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Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: "Singin' the Blues" - 80 years later

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  • Dan Van Landingham
    I m Coming Virginia is a number that never did much for me;The only version that comes to mind was a late 30s Bluebird by Artie Shaw.I agree that Singing
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 4, 2007
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      "I'm Coming Virginia" is a number that never did much for me;The only version that comes to mind was a late '30s Bluebird by Artie Shaw.I agree that "Singing the Blues" by Bix was the best version I have heard.Some years back I had a 78 from the '20s of "Margie",don't ask me
      who recorded it save the fact that below the title of the record were the words "introducing S-
      ing the Blues".I had a Vocalion 78 of Bobby Hackett,leading a group of musicians from the
      Horace Heidt bandmembers.What was neat about the record was that Bix's solo from the 1927 version on OKeh.The only other thing I remember the song was that J. Russel Robinson was listed as the composer.That was my favourite version.Somewhere on an album I have of Fletcher Henderson.It was on a French RCA album from the 1980s.Rex Stewart was the soloist.I believe that the Henderson version was from 1934.

      spacelights <spacelights@...> wrote:
      "Singin' The Blues" is indeed an important record (though I much
      prefer "I'm Coming Virginia" and "In A Mist"). An article in a major
      newspaper like the Wall Street Journal will introduce it to people
      previously unaware (and apparently stir things up among jazz
      enthusiasts). Nolan wisely uses quotation marks for "the first jazz
      ballad"; I'd refer to "Someday Sweetheart", recorded by a Morton band
      in 1923, also in particular Jelly's haunting solo on the Red Hot
      Peppers version of 1926.






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    • Dan Van Landingham
      Someday Sweetheart was another recording that I neverespecially liked but I had a lovely version of it from late 1931 by Joe Venuti-Eddie Lang s All Star
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 4, 2007
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        "Someday Sweetheart" was another recording that I neverespecially liked but I had a lovely version of it from late 1931 by Joe Venuti-Eddie Lang's All Star Orchestra.Goodman played an impassioned solo on it bringing to mind his Columbia recording of "Moonglow" .I believe that was the date that also featured Billie Holiday with Jack Teagarden and a now forgotten tenor saxophonist named Art Karle who now ranks up there with George Snurpus and Ralph Rudder.

        spacelights <spacelights@...> wrote:
        I love "Singin' The Blues" (indeed a very important record). An
        article in a major newspaper like the Wall Street Journal will
        introduce it to people previously unaware (and apparently stir things
        up among jazz enthusiasts). Nolan wisely uses quotation marks for
        "the first jazz ballad"; I'd refer to "Someday Sweetheart", recorded
        by a Morton band in 1923, also in particular Jelly's haunting solo on
        the Red Hot Peppers version of 1926.






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      • drdee51@optonline.net
        Singing The Blues was part of the Original Dixieland Jazz Band s recording of Margie from ca. 1920. Fletcher made a tribute version in about 1931. Bix was
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 4, 2007
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          Singing The Blues was part of the Original Dixieland Jazz Band's recording of Margie from ca. 1920. Fletcher made a tribute version in about 1931. Bix was still alive to hear this tribute to him. Rex Stewart was a great fan of Bix all his life. It is true that Lester carried a copy of Sining the Blues around with him on the road. He had one of those old portable record players that would hold a few 78s in the case very safely.

          That article from the Wall Street Journal impressed me as astonishing. That article read like reprint from something written in the 1930s. It contained all the old time cliches, Crow Jim attitudes, and even could not say that Bix had Alcoholism which is a disease. The writer had to say compulsive drinker. That is as nutty as when Orrin Keepnews (sic) referred to stories of Bix's drinking behavior as "Romance". The writer has perhaps forgotten that this is 2007, not 1937. Although the music was better in 1937 than now, in fact then they had music in the popular culture.
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Dan Van Landingham
          Date: Monday, June 4, 2007 6:17 pm
          Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: "Singin' the Blues" - 80 years later
          To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com

          > "I'm Coming Virginia" is a number that never did much for me;The
          > only version that comes to mind was a late '30s Bluebird by
          > Artie Shaw.I agree that "Singing the Blues" by Bix was the best
          > version I have heard.Some years back I had a 78 from the '20s of
          > "Margie",don't ask me
          > who recorded it save the fact that below the title of the
          > record were the words "introducing S-
          > ing the Blues".I had a Vocalion 78 of Bobby Hackett,leading a
          > group of musicians from the
          > Horace Heidt bandmembers.What was neat about the record was
          > that Bix's solo from the 1927 version on OKeh.The only other
          > thing I remember the song was that J. Russel Robinson was listed
          > as the composer.That was my favourite version.Somewhere on an
          > album I have of Fletcher Henderson.It was on a French RCA album
          > from the 1980s.Rex Stewart was the soloist.I believe that the
          > Henderson version was from 1934.
          >
          > spacelights wrote:
          > "Singin' The Blues" is indeed an important record
          > (though I much
          > prefer "I'm Coming Virginia" and "In A Mist"). An article in a major
          > newspaper like the Wall Street Journal will introduce it to people
          > previously unaware (and apparently stir things up among jazz
          > enthusiasts). Nolan wisely uses quotation marks for "the first jazz
          > ballad"; I'd refer to "Someday Sweetheart", recorded by a Morton band
          > in 1923, also in particular Jelly's haunting solo on the Red Hot
          > Peppers version of 1926.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel
          > today!
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • tommersl
          ... Since the author seems to be careful and selective in his writing, using double-quote precisely in place and etc, I wonder what the White-Hot Jazz Ballad
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 5, 2007
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            --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@...> wrote:
            >
            > The weekend edition (June 2-3, 2007) of The Wall Street Journal
            > carries this very well-written article about the Bix and Tram seminal
            > recording of "Singin' the Blues." Here is the article in its entirety.
            >
            > Albert
            >
            > **********************
            > "MASTERPIECE"
            >
            > White-Hot Jazz Ballad
            > The haunting 'Singin' the Blues' changed American music
            >
            > By TOM NOLAN
            > June 2, 2007; Page P14
            >

