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Re: When did Jazz die?

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  • tommersl
    Patrice, I m talking about the way Jazz was advancing downward over the years. It started as something very actual. What I meant is that many Jazz fans prefer
    Message 1 of 30 , Mar 16, 2007
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      Patrice, I'm talking about the way Jazz was advancing downward over
      the years. It started as something very actual. What I meant is that
      many Jazz fans prefer to go back in time in order to hear Jelly Roll
      Morton and Louis Armstrong in their peak rather than listen to
      today's Jazz. There was a process that I'm talking about that made
      Jazz not appealing as it used to be. In the process Jazz became what
      it is today, it goes nowhere. And the thing that worries is that
      someone tries to market the 1960's Jazz more than it's worth. There
      are Rock fans that prey on Coltrane but they don't know that there's
      a real Jazz to consume. I think big labels that started well like
      Blue Note were later going into a whale suicide affect on Jazz that
      lives us with not much future. And it started when they grabbed un-
      naturaly the Jazz leading from the hands of African-American audience
      and went into directions of Classical music ideas that were decided
      by expert critics in order to expand their sales to broader crowds
      and to open the gates to musicians that were playing outer to Jazz
      music that seems "advanced", "energetic" and etc. I'm not saying it's
      a good or no good music, just that it's not the way Jazz would evolve
      naturally.
      Tommersl

      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Patrice Champarou"
      <patrice.champarou@...> wrote:
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "tommersl"
      >
      > > Everybody knows Jazz wasn't as good as the early days.
      >
      > Sorry, Tommer, I am probably not part of the "everybody" you're
      mentioning.
      >
      > I think it is always interesting to discuss the peculiarities or
      early jazz,
      > which were the reasons for me to create this group, compared to
      post-war and
      > contemporary music; but I guess you will have a hard time
      convincing
      > everybody that jazz ever died. Even if you do think so (which has
      nothing to
      > do with each and everyone's appreciation of the musical quality)
      there must
      > be a better starting point than just stating this as if everybody
      here was
      > stuck in the past ;-)
      >
      > Patrice
      >
    • Hugh Crozier
      I am firmly with Patrice on this. Of course classic jazz has not died. Variants calling themselves mainstream or modern may have died, or may not, I am not
      Message 2 of 30 , Mar 16, 2007
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        I am firmly with Patrice on this. Of course classic jazz has not died. Variants calling themselves 'mainstream' or 'modern' may have died, or may not, I am not really interested in those. I am also not interested in trad, although, to be fair, that is how I discovered classic jazz.

        Last weekend I was was playing with George Huxley who likes to model his soprano sax playing on Bechet and his clarinet work on Dodds. He is very popular, especially in the Midlands, and it is great for me to play classic jazz. It is a performance art. As long as there are people who want to perform it, it will never 'die', in the same way that Mozart's work will never 'die' while there are publishers willing to publish it.#

        Hugh


        ----- Original Message ----
        From: tommersl <tommersl@...>
        To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, 16 March, 2007 11:36:23 PM
        Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: When did Jazz die?

        Patrice, I'm talking about the way Jazz was advancing downward over
        the years. It started as something very actual. What I meant is that
        many Jazz fans prefer to go back in time in order to hear Jelly Roll
        Morton and Louis Armstrong in their peak rather than listen to
        today's Jazz. There was a process that I'm talking about that made
        Jazz not appealing as it used to be. In the process Jazz became what
        it is today, it goes nowhere. And the thing that worries is that
        someone tries to market the 1960's Jazz more than it's worth. There
        are Rock fans that prey on Coltrane but they don't know that there's
        a real Jazz to consume. I think big labels that started well like
        Blue Note were later going into a whale suicide affect on Jazz that
        lives us with not much future. And it started when they grabbed un-
        naturaly the Jazz leading from the hands of African-American audience
        and went into directions of Classical music ideas that were decided
        by expert critics in order to expand their sales to broader crowds
        and to open the gates to musicians that were playing outer to Jazz
        music that seems "advanced", "energetic" and etc. I'm not saying it's
        a good or no good music, just that it's not the way Jazz would evolve
        naturally.
        Tommersl

        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogro ups.com, "Patrice Champarou"
        <patrice.champarou@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "tommersl"
        >
        > > Everybody knows Jazz wasn't as good as the early days.
        >
        > Sorry, Tommer, I am probably not part of the "everybody" you're
        mentioning.
        >
        > I think it is always interesting to discuss the peculiarities or
        early jazz,
        > which were the reasons for me to create this group, compared to
        post-war and
        > contemporary music; but I guess you will have a hard time
        convincing
        > everybody that jazz ever died. Even if you do think so (which has
        nothing to
        > do with each and everyone's appreciation of the musical quality)
        there must
        > be a better starting point than just stating this as if everybody
        here was
        > stuck in the past ;-)
        >
        > Patrice
        >






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      • Rick Hensel
        Greetings. I m a new member to this site. I joined two days ago. I ve always been a jazz fan; mostly Big Band, Swing, Dixieland, and the Hot jazz of the
        Message 3 of 30 , Mar 16, 2007
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          Greetings.

          I'm a new member to this site. I joined two days ago. I've always been a jazz fan; mostly Big Band, Swing, Dixieland, and the "Hot" jazz of the 20's & 30's. While I can tolerate some of Charlie Parker's stuff, and enjoy Dave Brubeck, Buddy Rich and George Benson here and there, I say, "Give me the JASS that was meant to be, from the 1890's to the early 1940's", and skip Bebop, (con)Fusion and most of the "newer" stuff!

          My wife and I just watched the entire 9-tape Ken Burns "Jazz" video series.....twice in the past two months. She has come to appreciate jazz music--and the early, great stuff--ten times as much as she used to!

          I've been doing a research piece on jazz musicians and influential people, as a follow-up to the tapes, and am enjoying learning quite a bit about the whole thing. I found the site as a cross-reference from the "Red Hot Jazz" information site.

          I hope I'll have as much fun getting into lively discussion with other members here, on occasion.

          Rick



          Hugh Crozier <jellyrollstomp@...> wrote:
          I am firmly with Patrice on this. Of course classic jazz has not died. Variants calling themselves 'mainstream' or 'modern' may have died, or may not, I am not really interested in those. I am also not interested in trad, although, to be fair, that is how I discovered classic jazz.

          Last weekend I was was playing with George Huxley who likes to model his soprano sax playing on Bechet and his clarinet work on Dodds. He is very popular, especially in the Midlands, and it is great for me to play classic jazz. It is a performance art. As long as there are people who want to perform it, it will never 'die', in the same way that Mozart's work will never 'die' while there are publishers willing to publish it.#

          Hugh

          ---------------------------------
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          with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • paul gronemeier
          Heyyyy very good question....being a piano player...ive asked this question since the 70s. When was OUR music gonna run out?! Back then i enjoyed
          Message 4 of 30 , Mar 16, 2007
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            Heyyyy very good question....being a piano player...ive asked this question since the 70s. When was OUR music gonna run out?! Back then i enjoyed playing And talking to those people that actually heard And lived that music...they would have 5 or 6 drinks and sing.... but as time went along there were fewer and fewer.... until the 90s when they would even bring their own popcorn and drink water.....<bar owners dont make much on that> lol you would have to be 100+years old now to know this music now and im sure theyre not big drinkers. There are a lot of good festivals and musicians out there still but im afraid just like the jigs and reels of the civil war days in the years to come theres not gonna be a big calling or remembering of this music that We love.

