Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Texas Alexander

Expand Messages
  • tommersl
    Texas Alexander recordings with Eddie Lang and Clarence Williams. Is it the source for thinking that Oliver recorded on the Blind Willie Dunn? And did Oliver
    Message 1 of 21 , May 27, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Texas Alexander recordings with Eddie Lang and Clarence Williams. Is
      it the source for thinking that Oliver recorded on the Blind Willie
      Dunn? And did Oliver really recorded with Alexander?
      Tommersl
    • soundofcd
      Oliver certainly did record with Alexander. Tell Me Woman Blues and Frisco Train Blues on 20.11.28, along with King Oliver, cnt/Clarence Williams, pno/Eddie
      Message 2 of 21 , May 27, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Oliver certainly did record with Alexander. Tell Me Woman Blues and
        Frisco Train Blues on 20.11.28, along with King Oliver, cnt/Clarence
        Williams, pno/Eddie Lang, gtr.

        Also, according to my database, King Oliver recorded Jet Black Blues
        Blue Blood Blues as part of Blind Willie Dunn's Gin Bottle Four:
        Oliver, cnt/J C Johnson, pno/Eddie Lang, Lonnie Johnson, gtr/Hoagy
        Carmichael, perc, vcl. 30.04.29.

        The Dunn sides are on Lonnie Johnson Vol 4 1928 - 1929. Document DOCD-
        5066. I only have the Alexander sides on LP unfortunately, but they
        will be on Document's Complete Texas Alexander set. For a search go
        to http://www.document-records.com/search.asp .

        Cheers,

        Fred McCormick.






        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@...> wrote:
        >
        > Texas Alexander recordings with Eddie Lang and Clarence Williams. Is
        > it the source for thinking that Oliver recorded on the Blind Willie
        > Dunn? And did Oliver really recorded with Alexander?
        > Tommersl
        >
      • Howard Rye
        ... I think the question being asked is not whether it is commonly believed that Oliver is on this coupling, which everybody involved already knows, but
        Message 3 of 21 , May 27, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com <mailto:RedHotJazz%40yahoogroups.com> ,
          "tommersl" <tommersl@...> wrote:
          >
          > Texas Alexander recordings with Eddie Lang and Clarence Williams. Is
          > it the source for thinking that Oliver recorded on the Blind Willie
          > Dunn? And did Oliver really recorded with Alexander?
          > Tommersl

          on 27/5/07 15:25, soundofcd at Fredamhran@... wrote:

          >Oliver certainly did record with Alexander. Tell Me Woman Blues and
          >Frisco Train Blues on 20.11.28, along with King Oliver, cnt/Clarence
          >Williams, pno/Eddie Lang, gtr.

          I think the question being asked is not whether it is commonly believed that
          Oliver is on this coupling, which everybody involved already knows, but
          whether there is any evidence for it.

          I am sure it will amuse those who have been following this debate, to the
          point of hilarity, to know that Oliver was first proposed for this session
          by Ralph Venables (in a study of Eddie Lang in 'Jazz', Vol. 1, No.10). Allen
          & Rust in the 1950s presumed that he had obtained this information from the
          OKeh files. Unless my notes from the OKeh file cards are playing me false,
          he did not.

          Allen and Rust add "Cornet is the same man as on Williams' OKeh 8645 and
          Dunn's OKeh 8689". Er, well, yes! On the other hand no one one has ever
          questioned Oliver here, but that could be because it is believed he is named
          in the files.

          So, yes, it is correctly deduced that there is a relationship between naming
          Oliver here and naming him on the Dunn coupling, and it is probably safe to
          assume that only aural identification is involved.

          To make the whole thing even dodgier, perhaps I should report that Williams
          himself named Oliver for OKeh 8645. Everybody agrees, but Venables reported
          in this case also that Oliver's name came from the files, and it definitely
          did not. Already by 1955 Helene Chmura had reported that there are no names
          in the OKeh files.

          I can think of no way that Venables could have seen the files at the
          material date. He must merely have been reporting what an American informant
          had told him. A Columbia employee wrote various personnel speculations on to
          file cards at Bridgeport when programming reissues. Fortunately his
          hand-writing is recognizable. It would not have been recognized by the
          junior clerk was was instructed in the name of goodwill to copy data out for
          this pesky limey who keeps pestering us about Eddie Lang. There is no need
          to assume dishonesty on Ralph's part.


          Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
          howard@...
          Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
        • David Brown
          Venables seems to emerge as the dubious source for much supposed Oliver. Did he also have input into non-Oliver discography generally ? I think the first
          Message 4 of 21 , May 28, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Venables seems to emerge as the dubious source for much supposed Oliver.
            Did he also have input into non-Oliver discography generally ? I think the
            first editions of 'Jazz Directory' also carry his name.

            I have never doubted Oliver on the Alexander but I shall revisit after many
            years and I note that my 1st Ed. Rust/Allen does not claim that Clarence
            confirmed here, unlike Okeh 8645. What does the latest Laurie Wright edition
            have ?

            I also see that the personnel for Okeh 8620 --Hazel Smith -- is reported as
            solely from ' Columbia files ( via George Avakian) '. Is this so Howard ?

            Dave







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Howard Rye
            ... That was what I reported. Sorry it wasn t clear. ... I dunno about solely but Oliver s name is on the file cards. So is Williams s. What is much odder is
            Message 5 of 21 , May 28, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              on 28/5/07 8:06, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

              >I have never doubted Oliver on the Alexander but I shall revisit after many
              >years and I note that my 1st Ed. Rust/Allen does not claim that Clarence
              >confirmed here, unlike Okeh 8645. What does the latest Laurie Wright edition
              >have ?

              That was what I reported. Sorry it wasn't clear.


              >I also see that the personnel for Okeh 8620 --Hazel Smith -- is reported as
              >solely from ' Columbia files ( via George Avakian) '. Is this so Howard ?

              I dunno about solely but Oliver's name is on the file cards. So is
              Williams's. What is much odder is that George did not also mention that the
              file card makes clear that this singer is really Irene Mims, who also
              recorded for Vocalion. I mention this because there seem to be something of
              a shortage of up-to-date reference books amongst members of this group.

              We can take this one as a definite marker of Oliver's style at this time. He
              is also named for Elizabeth Johnson's OKeh 8593 and Lizzie Miles's Columbia
              14335-D.



              Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
              howard@...
              Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
            • David Brown
              Howard Many thanks. You previously reported the scarcity of detail on Okeh cards. What would have occasioned Oliver s name on this and who would have written
              Message 6 of 21 , May 28, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Howard

                Many thanks. You previously reported the scarcity of detail on Okeh cards.
                What would have occasioned Oliver's name on this and who would have written
                it and when ? Contemporary with the session ? Who produced these and would
                that be the same as for the Willies ? Why would Mims perform pseudonymously
                ?

                Many questions but then I do bow to the comprehensive and neoteric state of
                your library.

                Just listened to the Alexander and indeed this is superb Oliver. Can anybody
                report where this is now available in quality CD ?

                Dave











                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Howard Rye
                ... ? I don t think anyone knows authoritative answers to any of these questions but from the patterns it is easy to guess that accompanists were noted on the
                Message 7 of 21 , May 28, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  on 28/5/07 16:05, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:


                  >Many thanks. You previously reported the scarcity of detail on Okeh cards.
                  >What would have occasioned Oliver's name on this and who would have written
                  >it and when ? Contemporary with the session ? Who produced these and would
                  >that be the same as for the Willies ? Why would Mims perform pseudonymously
                  ?

                  I don't think anyone knows authoritative answers to any of these questions
                  but from the patterns it is easy to guess that accompanists were noted on
                  the file cards when someone thought they might need to be named on the
                  labels. Sometimes of course the eventual decision was not to, but if they
                  didn't note it they'd pre-empted the decision. Band personnels were almost
                  never required and so very rarely noted.

                  Clarence Williams was the A&R man for most of OKeh's New York Race sessions,
                  but we know he wasn't responsible for the Willie's. I know I have reported
                  this before but I will reiterate that the file cards showed the band name as
                  "Novelty Four", and were later altered to show the name actually used. It is
                  logical to conclude from this was rather an ad hoc "let's see what we get
                  and then decide what to do with it" affair.

                  Of course payment information for pick-up groups especially may have existed
                  in separate filing and may still exist but I wouldn't be at all surprised if
                  some companies would still regard it as commercially confidential. Meaning
                  that they couldn't be bothered to look for it.

                  Laurie Wright's guess about the pseudonym is that they knew or were worried
                  that Vocalion had some kind of contract for their earlier issue.

                  No one asked these questions while anyone was alive who knew the answers, so
                  we will never know for sure. We can only guess, unless of course some
                  documentation sometime turns up somewhere.


                  >Just listened to the Alexander and indeed this is superb Oliver. Can anybody
                  >report where this is now available in quality CD ?

                  It's on The Clarence Williams Collection Vol. 2 1928, Collector's Classics
                  COCD28, in a magnificent John R.T. Davies dub. Whether this CD is available
                  in any meaningful sense I have no idea.

                  Talking of not asking people while they were alive, Ralph Venables died only
                  in February 2003! He was 88. By then I suspect that no one in the jazz world
                  was in touch with him, not even any surviving contemporaries. This wasn't
                  particularly difficult to discover. It's easy to find people when they're
                  dead. It's finding them while they're alive that's a problem.



                  Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                  howard@...
                  Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                • Albert Haim
                  Ralph V. G. Venables was a record collector who wrote several articles in jazz magazines from the 1940s or 50s on. [He also wrote about motorcycles. See
                  Message 8 of 21 , May 28, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Ralph V. G. Venables was a record collector who wrote several articles
                    in jazz magazines from the 1940s or 50s on. [He also wrote about
                    motorcycles. See http://www.swallowcliffe.com/locals-venables.htm%5d. I
                    believe that his favorite musicians were Red Nichols and Bix
                    Beiderbecke. He wrote a lot about Bix. Ralph wrote to Frank Trumbauer
                    asking discographical questions. Here is a link to page 1 of
                    an article

                    http://www.bixbeiderbecke.com/rhythmjuly1939p1.html

                    in which Ralph reported some of his findings. One of the most
                    important ones, as far as I am concerned, is the fact that the
                    trombonist in "Singin' the Blues" is Miff Mole and not Bill Rank as
                    usually assumed.

                    Bill Dean-Myatt once wrote to me and mentioned Ralph's efforts in
                    discographical research. Here is what Bill wrote,

                    "July 1949 was exciting, Volume 1 of "Jazz Directory", which covered
                    Cecil Aagard to Walter Byrd appeared and for the first time there
                    seemed some prospect of knowing something about the records I was
                    buying. Although it was immeasurably better than anything that had
                    gone before if was woefully inadequate by today's standards. It did,
                    however, cover the full period from jazz's beginnings up until 1949
                    and covered the whole world, rather than just USA and Britain. Dave
                    Carey, Albert McCarthy and Ralph Venables managed to reach as far as
                    Fred Longshaw by the time the last, and most accurate, volume came out
                    in 1957, but there seemed little chance that information on Bob Zurke
                    would ever get into print."

                    When Ralph died, his collection (over 10,000 records, mostly white
                    jazz including all of Bix's Claxtonolas) went to J. R. T. Davies.

                    Albert

                    --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Venables seems to emerge as the dubious source for much supposed Oliver.
                    > Did he also have input into non-Oliver discography generally ? I
                    think the
                    > first editions of 'Jazz Directory' also carry his name.
                    >
                    > I have never doubted Oliver on the Alexander but I shall revisit
                    after many
                    > years and I note that my 1st Ed. Rust/Allen does not claim that Clarence
                    > confirmed here, unlike Okeh 8645. What does the latest Laurie Wright
                    edition
                    > have ?
                    >
                    > I also see that the personnel for Okeh 8620 --Hazel Smith -- is
                    reported as
                    > solely from ' Columbia files ( via George Avakian) '. Is this so
                    Howard ?
                    >
                    > Dave
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Dan Van Landingham
                    When did Bix record for Claxtona?I have never heard as I am familiar with what he recorded between 1924 and 1930 on Victor,Columbia,OKeh as well as a
                    Message 9 of 21 , May 28, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      When did Bix record for Claxtona?I have never heard as I am familiar with what he recorded between 1924 and 1930 on Victor,Columbia,OKeh as well as a mysterious date allegedly with Sam Lanin.In "Bix Man and Legend",there was some speculation by Sudhalter that Bix recorded for him because of a check Lanin made out to Bix circa 1925.Bix did work with some of the men in Lanin's band:trumpeter Herman "Hymie" Farberman is the one I can handily recall at this moment.I had an LP some twenty five years ago that had a track by
                      "The Stellar Dance Orchestra" that was issued on a label called "Broadway".The speculation was that Bix and Tram recorded with the band between the time that Goldkette broke up his band and the time both Bix and Tram joined Paul Whiteman.I know that between Goldkette and Whiteman,Bix and Tram worked in the "New Yorkers" band led by Adrian Rollini and featuring Rank,Lang,Bix,Tram and a couple of now forgotten men:alto saxist Bobby Davis,banjoist Tony Colucci and trumpeter Sylvester Ahola.Also,what of that record date Red Nichols did for Victor with Tram?Tram did a date for Victor with Nichols then proceed to do a date under his own name.Nichols was supposed to have played but when Tom Rockwell,recording chief for OKeh at the time,refused to let Nichols play.Rockwell would do it but Bix had to play.Tram and Red found him God knows where but Bix was wiped out.Bix was brought to the studio to show Rockwell as to Bix's condition but it didn't matter.There was speculation by
                      Sudhalter that a good Bix imitator named Bo Ashford did the date but was unable to get any evidence to that effect.That bit of info was in "Bix Man &
                      Legend".In closing,you mentioned Bob Zurke;what of him? I remember reading that while growing up in Detroit in the '20s,he transcribed arrangements of McKinney's Cotton Pickers
                      from what I remember.I could be wrong on that.