            Since the author seems to be careful and selective in his writing,
            using double-quote precisely in place and etc, I wonder what the
            "White-Hot Jazz Ballad" title means. Is it "'White Hot' Jazz Ballad"
            or maybe "White:Hot Jazz Ballad". What is the definition of Hot Jazz?
            Tommersl
          • Albert Haim
            From http://physics.fortlewis.edu/Astronomy/astronomy%20today/CHAISSON/AT303/HTML/AT30304.HTM As an object is heated the radiation it emits peaks at higher and
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 5, 2007
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              From
              http://physics.fortlewis.edu/Astronomy/astronomy%20today/CHAISSON/AT303/HTML/AT30304.HTM

              As an object is heated the radiation it emits peaks at higher and
              higher frequencies. When the metal is at room temperature (300 K— the
              K scale is C + 273) it emits only invisible infrared radiation. At
              1000 K, for instance, most of the emitted radiation is still infrared,
              but now there is also a small amount of visible (dull red) radiation
              being emitted. As the temperature continues to rise, the peak of the
              metal's blackbody curve moves through the visible spectrum, from red
              (4000 K) through yellow. The metal eventually becomes white hot (7000 K).

              The above gives us the scientific definition of "white-hot." It is
              also used in common parlance to refer to degrees of heat of jazz. Of
              course, we have the red hot jazz archive which should be written as
              red-hot jazz. There are degrees of heat for jazz. When heat is absent,
              we call the music sweet. When the music swings and is jazzy, we call
              it hot. Grove on line defines hot jazz as "A term used to describe
              jazz, particularly early jazz and swing, of an exciting and energetic
              nature."

              I think the author is using the term white-hot in two ways.
              Explicitely as an indication that "Singin' the Blues" is not a sweet
              piece of music, and as a play on words to refer to the fact that this
              hot music is played by white musicians.

              Albert







              --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@> wrote:
              > >
              > > The weekend edition (June 2-3, 2007) of The Wall Street Journal
              > > carries this very well-written article about the Bix and Tram seminal
              > > recording of "Singin' the Blues." Here is the article in its entirety.
              > >
              > > Albert
              > >
              > > **********************
              > > "MASTERPIECE"
              > >
              > > White-Hot Jazz Ballad
              > > The haunting 'Singin' the Blues' changed American music
              > >
              > > By TOM NOLAN
              > > June 2, 2007; Page P14
              > >
              >
              > Since the author seems to be careful and selective in his writing,
              > using double-quote precisely in place and etc, I wonder what the
              > "White-Hot Jazz Ballad" title means. Is it "'White Hot' Jazz Ballad"
              > or maybe "White:Hot Jazz Ballad". What is the definition of Hot Jazz?
              > Tommersl
              >
            • tommersl
              Many thanks, it seems logical though I think the writer is overestimating the importance of the recording in terms of Hot Jazz . Lester Young wasn t very much
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 11, 2007
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                Many thanks, it seems logical though I think the writer is
                overestimating the importance of the recording in terms of "Hot Jazz".
                Lester Young wasn't very much the hot player and if he was influenced
                by this recordings it says it's not as "hot" as expected. Lester Young
                had a sweet side in his playing that was even filmed in a movie.
                tommersl

