. Lester Young
        had a sweet side in his playing that was even filmed in a movie.
        tommersl

        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@...> wrote:
        >
        > From
        >
        http://physics.fortlewis.edu/Astronomy/astronomy%20today/CHAISSON/AT303/HTML/AT30304.HTM
        >
        > As an object is heated the radiation it emits peaks at higher and
        > higher frequencies. When the metal is at room temperature (300 K— the
        > K scale is C + 273) it emits only invisible infrared radiation. At
        > 1000 K, for instance, most of the emitted radiation is still infrared,
        > but now there is also a small amount of visible (dull red) radiation
        > being emitted. As the temperature continues to rise, the peak of the
        > metal's blackbody curve moves through the visible spectrum, from red
        > (4000 K) through yellow. The metal eventually becomes white hot
        (7000 K).
        >
        > The above gives us the scientific definition of "white-hot." It is
        > also used in common parlance to refer to degrees of heat of jazz. Of
        > course, we have the red hot jazz archive which should be written as
        > red-hot jazz. There are degrees of heat for jazz. When heat is absent,
        > we call the music sweet. When the music swings and is jazzy, we call
        > it hot. Grove on line defines hot jazz as "A term used to describe
        > jazz, particularly early jazz and swing, of an exciting and energetic
        > nature."
        >
        > I think the author is using the term white-hot in two ways.
        > Explicitely as an indication that "Singin' the Blues" is not a sweet
        > piece of music, and as a play on words to refer to the fact that this
        > hot music is played by white musicians.
        >
        > Albert
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@> wrote:
        > >
        > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > The weekend edition (June 2-3, 2007) of The Wall Street Journal
        > > > carries this very well-written article about the Bix and Tram
        seminal
        > > > recording of "Singin' the Blues." Here is the article in its
        entirety.
        > > >
        > > > Albert
        > > >
        > > > **********************
        > > > "MASTERPIECE"
        > > >
        > > > White-Hot Jazz Ballad
        > > > The haunting 'Singin' the Blues' changed American music
        > > >
        > > > By TOM NOLAN
        > > > June 2, 2007; Page P14
        > > >
        > >
        > > Since the author seems to be careful and selective in his writing,
        > > using double-quote precisely in place and etc, I wonder what the
        > > "White-Hot Jazz Ballad" title means. Is it "'White Hot' Jazz Ballad"
        > > or maybe "White:Hot Jazz Ballad". What is the definition of Hot Jazz?
        > > Tommersl
        > >
        >
      • tommersl
        I was thinking about it further. The writer of the article misunderstood IMO the contribution of Singing The Blues to Jazz history. In his attempt he tries
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 11, 2007
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          I was thinking about it further. The writer of the article
          misunderstood IMO the contribution of "Singing The Blues" to Jazz
          history. In his attempt he tries to show that white artists could be
          hotter than black artists. The story of mutual influence is quite
          loose in this case since white bands were tending to become sweeter
          and black were the hotter, it means that actually he sees single-sided
          influence! I think that by that he does no service to white huge
          contribution to Jazz music. First, bands like early Paul Whiteman was
          turning from a sweet WW1 songs marching band into Jazz band. And
          several artists like Eddie Lang with the Classical background doing
          harmonic ideas that were removed from what black Jazz artists were
          doing at the time. White soloist with Classical background that were
          adding a sweeter sound and expanding the Jazz idiom. By insisting on
          the hot terminology we can miss the most contributing. It will be hard
          to convince me that Singing The Blues solos was hotter than solos by
          Johnny Dodds, Louis Armstrong or Bubber Miley. But I am convinced that
          Jazz evolution was changed in the 1930's because of mutual influence.
          Hot bands became sweeter. Sweet bands were playing hotter Jazz. It
          made a refinement for both sides. The hot bands couldn't swing forever
          in that powerful fashion, they needed some sweeter inspiration. Sweet
          bands that were becoming hot were the best at that. What was so
          groundbreaking in the New Orleans Rhythm Kings, Trambauer's,
          Whiteman's and all other hot sweet bands unless they were inspired to
          become hotter? And without the mutual inspiration would Louis
          Armstrong and the whole 1930's Swing band would become such romantic
          unless they were inspired? The best is to be precise.
          Someone who came from a Classic/Romantic music background is carrying
          it and someone who was from the simple Blues background carry it. Both
          sides have to get rid of the limitations of their schools. The rest is
          a matter of taste. I prefer the rough sound of New Orleans and similar
          bands of the Hot 1920's Jazz, but I also like the Hot Sweet bands.
          Recently I am digging those bands. It is ridiculous that people think
          it's mutual exclusive to like Red Nichols and Bix and from the other
          hand Johnny Dodds and Bubber Miley. I think all mentioned artists were
          interesting musicians that contributed each in their own way.
          Tommersl