                      Albert Haim <alberthaim@...> wrote:
                      Ralph V. G. Venables was a record collector who wrote several articles
                      in jazz magazines from the 1940s or 50s on. [He also wrote about
                      motorcycles. See http://www.swallowcliffe.com/locals-venables.htm%5d. I
                      believe that his favorite musicians were Red Nichols and Bix
                      Beiderbecke. He wrote a lot about Bix. Ralph wrote to Frank Trumbauer
                      asking discographical questions. Here is a link to page 1 of
                      an article

                      http://www.bixbeiderbecke.com/rhythmjuly1939p1.html

                      in which Ralph reported some of his findings. One of the most
                      important ones, as far as I am concerned, is the fact that the
                      trombonist in "Singin' the Blues" is Miff Mole and not Bill Rank as
                      usually assumed.

                      Bill Dean-Myatt once wrote to me and mentioned Ralph's efforts in
                      discographical research. Here is what Bill wrote,

                      "July 1949 was exciting, Volume 1 of "Jazz Directory", which covered
                      Cecil Aagard to Walter Byrd appeared and for the first time there
                      seemed some prospect of knowing something about the records I was
                      buying. Although it was immeasurably better than anything that had
                      gone before if was woefully inadequate by today's standards. It did,
                      however, cover the full period from jazz's beginnings up until 1949
                      and covered the whole world, rather than just USA and Britain. Dave
                      Carey, Albert McCarthy and Ralph Venables managed to reach as far as
                      Fred Longshaw by the time the last, and most accurate, volume came out
                      in 1957, but there seemed little chance that information on Bob Zurke
                      would ever get into print."

                      When Ralph died, his collection (over 10,000 records, mostly white
                      jazz including all of Bix's Claxtonolas) went to J. R. T. Davies.

                      Albert

                      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Venables seems to emerge as the dubious source for much supposed Oliver.
                      > Did he also have input into non-Oliver discography generally ? I
                      think the
                      > first editions of 'Jazz Directory' also carry his name.
                      >
                      > I have never doubted Oliver on the Alexander but I shall revisit
                      after many
                      > years and I note that my 1st Ed. Rust/Allen does not claim that Clarence
                      > confirmed here, unlike Okeh 8645. What does the latest Laurie Wright
                      edition
                      > have ?
                      >
                      > I also see that the personnel for Okeh 8620 --Hazel Smith -- is
                      reported as
                      > solely from ' Columbia files ( via George Avakian) '. Is this so
                      Howard ?
                      >
                      > Dave
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >






                      ---------------------------------
                      Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Michael Rader
                      The Laurie Wright King Oliver bio-discography does not doubt Oliver on the Texas Alexanders, but does quote Venables as the source. In contrast, it mentions
                      Message 10 of 21 , May 28, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        The Laurie Wright King Oliver bio-discography does not doubt Oliver on the Texas Alexanders, but does quote Venables as the source. In contrast, it mentions that Tommy Dorsey has also been suggested as the cornet or trumpet on the Clarence Williams Novelty Four session which is next in sequence, although Laurie comes down firmly in favour of Oliver.

                        The horn player on these sides is more prominent than on the Blind Willie Dunn sides and given more opportunity to show his mettle. To my ears, this is Oliver, but better men than myself have been mistaken in identifying him on records.

                        Michael Rader
                        _______________________________________________________________
                        SMS schreiben mit WEB.DE FreeMail - einfach, schnell und
                        kostenguenstig. Jetzt gleich testen! http://f.web.de/?mc=021192
                      • David Brown
                        Many thanks to Howard & Albert for long and fascinating posts and to Michael for raising the Clarence Novelty 4. The playing here is indeed fine Oliver and,
                        Message 11 of 21 , May 29, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Many thanks to Howard & Albert for long and fascinating posts and to Michael
                          for raising the Clarence Novelty 4. The playing here is indeed fine Oliver
                          and, although the phrasing at the start of 'In The Bottle' is a shade
                          stiffer than usual, his work on ' What Ya Want --' is profound. Has the
                          violin here now been definitely allocated? What do we make of Clarence's
                          reported claim ( Rust/Allen-1) 'that it was neither Lonnie Johnson nor Eddie
                          South but that the man in question had, however, like South been in Europe
                          and had his own band there' ?

                          Rust/Allen -1 also -- re ' Novelty 4' has Venables (again) as reporting
                          that Oliver's name is 'in Okeh files' but that 'Helene Chmura recently
                          said no'.

                          What Howard reports about the original card label for the Willies as
                          'Novelty 4' does reiterate the probability that this was a deliberate
                          emulation of the Clarence. One asks therefore why Clarence was not brought
                          in himself to follow up his ' Novelty 4' success. Do we know how many this
                          sold?

                          Was Clarence solely in charge of recordings or would there have also been 'A
                          Man' -- a white executive ? Was Tommy Rockwell involved?