            Patrice Champarou <patrice.champarou@...> wrote: ----- Original Message -----
            From: "tommersl"

            > Everybody knows Jazz wasn't as good as the early days.

            Sorry, Tommer, I am probably not part of the "everybody" you're mentioning.

            I think it is always interesting to discuss the peculiarities or early jazz,
            which were the reasons for me to create this group, compared to post-war and
            contemporary music; but I guess you will have a hard time convincing
            everybody that jazz ever died. Even if you do think so (which has nothing to
            do with each and everyone's appreciation of the musical quality) there must
            be a better starting point than just stating this as if everybody here was
            stuck in the past ;-)

            Patrice






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          • Patrice Champarou
            I am afraid I still do not understand the question (or did it contain the reply already?) I suppose everyone is free to fix their own limits to what they
            Message 5 of 30 , Mar 17, 2007
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              I am afraid I still do not understand the question (or did it contain the
              reply already?)

              I suppose everyone is free to fix their own limits to what they consider as
              real jazz, and I guess there will be as many different replies as members on
              this list. Some will even consider there is no real difference between
              Lester Young and Archie Shepp, others will declare that jazz started dying
              in the 30's (wasn't Morton's piece called "Dirty, Dirty, Dirty" a parody of
              swing?) but I doubt this can lead us anywhere.

              This is no place for me to explain why I consider John Coltrane's Alabama as
              a masterpiece or why Thelonious Monk is the one I would take to the desert
              island. I reject the idea of "downgrading" just as much as the concept of
              "progress" applied to music, and if the original question concerned the
              evolution of styles, I doubt that marketing purposes or the introduction of
              long-playing recording by Blue Note played a greater part than what the
              musicians wished to play and what the audience expected to hear.
              Everyone is free to hate Gillespie or Bud Powell, but considering that their
              music is no longer jazz is another thing, which cannot rely on shortcuts. I
              remember some literature around Panassié's "battle" which introduced an
              artificial play on the word "bop", so as to explain that Gene Vincent and
              Charlie Parker played exactly the same "modern thing"! Here I cannot help
              protesting that I never met a Rock fan who payed any attention to post-war
              jazz, which they consider as too intellectual - and talking about "gods", I
              wonder if we can still find anything as superlative as what my or your
              parents said about Armstrong or Bix, at least in the jazz field (the only
              "God" being, as everyone knows, Eric Clapton! ;-)))
              If the complaint is about so little space being devoted to pre-war music in
              record shops while Miles Davis or Keith Jarrett are oll over the place, I
              can join, but have things ever been better? There have never been so many -
              and so affordable - reissues than today, you can always state that they are
              too confidential but I prefer seeing the place flooded with Blue Note
              reissues than seeing Sinatra, the Four Tops, Presley or ZZ Top filed under
              "jazz"!
              And as far as more and more jazz lovers turning to musicians of the past,
              why complain? It is no-one's fault if there haven't been any Mortons or J.S.
              Bachs for a while, it is just the way music changes - and you won't force
              the African-American audience to support styles that were clearly related to
              segregation, prohibition, depression and misery, and the most incredible
              unequality - this is purely intellectual nostalgia which only wealthy
              intellectual whites can afford, just like regretting the good old times of
              hard work from sun to sun on the Mississippi Delta plantations which
              produced such fascinating blues!

              Patrice
            • eupher dude
              part of the problem is the perception of old time jazz as not being real jazz. I was told by a board member of a local jazz support group that they only
              Message 6 of 30 , Mar 17, 2007
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                part of the problem is the perception of "old time jazz" as not being 'real'
                jazz. I was told by a board member of a local jazz support group that they
                "only support real jazz", meaning I don't know what.

                That jazz--the bop, cool, fusion, whatever--might not be dead, but it only
                has a small life support system, which is really only the players. IMO,
                they are styles for the informed, not the casual listener. And, while I
                don't claim to be the most talented ear-wise, I have a fairly advanced
                ability to hear in the jazz sense. But, I still don't get it.

                steve

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              • redw1ne
                Hello, I m a new member and first time poster. I m a professional clarinetist (both jazz and classical) in the Washington, D.C. area. As for this topic, I
                Message 7 of 30 , Mar 17, 2007
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                  Hello,

                  I'm a new member and first time poster.

                  I'm a professional clarinetist (both jazz and classical) in the
                  Washington, D.C. area.

                  As for this topic, I think the original poster was trying to be
                  provocative. In truth, as long as there are performers and listeners
                  of jazz, it is not dead. One can like or dislike a sub-genre of
                  jazz, but I think it is unfair to denounce any of it, even if this
                  forum is for pre-war jazz or if you don't like it. The fact is that
                  all great performers of all sub-genres of jazz do what they do very
                  well. Even though I don't necessarily like the "new" jazz, I can
                  appreciate what performers do in that sub-genre. For my playing, I'm
                  definitely influenced by all forms of jazz that I've listened to, but
                  I've found my niche in what I call "old" jazz. I prefer to recreate
                  the notes of the past from the 1920s on through Artie Shaw (my
                  idol). That being said, I'm sure that some more modern harmonies
                  creep into my playing, just because I've listened to more modern
                  players. My sound is definitely not like the old players, but more
                  modern. Please feel free to contact me personally, if you are
                  interested in going to any of my concerts in the D.C. area!

                  Ben Redwine
                  www.redwinejazz.com
                  --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "eupher dude" <eupher61@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > part of the problem is the perception of "old time jazz" as not
                  being 'real'
                  > jazz. I was told by a board member of a local jazz support group
                  that they
                  > "only support real jazz", meaning I don't know what.
                  >
                  > That jazz--the bop, cool, fusion, whatever--might not be dead, but
                  it only
                  > has a small life support system, which is really only the players.
                  IMO,
                  > they are styles for the informed, not the casual listener. And,
                  while I
                  > don't claim to be the most talented ear-wise, I have a fairly
                  advanced
                  > ability to hear in the jazz sense. But, I still don't get it.
                  >
                  > steve
                  >
                  > _________________________________________________________________
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                  >
                • Lluis Sala
                  I am thousands of light years away from the knowledge of most of you frequent posters in this list, but I can t resist give my layman insights on this. By
                  Message 8 of 30 , Mar 17, 2007
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                    I am thousands of light years away from the knowledge of most of you
                    frequent posters in this list, but I can't resist give my layman insights on
                    this.

                    By reading Ted Gioia's "History of jazz" 6-7 years ago I was able to
                    understand why some artists and some records where key in the history of
                    jazz. It was my perception that from early days jazz headed to a dead end
                    with free jazz (which I don't understand, musically speaking). So, since
                    then, it's probably been mostly about revivals, recreations, etc. of the
                    different styles, but not true innovations as they happened in the 20's and
                    30's. Maybe it's so simple as that eveything -or almost everything- has been
                    invented in this idiom and that the pioneers will always be admired and
                    recognized, as it happens in every aspect of life.

                    I don't know if I went too off-topic, but this is my perception.

