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"Singin' the Blues" - 80 years later

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  • Albert Haim
    The weekend edition (June 2-3, 2007) of The Wall Street Journal carries this very well-written article about the Bix and Tram seminal recording of Singin the
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 4, 2007
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      The weekend edition (June 2-3, 2007) of The Wall Street Journal
      carries this very well-written article about the Bix and Tram seminal
      recording of "Singin' the Blues." Here is the article in its entirety.

      Albert

      **********************
      "MASTERPIECE"

      White-Hot Jazz Ballad
      The haunting 'Singin' the Blues' changed American music

      By TOM NOLAN
      June 2, 2007; Page P14

      Eighty years ago, seven young white jazz musicians, led by a
      25-year-old saxophonist from Illinois named Frankie Trumbauer, and
      including the 23-year-old Iowa-born cornet player Bix Beiderbecke,
      made a recording in New York of a tune called "Singin' the Blues."

      No one had heard anything quite like this disc in the 10 years since
      "the first jazz record" had been made, also in New York, by the
      Original Dixieland Jass Band (a group of white players from New
      Orleans). "Singin' the Blues" had a subtle swing and a lyrical quality
      that seemed a world apart from the ODJB's raucous uproar (though it
      was that same band's pianist, J. Russel Robinson, who co-wrote
      "Singin' the Blues"). Trumbauer and Beiderbecke's nearly three-minute
      platter would be called "the first jazz ballad," and its haunting
      sound would forever affect the course of America's indigenous music.

      "Singin' the Blues" starts off at a midtempo, foot-tapping pace that
      suggests a very brisk walk along a country lane. After a four-bar
      ensemble intro, Trumbauer takes the opening chorus, playing C-melody
      saxophone (a now-obsolete instrument, a cross between alto and tenor).
      His improvised paraphrases and loping commentary on the melody, played
      over the impeccably fingered lines of 24-year-old acoustic-guitarist
      Eddie Lang, seem at once exuberant and thoughtful, rhythmic and
      ruminative: 32 bars that mix the inevitability of art with the ease of
      conversation.

      The second chorus belongs to Beiderbecke, a young man with a horn
      playing on and around and in between the beat, in poignant phrases
      that hit with force but leave a wistful echo. Some describe
      Beiderbecke's tone as silvery; others, golden. But the strong,
      shimmering, personal sound of Bix always seems to stir the memory and
      touch the heart.

      The song's final 30 seconds (after a tentative eight-bar clarinet solo
      by a 22-year-old Jimmy Dorsey) are played by the ensemble; but
      Beiderbecke's cornet is front and center, shouting and strutting with
      authority, leading the way right up to drummer Chauncey Morehouse's
      last emphatic foot-cymbal chomp.

      By 1927, both Beiderbecke and Trumbauer were already well known to
      other white players of "hot" jazz. After "Singin' the Blues," they
      became known to black players as well. "Singin' the Blues," billed on
      its black-and-gold Okeh label as by "Frankie Trumbauer & His Orchestra
      with Bix and Lang," rolled into all corners of a segregated America.

      In the winter of 1927-28, in a hotel in Bismarck, N.D., a teenage
      saxophonist named Lester Young heard a record being played in the room
      of fellow traveling musician Eddie Barefield, and knocked on the door
      to ask what it was: "Singin' the Blues." Young, who would become one
      of the most important figures in jazz, a primal influence on at least
      two generations of saxophonists, both black and white, is said to have
      carried a copy of that Okeh 78 in his tenor-saxophone case for years.
      Those who listened could often hear whimsical traces of Trumbauer and
      little bursts of Bix in Young's driving, ethereal playing.

      What players such as Young responded to in "Singin' the Blues" was the
      way both Bix and "Tram" constructed their solos -- not out of
      disconnected "hot licks" and tricky '20s gimmicks, but with
      thoughtful, balanced phrases that "said" something. "Trumbauer always
      told a little story," Lester Young observed. In 2003, a 93-year-old
      Artie Shaw said: "Listen to Trumbauer's solo on 'Singin' the Blues.'
      It's like a poem."

      Musicians all over the country learned to play those Beiderbecke and
      Trumbauer solos note for note. Fletcher Henderson, the celebrated
      African-American orchestra leader, had Caucasian arranger and
      Beiderbecke disciple Bill Challis score "Singin' the Blues" for his
      band with Tram's chorus written out for the whole reed section; and
      when Henderson recorded it, he asked his own cornet star Rex Stewart
      to emulate Bix's solo.

      Benny Carter plays trumpet on a 1939 Lionel Hampton small-group
      recording of "Singin' the Blues," though Carter was better known as an
      alto saxophonist. Late in life, Carter recalled with pleasure to
      writer Don Heckman how he and the Italian-American tenor-saxophonist
      Flip Phillips once warmed up before a 1950s concert by playing Tram's
      "Singin' the Blues" solo in unison from memory.

      Modern-era clarinetist Kenny Davern told jazz scholar Dick Sudhalter
      of having once witnessed two black tenor-men, swing-to-bebop master
      Don Byas and the veteran Eddie Barefield (yes, the same man on whose
      door Lester Young once knocked), take out their horns during a chance
      encounter in the 1960s and spontaneously run through Trumbauer's 1927
      chorus from "Singin' the Blues." They told an astonished Davern,
      "Everybody knew that chorus."

      Frankie Trumbauer (whose birthday was May 30) lived until 1956, but
      his style of playing was edged aside before the Swing Era. A longtime
      amateur pilot, in 1939 he joined the Civil Aeronautics Authority.
      Maybe he, like others, later discerned beguiling wisps of his and
      Bix's '20s lyricism floating throughout the 1950s "cool school" of jazz.

      Bix Beiderbecke, a compulsive drinker, died in New York in 1931, at
      the age of 28. Ten years later, when Bill Challis, who'd done much to
      preserve and perpetuate Beiderbecke's music, brought some Bix-evoking
      arrangements to Glenn Miller, the popular bandleader rejected
      Challis's charts: He said people didn't know or care about Beiderbecke
      anymore.

      But some did. Some still do.

      Mr. Nolan is editor of "The Archer Files: The Complete Short Stories
      of Lew Archer, Private Investigator, by Ross Macdonald," forthcoming
      from Crippen & Landru.
    • Robert Smith
      Tom Nolan makes some very extravagant claims in his article about Singin The Blues . To imply that nothing of any consequence had happened in the jazz world
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 4, 2007
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        Tom Nolan makes some very extravagant claims in his article about "Singin' The Blues". To imply that nothing of any consequence had happened in the jazz world between 1917 and 1927 is really something. During that period King Oliver, Jelly Roll Morton, Louis Armstrong (Hot Five), Duke Ellington, Fletcher Henderson, just to name a few had all made records that would live on as America's only contribution of an art form that would shake the world.