                          Dave






                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Howard Rye
                          ... Both Laurie Wright and Ray Mitchell, in his 2002 Eddie Lang Discography, conclude that the fiddling here is by Lang, mainly I think because it is never
                          Message 12 of 21 , May 29, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            on 29/5/07 8:27, David Brown at johnhaleysims@... wrote:

                            >Many thanks to Howard & Albert for long and fascinating posts and to Michael
                            >for raising the Clarence Novelty 4. The playing here is indeed fine Oliver
                            >and, although the phrasing at the start of 'In The Bottle' is a shade
                            >stiffer than usual, his work on ' What Ya Want --' is profound. Has the
                            >violin here now been definitely allocated? What do we make of Clarence's
                            >reported claim ( Rust/Allen-1) 'that it was neither Lonnie Johnson nor Eddie
                            >South but that the man in question had, however, like South been in Europe
                            >and had his own band there' ?

                            Both Laurie Wright and Ray Mitchell, in his 2002 Eddie Lang Discography,
                            conclude that the fiddling here is by Lang, mainly I think because it is
                            never heard simultaneously with the guitar. But this is suggestive.

                            I think what we conclude from what Clarence said is that he didn't remember
                            who the violinist was. The obvious candidate for the profile, Leon Abbey,
                            can be ruled out because he was actually in Europe at the time of the
                            session.

                            When Clarence actually identified Oliver on his own records when they were
                            played to him (as distinct from remembering him), I think we would be very
                            unwise to question his judgement. He did not as far as I know identify
                            Oliver on any record of his own where collectors are certain it is someone
                            else. Wherever the files provide information they check out.

                            As far as I know no sales figures exist for these OKehs, but this only means
                            that they are not in any part of the filing I've seen. None are reported by
                            Laurie Wright in his OKeh 8000 series study.




                            Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                            howard@...
                            Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                          • Albert Haim
                            Dan, Six of the Gennett recordings by the Wolverines were also issued on Claxtonola: Oh Baby - Gnt 5453 Cx 40336 Copenhagen - Gnt 5453 Cx 40336 Riverboat
                            Message 13 of 21 , May 29, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Dan,

                              Six of the Gennett recordings by the Wolverines were also issued on
                              Claxtonola:

                              Oh Baby - Gnt 5453 Cx 40336
                              Copenhagen - Gnt 5453 Cx 40336
                              Riverboat Shuffle - Gnt 5454 Cx 40339
                              Susie of the Islands - Gnt 5454 Cx 40339
                              Sensation - Gnt 5542 Cx 40375
                              Lazy Daddy - Gnt 5542 Cx 40375

                              Tony Colucci was not a member of the New Yorkers, nor did he record
                              with Bix and Tram during their period between Goldkette and Whiteman,
                              nor at any other time. Eddie Lang was the guitarist (and perhaps
                              banjoist) with the New Yorkers and in the Bix and Tram recordings of
                              that period.

                              The recording of "Sugar" by Frank Trumbauer and His Orchestra was done
                              in the afternoon of Oct 26, 1927. Presumably Bix was present, but in
                              no condition to play. In the morning the same tune was recorded by Red
                              Nichols and Trumbauer without Bix. The identity of the trumpet/cornet
                              solo in Tram's version of Sugar is highly controversial. Bill Rank,
                              Chauncey Morehouse, Boe Ashford and Red Nichols identified the soloist
                              as Bix. Bix experts, Richard Sudhalter and Randy Sandke (and as far as
                              I remember J.R.T. Davies) do not believe the soloist is Bix. Neither do I.

                              All I know about Bob Zurke is that his band is the penultimate entry
                              in Rust's Jazz Records Discography and that some of his trumpet men
                              -Sterling (or Stirling) Bose and Chelsea Quealey- were highly
                              influenced by Bix in the 1920s. Bose was a roommate of Bix's in St.
                              Louis in 1925 or 1926.

                              Albert


                              --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Dan Van Landingham
                              <danvanlandingham@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > When did Bix record for Claxtona?I have never heard as I am familiar
                              with what he recorded between 1924 and 1930 on Victor,Columbia,OKeh as
                              well as a mysterious date allegedly with Sam Lanin.In "Bix Man and
                              Legend",there was some speculation by Sudhalter that Bix recorded for
                              him because of a check Lanin made out to Bix circa 1925.Bix did work
                              with some of the men in Lanin's band:trumpeter Herman "Hymie"
                              Farberman is the one I can handily recall at this moment.I had an LP
                              some twenty five years ago that had a track by
                              > "The Stellar Dance Orchestra" that was issued on a label called
                              "Broadway".The speculation was that Bix and Tram recorded with the
                              band between the time that Goldkette broke up his band and the time
                              both Bix and Tram joined Paul Whiteman.I know that between Goldkette
                              and Whiteman,Bix and Tram worked in the "New Yorkers" band led by
                              Adrian Rollini and featuring Rank,Lang,Bix,Tram and a couple of now
                              forgotten men:alto saxist Bobby Davis,banjoist Tony Colucci and
                              trumpeter Sylvester Ahola.Also,what of that record date Red Nichols
                              did for Victor with Tram?Tram did a date for Victor with Nichols then
                              proceed to do a date under his own name.Nichols was supposed to have
                              played but when Tom Rockwell,recording chief for OKeh at the
                              time,refused to let Nichols play.Rockwell would do it but Bix had to
                              play.Tram and Red found him God knows where but Bix was wiped out.Bix
                              was brought to the studio to show Rockwell as to Bix's condition but
                              it didn't matter.There was speculation by
                              > Sudhalter that a good Bix imitator named Bo Ashford did the date
                              but was unable to get any evidence to that effect.That bit of info was
                              in "Bix Man &
                              > Legend".In closing,you mentioned Bob Zurke;what of him? I remember
                              reading that while growing up in Detroit in the '20s,he transcribed
                              arrangements of McKinney's Cotton Pickers
                              > from what I remember.I could be wrong on that.
                              >
                              > Albert Haim <alberthaim@...> wrote:
                              > Ralph V. G. Venables was a record collector who wrote
                              several articles
                              > in jazz magazines from the 1940s or 50s on. [He also wrote about
                              > motorcycles. See http://www.swallowcliffe.com/locals-venables.htm%5d. I
                              > believe that his favorite musicians were Red Nichols and Bix
                              > Beiderbecke. He wrote a lot about Bix. Ralph wrote to Frank Trumbauer
                              > asking discographical questions. Here is a link to page 1 of
                              > an article
                              >
                              > http://www.bixbeiderbecke.com/rhythmjuly1939p1.html
                              >
                              > in which Ralph reported some of his findings. One of the most
                              > important ones, as far as I am concerned, is the fact that the
                              > trombonist in "Singin' the Blues" is Miff Mole and not Bill Rank as
                              > usually assumed.
                              >
                              > Bill Dean-Myatt once wrote to me and mentioned Ralph's efforts in
                              > discographical research. Here is what Bill wrote,
                              >
                              > "July 1949 was exciting, Volume 1 of "Jazz Directory", which covered
                              > Cecil Aagard to Walter Byrd appeared and for the first time there
                              > seemed some prospect of knowing something about the records I was
                              > buying. Although it was immeasurably better than anything that had
                              > gone before if was woefully inadequate by today's standards. It did,
                              > however, cover the full period from jazz's beginnings up until 1949
                              > and covered the whole world, rather than just USA and Britain. Dave
                              > Carey, Albert McCarthy and Ralph Venables managed to reach as far as
                              > Fred Longshaw by the time the last, and most accurate, volume came out
                              > in 1957, but there seemed little chance that information on Bob Zurke
                              > would ever get into print."
                              >
                              > When Ralph died, his collection (over 10,000 records, mostly white
                              > jazz including all of Bix's Claxtonolas) went to J. R. T. Davies.
                              >
                              > Albert
                              >
                              > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Venables seems to emerge as the dubious source for much supposed
                              Oliver.
                              > > Did he also have input into non-Oliver discography generally ? I
                              > think the
                              > > first editions of 'Jazz Directory' also carry his name.
                              > >
                              > > I have never doubted Oliver on the Alexander but I shall revisit
                              > after many
                              > > years and I note that my 1st Ed. Rust/Allen does not claim that
                              Clarence
                              > > confirmed here, unlike Okeh 8645. What does the latest Laurie Wright
                              > edition
                              > > have ?
                              > >
                              > > I also see that the personnel for Okeh 8620 --Hazel Smith -- is
                              > reported as
                              > > solely from ' Columbia files ( via George Avakian) '. Is this so
                              > Howard ?
                              > >
                              > > Dave
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ---------------------------------
                              > Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on
                              Yahoo! TV.
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • tommersl
                              Are there any reissues of his books? I m talking about 2 books he did with Cliff Jones. Tommersl
                              Message 14 of 21 , May 29, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Are there any reissues of his books? I'm talking about 2 books he did
                                with Cliff Jones.
                                Tommersl
                              • Albert Haim
                                I do not believe Ralph s booklets (with Cliff Jones) have been reissued. I have seen the Bix booklet on ebay once or twice in the last year or two. Albert
                                Message 15 of 21 , May 29, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I do not believe Ralph's booklets (with Cliff Jones) have been
                                  reissued. I have seen the Bix booklet on ebay once or twice in the
                                  last year or two.