          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@...> wrote:
          >
          > Many thanks, it seems logical though I think the writer is
          > overestimating the importance of the recording in terms of "Hot Jazz".
          > Lester Young wasn't very much the hot player and if he was influenced
          > by this recordings it says it's not as "hot" as expected. Lester Young
          > had a sweet side in his playing that was even filmed in a movie.
          > tommersl
          >
          > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@> wrote:
          > >
          > > From
          > >
          >
          http://physics.fortlewis.edu/Astronomy/astronomy%20today/CHAISSON/AT303/HTML/AT30304.HTM
          > >
          > > As an object is heated the radiation it emits peaks at higher and
          > > higher frequencies. When the metal is at room temperature (300 K— the
          > > K scale is C + 273) it emits only invisible infrared radiation. At
          > > 1000 K, for instance, most of the emitted radiation is still infrared,
          > > but now there is also a small amount of visible (dull red) radiation
          > > being emitted. As the temperature continues to rise, the peak of the
          > > metal's blackbody curve moves through the visible spectrum, from red
          > > (4000 K) through yellow. The metal eventually becomes white hot
          > (7000 K).
          > >
          > > The above gives us the scientific definition of "white-hot." It is
          > > also used in common parlance to refer to degrees of heat of jazz. Of
          > > course, we have the red hot jazz archive which should be written as
          > > red-hot jazz. There are degrees of heat for jazz. When heat is absent,
          > > we call the music sweet. When the music swings and is jazzy, we call
          > > it hot. Grove on line defines hot jazz as "A term used to describe
          > > jazz, particularly early jazz and swing, of an exciting and energetic
          > > nature."
          > >
          > > I think the author is using the term white-hot in two ways.
          > > Explicitely as an indication that "Singin' the Blues" is not a sweet
          > > piece of music, and as a play on words to refer to the fact that this
          > > hot music is played by white musicians.
          > >
          > > Albert
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@>
          wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > The weekend edition (June 2-3, 2007) of The Wall Street Journal
          > > > > carries this very well-written article about the Bix and Tram
          > seminal
          > > > > recording of "Singin' the Blues." Here is the article in its
          > entirety.
          > > > >
          > > > > Albert
          > > > >
          > > > > **********************
          > > > > "MASTERPIECE"
          > > > >
          > > > > White-Hot Jazz Ballad
          > > > > The haunting 'Singin' the Blues' changed American music
          > > > >
          > > > > By TOM NOLAN
          > > > > June 2, 2007; Page P14
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > > Since the author seems to be careful and selective in his writing,
          > > > using double-quote precisely in place and etc, I wonder what the
          > > > "White-Hot Jazz Ballad" title means. Is it "'White Hot' Jazz Ballad"
          > > > or maybe "White:Hot Jazz Ballad". What is the definition of Hot
          Jazz?
          > > > Tommersl
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • Albert Haim
          Tommersel, You write, The writer of the article misunderstood IMO the contribution of Singing The Blues to Jazz history. In his attempt he tries to show
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 12, 2007
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            Tommersel,

            You write, "The writer of the article misunderstood IMO the
            contribution of "Singing The Blues" to Jazz history. In his attempt he
            tries to show that white artists could be hotter than black artists."
            I am afraid you misundestood what the writer told us. I do not see,
            implictly or explicitly any place in the article where the writer
            "tries to show that white artists could be hotter than black artists."