        Bix Beiderbecke had the tone and the skill that would have enthralled any bandmaster, but he and the band he played in could be likened to any average dance band in the 1920's. The only person playing jazz in "Singin' The Blues" is Eddie Lang, who always swings and can drive a band properly.

        The apocryphal story about Lester Young carrying a 10" 78 record in his tenor saxophone case seems to me to be highly unlikely. Even if there is room for a very brittle shellac record in the instrument case, I think it highly unlikely that it would remain in one piece for very long.

        Cheers

        Bob Smith


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Albert Haim
        You write, Tom Nolan makes some very extravagant claims in his article about Singin The Blues . To imply that nothing of any consequence had happened in the
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 4, 2007
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          You write, "Tom Nolan makes some very extravagant claims in his
          article about "Singin' The Blues". To imply that nothing of any
          consequence had happened in the jazz world between 1917 and 1927 is
          really something."

          Tom Nolan did not explicitely state nor did he imply that nothing of
          consequence had happened in the jazz world between 1917 and 1927."
          What Tom Nolan wrote exactly is "No one had heard anything quite like
          this disc in the 10 years since "the first jazz record" had been
          made..." There is a world of difference between "nothing of
          consequence had happened" and "no one had heard anything quite like
          this". Indeed, the recording of "Singin' the Blues" by Bix and Tram
          and Lang was unique in many respects. This is not to say that other
          recordings from the era were not of consequence.

          Albert Haim

          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Smith" <robert.smith@...>
          wrote:
          >
          >
          > Tom Nolan makes some very extravagant claims in his article about
          "Singin' The Blues". To imply that nothing of any consequence had
          happened in the jazz world between 1917 and 1927 is really something.
          During that period King Oliver, Jelly Roll Morton, Louis Armstrong
          (Hot Five), Duke Ellington, Fletcher Henderson, just to name a few had
          all made records that would live on as America's only contribution of
          an art form that would shake the world.
          >
          > Bix Beiderbecke had the tone and the skill that would have
          enthralled any bandmaster, but he and the band he played in could be
          likened to any average dance band in the 1920's. The only person
          playing jazz in "Singin' The Blues" is Eddie Lang, who always swings
          and can drive a band properly.
          >
          > The apocryphal story about Lester Young carrying a 10" 78 record in
          his tenor saxophone case seems to me to be highly unlikely. Even if
          there is room for a very brittle shellac record in the instrument
          case, I think it highly unlikely that it would remain in one piece for
          very long.
          >
          > Cheers
          >
          > Bob Smith
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • spacelights
          Singin The Blues is indeed an important record (though I much prefer I m Coming Virginia and In A Mist ). An article in a major newspaper like the Wall
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 4, 2007
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            "Singin' The Blues" is indeed an important record (though I much
            prefer "I'm Coming Virginia" and "In A Mist"). An article in a major
            newspaper like the Wall Street Journal will introduce it to people
            previously unaware (and apparently stir things up among jazz
            enthusiasts). Nolan wisely uses quotation marks for "the first jazz
            ballad"; I'd refer to "Someday Sweetheart", recorded by a Morton band
            in 1923, also in particular Jelly's haunting solo on the Red Hot
            Peppers version of 1926.
          • Dan Van Landingham
            I m Coming Virginia is a number that never did much for me;The only version that comes to mind was a late 30s Bluebird by Artie Shaw.I agree that Singing
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 4, 2007
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              "I'm Coming Virginia" is a number that never did much for me;The only version that comes to mind was a late '30s Bluebird by Artie Shaw.I agree that "Singing the Blues" by Bix was the best version I have heard.Some years back I had a 78 from the '20s of "Margie",don't ask me
              who recorded it save the fact that below the title of the record were the words "introducing S-
              ing the Blues".I had a Vocalion 78 of Bobby Hackett,leading a group of musicians from the
              Horace Heidt bandmembers.What was neat about the record was that Bix's solo from the 1927 version on OKeh.The only other thing I remember the song was that J. Russel Robinson was listed as the composer.That was my favourite version.Somewhere on an album I have of Fletcher Henderson.It was on a French RCA album from the 1980s.Rex Stewart was the soloist.I believe that the Henderson version was from 1934.

              spacelights <spacelights@...> wrote:
              "Singin' The Blues" is indeed an important record (though I much
              prefer "I'm Coming Virginia" and "In A Mist"). An article in a major
              newspaper like the Wall Street Journal will introduce it to people
              previously unaware (and apparently stir things up among jazz
              enthusiasts). Nolan wisely uses quotation marks for "the first jazz
              ballad"; I'd refer to "Someday Sweetheart", recorded by a Morton band
              in 1923, also in particular Jelly's haunting solo on the Red Hot
              Peppers version of 1926.






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            • Dan Van Landingham
              Someday Sweetheart was another recording that I neverespecially liked but I had a lovely version of it from late 1931 by Joe Venuti-Eddie Lang s All Star
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 4, 2007
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                "Someday Sweetheart" was another recording that I neverespecially liked but I had a lovely version of it from late 1931 by Joe Venuti-Eddie Lang's All Star Orchestra.Goodman played an impassioned solo on it bringing to mind his Columbia recording of "Moonglow" .I believe that was the date that also featured Billie Holiday with Jack Teagarden and a now forgotten tenor saxophonist named Art Karle who now ranks up there with George Snurpus and Ralph Rudder.

                spacelights <spacelights@...> wrote:
                I love "Singin' The Blues" (indeed a very important record). An
                article in a major newspaper like the Wall Street Journal will
                introduce it to people previously unaware (and apparently stir things
                up among jazz enthusiasts). Nolan wisely uses quotation marks for
                "the first jazz ballad"; I'd refer to "Someday Sweetheart", recorded
                by a Morton band in 1923, also in particular Jelly's haunting solo on
                the Red Hot Peppers version of 1926.






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              • drdee51@optonline.net
                Singing The Blues was part of the Original Dixieland Jazz Band s recording of Margie from ca. 1920. Fletcher made a tribute version in about 1931. Bix was
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 4, 2007
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                  Singing The Blues was part of the Original Dixieland Jazz Band's recording of Margie from ca. 1920. Fletcher made a tribute version in about 1931. Bix was still alive to hear this tribute to him. Rex Stewart was a great fan of Bix all his life. It is true that Lester carried a copy of Sining the Blues around with him on the road. He had one of those old portable record players that would hold a few 78s in the case very safely.