                                  Albert

                                  --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Are there any reissues of his books? I'm talking about 2 books he did
                                  > with Cliff Jones.
                                  > Tommersl
                                  >
                                • Howard Rye
                                  on 29/5/07 21:33, tommersl at tommersl@yahoo.com wrote: Are there any reissues of his books? I m talking about 2 books he did with Cliff Jones. Tommersl If
                                  Message 16 of 21 , May 29, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    on 29/5/07 21:33, tommersl at tommersl@... wrote:

                                    Are there any reissues of his books? I'm talking about 2 books he did
                                    with Cliff Jones.
                                    Tommersl

                                    If you're referring to the two issues of 'Eye Witness Jazz' which Venables
                                    and Jones edited in 1946, these are more of magazines than books, two of a
                                    large number of similar pamphlet-size publications produced in Britain in
                                    the mid-40s when paper shortages meant that no new magazines could be
                                    started. The first contains an article by Ralph on 'Jimmy McPartland's U.S.
                                    Camp Shows' which has a 1944 caricature of Venables at the wheel of a sports
                                    car. This suggests that his appearance changed hardly at all between then
                                    and the photos illustrating the web-site Albert drew attention to.

                                    Venables and Jones had previously issued an actual magazine called
                                    'Discography', which ran to several issues in 1942-4 before the authorities
                                    caught up with them. The January 1943 issue, which I don't appear to have,
                                    evidently contained an Ed Lang Race Discography by Venables which I fancy
                                    might prove to be the ultimate source of much of what we have been
                                    discussing!

                                    Some of the stuff from these pamphlets was reprinted in a magazine called
                                    'Jazz Reprints' but this is probably now rarer than the originals, which are
                                    quite commonly met with in sad testimony to the original owners dropping off
                                    the perch. If anyone is looking for them, the sales lists issued by the
                                    British Institute of Jazz Studies would be a good place to start.

                                    Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                    howard@...
                                    Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Albert Haim
                                    The details of the booklet about Bix are as follows, R.G.B. Venables and Clifford Jones: Bix Beiderbecke, London, Discographical Society Pamphlet, 1947, 24p.
                                    Message 17 of 21 , May 29, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      The details of the booklet about Bix are as follows,

                                      R.G.B. Venables and Clifford Jones: Bix Beiderbecke, London,
                                      Discographical Society Pamphlet, 1947, 24p.

                                      The other book I was thinking of is about Sterling Bose (again!) but
                                      authored by Ralph only.

                                      Ralph Venables: Reprints and Reflections. The Story of Sterling Bose
                                      (Melbourne, Miller, 1945; Miller Booklet 4)

                                      I have the Bix booklet, but not the one about Bose.

                                      Other books by Venables and Jones as mentioned by Howard are:

                                      Cliff Jones and Ralph Venables (eds): Eye Witness Jazz, London,
                                      Discographical's Society Books, 1948, 26p.
                                      Cliff Jones and Ralph Venables (eds): Eye Witness Jazz No.2, London,
                                      Discographical Society Books, 1946, 26p.
                                      Cliff Jones and Ralph Venables (eds): Cream of the White Clarinets,
                                      London, Discographical Society Pamphlet, 1947, 22p.

                                      I don't have any of these.