                --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@...> wrote:
                >
                > From
                >
                http://physics.fortlewis.edu/Astronomy/astronomy%20today/CHAISSON/AT303/HTML/AT30304.HTM
                >
                > As an object is heated the radiation it emits peaks at higher and
                > higher frequencies. When the metal is at room temperature (300 K— the
                > K scale is C + 273) it emits only invisible infrared radiation. At
                > 1000 K, for instance, most of the emitted radiation is still infrared,
                > but now there is also a small amount of visible (dull red) radiation
                > being emitted. As the temperature continues to rise, the peak of the
                > metal's blackbody curve moves through the visible spectrum, from red
                > (4000 K) through yellow. The metal eventually becomes white hot
                (7000 K).
                >
                > The above gives us the scientific definition of "white-hot." It is
                > also used in common parlance to refer to degrees of heat of jazz. Of
                > course, we have the red hot jazz archive which should be written as
                > red-hot jazz. There are degrees of heat for jazz. When heat is absent,
                > we call the music sweet. When the music swings and is jazzy, we call
                > it hot. Grove on line defines hot jazz as "A term used to describe
                > jazz, particularly early jazz and swing, of an exciting and energetic
                > nature."
                >
                > I think the author is using the term white-hot in two ways.
                > Explicitely as an indication that "Singin' the Blues" is not a sweet
                > piece of music, and as a play on words to refer to the fact that this
                > hot music is played by white musicians.
                >
                > Albert
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@> wrote:
                > >
                > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > The weekend edition (June 2-3, 2007) of The Wall Street Journal
                > > > carries this very well-written article about the Bix and Tram
                seminal
                > > > recording of "Singin' the Blues." Here is the article in its
                entirety.
                > > >
                > > > Albert
                > > >
                > > > **********************
                > > > "MASTERPIECE"
                > > >
                > > > White-Hot Jazz Ballad
                > > > The haunting 'Singin' the Blues' changed American music
                > > >
                > > > By TOM NOLAN
                > > > June 2, 2007; Page P14
                > > >
                > >
                > > Since the author seems to be careful and selective in his writing,
                > > using double-quote precisely in place and etc, I wonder what the
                > > "White-Hot Jazz Ballad" title means. Is it "'White Hot' Jazz Ballad"
                > > or maybe "White:Hot Jazz Ballad". What is the definition of Hot Jazz?
                > > Tommersl
                > >
                >
              • tommersl
                I was thinking about it further. The writer of the article misunderstood IMO the contribution of Singing The Blues to Jazz history. In his attempt he tries
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 11, 2007
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                  I was thinking about it further. The writer of the article
                  misunderstood IMO the contribution of "Singing The Blues" to Jazz
                  history. In his attempt he tries to show that white artists could be
                  hotter than black artists. The story of mutual influence is quite
                  loose in this case since white bands were tending to become sweeter
                  and black were the hotter, it means that actually he sees single-sided
                  influence! I think that by that he does no service to white huge
                  contribution to Jazz music. First, bands like early Paul Whiteman was
                  turning from a sweet WW1 songs marching band into Jazz band. And
                  several artists like Eddie Lang with the Classical background doing
                  harmonic ideas that were removed from what black Jazz artists were
                  doing at the time. White soloist with Classical background that were
                  adding a sweeter sound and expanding the Jazz idiom. By insisting on
                  the hot terminology we can miss the most contributing. It will be hard
                  to convince me that Singing The Blues solos was hotter than solos by
                  Johnny Dodds, Louis Armstrong or Bubber Miley. But I am convinced that
                  Jazz evolution was changed in the 1930's because of mutual influence.
                  Hot bands became sweeter. Sweet bands were playing hotter Jazz. It
                  made a refinement for both sides. The hot bands couldn't swing forever
                  in that powerful fashion, they needed some sweeter inspiration. Sweet
                  bands that were becoming hot were the best at that. What was so
                  groundbreaking in the New Orleans Rhythm Kings, Trambauer's,
                  Whiteman's and all other hot sweet bands unless they were inspired to
                  become hotter? And without the mutual inspiration would Louis
                  Armstrong and the whole 1930's Swing band would become such romantic
                  unless they were inspired? The best is to be precise.
                  Someone who came from a Classic/Romantic music background is carrying
                  it and someone who was from the simple Blues background carry it. Both
                  sides have to get rid of the limitations of their schools. The rest is
                  a matter of taste. I prefer the rough sound of New Orleans and similar
                  bands of the Hot 1920's Jazz, but I also like the Hot Sweet bands.
                  Recently I am digging those bands. It is ridiculous that people think
                  it's mutual exclusive to like Red Nichols and Bix and from the other
                  hand Johnny Dodds and Bubber Miley. I think all mentioned artists were
                  interesting musicians that contributed each in their own way.
                  Tommersl