                  That article from the Wall Street Journal impressed me as astonishing. That article read like reprint from something written in the 1930s. It contained all the old time cliches, Crow Jim attitudes, and even could not say that Bix had Alcoholism which is a disease. The writer had to say compulsive drinker. That is as nutty as when Orrin Keepnews (sic) referred to stories of Bix's drinking behavior as "Romance". The writer has perhaps forgotten that this is 2007, not 1937. Although the music was better in 1937 than now, in fact then they had music in the popular culture.
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Dan Van Landingham
                  Date: Monday, June 4, 2007 6:17 pm
                  Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: "Singin' the Blues" - 80 years later
                  To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com

                  > "I'm Coming Virginia" is a number that never did much for me;The
                  > only version that comes to mind was a late '30s Bluebird by
                  > Artie Shaw.I agree that "Singing the Blues" by Bix was the best
                  > version I have heard.Some years back I had a 78 from the '20s of
                  > "Margie",don't ask me
                  > who recorded it save the fact that below the title of the
                  > record were the words "introducing S-
                  > ing the Blues".I had a Vocalion 78 of Bobby Hackett,leading a
                  > group of musicians from the
                  > Horace Heidt bandmembers.What was neat about the record was
                  > that Bix's solo from the 1927 version on OKeh.The only other
                  > thing I remember the song was that J. Russel Robinson was listed
                  > as the composer.That was my favourite version.Somewhere on an
                  > album I have of Fletcher Henderson.It was on a French RCA album
                  > from the 1980s.Rex Stewart was the soloist.I believe that the
                  > Henderson version was from 1934.
                  >
                  > spacelights wrote:
                  > "Singin' The Blues" is indeed an important record
                  > (though I much
                  > prefer "I'm Coming Virginia" and "In A Mist"). An article in a major
                  > newspaper like the Wall Street Journal will introduce it to people
                  > previously unaware (and apparently stir things up among jazz
                  > enthusiasts). Nolan wisely uses quotation marks for "the first jazz
                  > ballad"; I'd refer to "Someday Sweetheart", recorded by a Morton band
                  > in 1923, also in particular Jelly's haunting solo on the Red Hot
                  > Peppers version of 1926.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel
                  > today!
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • tommersl
                  ... Since the author seems to be careful and selective in his writing, using double-quote precisely in place and etc, I wonder what the White-Hot Jazz Ballad
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 5, 2007
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                    --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > The weekend edition (June 2-3, 2007) of The Wall Street Journal
                    > carries this very well-written article about the Bix and Tram seminal
                    > recording of "Singin' the Blues." Here is the article in its entirety.
                    >
                    > Albert
                    >
                    > **********************
                    > "MASTERPIECE"
                    >
                    > White-Hot Jazz Ballad
                    > The haunting 'Singin' the Blues' changed American music
                    >
                    > By TOM NOLAN
                    > June 2, 2007; Page P14
                    >

                    Since the author seems to be careful and selective in his writing,
                    using double-quote precisely in place and etc, I wonder what the
                    "White-Hot Jazz Ballad" title means. Is it "'White Hot' Jazz Ballad"
                    or maybe "White:Hot Jazz Ballad". What is the definition of Hot Jazz?
                    Tommersl
                  • Albert Haim
                    From http://physics.fortlewis.edu/Astronomy/astronomy%20today/CHAISSON/AT303/HTML/AT30304.HTM As an object is heated the radiation it emits peaks at higher and
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 5, 2007
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                      From
                      http://physics.fortlewis.edu/Astronomy/astronomy%20today/CHAISSON/AT303/HTML/AT30304.HTM

                      As an object is heated the radiation it emits peaks at higher and
                      higher frequencies. When the metal is at room temperature (300 K— the
                      K scale is C + 273) it emits only invisible infrared radiation. At
                      1000 K, for instance, most of the emitted radiation is still infrared,
                      but now there is also a small amount of visible (dull red) radiation
                      being emitted. As the temperature continues to rise, the peak of the
                      metal's blackbody curve moves through the visible spectrum, from red
                      (4000 K) through yellow. The metal eventually becomes white hot (7000 K).

                      The above gives us the scientific definition of "white-hot." It is
                      also used in common parlance to refer to degrees of heat of jazz. Of
                      course, we have the red hot jazz archive which should be written as
                      red-hot jazz. There are degrees of heat for jazz. When heat is absent,
                      we call the music sweet. When the music swings and is jazzy, we call
                      it hot. Grove on line defines hot jazz as "A term used to describe
                      jazz, particularly early jazz and swing, of an exciting and energetic
                      nature."

                      I think the author is using the term white-hot in two ways.
                      Explicitely as an indication that "Singin' the Blues" is not a sweet
                      piece of music, and as a play on words to refer to the fact that this
                      hot music is played by white musicians.

                      Albert







                      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > The weekend edition (June 2-3, 2007) of The Wall Street Journal
                      > > carries this very well-written article about the Bix and Tram seminal
                      > > recording of "Singin' the Blues." Here is the article in its entirety.
                      > >
                      > > Albert
                      > >
                      > > **********************
                      > > "MASTERPIECE"
                      > >
                      > > White-Hot Jazz Ballad
                      > > The haunting 'Singin' the Blues' changed American music
                      > >
                      > > By TOM NOLAN
                      > > June 2, 2007; Page P14
                      > >
                      >
                      > Since the author seems to be careful and selective in his writing,
                      > using double-quote precisely in place and etc, I wonder what the
                      > "White-Hot Jazz Ballad" title means. Is it "'White Hot' Jazz Ballad"
                      > or maybe "White:Hot Jazz Ballad". What is the definition of Hot Jazz?
                      > Tommersl
                      >
                    • tommersl
                      Many thanks, it seems logical though I think the writer is overestimating the importance of the recording in terms of Hot Jazz . Lester Young wasn t very much
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 11, 2007
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                        Many thanks, it seems logical though I think the writer is
                        overestimating the importance of the recording in terms of "Hot Jazz".
                        Lester Young wasn't very much the hot player and if he was influenced
                        by this recordings it says it's not as "hot" as expected. Lester Young
                        had a sweet side in his playing that was even filmed in a movie.
                        tommersl