                    Cheers,

                    Lluis Sala
                    Girona, Spain
                    http://lsala66.spaces.live.com/
                  • tobinpreston@netscape.net
                    One might as well ask When did Ragtime die ?, or When did Strauss waltzes die? or when did the Bible or the Koran become irrelevant and extinct? jazz like
                    Message 9 of 30 , Mar 17, 2007
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                      One might as well ask "When did Ragtime die ?, or When did Strauss waltzes die? or when did the Bible or the Koran become irrelevant and extinct? jazz like emotion lies in the bones and soul of the musician and the listener.


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: eupher61@...
                      To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 9:34 AM
                      Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] When did Jazz die?


                      part of the problem is the perception of "old time jazz" as not being 'real'
                      jazz. I was told by a board member of a local jazz support group that they
                      "only support real jazz", meaning I don't know what.

                      That jazz--the bop, cool, fusion, whatever--might not be dead, but it only
                      has a small life support system, which is really only the players. IMO,
                      they are styles for the informed, not the casual listener. And, while I
                      don't claim to be the most talented ear-wise, I have a fairly advanced
                      ability to hear in the jazz sense. But, I still don't get it.

                      steve

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                    • Patrice Champarou
                      Hello Ben Many thanks for your post, I think most of the old-time (and still young) players I know would have said about the same thing. I also guess the
                      Message 10 of 30 , Mar 17, 2007
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                        Hello Ben

                        Many thanks for your post, I think most of the "old-time" (and still young)
                        players I know would have said about the same thing. I also guess the
                        "original poster" meant to ask a real question, anyway I am also grateful to
                        Tommer for encouraging so many previously silent members to post in no time
                        ;-)
                        Jazz is such a wide field that I suppose no-one can claim to be equally fond
                        of each style or each period, but the really important thing is that the
                        audience can still find what they like, even if some think that such or such
                        type of playing or repertoire is "outdated" or, on the contrary, too far
                        away from the "roots". There has been (and still is) an unexpected and
                        outstanding rebirth of Django-like "Gypsy Swing" in France for the past ten
                        years (or something), and as far as I can remember this type of jazz never
                        lost the audience's support. You can hear a good deal of old-time bands in
                        Paris (le Petit Journal welcomes several bands supported by the HCF) and
                        many small festivals are devoted to traditional jazz. Boogie-Woogie pianist
                        Jean-Paul Amouroux once told me that his greatest satisfaction was to hear
                        people say something like "I don't like jazz, but I love what you do". Who
                        cares, as long as the music is alive?

                        I suppose it would be interesting, but somewhat off-topic, to wonder if the
                        birth of the "New Thing" really resulted into a dead end. I cannot help
                        linking this perspective to the predictions which accompanied free jazz...
                        Abert Ayler never killed Jazz, and Archie Shepp ended up learning harmony;
                        musicians remain musicians, even if they happen to get involved in funny
                        experimentation at definite periods of time. And if one accepts to ignore
                        the critics' verbiage (I think "waffle" is not clearly understood across the
                        pond;-), see and hear what is actually played rather than crying over the
                        most fashionable "tendencies", or the pompous declarations of some
                        disappointed, pessimistic avant-garde musicians regarding the death of
                        syncopated and harmonically structured music, there are good reasons to
                        think that jazz is here to stay.
                        Maybe with no new revolution before years, only clumsy (and IMO nasty)
                        attemps to dissove it into various mixtures... but I do not think we will
                        ever reach the point where all types of living music boil down to a uniform
                        magma, that would mean there is nothing left to mix! ;-)

                        Patrice


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "redw1ne" <clarinet@...>
                        To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 3:58 PM
                        Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: When did Jazz die?


                        Hello,

                        I'm a new member and first time poster.

                        I'm a professional clarinetist (both jazz and classical) in the
                        Washington, D.C. area.

                        As for this topic, I think the original poster was trying to be
                        provocative. In truth, as long as there are performers and listeners
                        of jazz, it is not dead. One can like or dislike a sub-genre of
                        jazz, but I think it is unfair to denounce any of it, even if this
                        forum is for pre-war jazz or if you don't like it. The fact is that
                        all great performers of all sub-genres of jazz do what they do very
                        well. Even though I don't necessarily like the "new" jazz, I can
                        appreciate what performers do in that sub-genre. For my playing, I'm
                        definitely influenced by all forms of jazz that I've listened to, but
                        I've found my niche in what I call "old" jazz. I prefer to recreate
                        the notes of the past from the 1920s on through Artie Shaw (my
                        idol). That being said, I'm sure that some more modern harmonies
                        creep into my playing, just because I've listened to more modern
                        players. My sound is definitely not like the old players, but more
                        modern. Please feel free to contact me personally, if you are
                        interested in going to any of my concerts in the D.C. area!

                        Ben Redwine
                      • Robert Greenwood
                        -Patrice, you wrote: ... you won t force the African-American audience to support styles that were clearly related to segregation, prohibition, depression and
                        Message 11 of 30 , Mar 17, 2007
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                          -Patrice, you wrote:
                          "... you won't force the African-American audience to support styles that were clearly
                          related to
                          segregation, prohibition, depression and misery, and the most incredible
                          unequality - this is purely intellectual nostalgia which only wealthy
                          intellectual whites can afford, just like regretting the good old times of
                          hard work from sun to sun on the Mississippi Delta plantations which
                          produced such fascinating blues!"

                          I'm never sure what people mean when they link the jazz of the past with "segregation,
                          prohibition, depression and misery, and the most incredible unequality" It's true, of
                          course, to say that the musicians who produced the music had to live under these
                          intolerable conditions, but surely they produced music of such genius and beauty that it
                          represents an heroic transcendence of those conditions? Would it not rather be purely
                          "intellectual" for someone hearing, say, the Jelly Roll Morton Red Hot Peppers recordings,
                          or the Louis Hot Fives & Sevens, only to "hear" in them the evidence of segregation,
                          prohibition, depression and misery? I, for one, do not believe that anyone, without some
                          effort of will, like some whining adolescent determined to make themselves profoundly
                          miserable, could sincerely hear all that in the music. If they do, then this is yet another
                          example of white, middle class self-loathing and self-flagellation that surely dishonours
                          the music and the people who produced it.
                          Robert Greenwood
                        • Patrice Champarou
                          ... From: Robert Greenwood To: Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 7:45 PM Subject: [RedHotJazz]
                          Message 12 of 30 , Mar 17, 2007
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                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Robert Greenwood" <robertgreenwood_54uk@...>
                            To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 7:45 PM
                            Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: When did Jazz die?


                            > -Patrice, you wrote:
                            > "... you won't force the African-American audience to support styles that
                            > were clearly
                            > related to
                            > segregation, prohibition, depression and misery, and the most incredible
                            > unequality - this is purely intellectual nostalgia which only wealthy
                            > intellectual whites can afford, just like regretting the good old times of
                            > hard work from sun to sun on the Mississippi Delta plantations which
                            > produced such fascinating blues!"
                            >
                            > I'm never sure what people mean when they link the jazz of the past with
                            > "segregation,
                            > prohibition, depression and misery, and the most incredible unequality"
                            > It's true, of
                            > course, to say that the musicians who produced the music had to live under
                            > these
                            > intolerable conditions, but surely they produced music of such genius and
                            > beauty that it
                            > represents an heroic transcendence of those conditions? Would it not
                            > rather be purely
                            > "intellectual" for someone hearing, say, the Jelly Roll Morton Red Hot
                            > Peppers recordings,
                            > or the Louis Hot Fives & Sevens, only to "hear" in them the evidence of
                            > segregation,
                            > prohibition, depression and misery? I, for one, do not believe that
                            > anyone, without some
                            > effort of will, like some whining adolescent determined to make themselves
                            > profoundly
                            > miserable, could sincerely hear all that in the music. If they do, then
                            > this is yet another
                            > example of white, middle class self-loathing and self-flagellation that
                            > surely dishonours
                            > the music and the people who produced it.
                            > Robert Greenwood

                            Hum! Did I ever say that the music itself expressed anything of the kind???