            The following are the descriptions used by the author.

            - "Singin' the Blues" had a subtle swing and a lyrical quality.

            - Trumbauer and Beiderbecke's nearly three-minute platter would be
            called "the first jazz ballad," and its haunting sound would forever
            affect the course of America's indigenous music.

            - "Singin' the Blues" starts off at a midtempo, foot-tapping pace that
            suggests a very brisk walk along a country lane.

            - His [Trumbauer's] improvised paraphrases and loping commentary on
            the melody, played over the impeccably fingered lines of 24-year-old
            acoustic-guitarist Eddie Lang, seem at once exuberant and thoughtful,
            rhythmic and ruminative: 32 bars that mix the inevitability of art
            with the ease of conversation.

            - The second chorus belongs to Beiderbecke, a young man with a horn
            playing on and around and in between the beat, in poignant phrases
            that hit with force but leave a wistful echo.

            I re-read the article carefully after you posted your comments, and I
            cannot find any sentence or phrase where the author claims that
            "white artists could be hotter than black artists." Here are the
            pertinent quotes about back and white musicans.

            - By 1927, both Beiderbecke and Trumbauer were already well known to
            other white players of "hot" jazz. After "Singin' the Blues," they
            became known to black players as well. "Singin' the Blues," billed on
            its black-and-gold Okeh label as by "Frankie Trumbauer & His Orchestra
            with Bix and Lang," rolled into all corners of a segregated America.

            - Musicians all over the country learned to play those Beiderbecke and
            Trumbauer solos note for note. Fletcher Henderson, the celebrated
            African-American orchestra leader, had Caucasian arranger and
            Beiderbecke disciple Bill Challis score "Singin' the Blues" for his
            band with Tram's chorus written out for the whole reed section; and
            when Henderson recorded it, he asked his own cornet star Rex Stewart
            to emulate Bix's solo.

            - Modern-era clarinetist Kenny Davern told jazz scholar Dick Sudhalter
            of having once witnessed two black tenor-men, swing-to-bebop master
            Don Byas and the veteran Eddie Barefield (yes, the same man on whose
            door Lester Young once knocked), take out their horns during a chance
            encounter in the 1960s and spontaneously run through Trumbauer's 1927
            chorus from "Singin' the Blues." They told an astonished Davern,
            "Everybody knew that chorus."

            The author is not asserting that "white artists could be hotter than
            balck artists." He is simply pointing out the tremendous impact that
            Bix and Tram's recording of "Singin' the Blues" had in the jazz
            community, black and white.