                        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > From
                        >
                        http://physics.fortlewis.edu/Astronomy/astronomy%20today/CHAISSON/AT303/HTML/AT30304.HTM
                        >
                        > As an object is heated the radiation it emits peaks at higher and
                        > higher frequencies. When the metal is at room temperature (300 K— the
                        > K scale is C + 273) it emits only invisible infrared radiation. At
                        > 1000 K, for instance, most of the emitted radiation is still infrared,
                        > but now there is also a small amount of visible (dull red) radiation
                        > being emitted. As the temperature continues to rise, the peak of the
                        > metal's blackbody curve moves through the visible spectrum, from red
                        > (4000 K) through yellow. The metal eventually becomes white hot
                        (7000 K).
                        >
                        > The above gives us the scientific definition of "white-hot." It is
                        > also used in common parlance to refer to degrees of heat of jazz. Of
                        > course, we have the red hot jazz archive which should be written as
                        > red-hot jazz. There are degrees of heat for jazz. When heat is absent,
                        > we call the music sweet. When the music swings and is jazzy, we call
                        > it hot. Grove on line defines hot jazz as "A term used to describe
                        > jazz, particularly early jazz and swing, of an exciting and energetic
                        > nature."
                        >
                        > I think the author is using the term white-hot in two ways.
                        > Explicitely as an indication that "Singin' the Blues" is not a sweet
                        > piece of music, and as a play on words to refer to the fact that this
                        > hot music is played by white musicians.
                        >
                        > Albert
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > The weekend edition (June 2-3, 2007) of The Wall Street Journal
                        > > > carries this very well-written article about the Bix and Tram
                        seminal
                        > > > recording of "Singin' the Blues." Here is the article in its
                        entirety.
                        > > >
                        > > > Albert
                        > > >
                        > > > **********************
                        > > > "MASTERPIECE"
                        > > >
                        > > > White-Hot Jazz Ballad
                        > > > The haunting 'Singin' the Blues' changed American music
                        > > >
                        > > > By TOM NOLAN
                        > > > June 2, 2007; Page P14
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > Since the author seems to be careful and selective in his writing,
                        > > using double-quote precisely in place and etc, I wonder what the
                        > > "White-Hot Jazz Ballad" title means. Is it "'White Hot' Jazz Ballad"
                        > > or maybe "White:Hot Jazz Ballad". What is the definition of Hot Jazz?
                        > > Tommersl
                        > >
                        >
                      • tommersl
                        I was thinking about it further. The writer of the article misunderstood IMO the contribution of Singing The Blues to Jazz history. In his attempt he tries
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 11, 2007
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                          I was thinking about it further. The writer of the article
                          misunderstood IMO the contribution of "Singing The Blues" to Jazz
                          history. In his attempt he tries to show that white artists could be
                          hotter than black artists. The story of mutual influence is quite
                          loose in this case since white bands were tending to become sweeter
                          and black were the hotter, it means that actually he sees single-sided
                          influence! I think that by that he does no service to white huge
                          contribution to Jazz music. First, bands like early Paul Whiteman was
                          turning from a sweet WW1 songs marching band into Jazz band. And
                          several artists like Eddie Lang with the Classical background doing
                          harmonic ideas that were removed from what black Jazz artists were
                          doing at the time. White soloist with Classical background that were
                          adding a sweeter sound and expanding the Jazz idiom. By insisting on
                          the hot terminology we can miss the most contributing. It will be hard
                          to convince me that Singing The Blues solos was hotter than solos by
                          Johnny Dodds, Louis Armstrong or Bubber Miley. But I am convinced that
                          Jazz evolution was changed in the 1930's because of mutual influence.
                          Hot bands became sweeter. Sweet bands were playing hotter Jazz. It
                          made a refinement for both sides. The hot bands couldn't swing forever
                          in that powerful fashion, they needed some sweeter inspiration. Sweet
                          bands that were becoming hot were the best at that. What was so
                          groundbreaking in the New Orleans Rhythm Kings, Trambauer's,
                          Whiteman's and all other hot sweet bands unless they were inspired to
                          become hotter? And without the mutual inspiration would Louis
                          Armstrong and the whole 1930's Swing band would become such romantic
                          unless they were inspired? The best is to be precise.
                          Someone who came from a Classic/Romantic music background is carrying
                          it and someone who was from the simple Blues background carry it. Both
                          sides have to get rid of the limitations of their schools. The rest is
                          a matter of taste. I prefer the rough sound of New Orleans and similar
                          bands of the Hot 1920's Jazz, but I also like the Hot Sweet bands.
                          Recently I am digging those bands. It is ridiculous that people think
                          it's mutual exclusive to like Red Nichols and Bix and from the other
                          hand Johnny Dodds and Bubber Miley. I think all mentioned artists were
                          interesting musicians that contributed each in their own way.
                          Tommersl

                          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Many thanks, it seems logical though I think the writer is
                          > overestimating the importance of the recording in terms of "Hot Jazz".
                          > Lester Young wasn't very much the hot player and if he was influenced
                          > by this recordings it says it's not as "hot" as expected. Lester Young
                          > had a sweet side in his playing that was even filmed in a movie.
                          > tommersl
                          >
                          > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > From
                          > >
                          >
                          http://physics.fortlewis.edu/Astronomy/astronomy%20today/CHAISSON/AT303/HTML/AT30304.HTM
                          > >
                          > > As an object is heated the radiation it emits peaks at higher and
                          > > higher frequencies. When the metal is at room temperature (300 K— the
                          > > K scale is C + 273) it emits only invisible infrared radiation. At
                          > > 1000 K, for instance, most of the emitted radiation is still infrared,
                          > > but now there is also a small amount of visible (dull red) radiation
                          > > being emitted. As the temperature continues to rise, the peak of the
                          > > metal's blackbody curve moves through the visible spectrum, from red
                          > > (4000 K) through yellow. The metal eventually becomes white hot
                          > (7000 K).
                          > >
                          > > The above gives us the scientific definition of "white-hot." It is
                          > > also used in common parlance to refer to degrees of heat of jazz. Of
                          > > course, we have the red hot jazz archive which should be written as
                          > > red-hot jazz. There are degrees of heat for jazz. When heat is absent,
                          > > we call the music sweet. When the music swings and is jazzy, we call
                          > > it hot. Grove on line defines hot jazz as "A term used to describe
                          > > jazz, particularly early jazz and swing, of an exciting and energetic
                          > > nature."
                          > >
                          > > I think the author is using the term white-hot in two ways.
                          > > Explicitely as an indication that "Singin' the Blues" is not a sweet
                          > > piece of music, and as a play on words to refer to the fact that this
                          > > hot music is played by white musicians.
                          > >
                          > > Albert
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@>
                          wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > The weekend edition (June 2-3, 2007) of The Wall Street Journal
                          > > > > carries this very well-written article about the Bix and Tram
                          > seminal
                          > > > > recording of "Singin' the Blues." Here is the article in its
                          > entirety.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Albert
                          > > > >
                          > > > > **********************
                          > > > > "MASTERPIECE"
                          > > > >
                          > > > > White-Hot Jazz Ballad
                          > > > > The haunting 'Singin' the Blues' changed American music
                          > > > >
                          > > > > By TOM NOLAN
                          > > > > June 2, 2007; Page P14
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Since the author seems to be careful and selective in his writing,
                          > > > using double-quote precisely in place and etc, I wonder what the
                          > > > "White-Hot Jazz Ballad" title means. Is it "'White Hot' Jazz Ballad"
                          > > > or maybe "White:Hot Jazz Ballad". What is the definition of Hot
                          Jazz?
                          > > > Tommersl
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Albert Haim
                          Tommersel, You write, The writer of the article misunderstood IMO the contribution of Singing The Blues to Jazz history. In his attempt he tries to show
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jun 12, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Tommersel,