                  --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Many thanks, it seems logical though I think the writer is
                  > overestimating the importance of the recording in terms of "Hot Jazz".
                  > Lester Young wasn't very much the hot player and if he was influenced
                  > by this recordings it says it's not as "hot" as expected. Lester Young
                  > had a sweet side in his playing that was even filmed in a movie.
                  > tommersl
                  >
                  > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > From
                  > >
                  >
                  http://physics.fortlewis.edu/Astronomy/astronomy%20today/CHAISSON/AT303/HTML/AT30304.HTM
                  > >
                  > > As an object is heated the radiation it emits peaks at higher and
                  > > higher frequencies. When the metal is at room temperature (300 K— the
                  > > K scale is C + 273) it emits only invisible infrared radiation. At
                  > > 1000 K, for instance, most of the emitted radiation is still infrared,
                  > > but now there is also a small amount of visible (dull red) radiation
                  > > being emitted. As the temperature continues to rise, the peak of the
                  > > metal's blackbody curve moves through the visible spectrum, from red
                  > > (4000 K) through yellow. The metal eventually becomes white hot
                  > (7000 K).
                  > >
                  > > The above gives us the scientific definition of "white-hot." It is
                  > > also used in common parlance to refer to degrees of heat of jazz. Of
                  > > course, we have the red hot jazz archive which should be written as
                  > > red-hot jazz. There are degrees of heat for jazz. When heat is absent,
                  > > we call the music sweet. When the music swings and is jazzy, we call
                  > > it hot. Grove on line defines hot jazz as "A term used to describe
                  > > jazz, particularly early jazz and swing, of an exciting and energetic
                  > > nature."
                  > >
                  > > I think the author is using the term white-hot in two ways.
                  > > Explicitely as an indication that "Singin' the Blues" is not a sweet
                  > > piece of music, and as a play on words to refer to the fact that this
                  > > hot music is played by white musicians.
                  > >
                  > > Albert
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@>
                  wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > The weekend edition (June 2-3, 2007) of The Wall Street Journal
                  > > > > carries this very well-written article about the Bix and Tram
                  > seminal
                  > > > > recording of "Singin' the Blues." Here is the article in its
                  > entirety.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Albert
                  > > > >
                  > > > > **********************
                  > > > > "MASTERPIECE"
                  > > > >
                  > > > > White-Hot Jazz Ballad
                  > > > > The haunting 'Singin' the Blues' changed American music
                  > > > >
                  > > > > By TOM NOLAN
                  > > > > June 2, 2007; Page P14
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Since the author seems to be careful and selective in his writing,
                  > > > using double-quote precisely in place and etc, I wonder what the
                  > > > "White-Hot Jazz Ballad" title means. Is it "'White Hot' Jazz Ballad"
                  > > > or maybe "White:Hot Jazz Ballad". What is the definition of Hot
                  Jazz?
                  > > > Tommersl
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Albert Haim
                  Tommersel, You write, The writer of the article misunderstood IMO the contribution of Singing The Blues to Jazz history. In his attempt he tries to show
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 12, 2007
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                    Tommersel,

                    You write, "The writer of the article misunderstood IMO the
                    contribution of "Singing The Blues" to Jazz history. In his attempt he
                    tries to show that white artists could be hotter than black artists."
                    I am afraid you misundestood what the writer told us. I do not see,
                    implictly or explicitly any place in the article where the writer
                    "tries to show that white artists could be hotter than black artists."

                    The following are the descriptions used by the author.

                    - "Singin' the Blues" had a subtle swing and a lyrical quality.

                    - Trumbauer and Beiderbecke's nearly three-minute platter would be
                    called "the first jazz ballad," and its haunting sound would forever
                    affect the course of America's indigenous music.

                    - "Singin' the Blues" starts off at a midtempo, foot-tapping pace that
                    suggests a very brisk walk along a country lane.

                    - His [Trumbauer's] improvised paraphrases and loping commentary on
                    the melody, played over the impeccably fingered lines of 24-year-old
                    acoustic-guitarist Eddie Lang, seem at once exuberant and thoughtful,
                    rhythmic and ruminative: 32 bars that mix the inevitability of art
                    with the ease of conversation.

                    - The second chorus belongs to Beiderbecke, a young man with a horn
                    playing on and around and in between the beat, in poignant phrases
                    that hit with force but leave a wistful echo.

                    I re-read the article carefully after you posted your comments, and I
                    cannot find any sentence or phrase where the author claims that
                    "white artists could be hotter than black artists." Here are the
                    pertinent quotes about back and white musicans.

                    - By 1927, both Beiderbecke and Trumbauer were already well known to
                    other white players of "hot" jazz. After "Singin' the Blues," they
                    became known to black players as well. "Singin' the Blues," billed on
                    its black-and-gold Okeh label as by "Frankie Trumbauer & His Orchestra
                    with Bix and Lang," rolled into all corners of a segregated America.

                    - Musicians all over the country learned to play those Beiderbecke and
                    Trumbauer solos note for note. Fletcher Henderson, the celebrated
                    African-American orchestra leader, had Caucasian arranger and
                    Beiderbecke disciple Bill Challis score "Singin' the Blues" for his
                    band with Tram's chorus written out for the whole reed section; and
                    when Henderson recorded it, he asked his own cornet star Rex Stewart
                    to emulate Bix's solo.

                    - Modern-era clarinetist Kenny Davern told jazz scholar Dick Sudhalter
                    of having once witnessed two black tenor-men, swing-to-bebop master
                    Don Byas and the veteran Eddie Barefield (yes, the same man on whose
                    door Lester Young once knocked), take out their horns during a chance
                    encounter in the 1960s and spontaneously run through Trumbauer's 1927
                    chorus from "Singin' the Blues." They told an astonished Davern,
                    "Everybody knew that chorus."

                    The author is not asserting that "white artists could be hotter than
                    balck artists." He is simply pointing out the tremendous impact that
                    Bix and Tram's recording of "Singin' the Blues" had in the jazz
                    community, black and white.