            Albert


            --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@...> wrote:
            >
            > I was thinking about it further. The writer of the article
            > misunderstood IMO the contribution of "Singing The Blues" to Jazz
            > history. In his attempt he tries to show that white artists could be
            > hotter than black artists. The story of mutual influence is quite
            > loose in this case since white bands were tending to become sweeter
            > and black were the hotter, it means that actually he sees single-sided
            > influence! I think that by that he does no service to white huge
            > contribution to Jazz music. First, bands like early Paul Whiteman was
            > turning from a sweet WW1 songs marching band into Jazz band. And
            > several artists like Eddie Lang with the Classical background doing
            > harmonic ideas that were removed from what black Jazz artists were
            > doing at the time. White soloist with Classical background that were
            > adding a sweeter sound and expanding the Jazz idiom. By insisting on
            > the hot terminology we can miss the most contributing. It will be hard
            > to convince me that Singing The Blues solos was hotter than solos by
            > Johnny Dodds, Louis Armstrong or Bubber Miley. But I am convinced that
            > Jazz evolution was changed in the 1930's because of mutual influence.
            > Hot bands became sweeter. Sweet bands were playing hotter Jazz. It
            > made a refinement for both sides. The hot bands couldn't swing forever
            > in that powerful fashion, they needed some sweeter inspiration. Sweet
            > bands that were becoming hot were the best at that. What was so
            > groundbreaking in the New Orleans Rhythm Kings, Trambauer's,
            > Whiteman's and all other hot sweet bands unless they were inspired to
            > become hotter? And without the mutual inspiration would Louis
            > Armstrong and the whole 1930's Swing band would become such romantic
            > unless they were inspired? The best is to be precise.
            > Someone who came from a Classic/Romantic music background is carrying
            > it and someone who was from the simple Blues background carry it. Both
            > sides have to get rid of the limitations of their schools. The rest is
            > a matter of taste. I prefer the rough sound of New Orleans and similar
            > bands of the Hot 1920's Jazz, but I also like the Hot Sweet bands.
            > Recently I am digging those bands. It is ridiculous that people think
            > it's mutual exclusive to like Red Nichols and Bix and from the other
            > hand Johnny Dodds and Bubber Miley. I think all mentioned artists were
            > interesting musicians that contributed each in their own way.
            > Tommersl
            >
            > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Many thanks, it seems logical though I think the writer is
            > > overestimating the importance of the recording in terms of "Hot Jazz".
            > > Lester Young wasn't very much the hot player and if he was influenced
            > > by this recordings it says it's not as "hot" as expected. Lester Young
            > > had a sweet side in his playing that was even filmed in a movie.
            > > tommersl
            > >
            > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > From
            > > >
            > >
            >
            http://physics.fortlewis.edu/Astronomy/astronomy%20today/CHAISSON/AT303/HTML/AT30304.HTM
            > > >
            > > > As an object is heated the radiation it emits peaks at higher and
            > > > higher frequencies. When the metal is at room temperature (300
            K— the
            > > > K scale is C + 273) it emits only invisible infrared radiation. At
            > > > 1000 K, for instance, most of the emitted radiation is still
            infrared,
            > > > but now there is also a small amount of visible (dull red) radiation
            > > > being emitted. As the temperature continues to rise, the peak of the
            > > > metal's blackbody curve moves through the visible spectrum, from red
            > > > (4000 K) through yellow. The metal eventually becomes white hot
            > > (7000 K).
            > > >
            > > > The above gives us the scientific definition of "white-hot." It is
            > > > also used in common parlance to refer to degrees of heat of jazz. Of
            > > > course, we have the red hot jazz archive which should be written as
            > > > red-hot jazz. There are degrees of heat for jazz. When heat is
            absent,
            > > > we call the music sweet. When the music swings and is jazzy, we call
            > > > it hot. Grove on line defines hot jazz as "A term used to describe
            > > > jazz, particularly early jazz and swing, of an exciting and
            energetic
            > > > nature."
            > > >
            > > > I think the author is using the term white-hot in two ways.
            > > > Explicitely as an indication that "Singin' the Blues" is not a sweet
            > > > piece of music, and as a play on words to refer to the fact that
            this
            > > > hot music is played by white musicians.
            > > >
            > > > Albert
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@>
            > wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > The weekend edition (June 2-3, 2007) of The Wall Street Journal
            > > > > > carries this very well-written article about the Bix and Tram
            > > seminal
            > > > > > recording of "Singin' the Blues." Here is the article in its
            > > entirety.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Albert
            > > > > >
            > > > > > **********************
            > > > > > "MASTERPIECE"
            > > > > >
            > > > > > White-Hot Jazz Ballad
            > > > > > The haunting 'Singin' the Blues' changed American music
            > > > > >
            > > > > > By TOM NOLAN
            > > > > > June 2, 2007; Page P14
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Since the author seems to be careful and selective in his writing,
            > > > > using double-quote precisely in place and etc, I wonder what the
            > > > > "White-Hot Jazz Ballad" title means. Is it "'White Hot' Jazz
            Ballad"
            > > > > or maybe "White:Hot Jazz Ballad". What is the definition of Hot
            > Jazz?
            > > > > Tommersl
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • tommersl
            Albert, I was referring to the analogy the writer used of white-hot since that the white-hot is the hottest in this analogy. Tommersl ... Jazz . ... influenced
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 12, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Albert, I was referring to the analogy the writer used of white-hot
              since that the white-hot is the hottest in this analogy.
              Tommersl