                            I don't even think it was "transcending" everyday life by any means other
                            than being purely recreative, efficient for dancers, and usually joyful. I
                            just meant that, whatever its instant meaning, music was always "dated" and
                            that the memory of *that* past was no convincing reason for the colored
                            audience to hold on to what musicologists consider as their necessary
                            heritage.

                            I could go on with the serious case of young ladies who dress up in the
                            1920's fashion and do some role-playing, complaining that morals and
                            elegance vanished as soon as the Beatles issued their first single while
                            everything was so perfect in a period of time they never knew... but I'd
                            rather not.

                            P.
                          • spacelights
                            I feel that genre labels should be used for convenient identification rather than strict definition. Each piece of music--whether recorded or live --is a
                            Message 13 of 30 , Mar 17, 2007
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                              I feel that genre labels should be used for convenient identification
                              rather than strict definition. Each piece of music--whether recorded
                              or "live"--is a unique entity, so I think it's important not to
                              over-generalize. I subscribe to Morton's view that jazz is a style.
                              As such, it would seem to have characteristics, rather than qualities
                              which define it absolutely. During our vintage period, there were
                              many relatively unorthodox jazz performances (by jugbands for example,
                              or in the case of Waller's pipe organ works).

                              "Modern jazz" may as well begin with Art Tatum's solo piano sides of
                              1933-34. Tatum was a devotee of Fats Waller--and yet a huge influence
                              on Charlie Parker. I had thought that Parker's solos sounded like
                              Tatum solos transposed; eventually I met an artist who'd been friends
                              with Parker. He told me (unprompted) that during his early years,
                              Parker listened to lots of Bach and Art Tatum. The point is that the
                              chain of influences/evolution is, in a certain sense, unbroken.
                              Ellington also had a great deal to do with the bop "revolution,"
                              especially in his group with Jimmy Blanton and Ben Webster (the body
                              of Gillespie's "Salt Peanuts" is virtually identical to Duke's "Cotton
                              Tail," and both Gillespie and Parker played in Duke's band).

                              Regarding Parker's work, my experience has been almost entirely
                              mental, meaning that I tend to think "this man has mastered the
                              alto saxophone" but I don't feel much. For me, the "best" jazz
                              achieves a balance between heart and head, and the problem with much
                              modern jazz is that it's too much "head," not enough "heart" (perhaps
                              vice versa for certain "Free jazz"). Still, I do feel each piece
                              should be judged (if at all) on its own merits, and not by a
                              surrounding context, though it may otherwise enhance our appreciation.

                              John

                              ps The delineation of certain "eras" is relevant: I think primarily
                              the '20s (beginning with Prohibition and Mamie Smith's breakthrough,
                              ending with the stock market crash) or Prohibition itself (ending
                              prior to the commercial "Swing" era). The most important point of
                              division is indeed World War II: after the war, one sees a huge
                              difference throughout the cultural landscape, in literature, film, and
                              music. Perhaps a sublimated cynicism brought about by fear of atomic
                              power, although I blame commercial television for lowering aesthetic
                              standards in general (we won't discuss fluoridation)...
                            • Jon Noring
                              ... Many consider late 1929 as the end of the 1920 s jazz era since it coincides with the beginning of the Great Depression. But I tend to view that as
                              Message 14 of 30 , Mar 17, 2007
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                                John wrote:

                                > ps The delineation of certain "eras" is relevant: I think primarily
                                > the '20s (beginning with Prohibition and Mamie Smith's breakthrough,
                                > ending with the stock market crash) or Prohibition itself (ending
                                > prior to the commercial "Swing" era). The most important point of
                                > division is indeed World War II: after the war, one sees a huge
                                > difference throughout the cultural landscape, in literature, film, and
                                > music. Perhaps a sublimated cynicism brought about by fear of atomic
                                > power, although I blame commercial television for lowering aesthetic
                                > standards in general (we won't discuss fluoridation)...

                                Many consider late 1929 as the end of the 1920's jazz era since it
                                coincides with the beginning of the Great Depression.

                                But I tend to view that as arbitrary. I think the real dividing line,
                                which is fuzzy of course, to be the beginning of 1933. We do see some
                                "proto-swing" in the 1930-32 era (mostly the "big band" black jazz
                                orchestras, such as Duke Ellington). But by and large I see the
                                1930-32 recordings to be a more sophisticated form of 1920's jazz.

                                Certainly the move to "modern jazz" starting in the mid 40's is
                                probably a bigger jump in jazz than from the 1920's to classic swing,
                                but the jump from the 1920's sound to swing is also a quite major
                                jump that to me is quite noticeable.

                                In my opinion, of course.

                                Jon


                                p.s., this is why I think Red Hot Jazz should set Dec. 31, 1932 as
                                the cutting-off point, not late 1929. Most of the 1930-32 Kardos, Joe
                                Haymes and Casa Loma Orchestra (e.g. "Alexander's Ragtime Band") have
                                that 1920's sound, with only a hint of the Swing era soon to come.
                              • Rick Hensel
                                You have but to listen to Billie Holliday sing, Strange Fruit , and Louis Armstrong sing, Black and Blue , to know that black jazz artists--despite the fair
                                Message 15 of 30 , Mar 17, 2007
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                                  You have but to listen to Billie Holliday sing, "Strange Fruit", and Louis Armstrong sing, "Black and Blue", to know that black jazz artists--despite the "fair look" given them by supporters such as John Hammond, Benny Goodman and Dave Brubek--felt the depression and segregation and outright bigotry surrounding them. It WAS prevelent in their day-to-day life, both at the turn of the century and much later; and to say that their music "transended" the conditions they lived with is well-intended and idealistic, but not very realistic.

                                  Rick Hensel



                                  Robert Greenwood <robertgreenwood_54uk@...> wrote:
                                  -Patrice, you wrote:
                                  "... you won't force the African-American audience to support styles that were clearly
                                  related to
                                  segregation, prohibition, depression and misery, and the most incredible
                                  unequality - this is purely intellectual nostalgia which only wealthy
                                  intellectual whites can afford, just like regretting the good old times of
                                  hard work from sun to sun on the Mississippi Delta plantations which
                                  produced such fascinating blues!"