                            You write, "The writer of the article misunderstood IMO the
                            contribution of "Singing The Blues" to Jazz history. In his attempt he
                            tries to show that white artists could be hotter than black artists."
                            I am afraid you misundestood what the writer told us. I do not see,
                            implictly or explicitly any place in the article where the writer
                            "tries to show that white artists could be hotter than black artists."

                            The following are the descriptions used by the author.

                            - "Singin' the Blues" had a subtle swing and a lyrical quality.

                            - Trumbauer and Beiderbecke's nearly three-minute platter would be
                            called "the first jazz ballad," and its haunting sound would forever
                            affect the course of America's indigenous music.

                            - "Singin' the Blues" starts off at a midtempo, foot-tapping pace that
                            suggests a very brisk walk along a country lane.

                            - His [Trumbauer's] improvised paraphrases and loping commentary on
                            the melody, played over the impeccably fingered lines of 24-year-old
                            acoustic-guitarist Eddie Lang, seem at once exuberant and thoughtful,
                            rhythmic and ruminative: 32 bars that mix the inevitability of art
                            with the ease of conversation.

                            - The second chorus belongs to Beiderbecke, a young man with a horn
                            playing on and around and in between the beat, in poignant phrases
                            that hit with force but leave a wistful echo.

                            I re-read the article carefully after you posted your comments, and I
                            cannot find any sentence or phrase where the author claims that
                            "white artists could be hotter than black artists." Here are the
                            pertinent quotes about back and white musicans.

                            - By 1927, both Beiderbecke and Trumbauer were already well known to
                            other white players of "hot" jazz. After "Singin' the Blues," they
                            became known to black players as well. "Singin' the Blues," billed on
                            its black-and-gold Okeh label as by "Frankie Trumbauer & His Orchestra
                            with Bix and Lang," rolled into all corners of a segregated America.

                            - Musicians all over the country learned to play those Beiderbecke and
                            Trumbauer solos note for note. Fletcher Henderson, the celebrated
                            African-American orchestra leader, had Caucasian arranger and
                            Beiderbecke disciple Bill Challis score "Singin' the Blues" for his
                            band with Tram's chorus written out for the whole reed section; and
                            when Henderson recorded it, he asked his own cornet star Rex Stewart
                            to emulate Bix's solo.

                            - Modern-era clarinetist Kenny Davern told jazz scholar Dick Sudhalter
                            of having once witnessed two black tenor-men, swing-to-bebop master
                            Don Byas and the veteran Eddie Barefield (yes, the same man on whose
                            door Lester Young once knocked), take out their horns during a chance
                            encounter in the 1960s and spontaneously run through Trumbauer's 1927
                            chorus from "Singin' the Blues." They told an astonished Davern,
                            "Everybody knew that chorus."

                            The author is not asserting that "white artists could be hotter than
                            balck artists." He is simply pointing out the tremendous impact that
                            Bix and Tram's recording of "Singin' the Blues" had in the jazz
                            community, black and white.