                    Albert


                    --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I was thinking about it further. The writer of the article
                    > misunderstood IMO the contribution of "Singing The Blues" to Jazz
                    > history. In his attempt he tries to show that white artists could be
                    > hotter than black artists. The story of mutual influence is quite
                    > loose in this case since white bands were tending to become sweeter
                    > and black were the hotter, it means that actually he sees single-sided
                    > influence! I think that by that he does no service to white huge
                    > contribution to Jazz music. First, bands like early Paul Whiteman was
                    > turning from a sweet WW1 songs marching band into Jazz band. And
                    > several artists like Eddie Lang with the Classical background doing
                    > harmonic ideas that were removed from what black Jazz artists were
                    > doing at the time. White soloist with Classical background that were
                    > adding a sweeter sound and expanding the Jazz idiom. By insisting on
                    > the hot terminology we can miss the most contributing. It will be hard
                    > to convince me that Singing The Blues solos was hotter than solos by
                    > Johnny Dodds, Louis Armstrong or Bubber Miley. But I am convinced that
                    > Jazz evolution was changed in the 1930's because of mutual influence.
                    > Hot bands became sweeter. Sweet bands were playing hotter Jazz. It
                    > made a refinement for both sides. The hot bands couldn't swing forever
                    > in that powerful fashion, they needed some sweeter inspiration. Sweet
                    > bands that were becoming hot were the best at that. What was so
                    > groundbreaking in the New Orleans Rhythm Kings, Trambauer's,
                    > Whiteman's and all other hot sweet bands unless they were inspired to
                    > become hotter? And without the mutual inspiration would Louis
                    > Armstrong and the whole 1930's Swing band would become such romantic
                    > unless they were inspired? The best is to be precise.
                    > Someone who came from a Classic/Romantic music background is carrying
                    > it and someone who was from the simple Blues background carry it. Both
                    > sides have to get rid of the limitations of their schools. The rest is
                    > a matter of taste. I prefer the rough sound of New Orleans and similar
                    > bands of the Hot 1920's Jazz, but I also like the Hot Sweet bands.
                    > Recently I am digging those bands. It is ridiculous that people think
                    > it's mutual exclusive to like Red Nichols and Bix and from the other
                    > hand Johnny Dodds and Bubber Miley. I think all mentioned artists were
                    > interesting musicians that contributed each in their own way.
                    > Tommersl
                    >
                    > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Many thanks, it seems logical though I think the writer is
                    > > overestimating the importance of the recording in terms of "Hot Jazz".
                    > > Lester Young wasn't very much the hot player and if he was influenced
                    > > by this recordings it says it's not as "hot" as expected. Lester Young
                    > > had a sweet side in his playing that was even filmed in a movie.
                    > > tommersl
                    > >
                    > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > From
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                    http://physics.fortlewis.edu/Astronomy/astronomy%20today/CHAISSON/AT303/HTML/AT30304.HTM
                    > > >
                    > > > As an object is heated the radiation it emits peaks at higher and
                    > > > higher frequencies. When the metal is at room temperature (300
                    K— the
                    > > > K scale is C + 273) it emits only invisible infrared radiation. At
                    > > > 1000 K, for instance, most of the emitted radiation is still
                    infrared,
                    > > > but now there is also a small amount of visible (dull red) radiation
                    > > > being emitted. As the temperature continues to rise, the peak of the
                    > > > metal's blackbody curve moves through the visible spectrum, from red
                    > > > (4000 K) through yellow. The metal eventually becomes white hot
                    > > (7000 K).
                    > > >
                    > > > The above gives us the scientific definition of "white-hot." It is
                    > > > also used in common parlance to refer to degrees of heat of jazz. Of
                    > > > course, we have the red hot jazz archive which should be written as
                    > > > red-hot jazz. There are degrees of heat for jazz. When heat is
                    absent,
                    > > > we call the music sweet. When the music swings and is jazzy, we call
                    > > > it hot. Grove on line defines hot jazz as "A term used to describe
                    > > > jazz, particularly early jazz and swing, of an exciting and
                    energetic
                    > > > nature."
                    > > >
                    > > > I think the author is using the term white-hot in two ways.
                    > > > Explicitely as an indication that "Singin' the Blues" is not a sweet
                    > > > piece of music, and as a play on words to refer to the fact that
                    this
                    > > > hot music is played by white musicians.
                    > > >
                    > > > Albert
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@>
                    > wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > The weekend edition (June 2-3, 2007) of The Wall Street Journal
                    > > > > > carries this very well-written article about the Bix and Tram
                    > > seminal
                    > > > > > recording of "Singin' the Blues." Here is the article in its
                    > > entirety.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Albert
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > **********************
                    > > > > > "MASTERPIECE"
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > White-Hot Jazz Ballad
                    > > > > > The haunting 'Singin' the Blues' changed American music
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > By TOM NOLAN
                    > > > > > June 2, 2007; Page P14
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Since the author seems to be careful and selective in his writing,
                    > > > > using double-quote precisely in place and etc, I wonder what the
                    > > > > "White-Hot Jazz Ballad" title means. Is it "'White Hot' Jazz
                    Ballad"
                    > > > > or maybe "White:Hot Jazz Ballad". What is the definition of Hot
                    > Jazz?
                    > > > > Tommersl
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • tommersl
                    Albert, I was referring to the analogy the writer used of white-hot since that the white-hot is the hottest in this analogy. Tommersl ... Jazz . ... influenced
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 12, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Albert, I was referring to the analogy the writer used of white-hot
                      since that the white-hot is the hottest in this analogy.
                      Tommersl