              --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@...> wrote:
              >
              > Tommersel,
              >
              > You write, "The writer of the article misunderstood IMO the
              > contribution of "Singing The Blues" to Jazz history. In his attempt he
              > tries to show that white artists could be hotter than black artists."
              > I am afraid you misundestood what the writer told us. I do not see,
              > implictly or explicitly any place in the article where the writer
              > "tries to show that white artists could be hotter than black artists."
              >
              > The following are the descriptions used by the author.
              >
              > - "Singin' the Blues" had a subtle swing and a lyrical quality.
              >
              > - Trumbauer and Beiderbecke's nearly three-minute platter would be
              > called "the first jazz ballad," and its haunting sound would forever
              > affect the course of America's indigenous music.
              >
              > - "Singin' the Blues" starts off at a midtempo, foot-tapping pace that
              > suggests a very brisk walk along a country lane.
              >
              > - His [Trumbauer's] improvised paraphrases and loping commentary on
              > the melody, played over the impeccably fingered lines of 24-year-old
              > acoustic-guitarist Eddie Lang, seem at once exuberant and thoughtful,
              > rhythmic and ruminative: 32 bars that mix the inevitability of art
              > with the ease of conversation.
              >
              > - The second chorus belongs to Beiderbecke, a young man with a horn
              > playing on and around and in between the beat, in poignant phrases
              > that hit with force but leave a wistful echo.
              >
              > I re-read the article carefully after you posted your comments, and I
              > cannot find any sentence or phrase where the author claims that
              > "white artists could be hotter than black artists." Here are the
              > pertinent quotes about back and white musicans.
              >
              > - By 1927, both Beiderbecke and Trumbauer were already well known to
              > other white players of "hot" jazz. After "Singin' the Blues," they
              > became known to black players as well. "Singin' the Blues," billed on
              > its black-and-gold Okeh label as by "Frankie Trumbauer & His Orchestra
              > with Bix and Lang," rolled into all corners of a segregated America.
              >
              > - Musicians all over the country learned to play those Beiderbecke and
              > Trumbauer solos note for note. Fletcher Henderson, the celebrated
              > African-American orchestra leader, had Caucasian arranger and
              > Beiderbecke disciple Bill Challis score "Singin' the Blues" for his
              > band with Tram's chorus written out for the whole reed section; and
              > when Henderson recorded it, he asked his own cornet star Rex Stewart
              > to emulate Bix's solo.
              >
              > - Modern-era clarinetist Kenny Davern told jazz scholar Dick Sudhalter
              > of having once witnessed two black tenor-men, swing-to-bebop master
              > Don Byas and the veteran Eddie Barefield (yes, the same man on whose
              > door Lester Young once knocked), take out their horns during a chance
              > encounter in the 1960s and spontaneously run through Trumbauer's 1927
              > chorus from "Singin' the Blues." They told an astonished Davern,
              > "Everybody knew that chorus."
              >
              > The author is not asserting that "white artists could be hotter than
              > balck artists." He is simply pointing out the tremendous impact that
              > Bix and Tram's recording of "Singin' the Blues" had in the jazz
              > community, black and white.
              >
              > Albert
              >
              >
              > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I was thinking about it further. The writer of the article
              > > misunderstood IMO the contribution of "Singing The Blues" to Jazz
              > > history. In his attempt he tries to show that white artists could be
              > > hotter than black artists. The story of mutual influence is quite
              > > loose in this case since white bands were tending to become sweeter
              > > and black were the hotter, it means that actually he sees single-sided
              > > influence! I think that by that he does no service to white huge
              > > contribution to Jazz music. First, bands like early Paul Whiteman was
              > > turning from a sweet WW1 songs marching band into Jazz band. And
              > > several artists like Eddie Lang with the Classical background doing
              > > harmonic ideas that were removed from what black Jazz artists were
              > > doing at the time. White soloist with Classical background that were
              > > adding a sweeter sound and expanding the Jazz idiom. By insisting on