                                  I'm never sure what people mean when they link the jazz of the past with "segregation,
                                  prohibition, depression and misery, and the most incredible unequality" It's true, of
                                  course, to say that the musicians who produced the music had to live under these
                                  intolerable conditions, but surely they produced music of such genius and beauty that it
                                  represents an heroic transcendence of those conditions? Would it not rather be purely
                                  "intellectual" for someone hearing, say, the Jelly Roll Morton Red Hot Peppers recordings,
                                  or the Louis Hot Fives & Sevens, only to "hear" in them the evidence of segregation,
                                  prohibition, depression and misery? I, for one, do not believe that anyone, without some
                                  effort of will, like some whining adolescent determined to make themselves profoundly
                                  miserable, could sincerely hear all that in the music. If they do, then this is yet another
                                  example of white, middle class self-loathing and self-flagellation that surely dishonours
                                  the music and the people who produced it.
                                  Robert Greenwood






                                  ---------------------------------
                                  Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
                                  in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Robert Greenwood
                                  You misunderstand the point I am making, Rick. Of course I am aware that black jazz artists like other black people felt the depression and segregation and
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Mar 18, 2007
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                                    You misunderstand the point I am making, Rick. Of course I am aware that black jazz artists
                                    like other black people felt the depression and segregation and outright bigotry surrounding
                                    them; in fact, they more than "felt" it, it dictated to a large degree their very conditions of
                                    existence and permeated their day-to-day lives, but they still made music of profound
                                    beauty. Your posting cites just two recordings. Do you mean to imply that when Billie sang
                                    When You're Smiling, or when Louis played Bessie Couldn't Help It, they were in denial of the
                                    segregation and outright bigotry that surrounded them?

                                    Robert Greenwood.
                                  • tommersl
                                    ... contain the ... Hi Patrice, the question is when Jazz died. It contained a suggestion but it is open for a discussion. ... consider as ... So everything
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Mar 18, 2007
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                                      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "Patrice Champarou"
                                      <patrice.champarou@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I am afraid I still do not understand the question (or did it
                                      contain the
                                      > reply already?)
                                      >

                                      Hi Patrice, the question is when Jazz died. It contained a suggestion
                                      but it is open for a discussion.

                                      > I suppose everyone is free to fix their own limits to what they
                                      consider as
                                      > real jazz,

                                      So everything can be real Jazz. A picture on the wall or a baby's cry.

                                      > and I guess there will be as many different replies as members on
                                      > this list. Some will even consider there is no real difference between
                                      > Lester Young and Archie Shepp, others will declare that jazz started
                                      dying
                                      > in the 30's (wasn't Morton's piece called "Dirty, Dirty, Dirty" a
                                      parody of
                                      > swing?) but I doubt this can lead us anywhere.

                                      Sure there are several views lets hear it!


                                      > This is no place for me to explain why I consider John Coltrane's
                                      Alabama as
                                      > a masterpiece or why Thelonious Monk is the one I would take to the
                                      desert
                                      > island.

                                      It doesn't need to be a Jazz in order to be a masterpiece. Speaking
                                      and evaluating from the Jazz point of view is interesting.

                                      > I reject the idea of "downgrading" just as much as the concept of
                                      > "progress" applied to music,

                                      Interesting, but the progress is what many critics over the years
                                      demanded. They didn't prove how often a music should "progress", but
                                      they wanted it to progress at their will otherwise it was out of date
                                      and something new was state of the art.

                                      > and if the original question concerned the
                                      > evolution of styles, I doubt that marketing purposes or the
                                      introduction of
                                      > long-playing recording by Blue Note played a greater part than what the
                                      > musicians wished to play and what the audience expected to hear.

                                      Blue Note that were looking for progress and bebop they got to a dead
                                      end in 1965 and sold themselves.


                                      > And as far as more and more jazz lovers turning to musicians of the
                                      past,
                                      > why complain? It is no-one's fault if there haven't been any Mortons
                                      or J.S.
                                      > Bachs for a while, it is just the way music changes - and you won't
                                      force
                                      > the African-American audience to support styles that were clearly
                                      related to
                                      > segregation, prohibition, depression and misery, and the most
                                      incredible
                                      > unequality - this is purely intellectual nostalgia which only wealthy
                                      > intellectual whites can afford, just like regretting the good old
                                      times of
                                      > hard work from sun to sun on the Mississippi Delta plantations which
                                      > produced such fascinating blues!
                                      >

                                      Here is a 1920's quote from Roger Pryor Dodge "Much as Jazz is
                                      supposed to dominate our modern music, it's really rare in it's pure
                                      state... The only feasible way to hear good jazz in quantity is
                                      through phonograph records"
                                      Now, can we say in 1926 he was talking about a purely intellectual
                                      nostalgia when he said in 1926 that the place to find real Jazz is on
                                      records? Or maybe we see a progress as he describes it in his article
                                      as Paul Whiteman syncopating the classics, in my words, a process of
                                      adding Jazz elements to Classical themes so it will "ring a bell" that
                                      it is Jazz but not contain really the Jazz art, like a Pavlov's Dog
                                      that hear the bell and think he is about to get a real meal.
                                      Tommersl
                                    • Howard Rye
                                      on 18/3/07 10:14, Robert Greenwood at robertgreenwood_54uk@yahoo.co.uk ... When the black man smiles in jazz, look for the sadness in his eyes Thus Langston
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Mar 18, 2007
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                                        on 18/3/07 10:14, Robert Greenwood at robertgreenwood_54uk@...
                                        wrote:

                                        >Your posting cites just two recordings. Do you mean to imply that when Billie
                                        >sang When You're Smiling, or when Louis played Bessie Couldn't Help It, they
                                        >were in denial of the segregation and outright bigotry that surrounded them?

                                        "When the black man smiles in jazz, look for the sadness in his eyes"

                                        Thus Langston Hughes, who knew a lot more about it than most of us. (And if
                                        anyone can provide me with an actual citation for this much quoted remark,
                                        I'd be glad if they would.)

                                        In any case this particular discussion seems to have gone off at a tangent.
                                        I took Patrice's original point to be not about the actual emotional content
                                        of the music, still less about how anyone should react to it now, but about
                                        how it was perceived by many later African-Americans, particularly in the
                                        1940s to 1970s.

                                        That this has rather dramatically changed in the last decade or so owes
                                        quite a lot to a man called Wynton Marsalis who has set about reclaiming the
                                        African-American musical past for the descendents of its creators....
                                        somewhat too ruthlessly for some tastes!

                                        Some quite serious attempts at restarting jazz history have been made. Try
                                        the albums under Wycliffe Gordon's name on Criss Cross Records, the piano
                                        solo recordings of Marcus Roberts, the several albums by Kermit Ruffins on
                                        Basin Street Records. Out of the Marsalis orbit, Howard Wiley's
                                        extraordinary album "Twenty-First Century Negro" on High Cotton is worth
                                        anyone's attention. (It would be even better if all three drummers who
                                        appear were as swinging as the best of the three.)

                                        Jazz "died" when its avant-garde decided that they didn't want to play for
                                        dancers any more. By so doing they flung away at least 80% of their ecomomic
                                        base and ensured that jazz would become a niche market. The swing-dance
                                        movement (which Wiley is a product of) has demonstrated that the process
                                        isn't necessarily irreversible. At any rate there is still (or again) some
                                        remarkably good music being produced.

                                        Frank Johnson in his book Australian Jazz Explosion rather pithily
                                        identifies two types of fool: Those who think something old is always good,
                                        and those who think something new is better. One of our problems is that
                                        since the 1940s so much of the jazz audience has consisted of one or other
                                        of these types! It has made it very difficult to sell innovative work which
                                        seeks to develop the jazz idiom rather than render it obsolete.