                            Albert


                            --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I was thinking about it further. The writer of the article
                            > misunderstood IMO the contribution of "Singing The Blues" to Jazz
                            > history. In his attempt he tries to show that white artists could be
                            > hotter than black artists. The story of mutual influence is quite
                            > loose in this case since white bands were tending to become sweeter
                            > and black were the hotter, it means that actually he sees single-sided
                            > influence! I think that by that he does no service to white huge
                            > contribution to Jazz music. First, bands like early Paul Whiteman was
                            > turning from a sweet WW1 songs marching band into Jazz band. And
                            > several artists like Eddie Lang with the Classical background doing
                            > harmonic ideas that were removed from what black Jazz artists were
                            > doing at the time. White soloist with Classical background that were
                            > adding a sweeter sound and expanding the Jazz idiom. By insisting on
                            > the hot terminology we can miss the most contributing. It will be hard
                            > to convince me that Singing The Blues solos was hotter than solos by
                            > Johnny Dodds, Louis Armstrong or Bubber Miley. But I am convinced that
                            > Jazz evolution was changed in the 1930's because of mutual influence.
                            > Hot bands became sweeter. Sweet bands were playing hotter Jazz. It
                            > made a refinement for both sides. The hot bands couldn't swing forever
                            > in that powerful fashion, they needed some sweeter inspiration. Sweet
                            > bands that were becoming hot were the best at that. What was so
                            > groundbreaking in the New Orleans Rhythm Kings, Trambauer's,
                            > Whiteman's and all other hot sweet bands unless they were inspired to
                            > become hotter? And without the mutual inspiration would Louis
                            > Armstrong and the whole 1930's Swing band would become such romantic
                            > unless they were inspired? The best is to be precise.
                            > Someone who came from a Classic/Romantic music background is carrying
                            > it and someone who was from the simple Blues background carry it. Both
                            > sides have to get rid of the limitations of their schools. The rest is
                            > a matter of taste. I prefer the rough sound of New Orleans and similar
                            > bands of the Hot 1920's Jazz, but I also like the Hot Sweet bands.
                            > Recently I am digging those bands. It is ridiculous that people think
                            > it's mutual exclusive to like Red Nichols and Bix and from the other
                            > hand Johnny Dodds and Bubber Miley. I think all mentioned artists were
                            > interesting musicians that contributed each in their own way.
                            > Tommersl
                            >
                            > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Many thanks, it seems logical though I think the writer is
                            > > overestimating the importance of the recording in terms of "Hot Jazz".
                            > > Lester Young wasn't very much the hot player and if he was influenced
                            > > by this recordings it says it's not as "hot" as expected. Lester Young
                            > > had a sweet side in his playing that was even filmed in a movie.
                            > > tommersl
                            > >
                            > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > From
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                            http://physics.fortlewis.edu/Astronomy/astronomy%20today/CHAISSON/AT303/HTML/AT30304.HTM
                            > > >
                            > > > As an object is heated the radiation it emits peaks at higher and
                            > > > higher frequencies. When the metal is at room temperature (300
                            K— the
                            > > > K scale is C + 273) it emits only invisible infrared radiation. At
                            > > > 1000 K, for instance, most of the emitted radiation is still
                            infrared,
                            > > > but now there is also a small amount of visible (dull red) radiation
                            > > > being emitted. As the temperature continues to rise, the peak of the
                            > > > metal's blackbody curve moves through the visible spectrum, from red
                            > > > (4000 K) through yellow. The metal eventually becomes white hot
                            > > (7000 K).
                            > > >
                            > > > The above gives us the scientific definition of "white-hot." It is
                            > > > also used in common parlance to refer to degrees of heat of jazz. Of
                            > > > course, we have the red hot jazz archive which should be written as
                            > > > red-hot jazz. There are degrees of heat for jazz. When heat is
                            absent,
                            > > > we call the music sweet. When the music swings and is jazzy, we call
                            > > > it hot. Grove on line defines hot jazz as "A term used to describe
                            > > > jazz, particularly early jazz and swing, of an exciting and
                            energetic
                            > > > nature."
                            > > >
                            > > > I think the author is using the term white-hot in two ways.
                            > > > Explicitely as an indication that "Singin' the Blues" is not a sweet
                            > > > piece of music, and as a play on words to refer to the fact that
                            this
                            > > > hot music is played by white musicians.
                            > > >
                            > > > Albert
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@>
                            > wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > The weekend edition (June 2-3, 2007) of The Wall Street Journal
                            > > > > > carries this very well-written article about the Bix and Tram
                            > > seminal
                            > > > > > recording of "Singin' the Blues." Here is the article in its
                            > > entirety.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Albert
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > **********************
                            > > > > > "MASTERPIECE"
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > White-Hot Jazz Ballad
                            > > > > > The haunting 'Singin' the Blues' changed American music
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > By TOM NOLAN
                            > > > > > June 2, 2007; Page P14
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Since the author seems to be careful and selective in his writing,
                            > > > > using double-quote precisely in place and etc, I wonder what the
                            > > > > "White-Hot Jazz Ballad" title means. Is it "'White Hot' Jazz
                            Ballad"
                            > > > > or maybe "White:Hot Jazz Ballad". What is the definition of Hot
                            > Jazz?
                            > > > > Tommersl
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • tommersl
                            Albert, I was referring to the analogy the writer used of white-hot since that the white-hot is the hottest in this analogy. Tommersl ... Jazz . ... influenced
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jun 12, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Albert, I was referring to the analogy the writer used of white-hot
                              since that the white-hot is the hottest in this analogy.
                              Tommersl