                      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Tommersel,
                      >
                      > You write, "The writer of the article misunderstood IMO the
                      > contribution of "Singing The Blues" to Jazz history. In his attempt he
                      > tries to show that white artists could be hotter than black artists."
                      > I am afraid you misundestood what the writer told us. I do not see,
                      > implictly or explicitly any place in the article where the writer
                      > "tries to show that white artists could be hotter than black artists."
                      >
                      > The following are the descriptions used by the author.
                      >
                      > - "Singin' the Blues" had a subtle swing and a lyrical quality.
                      >
                      > - Trumbauer and Beiderbecke's nearly three-minute platter would be
                      > called "the first jazz ballad," and its haunting sound would forever
                      > affect the course of America's indigenous music.
                      >
                      > - "Singin' the Blues" starts off at a midtempo, foot-tapping pace that
                      > suggests a very brisk walk along a country lane.
                      >
                      > - His [Trumbauer's] improvised paraphrases and loping commentary on
                      > the melody, played over the impeccably fingered lines of 24-year-old
                      > acoustic-guitarist Eddie Lang, seem at once exuberant and thoughtful,
                      > rhythmic and ruminative: 32 bars that mix the inevitability of art
                      > with the ease of conversation.
                      >
                      > - The second chorus belongs to Beiderbecke, a young man with a horn
                      > playing on and around and in between the beat, in poignant phrases
                      > that hit with force but leave a wistful echo.
                      >
                      > I re-read the article carefully after you posted your comments, and I
                      > cannot find any sentence or phrase where the author claims that
                      > "white artists could be hotter than black artists." Here are the
                      > pertinent quotes about back and white musicans.
                      >
                      > - By 1927, both Beiderbecke and Trumbauer were already well known to
                      > other white players of "hot" jazz. After "Singin' the Blues," they
                      > became known to black players as well. "Singin' the Blues," billed on
                      > its black-and-gold Okeh label as by "Frankie Trumbauer & His Orchestra
                      > with Bix and Lang," rolled into all corners of a segregated America.
                      >
                      > - Musicians all over the country learned to play those Beiderbecke and
                      > Trumbauer solos note for note. Fletcher Henderson, the celebrated
                      > African-American orchestra leader, had Caucasian arranger and
                      > Beiderbecke disciple Bill Challis score "Singin' the Blues" for his
                      > band with Tram's chorus written out for the whole reed section; and
                      > when Henderson recorded it, he asked his own cornet star Rex Stewart
                      > to emulate Bix's solo.
                      >
                      > - Modern-era clarinetist Kenny Davern told jazz scholar Dick Sudhalter
                      > of having once witnessed two black tenor-men, swing-to-bebop master
                      > Don Byas and the veteran Eddie Barefield (yes, the same man on whose
                      > door Lester Young once knocked), take out their horns during a chance
                      > encounter in the 1960s and spontaneously run through Trumbauer's 1927
                      > chorus from "Singin' the Blues." They told an astonished Davern,
                      > "Everybody knew that chorus."
                      >
                      > The author is not asserting that "white artists could be hotter than
                      > balck artists." He is simply pointing out the tremendous impact that
                      > Bix and Tram's recording of "Singin' the Blues" had in the jazz
                      > community, black and white.
                      >
                      > Albert
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I was thinking about it further. The writer of the article
                      > > misunderstood IMO the contribution of "Singing The Blues" to Jazz
                      > > history. In his attempt he tries to show that white artists could be
                      > > hotter than black artists. The story of mutual influence is quite
                      > > loose in this case since white bands were tending to become sweeter
                      > > and black were the hotter, it means that actually he sees single-sided
                      > > influence! I think that by that he does no service to white huge
                      > > contribution to Jazz music. First, bands like early Paul Whiteman was
                      > > turning from a sweet WW1 songs marching band into Jazz band. And
                      > > several artists like Eddie Lang with the Classical background doing
                      > > harmonic ideas that were removed from what black Jazz artists were
                      > > doing at the time. White soloist with Classical background that were
                      > > adding a sweeter sound and expanding the Jazz idiom. By insisting on
                      > > the hot terminology we can miss the most contributing. It will be hard
                      > > to convince me that Singing The Blues solos was hotter than solos by
                      > > Johnny Dodds, Louis Armstrong or Bubber Miley. But I am convinced that
                      > > Jazz evolution was changed in the 1930's because of mutual influence.
                      > > Hot bands became sweeter. Sweet bands were playing hotter Jazz. It
                      > > made a refinement for both sides. The hot bands couldn't swing forever
                      > > in that powerful fashion, they needed some sweeter inspiration. Sweet
                      > > bands that were becoming hot were the best at that. What was so
                      > > groundbreaking in the New Orleans Rhythm Kings, Trambauer's,
                      > > Whiteman's and all other hot sweet bands unless they were inspired to
                      > > become hotter? And without the mutual inspiration would Louis
                      > > Armstrong and the whole 1930's Swing band would become such romantic
                      > > unless they were inspired? The best is to be precise.
                      > > Someone who came from a Classic/Romantic music background is carrying
                      > > it and someone who was from the simple Blues background carry it. Both
                      > > sides have to get rid of the limitations of their schools. The rest is
                      > > a matter of taste. I prefer the rough sound of New Orleans and similar
                      > > bands of the Hot 1920's Jazz, but I also like the Hot Sweet bands.
                      > > Recently I am digging those bands. It is ridiculous that people think
                      > > it's mutual exclusive to like Red Nichols and Bix and from the other
                      > > hand Johnny Dodds and Bubber Miley. I think all mentioned artists were
                      > > interesting musicians that contributed each in their own way.
                      > > Tommersl
                      > >
                      > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Many thanks, it seems logical though I think the writer is
                      > > > overestimating the importance of the recording in terms of "Hot
                      Jazz".
                      > > > Lester Young wasn't very much the hot player and if he was
                      influenced
                      > > > by this recordings it says it's not as "hot" as expected. Lester
                      Young
                      > > > had a sweet side in his playing that was even filmed in a movie.
                      > > > tommersl
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@>
                      wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > From