              > > the hot terminology we can miss the most contributing. It will be hard
              > > to convince me that Singing The Blues solos was hotter than solos by
              > > Johnny Dodds, Louis Armstrong or Bubber Miley. But I am convinced that
              > > Jazz evolution was changed in the 1930's because of mutual influence.
              > > Hot bands became sweeter. Sweet bands were playing hotter Jazz. It
              > > made a refinement for both sides. The hot bands couldn't swing forever
              > > in that powerful fashion, they needed some sweeter inspiration. Sweet
              > > bands that were becoming hot were the best at that. What was so
              > > groundbreaking in the New Orleans Rhythm Kings, Trambauer's,
              > > Whiteman's and all other hot sweet bands unless they were inspired to
              > > become hotter? And without the mutual inspiration would Louis
              > > Armstrong and the whole 1930's Swing band would become such romantic
              > > unless they were inspired? The best is to be precise.
              > > Someone who came from a Classic/Romantic music background is carrying
              > > it and someone who was from the simple Blues background carry it. Both
              > > sides have to get rid of the limitations of their schools. The rest is
              > > a matter of taste. I prefer the rough sound of New Orleans and similar
              > > bands of the Hot 1920's Jazz, but I also like the Hot Sweet bands.
              > > Recently I am digging those bands. It is ridiculous that people think
              > > it's mutual exclusive to like Red Nichols and Bix and from the other
              > > hand Johnny Dodds and Bubber Miley. I think all mentioned artists were
              > > interesting musicians that contributed each in their own way.
              > > Tommersl
              > >
              > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Many thanks, it seems logical though I think the writer is
              > > > overestimating the importance of the recording in terms of "Hot
              Jazz".
              > > > Lester Young wasn't very much the hot player and if he was
              influenced
              > > > by this recordings it says it's not as "hot" as expected. Lester
              Young
              > > > had a sweet side in his playing that was even filmed in a movie.
              > > > tommersl
              > > >
              > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@>
              wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > From
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              http://physics.fortlewis.edu/Astronomy/astronomy%20today/CHAISSON/AT303/HTML/AT30304.HTM
              > > > >
              > > > > As an object is heated the radiation it emits peaks at higher and
              > > > > higher frequencies. When the metal is at room temperature (300
              > K— the
              > > > > K scale is C + 273) it emits only invisible infrared radiation. At
              > > > > 1000 K, for instance, most of the emitted radiation is still
              > infrared,
              > > > > but now there is also a small amount of visible (dull red)
              radiation
              > > > > being emitted. As the temperature continues to rise, the peak
              of the
              > > > > metal's blackbody curve moves through the visible spectrum,
              from red
              > > > > (4000 K) through yellow. The metal eventually becomes white hot
              > > > (7000 K).
              > > > >
              > > > > The above gives us the scientific definition of "white-hot." It is
              > > > > also used in common parlance to refer to degrees of heat of
              jazz. Of
              > > > > course, we have the red hot jazz archive which should be
              written as
              > > > > red-hot jazz. There are degrees of heat for jazz. When heat is
              > absent,
              > > > > we call the music sweet. When the music swings and is jazzy,
              we call
              > > > > it hot. Grove on line defines hot jazz as "A term used to describe
              > > > > jazz, particularly early jazz and swing, of an exciting and
              > energetic
              > > > > nature."
              > > > >
              > > > > I think the author is using the term white-hot in two ways.
              > > > > Explicitely as an indication that "Singin' the Blues" is not a
              sweet
              > > > > piece of music, and as a play on words to refer to the fact that
              > this
              > > > > hot music is played by white musicians.
              > > > >
              > > > > Albert
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@>
              > > wrote:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > The weekend edition (June 2-3, 2007) of The Wall Street
              Journal
              > > > > > > carries this very well-written article about the Bix and Tram
              > > > seminal
              > > > > > > recording of "Singin' the Blues." Here is the article in its