                              --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Tommersel,
                              >
                              > You write, "The writer of the article misunderstood IMO the
                              > contribution of "Singing The Blues" to Jazz history. In his attempt he
                              > tries to show that white artists could be hotter than black artists."
                              > I am afraid you misundestood what the writer told us. I do not see,
                              > implictly or explicitly any place in the article where the writer
                              > "tries to show that white artists could be hotter than black artists."
                              >
                              > The following are the descriptions used by the author.
                              >
                              > - "Singin' the Blues" had a subtle swing and a lyrical quality.
                              >
                              > - Trumbauer and Beiderbecke's nearly three-minute platter would be
                              > called "the first jazz ballad," and its haunting sound would forever
                              > affect the course of America's indigenous music.
                              >
                              > - "Singin' the Blues" starts off at a midtempo, foot-tapping pace that
                              > suggests a very brisk walk along a country lane.
                              >
                              > - His [Trumbauer's] improvised paraphrases and loping commentary on
                              > the melody, played over the impeccably fingered lines of 24-year-old
                              > acoustic-guitarist Eddie Lang, seem at once exuberant and thoughtful,
                              > rhythmic and ruminative: 32 bars that mix the inevitability of art
                              > with the ease of conversation.
                              >
                              > - The second chorus belongs to Beiderbecke, a young man with a horn
                              > playing on and around and in between the beat, in poignant phrases
                              > that hit with force but leave a wistful echo.
                              >
                              > I re-read the article carefully after you posted your comments, and I
                              > cannot find any sentence or phrase where the author claims that
                              > "white artists could be hotter than black artists." Here are the
                              > pertinent quotes about back and white musicans.
                              >
                              > - By 1927, both Beiderbecke and Trumbauer were already well known to
                              > other white players of "hot" jazz. After "Singin' the Blues," they
                              > became known to black players as well. "Singin' the Blues," billed on
                              > its black-and-gold Okeh label as by "Frankie Trumbauer & His Orchestra
                              > with Bix and Lang," rolled into all corners of a segregated America.
                              >
                              > - Musicians all over the country learned to play those Beiderbecke and
                              > Trumbauer solos note for note. Fletcher Henderson, the celebrated
                              > African-American orchestra leader, had Caucasian arranger and
                              > Beiderbecke disciple Bill Challis score "Singin' the Blues" for his
                              > band with Tram's chorus written out for the whole reed section; and
                              > when Henderson recorded it, he asked his own cornet star Rex Stewart
                              > to emulate Bix's solo.
                              >
                              > - Modern-era clarinetist Kenny Davern told jazz scholar Dick Sudhalter
                              > of having once witnessed two black tenor-men, swing-to-bebop master
                              > Don Byas and the veteran Eddie Barefield (yes, the same man on whose
                              > door Lester Young once knocked), take out their horns during a chance
                              > encounter in the 1960s and spontaneously run through Trumbauer's 1927
                              > chorus from "Singin' the Blues." They told an astonished Davern,
                              > "Everybody knew that chorus."
                              >
                              > The author is not asserting that "white artists could be hotter than
                              > balck artists." He is simply pointing out the tremendous impact that
                              > Bix and Tram's recording of "Singin' the Blues" had in the jazz
                              > community, black and white.
                              >
                              > Albert
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I was thinking about it further. The writer of the article
                              > > misunderstood IMO the contribution of "Singing The Blues" to Jazz
                              > > history. In his attempt he tries to show that white artists could be
                              > > hotter than black artists. The story of mutual influence is quite
                              > > loose in this case since white bands were tending to become sweeter
                              > > and black were the hotter, it means that actually he sees single-sided
                              > > influence! I think that by that he does no service to white huge
                              > > contribution to Jazz music. First, bands like early Paul Whiteman was
                              > > turning from a sweet WW1 songs marching band into Jazz band. And
                              > > several artists like Eddie Lang with the Classical background doing
                              > > harmonic ideas that were removed from what black Jazz artists were
                              > > doing at the time. White soloist with Classical background that were
                              > > adding a sweeter sound and expanding the Jazz idiom. By insisting on
                              > > the hot terminology we can miss the most contributing. It will be hard
                              > > to convince me that Singing The Blues solos was hotter than solos by
                              > > Johnny Dodds, Louis Armstrong or Bubber Miley. But I am convinced that
                              > > Jazz evolution was changed in the 1930's because of mutual influence.
                              > > Hot bands became sweeter. Sweet bands were playing hotter Jazz. It
                              > > made a refinement for both sides. The hot bands couldn't swing forever
                              > > in that powerful fashion, they needed some sweeter inspiration. Sweet
                              > > bands that were becoming hot were the best at that. What was so
                              > > groundbreaking in the New Orleans Rhythm Kings, Trambauer's,
                              > > Whiteman's and all other hot sweet bands unless they were inspired to
                              > > become hotter? And without the mutual inspiration would Louis
                              > > Armstrong and the whole 1930's Swing band would become such romantic
                              > > unless they were inspired? The best is to be precise.
                              > > Someone who came from a Classic/Romantic music background is carrying
                              > > it and someone who was from the simple Blues background carry it. Both
                              > > sides have to get rid of the limitations of their schools. The rest is
                              > > a matter of taste. I prefer the rough sound of New Orleans and similar
                              > > bands of the Hot 1920's Jazz, but I also like the Hot Sweet bands.
                              > > Recently I am digging those bands. It is ridiculous that people think
                              > > it's mutual exclusive to like Red Nichols and Bix and from the other
                              > > hand Johnny Dodds and Bubber Miley. I think all mentioned artists were
                              > > interesting musicians that contributed each in their own way.
                              > > Tommersl
                              > >
                              > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Many thanks, it seems logical though I think the writer is
                              > > > overestimating the importance of the recording in terms of "Hot
                              Jazz".
                              > > > Lester Young wasn't very much the hot player and if he was
                              influenced
                              > > > by this recordings it says it's not as "hot" as expected. Lester
                              Young
                              > > > had a sweet side in his playing that was even filmed in a movie.
                              > > > tommersl
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@>
                              wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > From
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                              http://physics.fortlewis.edu/Astronomy/astronomy%20today/CHAISSON/AT303/HTML/AT30304.HTM
                              > > > >
                              > > > > As an object is heated the radiation it emits peaks at higher and
                              > > > > higher frequencies. When the metal is at room temperature (300
                              > K— the
                              > > > > K scale is C + 273) it emits only invisible infrared radiation. At
                              > > > > 1000 K, for instance, most of the emitted radiation is still
                              > infrared,
                              > > > > but now there is also a small amount of visible (dull red)
                              radiation
                              > > > > being emitted. As the temperature continues to rise, the peak
                              of the
                              > > > > metal's blackbody curve moves through the visible spectrum,
                              from red
                              > > > > (4000 K) through yellow. The metal eventually becomes white hot
                              > > > (7000 K).
                              > > > >
                              > > > > The above gives us the scientific definition of "white-hot." It is
                              > > > > also used in common parlance to refer to degrees of heat of
                              jazz. Of
                              > > > > course, we have the red hot jazz archive which should be
                              written as
                              > > > > red-hot jazz. There are degrees of heat for jazz. When heat is
                              > absent,
                              > > > > we call the music sweet. When the music swings and is jazzy,
                              we call
                              > > > > it hot. Grove on line defines hot jazz as "A term used to describe
                              > > > > jazz, particularly early jazz and swing, of an exciting and
                              > energetic
                              > > > > nature."
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I think the author is using the term white-hot in two ways.
                              > > > > Explicitely as an indication that "Singin' the Blues" is not a
                              sweet
                              > > > > piece of music, and as a play on words to refer to the fact that
                              > this
                              > > > > hot music is played by white musicians.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Albert
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@> wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > The weekend edition (June 2-3, 2007) of The Wall Street
                              Journal
                              > > > > > > carries this very well-written article about the Bix and Tram
                              > > > seminal
                              > > > > > > recording of "Singin' the Blues." Here is the article in its
                              > > > entirety.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Albert
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > **********************
                              > > > > > > "MASTERPIECE"
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > White-Hot Jazz Ballad
                              > > > > > > The haunting 'Singin' the Blues' changed American music
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > By TOM NOLAN
                              > > > > > > June 2, 2007; Page P14
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Since the author seems to be careful and selective in his
                              writing,
                              > > > > > using double-quote precisely in place and etc, I wonder what the
                              > > > > > "White-Hot Jazz Ballad" title means. Is it "'White Hot' Jazz
                              > Ballad"
                              > > > > > or maybe "White:Hot Jazz Ballad". What is the definition of Hot
                              > > Jazz?
                              > > > > > Tommersl
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • tommersl
                              Jazz early history is IMO this way: people were brassing the Blues music. Some of them with Classics music background like W.C. Handy and some like Buddy
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jun 12, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Jazz early history is IMO this way: people were brassing the Blues
                                music. Some of them with Classics music background like W.C. Handy and
                                some like Buddy Bolden from the Blues point of view. The Buddy Bolden
                                and New-Orleans Creoles and blacks created the the most significance
                                music of the Blues-Brassing wave, that was linked at some point with
                                the buzz-word Jazz. Their music was hot and different from any other
                                Blues-Brassed music. White musicians of Classics music school were
                                like W.C. Handy limited because of their background, although some of
                                them were talented enough to play good Jazz. But the core was
                                Blues-Brassed music of New Orleans that were spreading the music.
                                Later additional bands, like Duke Ellington that didn't have as
                                powerful improvising Swing-Engagement as the New Orleans
                                clarinet-cornet-trombone bands, but they had hot soloist of their own.
                                And Jelly Roll Morton who started the sections idea. The black Hot
                                bands weren't influenced by the white technically, but they played Hot
                                Blues Solo and Swing styles and they were influenced by white written
                                tunes since the beginning of Jazz and maybe even before like marching
                                songs. The sweet tunes of WW1-songs and pre-WW1 served as tunes to
                                improvise on. Then in the 1930's there was a change. The
                                sectioned-Jazz was winning, the Hot Jazz era came to its end. Although
                                the Hot Jazz era was the best and most creative, it is obvious that it
                                couldn't last forever and the reasons are that blacks were tired of
                                Blues and they wanted to play a sweeter music. Soloist wanted to play
                                sweeter music inspired by white technicals instead of the Blues
                                improvisations. Band leaders were inspired by the sections idea which
                                gave room for sweet soloists. The black bands of the 1930's were
                                inspired by their contemporary white bands. On the other hand, white
                                bands were getting hotter. Paul Whiteman was using hotter players than
                                his early, they reduced the natural sweetness of his musical ideas.
                                Other white bandleaders were also looking for hotter inspiration, and
                                at some point it was natural for mixed bands to be assembled. Singing
                                The Blues was what black bands of the 1930's wanted, sweeter tone that
                                is not necessarily swinging in the solo, but a separated swing section
                                (and here is the sections idea again) that makes the music groove.
                                White bands were inspired by the rhythm section of the 1930's black
                                bands. Together they created a music that is lesser in terms of
                                creativity IMO than the 1920's Hot bands but still fine music. So the
                                conclusion is that white artists were directly influencing the 1930's,
                                but they had little if any impact on the Hot solos of the 1920's, they
                                had no impact on the New Orleans Swing-Engagement, and generally the
                                Jazz music wasn't inspired by those with classical music background ,
                                be it whites or W.C. Handy, the only thing was the tunes that were
                                inspired sometimes by white songwriters but the basis Blues and the
                                technical development of players were removed from any alien to the
                                Blues ideas.
                                White Hot-Sweet bands like Tram's, N.O. Rhythm Kings, ODJB were
                                playing their Hot-Sweet music, which was almost as high quality as Hot
                                Bands, but their influence on blacks came mostly in the 1930's and beyond.
                                Tommersl