                                      Albert


                                      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Haim" <alberthaim@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I do not believe Ralph's booklets (with Cliff Jones) have been
                                      > reissued. I have seen the Bix booklet on ebay once or twice in the
                                      > last year or two.
                                      >
                                      > Albert
                                      >
                                      > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "tommersl" <tommersl@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Are there any reissues of his books? I'm talking about 2 books he did
                                      > > with Cliff Jones.
                                      > > Tommersl
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • Dan Van Landingham
                                      I mentioned Tony Colucci as member because of a picture I saw in the Columbia boxed LP set Thesaurus of Classic Jazz .Bose I know something about as I have
                                      Message 18 of 21 , May 29, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        I mentioned Tony Colucci as member because of a picture I saw in the Columbia boxed LP set "Thesaurus of Classic Jazz".Bose I know something about as I have several records he was in in the 1930s.He was on Glenn Miller's one and only Decca session in March of 1935.I used to have a couple of Vocalion 78s from April,1939 in which Bose was listed.He was with Tommy Dorsey in early 1936 on Victor.He had done a short stint with Ray Noble.Bob Zurke recorded for Victor very briefly between 1939 and May of 1940.One of my favourite sides was his recording of "Cow Cow Blues"(5/8/40).Chelsea Qualey(or Quealy)was on the band.I first heard of Qualey in the aforementioned "Thesaurus of Classic Jazz".John Chilton,in his Who's Who of Jazz,lists his dates as 1905 to 1950.He died in Las Vegas,Nevada.Stan King was the original drummer and I had records he had done with Louis Prima for ARC.In the late '20s I know he had worked with Seger Ellis recording for OKeh and,to refer from the "Thesaurus
                                        of Classic Jazz" once again,I saw a picture of Ellis working with Eddie Lang,guitar;Stan King on drums;Frank Signorelli on piano and Irving Duffy on violin.The trumpeter(or cornetist)was Fuzzy Farrar.The sole reedman was Jimmy Dorsey.I once had an OKeh 80 rpm recording of the song "I'm a Dreamer(But Aren't We All)" that I wore out by 1968.It was a black label OKeh in the 41XXX series.I am going to check with redhotjazz.com again regarding an OKeh I have by the Arthur Schutt Orchestra called "My Fate is in Your Hands".I think Bose is on that particular record.

                                        Albert Haim <alberthaim@...> wrote:
                                        Dan,

                                        Six of the Gennett recordings by the Wolverines were also issued on
                                        Claxtonola:

                                        Oh Baby - Gnt 5453 Cx 40336
                                        Copenhagen - Gnt 5453 Cx 40336
                                        Riverboat Shuffle - Gnt 5454 Cx 40339
                                        Susie of the Islands - Gnt 5454 Cx 40339
                                        Sensation - Gnt 5542 Cx 40375
                                        Lazy Daddy - Gnt 5542 Cx 40375

                                        Tony Colucci was not a member of the New Yorkers, nor did he record
                                        with Bix and Tram during their period between Goldkette and Whiteman,
                                        nor at any other time. Eddie Lang was the guitarist (and perhaps
                                        banjoist) with the New Yorkers and in the Bix and Tram recordings of
                                        that period.

                                        The recording of "Sugar" by Frank Trumbauer and His Orchestra was done
                                        in the afternoon of Oct 26, 1927. Presumably Bix was present, but in
                                        no condition to play. In the morning the same tune was recorded by Red
                                        Nichols and Trumbauer without Bix. The identity of the trumpet/cornet
                                        solo in Tram's version of Sugar is highly controversial. Bill Rank,
                                        Chauncey Morehouse, Boe Ashford and Red Nichols identified the soloist
                                        as Bix. Bix experts, Richard Sudhalter and Randy Sandke (and as far as
                                        I remember J.R.T. Davies) do not believe the soloist is Bix. Neither do I.

                                        All I know about Bob Zurke is that his band is the penultimate entry
                                        in Rust's Jazz Records Discography and that some of his trumpet men
                                        -Sterling (or Stirling) Bose and Chelsea Quealey- were highly
                                        influenced by Bix in the 1920s. Bose was a roommate of Bix's in St.
                                        Louis in 1925 or 1926.

                                        Albert

                                        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Dan Van Landingham
                                        <danvanlandingham@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > When did Bix record for Claxtona?I have never heard as I am familiar
                                        with what he recorded between 1924 and 1930 on Victor,Columbia,OKeh as
                                        well as a mysterious date allegedly with Sam Lanin.In "Bix Man and
                                        Legend",there was some speculation by Sudhalter that Bix recorded for
                                        him because of a check Lanin made out to Bix circa 1925.Bix did work
                                        with some of the men in Lanin's band:trumpeter Herman "Hymie"
                                        Farberman is the one I can handily recall at this moment.I had an LP
                                        some twenty five years ago that had a track by
                                        > "The Stellar Dance Orchestra" that was issued on a label called
                                        "Broadway".The speculation was that Bix and Tram recorded with the
                                        band between the time that Goldkette broke up his band and the time
                                        both Bix and Tram joined Paul Whiteman.I know that between Goldkette
                                        and Whiteman,Bix and Tram worked in the "New Yorkers" band led by
                                        Adrian Rollini and featuring Rank,Lang,Bix,Tram and a couple of now
                                        forgotten men:alto saxist Bobby Davis,banjoist Tony Colucci and
                                        trumpeter Sylvester Ahola.Also,what of that record date Red Nichols
                                        did for Victor with Tram?Tram did a date for Victor with Nichols then
                                        proceed to do a date under his own name.Nichols was supposed to have
                                        played but when Tom Rockwell,recording chief for OKeh at the
                                        time,refused to let Nichols play.Rockwell would do it but Bix had to
                                        play.Tram and Red found him God knows where but Bix was wiped out.Bix
                                        was brought to the studio to show Rockwell as to Bix's condition but
                                        it didn't matter.There was speculation by
                                        > Sudhalter that a good Bix imitator named Bo Ashford did the date
                                        but was unable to get any evidence to that effect.That bit of info was
                                        in "Bix Man &
                                        > Legend".In closing,you mentioned Bob Zurke;what of him? I remember
                                        reading that while growing up in Detroit in the '20s,he transcribed
                                        arrangements of McKinney's Cotton Pickers
                                        > from what I remember.I could be wrong on that.
                                        >
                                        > Albert Haim <alberthaim@...> wrote:
                                        > Ralph V. G. Venables was a record collector who wrote
                                        several articles
                                        > in jazz magazines from the 1940s or 50s on. [He also wrote about
                                        > motorcycles. See http://www.swallowcliffe.com/locals-venables.htm%5d. I
                                        > believe that his favorite musicians were Red Nichols and Bix
                                        > Beiderbecke. He wrote a lot about Bix. Ralph wrote to Frank Trumbauer
                                        > asking discographical questions. Here is a link to page 1 of
                                        > an article
                                        >
                                        > http://www.bixbeiderbecke.com/rhythmjuly1939p1.html
                                        >
                                        > in which Ralph reported some of his findings. One of the most
                                        > important ones, as far as I am concerned, is the fact that the
                                        > trombonist in "Singin' the Blues" is Miff Mole and not Bill Rank as
                                        > usually assumed.
                                        >
                                        > Bill Dean-Myatt once wrote to me and mentioned Ralph's efforts in
                                        > discographical research. Here is what Bill wrote,
                                        >
                                        > "July 1949 was exciting, Volume 1 of "Jazz Directory", which covered
                                        > Cecil Aagard to Walter Byrd appeared and for the first time there
                                        > seemed some prospect of knowing something about the records I was
                                        > buying. Although it was immeasurably better than anything that had
                                        > gone before if was woefully inadequate by today's standards. It did,
                                        > however, cover the full period from jazz's beginnings up until 1949
                                        > and covered the whole world, rather than just USA and Britain. Dave
                                        > Carey, Albert McCarthy and Ralph Venables managed to reach as far as
                                        > Fred Longshaw by the time the last, and most accurate, volume came out
                                        > in 1957, but there seemed little chance that information on Bob Zurke
                                        > would ever get into print."
                                        >
                                        > When Ralph died, his collection (over 10,000 records, mostly white
                                        > jazz including all of Bix's Claxtonolas) went to J. R. T. Davies.
                                        >
                                        > Albert
                                        >
                                        > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Venables seems to emerge as the dubious source for much supposed
                                        Oliver.
                                        > > Did he also have input into non-Oliver discography generally ? I
                                        > think the
                                        > > first editions of 'Jazz Directory' also carry his name.
                                        > >
                                        > > I have never doubted Oliver on the Alexander but I shall revisit
                                        > after many
                                        > > years and I note that my 1st Ed. Rust/Allen does not claim that
                                        Clarence
                                        > > confirmed here, unlike Okeh 8645. What does the latest Laurie Wright
                                        > edition
                                        > > have ?
                                        > >
                                        > > I also see that the personnel for Okeh 8620 --Hazel Smith -- is
                                        > reported as
                                        > > solely from ' Columbia files ( via George Avakian) '. Is this so
                                        > Howard ?
                                        > >
                                        > > Dave
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ---------------------------------
                                        > Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on
                                        Yahoo! TV.
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >






                                        ---------------------------------
                                        Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
                                        in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Dan Van Landingham
                                        I mentioned Tony Colucci as member because of a picture I saw in the Columbia boxed LP set Thesaurus of Classic Jazz .Bose I know something about as I have
                                        Message 19 of 21 , May 29, 2007
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          I mentioned Tony Colucci as member because of a picture I saw in the Columbia boxed LP set "Thesaurus of Classic Jazz".Bose I know something about as I have several records he was in in the 1930s.He was on Glenn Miller's one and only Decca session in March of 1935.I used to have a couple of Vocalion 78s from April,1939 in which Bose was listed.He was with Tommy Dorsey in early 1936 on Victor.He had done a short stint with Ray Noble.Bob Zurke recorded for Victor very briefly between 1939 and May of 1940.One of my favourite sides was his recording of "Cow Cow Blues"(5/8/40).Chelsea Qualey(or Quealy)was on the band.I first heard of Qualey in the aforementioned "Thesaurus of Classic Jazz".John Chilton,in his Who's Who of Jazz,lists his dates as 1905 to 1950.He died in Las Vegas,Nevada.Stan King was the original drummer and I had records he had done with Louis Prima for ARC.In the late '20s I know he had worked with Seger Ellis recording for OKeh and,to refer from the "Thesaurus
                                          of Classic Jazz" once again,I saw a picture of Ellis working with Eddie Lang,guitar;Stan King on drums;Frank Signorelli on piano and Irving Duffy on violin.The trumpeter(or cornetist)was Fuzzy Farrar.The sole reedman was Jimmy Dorsey.I once had an OKeh 80 rpm recording of the song "I'm a Dreamer(But Aren't We All)" that I wore out by 1968.It was a black label OKeh in the 41XXX series.I am going to check with redhotjazz.com again regarding an OKeh I have by the Arthur Schutt Orchestra called "My Fate is in Your Hands".I think Bose is on that particular record.

                                          Albert Haim <alberthaim@...> wrote:
                                          Dan,

                                          Six of the Gennett recordings by the Wolverines were also issued on
                                          Claxtonola:

                                          Oh Baby - Gnt 5453 Cx 40336
                                          Copenhagen - Gnt 5453 Cx 40336
                                          Riverboat Shuffle - Gnt 5454 Cx 40339
                                          Susie of the Islands - Gnt 5454 Cx 40339
                                          Sensation - Gnt 5542 Cx 40375
                                          Lazy Daddy - Gnt 5542 Cx 40375

                                          Tony Colucci was not a member of the New Yorkers, nor did he record
                                          with Bix and Tram during their period between Goldkette and Whiteman,
                                          nor at any other time. Eddie Lang was the guitarist (and perhaps
                                          banjoist) with the New Yorkers and in the Bix and Tram recordings of
                                          that period.

                                          The recording of "Sugar" by Frank Trumbauer and His Orchestra was done
                                          in the afternoon of Oct 26, 1927. Presumably Bix was present, but in
                                          no condition to play. In the morning the same tune was recorded by Red
                                          Nichols and Trumbauer without Bix. The identity of the trumpet/cornet
                                          solo in Tram's version of Sugar is highly controversial. Bill Rank,
                                          Chauncey Morehouse, Boe Ashford and Red Nichols identified the soloist
                                          as Bix. Bix experts, Richard Sudhalter and Randy Sandke (and as far as
                                          I remember J.R.T. Davies) do not believe the soloist is Bix. Neither do I.

                                          All I know about Bob Zurke is that his band is the penultimate entry
                                          in Rust's Jazz Records Discography and that some of his trumpet men
                                          -Sterling (or Stirling) Bose and Chelsea Quealey- were highly
                                          influenced by Bix in the 1920s. Bose was a roommate of Bix's in St.
                                          Louis in 1925 or 1926.