              > > > entirety.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Albert
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > **********************
              > > > > > > "MASTERPIECE"
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > White-Hot Jazz Ballad
              > > > > > > The haunting 'Singin' the Blues' changed American music
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > By TOM NOLAN
              > > > > > > June 2, 2007; Page P14
              > > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Since the author seems to be careful and selective in his
              writing,
              > > > > > using double-quote precisely in place and etc, I wonder what the
              > > > > > "White-Hot Jazz Ballad" title means. Is it "'White Hot' Jazz
              > Ballad"
              > > > > > or maybe "White:Hot Jazz Ballad". What is the definition of Hot
              > > Jazz?
              > > > > > Tommersl
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • tommersl
              Jazz early history is IMO this way: people were brassing the Blues music. Some of them with Classics music background like W.C. Handy and some like Buddy
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 12, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Jazz early history is IMO this way: people were brassing the Blues
                music. Some of them with Classics music background like W.C. Handy and
                some like Buddy Bolden from the Blues point of view. The Buddy Bolden
                and New-Orleans Creoles and blacks created the the most significance
                music of the Blues-Brassing wave, that was linked at some point with
                the buzz-word Jazz. Their music was hot and different from any other
                Blues-Brassed music. White musicians of Classics music school were
                like W.C. Handy limited because of their background, although some of
                them were talented enough to play good Jazz. But the core was
                Blues-Brassed music of New Orleans that were spreading the music.
                Later additional bands, like Duke Ellington that didn't have as
                powerful improvising Swing-Engagement as the New Orleans
                clarinet-cornet-trombone bands, but they had hot soloist of their own.
                And Jelly Roll Morton who started the sections idea. The black Hot
                bands weren't influenced by the white technically, but they played Hot
                Blues Solo and Swing styles and they were influenced by white written
                tunes since the beginning of Jazz and maybe even before like marching
                songs. The sweet tunes of WW1-songs and pre-WW1 served as tunes to
                improvise on. Then in the 1930's there was a change. The
                sectioned-Jazz was winning, the Hot Jazz era came to its end. Although
                the Hot Jazz era was the best and most creative, it is obvious that it
                couldn't last forever and the reasons are that blacks were tired of
                Blues and they wanted to play a sweeter music. Soloist wanted to play
                sweeter music inspired by white technicals instead of the Blues
                improvisations. Band leaders were inspired by the sections idea which
                gave room for sweet soloists. The black bands of the 1930's were
                inspired by their contemporary white bands. On the other hand, white
                bands were getting hotter. Paul Whiteman was using hotter players than
                his early, they reduced the natural sweetness of his musical ideas.
                Other white bandleaders were also looking for hotter inspiration, and
                at some point it was natural for mixed bands to be assembled. Singing
                The Blues was what black bands of the 1930's wanted, sweeter tone that
                is not necessarily swinging in the solo, but a separated swing section
                (and here is the sections idea again) that makes the music groove.
                White bands were inspired by the rhythm section of the 1930's black
                bands. Together they created a music that is lesser in terms of
                creativity IMO than the 1920's Hot bands but still fine music. So the
                conclusion is that white artists were directly influencing the 1930's,
                but they had little if any impact on the Hot solos of the 1920's, they
                had no impact on the New Orleans Swing-Engagement, and generally the
                Jazz music wasn't inspired by those with classical music background ,
                be it whites or W.C. Handy, the only thing was the tunes that were
                inspired sometimes by white songwriters but the basis Blues and the
                technical development of players were removed from any alien to the
                Blues ideas.
                White Hot-Sweet bands like Tram's, N.O. Rhythm Kings, ODJB were
                playing their Hot-Sweet music, which was almost as high quality as Hot
                Bands, but their influence on blacks came mostly in the 1930's and beyond.
                Tommersl