                                --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Albert, I was referring to the analogy the writer used of white-hot
                                > since that the white-hot is the hottest in this analogy.
                                > Tommersl
                                >
                              • Dan Van Landingham
                                You ve given me something to think about as I have overlooked some of the 1920s white bands.At one time I had quite a collection of 1920s big bands on several
                                Message 15 of 15 , Jun 13, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  You've given me something to think about as I have overlooked some of the 1920s white bands.At one time I had quite a collection of 1920s big bands on several long since defunct labels.This is where your website comes in handy.I'm usually there listening to the different
                                  bands many of which I've never heard of.Question:can anyone give me more input on Charles Pierce,the Chicago butcher who cut a great version of "China Boy"?

                                  tommersl <tommersl@...> wrote:
                                  Jazz early history is IMO this way: people were brassing the Blues
                                  music. Some of them with Classics music background like W.C. Handy and
                                  some like Buddy Bolden from the Blues point of view. The Buddy Bolden
                                  and New-Orleans Creoles and blacks created the the most significance
                                  music of the Blues-Brassing wave, that was linked at some point with
                                  the buzz-word Jazz. Their music was hot and different from any other
                                  Blues-Brassed music. White musicians of Classics music school were
                                  like W.C. Handy limited because of their background, although some of
                                  them were talented enough to play good Jazz. But the core was
                                  Blues-Brassed music of New Orleans that were spreading the music.
                                  Later additional bands, like Duke Ellington that didn't have as
                                  powerful improvising Swing-Engagement as the New Orleans
                                  clarinet-cornet-trombone bands, but they had hot soloist of their own.
                                  And Jelly Roll Morton who started the sections idea. The black Hot
                                  bands weren't influenced by the white technically, but they played Hot
                                  Blues Solo and Swing styles and they were influenced by white written
                                  tunes since the beginning of Jazz and maybe even before like marching
                                  songs. The sweet tunes of WW1-songs and pre-WW1 served as tunes to
                                  improvise on. Then in the 1930's there was a change. The
                                  sectioned-Jazz was winning, the Hot Jazz era came to its end. Although
                                  the Hot Jazz era was the best and most creative, it is obvious that it
                                  couldn't last forever and the reasons are that blacks were tired of
                                  Blues and they wanted to play a sweeter music. Soloist wanted to play
                                  sweeter music inspired by white technicals instead of the Blues
                                  improvisations. Band leaders were inspired by the sections idea which
                                  gave room for sweet soloists. The black bands of the 1930's were
                                  inspired by their contemporary white bands. On the other hand, white
                                  bands were getting hotter. Paul Whiteman was using hotter players than
                                  his early, they reduced the natural sweetness of his musical ideas.
                                  Other white bandleaders were also looking for hotter inspiration, and
                                  at some point it was natural for mixed bands to be assembled. Singing
                                  The Blues was what black bands of the 1930's wanted, sweeter tone that
                                  is not necessarily swinging in the solo, but a separated swing section
                                  (and here is the sections idea again) that makes the music groove.
                                  White bands were inspired by the rhythm section of the 1930's black
                                  bands. Together they created a music that is lesser in terms of
                                  creativity IMO than the 1920's Hot bands but still fine music. So the
                                  conclusion is that white artists were directly influencing the 1930's,
                                  but they had little if any impact on the Hot solos of the 1920's, they
                                  had no impact on the New Orleans Swing-Engagement, and generally the
                                  Jazz music wasn't inspired by those with classical music background ,
                                  be it whites or W.C. Handy, the only thing was the tunes that were
                                  inspired sometimes by white songwriters but the basis Blues and the
                                  technical development of players were removed from any alien to the
                                  Blues ideas.
                                  White Hot-Sweet bands like Tram's, N.O. Rhythm Kings, ODJB were
                                  playing their Hot-Sweet music, which was almost as high quality as Hot
                                  Bands, but their influence on blacks came mostly in the 1930's and beyond.
                                  Tommersl

                                  --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Albert, I was referring to the analogy the writer used of white-hot
                                  > since that the white-hot is the hottest in this analogy.
                                  > Tommersl
                                  >






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