                                          Albert

                                          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Dan Van Landingham
                                          <danvanlandingham@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > When did Bix record for Claxtona?I have never heard as I am familiar
                                          with what he recorded between 1924 and 1930 on Victor,Columbia,OKeh as
                                          well as a mysterious date allegedly with Sam Lanin.In "Bix Man and
                                          Legend",there was some speculation by Sudhalter that Bix recorded for
                                          him because of a check Lanin made out to Bix circa 1925.Bix did work
                                          with some of the men in Lanin's band:trumpeter Herman "Hymie"
                                          Farberman is the one I can handily recall at this moment.I had an LP
                                          some twenty five years ago that had a track by
                                          > "The Stellar Dance Orchestra" that was issued on a label called
                                          "Broadway".The speculation was that Bix and Tram recorded with the
                                          band between the time that Goldkette broke up his band and the time
                                          both Bix and Tram joined Paul Whiteman.I know that between Goldkette
                                          and Whiteman,Bix and Tram worked in the "New Yorkers" band led by
                                          Adrian Rollini and featuring Rank,Lang,Bix,Tram and a couple of now
                                          forgotten men:alto saxist Bobby Davis,banjoist Tony Colucci and
                                          trumpeter Sylvester Ahola.Also,what of that record date Red Nichols
                                          did for Victor with Tram?Tram did a date for Victor with Nichols then
                                          proceed to do a date under his own name.Nichols was supposed to have
                                          played but when Tom Rockwell,recording chief for OKeh at the
                                          time,refused to let Nichols play.Rockwell would do it but Bix had to
                                          play.Tram and Red found him God knows where but Bix was wiped out.Bix
                                          was brought to the studio to show Rockwell as to Bix's condition but
                                          it didn't matter.There was speculation by
                                          > Sudhalter that a good Bix imitator named Bo Ashford did the date
                                          but was unable to get any evidence to that effect.That bit of info was
                                          in "Bix Man &
                                          > Legend".In closing,you mentioned Bob Zurke;what of him? I remember
                                          reading that while growing up in Detroit in the '20s,he transcribed
                                          arrangements of McKinney's Cotton Pickers
                                          > from what I remember.I could be wrong on that.
                                          >
                                          > Albert Haim <alberthaim@...> wrote:
                                          > Ralph V. G. Venables was a record collector who wrote
                                          several articles
                                          > in jazz magazines from the 1940s or 50s on. [He also wrote about
                                          > motorcycles. See http://www.swallowcliffe.com/locals-venables.htm%5d. I
                                          > believe that his favorite musicians were Red Nichols and Bix
                                          > Beiderbecke. He wrote a lot about Bix. Ralph wrote to Frank Trumbauer
                                          > asking discographical questions. Here is a link to page 1 of
                                          > an article
                                          >
                                          > http://www.bixbeiderbecke.com/rhythmjuly1939p1.html
                                          >
                                          > in which Ralph reported some of his findings. One of the most
                                          > important ones, as far as I am concerned, is the fact that the
                                          > trombonist in "Singin' the Blues" is Miff Mole and not Bill Rank as
                                          > usually assumed.
                                          >
                                          > Bill Dean-Myatt once wrote to me and mentioned Ralph's efforts in
                                          > discographical research. Here is what Bill wrote,
                                          >
                                          > "July 1949 was exciting, Volume 1 of "Jazz Directory", which covered
                                          > Cecil Aagard to Walter Byrd appeared and for the first time there
                                          > seemed some prospect of knowing something about the records I was
                                          > buying. Although it was immeasurably better than anything that had
                                          > gone before if was woefully inadequate by today's standards. It did,
                                          > however, cover the full period from jazz's beginnings up until 1949
                                          > and covered the whole world, rather than just USA and Britain. Dave
                                          > Carey, Albert McCarthy and Ralph Venables managed to reach as far as
                                          > Fred Longshaw by the time the last, and most accurate, volume came out
                                          > in 1957, but there seemed little chance that information on Bob Zurke
                                          > would ever get into print."
                                          >
                                          > When Ralph died, his collection (over 10,000 records, mostly white
                                          > jazz including all of Bix's Claxtonolas) went to J. R. T. Davies.
                                          >
                                          > Albert
                                          >
                                          > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@>
                                          > wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Venables seems to emerge as the dubious source for much supposed
                                          Oliver.
                                          > > Did he also have input into non-Oliver discography generally ? I
                                          > think the
                                          > > first editions of 'Jazz Directory' also carry his name.
                                          > >
                                          > > I have never doubted Oliver on the Alexander but I shall revisit
                                          > after many
                                          > > years and I note that my 1st Ed. Rust/Allen does not claim that
                                          Clarence
                                          > > confirmed here, unlike Okeh 8645. What does the latest Laurie Wright
                                          > edition
                                          > > have ?
                                          > >
                                          > > I also see that the personnel for Okeh 8620 --Hazel Smith -- is
                                          > reported as
                                          > > solely from ' Columbia files ( via George Avakian) '. Is this so
                                          > Howard ?
                                          > >
                                          > > Dave
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ---------------------------------
                                          > Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on
                                          Yahoo! TV.
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >






                                          ---------------------------------
                                          Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing.

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • tommersl
                                          Thank you for the information Howard and Albert. I was wishing someone can point me to a place I can directly buy it. Here is maybe a public call to Patrice
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Jun 1, 2007
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Thank you for the information Howard and Albert. I was wishing someone
                                            can point me to a place I can directly buy it. Here is maybe a public
                                            call to Patrice and Michael to start some sort of a group list of
                                            relevant and essential books and articles and where those can be found
                                            for a quick purchase. I'm speaking for myself but assume there are
                                            other members whom like me are just getting more interested as time
                                            goes by and has a lot yet to explore, and the problem of what and where.
                                            Tommersl
                                          • Patrice Champarou
                                            ... From: tommersl To: Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 10:53 PM Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: Ralph Venables (w
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Jun 2, 2007
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: "tommersl" <tommersl@...>
                                              To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 10:53 PM
                                              Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: Ralph Venables (w Texas Alexander)


                                              > Thank you for the information Howard and Albert. I was wishing someone
                                              > can point me to a place I can directly buy it. Here is maybe a public
                                              > call to Patrice and Michael to start some sort of a group list of
                                              > relevant and essential books and articles and where those can be found
                                              > for a quick purchase.

                                              I think the most suitable part of the group's pages would be the database.
                                              You can create one if you have the relevant entries in mind, after what all
                                              members can add records provided they have a Yahoo account. I suggest you
                                              have a look at the "members" table (three entries, lol!) as an example, then
                                              if you do not want to create it yourself I can follow your instructions.
                                              Just go there http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/RedHotJazz/database and
                                              do not hesitate to click "create table", make tests using the blank template
                                              and see what it looks like, I never tried that but it seems very easy.

                                              Patrice
                                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.