                                        Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
                                        howard@...
                                        Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
                                      • David N. Lewis
                                        My personal feeling is that, while Jazz is not altogether dead, it is really, really struggling. And of course I m talking about Jazz as a whole, not the
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Mar 18, 2007
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                                          My personal feeling is that, while Jazz is not altogether dead, it is
                                          really, really struggling. And of course I'm talking about Jazz as a
                                          whole, not the traditional Jazz we love, as for some reason that has
                                          always adapted to fit the dimensions of the audience that was willing
                                          to support it.
                                          The current museum environment for Jazz, and its commercial, "smooth"
                                          counterpart, seems an uncomfortable fit for the music. The continued
                                          exploration of jazz in the historical context of racial injustice is
                                          likewise serving to kill it. Even from the beginning it appears that
                                          there was a lot of involvement of Italian and Jewish musicians in
                                          Jazz, who had intolerance of their own to bear, but are not getting a
                                          lot of love from jazz "scholars," due to a kind of prejudice that
                                          shuts them (the Jewish and Italian musicians) out of the history.
                                          Jazz was a great social revolution, but it is not about racial
                                          injustice; it is about freedom and different cultures from within the
                                          United States learning to get along.
                                          Albert Ayler, if anything, helped to revive ultra-traditional jazz
                                          within a new framework - his fat, wobbly tone is closer to the sound
                                          of really early jazz musicians than most others of his era. So I
                                          don't think Free Jazz killed Jazz. But we are closing in on about 30
                                          years since there were any significant stylistic developments in
                                          Jazz. Commercially, Wynton Marsalis and the smooth stuff are both in
                                          the toilet from the standpoint of the major record companies, and I'm
                                          surprised that they continue to support it. There have been no "Take
                                          Five"s or "Kind of Blue"s for a long time at this point.
                                          Also, audiences are strangely divided as to what they will go for in
                                          terms of Jazz. I was in contact recently with a New York based group
                                          that has a female singer and plays slightly out, freeform jazz within
                                          a loose framework. They were getting nowhere fast trying to pitch
                                          their album, and I suggested that they try some other labels more
                                          oriented towards avant-garde classical and improvised music. They
                                          thanked me and wrote "We try to play at jazz gigs, but that's not our
                                          audience - they hate us! We really do much better at the arty Gallery
                                          type shows and with people who like kind of off the wall classical
                                          music."
                                          So at this point, Jazz is not developing forward because cultural
                                          philistines have backed it into a corner. Will it get out? What's the
                                          use of it if the very definition of what "Jazz" is is proscribed by a
                                          few very selfish "experts" who are utilizing its legacy to pursue a
                                          social agenda?
                                          Just my thoughts,

                                          Uncle Dave Lewis
                                        • Rick Hensel
                                          My sincere apologies for coming in on the middle of something and misunderstanding. It was getting off the point of discussion, indeed; and I did not mean to
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Mar 18, 2007
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                                            My sincere apologies for coming in on the middle of something and misunderstanding. It was getting off the point of discussion, indeed; and I did not mean to be too critical of anyone, just lending a thought to the discussion as a way to "dive in" to things, being new.

                                            I wonder what year the question among march music enthusiasts ("When did March Music die?") first took place? (lol)



                                            "David N. Lewis" <udtv@...> wrote:
                                            My personal feeling is that, while Jazz is not altogether dead, it is
                                            really, really struggling. And of course I'm talking about Jazz as a
                                            whole, not the traditional Jazz we love, as for some reason that has
                                            always adapted to fit the dimensions of the audience that was willing
                                            to support it.
                                            The current museum environment for Jazz, and its commercial, "smooth"
                                            counterpart, seems an uncomfortable fit for the music. The continued
                                            exploration of jazz in the historical context of racial injustice is
                                            likewise serving to kill it. Even from the beginning it appears that
                                            there was a lot of involvement of Italian and Jewish musicians in
                                            Jazz, who had intolerance of their own to bear, but are not getting a
                                            lot of love from jazz "scholars," due to a kind of prejudice that
                                            shuts them (the Jewish and Italian musicians) out of the history.
                                            Jazz was a great social revolution, but it is not about racial
                                            injustice; it is about freedom and different cultures from within the
                                            United States learning to get along.
                                            Albert Ayler, if anything, helped to revive ultra-traditional jazz
                                            within a new framework - his fat, wobbly tone is closer to the sound
                                            of really early jazz musicians than most others of his era. So I
                                            don't think Free Jazz killed Jazz. But we are closing in on about 30
                                            years since there were any significant stylistic developments in
                                            Jazz. Commercially, Wynton Marsalis and the smooth stuff are both in
                                            the toilet from the standpoint of the major record companies, and I'm
                                            surprised that they continue to support it. There have been no "Take
                                            Five"s or "Kind of Blue"s for a long time at this point.
                                            Also, audiences are strangely divided as to what they will go for in
                                            terms of Jazz. I was in contact recently with a New York based group
                                            that has a female singer and plays slightly out, freeform jazz within
                                            a loose framework. They were getting nowhere fast trying to pitch
                                            their album, and I suggested that they try some other labels more
                                            oriented towards avant-garde classical and improvised music. They
                                            thanked me and wrote "We try to play at jazz gigs, but that's not our
                                            audience - they hate us! We really do much better at the arty Gallery
                                            type shows and with people who like kind of off the wall classical
                                            music."
                                            So at this point, Jazz is not developing forward because cultural
                                            philistines have backed it into a corner. Will it get out? What's the
                                            use of it if the very definition of what "Jazz" is is proscribed by a
                                            few very selfish "experts" who are utilizing its legacy to pursue a
                                            social agenda?
                                            Just my thoughts,

                                            Uncle Dave Lewis






                                            ---------------------------------
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                                            Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it out.

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Patrice Champarou
                                            ... From: Rick Hensel To: Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: When did Jazz
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Mar 18, 2007
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                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: "Rick Hensel" <nomcaller@...>
                                              To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 3:38 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: When did Jazz die?


                                              > My sincere apologies for coming in on the middle of something and
                                              > misunderstanding. It was getting off the point of discussion, indeed; and
                                              > I did not mean to be too critical of anyone, just lending a thought to the
                                              > discussion as a way to "dive in" to things, being new.

                                              No problem, I think I was responsible for the sub-topic in the first place
                                              because some sentence by Tommer (and his subsequent explanations) seemed to
                                              relate his views upon the "death of jazz" to the old discussion about
                                              "Whites stealing from Blacks". I had a loooong reply to this, with more
                                              questions about what can "pure jazz" possibly be, or didn't "hot" mean
                                              "contemporary" some decades before it started meaning old-fashioned... but
                                              I'll keep this for the time being, as other aspects seem much more
                                              interesting.

                                              Patrice

                                              > I wonder what year the question among march music enthusiasts ("When did
                                              > March Music die?") first took place? (lol)
                                              >

                                              Is the reply "every year on April 1st"? ;-)
                                            • Robert Greenwood
                                              Howard wrote: Frank Johnson in his book Australian Jazz Explosion rather pithily identifies two types of fool: Those who think something old is always good,
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Mar 19, 2007
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                                                Howard wrote:
                                                "Frank Johnson in his book Australian Jazz Explosion rather pithily
                                                identifies two types of fool: Those who think something old is always
                                                good,
                                                and those who think something new is better. One of our problems is
                                                that
                                                since the 1940s so much of the jazz audience has consisted of one or
                                                other
                                                of these types! It has made it very difficult to sell innovative work
                                                which
                                                seeks to develop the jazz idiom rather than render it obsolete."