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      http://physics.fortlewis.edu/Astronomy/astronomy%20today/CHAISSON/AT303/HTML/AT30304.HTM
                      > > > >
                      > > > > As an object is heated the radiation it emits peaks at higher and
                      > > > > higher frequencies. When the metal is at room temperature (300
                      > K— the
                      > > > > K scale is C + 273) it emits only invisible infrared radiation. At
                      > > > > 1000 K, for instance, most of the emitted radiation is still
                      > infrared,
                      > > > > but now there is also a small amount of visible (dull red)
                      radiation
                      > > > > being emitted. As the temperature continues to rise, the peak
                      of the
                      > > > > metal's blackbody curve moves through the visible spectrum,
                      from red
                      > > > > (4000 K) through yellow. The metal eventually becomes white hot
                      > > > (7000 K).
                      > > > >
                      > > > > The above gives us the scientific definition of "white-hot." It is
                      > > > > also used in common parlance to refer to degrees of heat of
                      jazz. Of
                      > > > > course, we have the red hot jazz archive which should be
                      written as
                      > > > > red-hot jazz. There are degrees of heat for jazz. When heat is
                      > absent,
                      > > > > we call the music sweet. When the music swings and is jazzy,
                      we call
                      > > > > it hot. Grove on line defines hot jazz as "A term used to describe
                      > > > > jazz, particularly early jazz and swing, of an exciting and
                      > energetic
                      > > > > nature."
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I think the author is using the term white-hot in two ways.
                      > > > > Explicitely as an indication that "Singin' the Blues" is not a
                      sweet
                      > > > > piece of music, and as a play on words to refer to the fact that
                      > this
                      > > > > hot music is played by white musicians.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Albert
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > The weekend edition (June 2-3, 2007) of The Wall Street
                      Journal
                      > > > > > > carries this very well-written article about the Bix and Tram
                      > > > seminal
                      > > > > > > recording of "Singin' the Blues." Here is the article in its
                      > > > entirety.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Albert
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > **********************
                      > > > > > > "MASTERPIECE"
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > White-Hot Jazz Ballad
                      > > > > > > The haunting 'Singin' the Blues' changed American music
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > By TOM NOLAN
                      > > > > > > June 2, 2007; Page P14
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Since the author seems to be careful and selective in his
                      writing,
                      > > > > > using double-quote precisely in place and etc, I wonder what the
                      > > > > > "White-Hot Jazz Ballad" title means. Is it "'White Hot' Jazz
                      > Ballad"
                      > > > > > or maybe "White:Hot Jazz Ballad". What is the definition of Hot
                      > > Jazz?
                      > > > > > Tommersl
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • tommersl
                      Jazz early history is IMO this way: people were brassing the Blues music. Some of them with Classics music background like W.C. Handy and some like Buddy
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 12, 2007
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                        Jazz early history is IMO this way: people were brassing the Blues
                        music. Some of them with Classics music background like W.C. Handy and
                        some like Buddy Bolden from the Blues point of view. The Buddy Bolden
                        and New-Orleans Creoles and blacks created the the most significance
                        music of the Blues-Brassing wave, that was linked at some point with
                        the buzz-word Jazz. Their music was hot and different from any other
                        Blues-Brassed music. White musicians of Classics music school were
                        like W.C. Handy limited because of their background, although some of
                        them were talented enough to play good Jazz. But the core was
                        Blues-Brassed music of New Orleans that were spreading the music.
                        Later additional bands, like Duke Ellington that didn't have as
                        powerful improvising Swing-Engagement as the New Orleans
                        clarinet-cornet-trombone bands, but they had hot soloist of their own.
                        And Jelly Roll Morton who started the sections idea. The black Hot
                        bands weren't influenced by the white technically, but they played Hot
                        Blues Solo and Swing styles and they were influenced by white written
                        tunes since the beginning of Jazz and maybe even before like marching
                        songs. The sweet tunes of WW1-songs and pre-WW1 served as tunes to
                        improvise on. Then in the 1930's there was a change. The
                        sectioned-Jazz was winning, the Hot Jazz era came to its end. Although
                        the Hot Jazz era was the best and most creative, it is obvious that it
                        couldn't last forever and the reasons are that blacks were tired of
                        Blues and they wanted to play a sweeter music. Soloist wanted to play
                        sweeter music inspired by white technicals instead of the Blues
                        improvisations. Band leaders were inspired by the sections idea which
                        gave room for sweet soloists. The black bands of the 1930's were
                        inspired by their contemporary white bands. On the other hand, white
                        bands were getting hotter. Paul Whiteman was using hotter players than
                        his early, they reduced the natural sweetness of his musical ideas.
                        Other white bandleaders were also looking for hotter inspiration, and
                        at some point it was natural for mixed bands to be assembled. Singing
                        The Blues was what black bands of the 1930's wanted, sweeter tone that
                        is not necessarily swinging in the solo, but a separated swing section
                        (and here is the sections idea again) that makes the music groove.
                        White bands were inspired by the rhythm section of the 1930's black
                        bands. Together they created a music that is lesser in terms of
                        creativity IMO than the 1920's Hot bands but still fine music. So the
                        conclusion is that white artists were directly influencing the 1930's,
                        but they had little if any impact on the Hot solos of the 1920's, they
                        had no impact on the New Orleans Swing-Engagement, and generally the
                        Jazz music wasn't inspired by those with classical music background ,
                        be it whites or W.C. Handy, the only thing was the tunes that were
                        inspired sometimes by white songwriters but the basis Blues and the
                        technical development of players were removed from any alien to the
                        Blues ideas.
                        White Hot-Sweet bands like Tram's, N.O. Rhythm Kings, ODJB were
                        playing their Hot-Sweet music, which was almost as high quality as Hot
                        Bands, but their influence on blacks came mostly in the 1930's and beyond.
                        Tommersl