                --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@...> wrote:
                >
                > Albert, I was referring to the analogy the writer used of white-hot
                > since that the white-hot is the hottest in this analogy.
                > Tommersl
                >
              • Dan Van Landingham
                You ve given me something to think about as I have overlooked some of the 1920s white bands.At one time I had quite a collection of 1920s big bands on several
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 13, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  You've given me something to think about as I have overlooked some of the 1920s white bands.At one time I had quite a collection of 1920s big bands on several long since defunct labels.This is where your website comes in handy.I'm usually there listening to the different
                  bands many of which I've never heard of.Question:can anyone give me more input on Charles Pierce,the Chicago butcher who cut a great version of "China Boy"?

                  tommersl <tommersl@...> wrote:
                  Jazz early history is IMO this way: people were brassing the Blues
                  music. Some of them with Classics music background like W.C. Handy and
                  some like Buddy Bolden from the Blues point of view. The Buddy Bolden
                  and New-Orleans Creoles and blacks created the the most significance
                  music of the Blues-Brassing wave, that was linked at some point with
                  the buzz-word Jazz. Their music was hot and different from any other
                  Blues-Brassed music. White musicians of Classics music school were
                  like W.C. Handy limited because of their background, although some of
                  them were talented enough to play good Jazz. But the core was
                  Blues-Brassed music of New Orleans that were spreading the music.
                  Later additional bands, like Duke Ellington that didn't have as
                  powerful improvising Swing-Engagement as the New Orleans
                  clarinet-cornet-trombone bands, but they had hot soloist of their own.
                  And Jelly Roll Morton who started the sections idea. The black Hot
                  bands weren't influenced by the white technically, but they played Hot
                  Blues Solo and Swing styles and they were influenced by white written
                  tunes since the beginning of Jazz and maybe even before like marching
                  songs. The sweet tunes of WW1-songs and pre-WW1 served as tunes to
                  improvise on. Then in the 1930's there was a change. The
                  sectioned-Jazz was winning, the Hot Jazz era came to its end. Although
                  the Hot Jazz era was the best and most creative, it is obvious that it
                  couldn't last forever and the reasons are that blacks were tired of
                  Blues and they wanted to play a sweeter music. Soloist wanted to play
                  sweeter music inspired by white technicals instead of the Blues
                  improvisations. Band leaders were inspired by the sections idea which
                  gave room for sweet soloists. The black bands of the 1930's were
                  inspired by their contemporary white bands. On the other hand, white
                  bands were getting hotter. Paul Whiteman was using hotter players than
                  his early, they reduced the natural sweetness of his musical ideas.
                  Other white bandleaders were also looking for hotter inspiration, and
                  at some point it was natural for mixed bands to be assembled. Singing
                  The Blues was what black bands of the 1930's wanted, sweeter tone that
                  is not necessarily swinging in the solo, but a separated swing section
                  (and here is the sections idea again) that makes the music groove.
                  White bands were inspired by the rhythm section of the 1930's black
                  bands. Together they created a music that is lesser in terms of
                  creativity IMO than the 1920's Hot bands but still fine music. So the
                  conclusion is that white artists were directly influencing the 1930's,
                  but they had little if any impact on the Hot solos of the 1920's, they
                  had no impact on the New Orleans Swing-Engagement, and generally the
                  Jazz music wasn't inspired by those with classical music background ,
                  be it whites or W.C. Handy, the only thing was the tunes that were
                  inspired sometimes by white songwriters but the basis Blues and the
                  technical development of players were removed from any alien to the
                  Blues ideas.
                  White Hot-Sweet bands like Tram's, N.O. Rhythm Kings, ODJB were
                  playing their Hot-Sweet music, which was almost as high quality as Hot
                  Bands, but their influence on blacks came mostly in the 1930's and beyond.
                  Tommersl

                  --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Albert, I was referring to the analogy the writer used of white-hot
                  > since that the white-hot is the hottest in this analogy.
                  > Tommersl
                  >






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