                                                Too true!

                                                "Jazz `died' when its avant-garde decided that they didn't want to
                                                play for
                                                dancers any more. By so doing they flung away at least 80% of their
                                                economic
                                                base and ensured that jazz would become a niche market."

                                                Something similar may be said about the well-intentioned project
                                                known as Preservation Hall. Sadly, this laudable attempt to provide
                                                some employment for those musicians still playing the older styles of
                                                New Orleans music meant (among many other more positive things)
                                                removing those musicians from their accustomed audiences, for whom
                                                they provided a music to dance and socialise to, and placing them in
                                                front of serried rows of tourists and admirers. Kid Thomas Valentine
                                                is said once to have remarked about the punters at Pres Hall: "They
                                                just sit there an' stare at yer!" The inescapable paradox may well be
                                                that the older styles died out precisely because of an attempt to
                                                preserve them, but no doubt it's much more complicated than that.
                                                Robert Greenwood.
                                              • Tony Standish
                                                Robert Greenwood s remarks about Preservation Hall are astute. However. The great bluesmen were somewhat diminished when they were discovered by either or
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Mar 19, 2007
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                                                  Robert Greenwood's remarks about Preservation Hall are astute.
                                                  However.
                                                  The great bluesmen were somewhat diminished when they were "discovered" by
                                                  either or the college crowd in the U.S. or the Trad mob in Europe. But it
                                                  was still a mind-blowing experience to hear Muddy Waters at the Roundhouse
                                                  with Cyril Davies on harp, or Hooker in Manchester, or Rosetta Tharpe
                                                  soaring witht the Barber band, or Speckled Red playing his beautiful blues
                                                  at 100 Oxford Street, or Little Brother complaining about playing "Vicksburg
                                                  Blues" and then giving you goose bumps by playing it. Loads of other
                                                  examples are available - Memphis Slim, Champion Jack, Otis Spann, the Ward
                                                  Singers, Sonny and Brownie.
                                                  The guys just played more or less what they always played, but took the
                                                  desires of the new audiences into consideration..
                                                  Same thing in New Orleans. The Kid Thomas band played exactly the same style
                                                  at Larry Borenstein's Studio (later sadly renamed Preservation Hall) as they
                                                  did for dancing at the Moulin Rouge, over the river, for a traditional,
                                                  local, white crowd, who came to dance, to have a beer, and spend just an
                                                  ordinary night out. The style of the band did not change; the repertoire
                                                  did.
                                                  I seem to remember Gene Williams had a vivid musical moment 'way back when
                                                  he heard the Ory band playing pop tunes and waltzes in the same style that
                                                  they used for "Muskrat Ramble" and "Tiger Rag".
                                                  All of whuch leads us to when did jazz die.
                                                  Well, it died when we who chanced upon it, decided that what we liked about
                                                  it had disappeared. I've got a mate who discoverd jazz when he heard Gerry
                                                  Mulligana & Chet, others I know love "hot dance" recorded between 1920 and
                                                  1930; I even realise that there are people out there who think jazz was born
                                                  at Minton's and who don't like Louis Armstrong.
                                                  Me? Well, Howards remarks about dancing were also pretty astute. If you
                                                  don't want to dance, don't bother. There is no higher plane than leaping
                                                  around, out of control, to a good Dixie band in full flight.
                                                  That bloody Frank Johnson!
                                                  He, tooo, was a very astute man. An ordinary trumpet player who lead one of
                                                  the great Australia jazz bands, and they nearly always played for dancing!.
                                                  And he was dead right about the Fools!
                                                  Tony Standish



                                                  .----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: "Robert Greenwood" <robertgreenwood_54uk@...>
                                                  To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 9:56 PM
                                                  Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: When did Jazz die?


                                                  > Howard wrote:
                                                  > "Frank Johnson in his book Australian Jazz Explosion rather pithily
                                                  > identifies two types of fool: Those who think something old is always
                                                  > good,
                                                  > and those who think something new is better. One of our problems is
                                                  > that
                                                  > since the 1940s so much of the jazz audience has consisted of one or
                                                  > other
                                                  > of these types! It has made it very difficult to sell innovative work
                                                  > which
                                                  > seeks to develop the jazz idiom rather than render it obsolete."
                                                  >
                                                  > Too true!
                                                  >
                                                  > "Jazz `died' when its avant-garde decided that they didn't want to
                                                  > play for
                                                  > dancers any more. By so doing they flung away at least 80% of their
                                                  > economic
                                                  > base and ensured that jazz would become a niche market."
                                                  >
                                                  > Something similar may be said about the well-intentioned project
                                                  > known as Preservation Hall. Sadly, this laudable attempt to provide
                                                  > some employment for those musicians still playing the older styles of
                                                  > New Orleans music meant (among many other more positive things)
                                                  > removing those musicians from their accustomed audiences, for whom
                                                  > they provided a music to dance and socialise to, and placing them in
                                                  > front of serried rows of tourists and admirers. Kid Thomas Valentine
                                                  > is said once to have remarked about the punters at Pres Hall: "They
                                                  > just sit there an' stare at yer!" The inescapable paradox may well be
                                                  > that the older styles died out precisely because of an attempt to
                                                  > preserve them, but no doubt it's much more complicated than that.
                                                  > Robert Greenwood.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                • Robert Greenwood
                                                  I think rather that Preservation Hall was more a symptom than a cause of the older styles dying out. It opened once the older venues started to close down and
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Mar 19, 2007
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                                                    I think rather that Preservation Hall was more a symptom than a cause
                                                    of the older styles dying out. It opened once the older venues
                                                    started to close down and once live music for dancing began to be
                                                    replaced by dancing and socialising to recorded music. I suspect,
                                                    however, that the people who danced to Billie & Dede at Luthjens, or
                                                    who danced to Kid Thomas's band at Speck's Moulin Rouge or the
                                                    Westwego Fireman's Hall did not start in their droves to attend
                                                    sessions at Preservation Hall. The Hall seems to have opened to
                                                    fulfil the need of visiting and expatriate European musicians to hear
                                                    New Orleans musicians playing live, and to provide an alternative for
                                                    tourists to the brasher sounds of Bourbon Street. The opening of the
                                                    Hall also brought New Orleans music to the belated attention of
                                                    record labels such as Atlantic and Riverside. Its main functions seem
                                                    to have been educational; didactic rather than functional. Deprived
                                                    of its main function (to supply music for dancing), the older style
                                                    of New Orleans music inevitably died out.
                                                    I too treasure memories of hearing some of the older musicians in
                                                    London, including Little Brother Montgomery. He played at 100 Oxford
                                                    Street and closed the evening with a version of Rock Around the Clock
                                                    (just to make the purist hackles rise). I heard Kid Thomas Valentine
                                                    one night in 1976 playing with Mike Casimir's New Iberia Stompers at
                                                    the Southampton Arms, a pub opposite Mornington Crescent underground
                                                    station. The selection of tunes was predictable (Tiger Rag & The
                                                    Saints, among others) and, while it was great to hear him, I'm sure I
                                                    was not alone in hoping he would play a waltz or a country & western
                                                    tune as he would have done at Speck's Moulin Rouge or the Westwego
                                                    Fireman's Hall…
                                                    Robert Greenwood
                                                  • PDQBlues@aol.com
                                                    Although I have little to add to this tremendously interesting discussions on such an abstract concept of when did Jazz die, I did wish to thank those who
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Mar 19, 2007
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                                                      Although I have little to add to this tremendously interesting discussions on
                                                      such an abstract concept of "when did Jazz die," I did wish to thank those
                                                      who have added their opinions to the discussion.