                        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Albert, I was referring to the analogy the writer used of white-hot
                        > since that the white-hot is the hottest in this analogy.
                        > Tommersl
                        >
                      • Dan Van Landingham
                        You ve given me something to think about as I have overlooked some of the 1920s white bands.At one time I had quite a collection of 1920s big bands on several
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 13, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          You've given me something to think about as I have overlooked some of the 1920s white bands.At one time I had quite a collection of 1920s big bands on several long since defunct labels.This is where your website comes in handy.I'm usually there listening to the different
                          bands many of which I've never heard of.Question:can anyone give me more input on Charles Pierce,the Chicago butcher who cut a great version of "China Boy"?

                          tommersl <tommersl@...> wrote:
                          Jazz early history is IMO this way: people were brassing the Blues
                          music. Some of them with Classics music background like W.C. Handy and
                          some like Buddy Bolden from the Blues point of view. The Buddy Bolden
                          and New-Orleans Creoles and blacks created the the most significance
                          music of the Blues-Brassing wave, that was linked at some point with
                          the buzz-word Jazz. Their music was hot and different from any other
                          Blues-Brassed music. White musicians of Classics music school were
                          like W.C. Handy limited because of their background, although some of
                          them were talented enough to play good Jazz. But the core was
                          Blues-Brassed music of New Orleans that were spreading the music.
                          Later additional bands, like Duke Ellington that didn't have as
                          powerful improvising Swing-Engagement as the New Orleans
                          clarinet-cornet-trombone bands, but they had hot soloist of their own.
                          And Jelly Roll Morton who started the sections idea. The black Hot
                          bands weren't influenced by the white technically, but they played Hot
                          Blues Solo and Swing styles and they were influenced by white written
                          tunes since the beginning of Jazz and maybe even before like marching
                          songs. The sweet tunes of WW1-songs and pre-WW1 served as tunes to
                          improvise on. Then in the 1930's there was a change. The
                          sectioned-Jazz was winning, the Hot Jazz era came to its end. Although
                          the Hot Jazz era was the best and most creative, it is obvious that it
                          couldn't last forever and the reasons are that blacks were tired of
                          Blues and they wanted to play a sweeter music. Soloist wanted to play
                          sweeter music inspired by white technicals instead of the Blues
                          improvisations. Band leaders were inspired by the sections idea which
                          gave room for sweet soloists. The black bands of the 1930's were
                          inspired by their contemporary white bands. On the other hand, white
                          bands were getting hotter. Paul Whiteman was using hotter players than
                          his early, they reduced the natural sweetness of his musical ideas.
                          Other white bandleaders were also looking for hotter inspiration, and
                          at some point it was natural for mixed bands to be assembled. Singing
                          The Blues was what black bands of the 1930's wanted, sweeter tone that
                          is not necessarily swinging in the solo, but a separated swing section
                          (and here is the sections idea again) that makes the music groove.
                          White bands were inspired by the rhythm section of the 1930's black
                          bands. Together they created a music that is lesser in terms of
                          creativity IMO than the 1920's Hot bands but still fine music. So the
                          conclusion is that white artists were directly influencing the 1930's,
                          but they had little if any impact on the Hot solos of the 1920's, they
                          had no impact on the New Orleans Swing-Engagement, and generally the
                          Jazz music wasn't inspired by those with classical music background ,
                          be it whites or W.C. Handy, the only thing was the tunes that were
                          inspired sometimes by white songwriters but the basis Blues and the
                          technical development of players were removed from any alien to the
                          Blues ideas.
                          White Hot-Sweet bands like Tram's, N.O. Rhythm Kings, ODJB were
                          playing their Hot-Sweet music, which was almost as high quality as Hot
                          Bands, but their influence on blacks came mostly in the 1930's and beyond.
                          Tommersl

                          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Albert, I was referring to the analogy the writer used of white-hot
                          > since that the white-hot is the hottest in this analogy.
                          > Tommersl
                          >






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