                                                      I now forget who wrote something to the effect that Jazz died when some well
                                                      meaning people decided to preserve it. There may be no more accurate and
                                                      highly astute observation that I have heard in a very long time. I do agree to
                                                      a point with Robert Greenwood that "Preservation Hall was more a symptom than
                                                      a cause of the older styles dying out," and there is much to be said about
                                                      attempting to "freeze and preserve" feelings. And the thing to say is that you
                                                      cannot successfully accomplish maintaining a feeling in a healthy manner any
                                                      more than you can capture the wind. To put the music under a looking glass or
                                                      bell jar is to job it of feeling, which ultimately will kill it.

                                                      Like all art forms, Jazz requires feelings and evokes feelings. And it is
                                                      those feelings that makes the music live and alive. But like any life form,
                                                      even art must evolve, progress, change with the human elements or parish from
                                                      the face of the earth. And like languages, the words and phrasings of Jazz
                                                      will change even if the basic structure is maintain. Why is Latin a dead
                                                      language even if it's still taught in school? It's dead because it is being
                                                      artificially preserved. It can no longer change, evolve or reflect the feelings
                                                      of its people. And that is so true about any music, including Jazz. Like
                                                      the wind, that very attempt to hold onto it and somehow the preserve the exact
                                                      feelings it can evoke will lead to its death.

                                                      I am a tremendous fan of the pre-1934 Jazz music, and have been 'religiously'
                                                      listening to the recoding for over 35 years now. And I am also a big fan of
                                                      many of the newer bands that play in the styles of the older Jazz, for which
                                                      I believe I recognized several of the artists' names here on this list who
                                                      have made such recording for labels like Stomp Off. Bands, such as the
                                                      Barrelhouse Jazzband, South Frisco Jazz Band, Peruna Jazzmen, Kustbandet and many of
                                                      the Keith Nichols groups, to name but a few. The ones of these newer bands
                                                      that I enjoy best are the ones that, although they play in an older style, they
                                                      make no absolute attempt to play note by note the music that has been
                                                      preserved on the recordings. That is, they allow their own emotions to be felt
                                                      within that music, for which keeps the music alive.

                                                      Again, I thank all of you for such a wonderfully intelligent conversation
                                                      that got me to respond.

                                                      Paul



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                                                    • Robert Greenwood
                                                      Why is Latin a dead ... is being ... I know this is veering dangerously close to being off-topic, but Latin is not a dead language. Without some understanding
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Mar 20, 2007
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                                                        Why is Latin a dead
                                                        > language even if it's still taught in school? It's dead because it
                                                        is being
                                                        > artificially preserved.

                                                        I know this is veering dangerously close to being off-topic, but Latin
                                                        is not a dead language. Without some understanding of Latin, you
                                                        (probably) have a limited understanding of your own language. Does
                                                        anyone fancy extending the metaphor to the benefits that come from a
                                                        knowledge of earlier jazz forms?

                                                        Robert Greenwood
                                                        (who, sadly, was never taught Latin at school)
                                                      • Tony Standish
                                                        Despite having the dubious distinction of once being the only one in my class to pass the Latin exam (51 out of 100!), all that remained were random bits such
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Mar 20, 2007
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                                                          Despite having the dubious distinction of once being the only one in my
                                                          class to pass the Latin exam (51 out of 100!), all that remained were random
                                                          bits such as "Brittania insula est" and the ability to read a union banner
                                                          in Canada many years later that read "Nil illegitemae carborundum". Still, I
                                                          suppose I got something out of years of studying Latin, because despite my
                                                          success with the Dead Language, I failed most other subjects. My Big Pass in
                                                          Latin at age fourteen just coincided with my discovery of jazz. Not just the
                                                          stuff we listened to on the radio ("March of the Bobcats", "Well get it",
                                                          "Song of India", "Hey ba ba re bop", "Golden Wedding") but Bunk's "One Sweet
                                                          Letter From You" which, played on a local radio programme one Saturday
                                                          afternoon, just exploded in my brain and set me on a course that has lasted
                                                          over half a century.
                                                          Tony Standish
                                                          (Failed altar boy)
                                                          But I agree with Robert - we're getting a bit off-topic, here!
                                                          Anyone out there got any material on Guy Kelly?
                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                          From: "Robert Greenwood" <robertgreenwood_54uk@...>
                                                          To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                                                          Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 9:48 PM
                                                          Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: When did Jazz die?


                                                          > Why is Latin a dead
                                                          >> language even if it's still taught in school? It's dead because it
                                                          > is being
                                                          >> artificially preserved.
                                                          >
                                                          > I know this is veering dangerously close to being off-topic, but Latin
                                                          > is not a dead language. Without some understanding of Latin, you
                                                          > (probably) have a limited understanding of your own language. Does
                                                          > anyone fancy extending the metaphor to the benefits that come from a
                                                          > knowledge of earlier jazz forms?
                                                          >
                                                          > Robert Greenwood
                                                          > (who, sadly, was never taught Latin at school)
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                        • Robert Greenwood
                                                          As well as making sure that my daughter heard plenty of jazz in her infant years (she even heard Ken Colyer in, or, at least, from, the womb while attending,
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Mar 20, 2007
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                                                            As well as making sure that my daughter heard plenty of jazz in her
                                                            infant years (she even heard Ken Colyer in, or, at least, from, the
                                                            womb while attending, in utero, a 100 Club gig four months before she
                                                            was born)(her mother thought she was too young to go to a jazz club
                                                            on her own, so she went with her) I made sure that she studied Latin
                                                            at her grammar school. She's a second year law student now so it has
                                                            come in useful. But on to Guy Kelly, about whose life very little is
                                                            known, only to stray off-topic again. In the late 1940s Albert
                                                            McCarthy edited two editions of the PL Yearbook of Jazz (one of them
                                                            might have been called the PL Jazzbook). PL stood for Poetry London,
                                                            a journal edited by a Sri Lankan called Tambimuttu. One contributor
                                                            was the poet Nicholas Moore who once published a book called All the
                                                            Little Jersey Cows: Poems by Guy Kelly. Several years ago I wrote to
                                                            Moore asking about this, and he replied saying that he had adopted
                                                            the name Guy Kelly for this one book since it was published by a
                                                            publisher other than PL, to whom he was then under contract. As the
                                                            only poet in the UK then interested in jazz (this was several years
                                                            before Larkin & Amis) he used Kelly's name as a clue to the real
                                                            identity of the author of the collection. The PL books contained much
                                                            worthwhile material including an early essay on the blues by Max
                                                            Jones and pieces by Frederick Ramsey and Langston Hughes. All of
                                                            which tells us nothing about Guy Kelly…
                                                            Robert Greenwood.
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