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Re: [RedHotJazz] Re: NEW KING OLIVER REISSUE

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  • Michael Rader
    David, Could you please provide suggestions *which* tracks are best to sample the improvement. As I ve said before, most computers don t provide really good
    Message 1 of 25 , Nov 6, 2006
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      David,

      Could you please provide suggestions *which* tracks are best to sample the improvement. As I've said before, most computers don't provide really good listening experience and a comparison (e.g. with the Retrieval) would be most revealing if it were possible to go directly to those tracks which actually come from originals rather than the 1950s dubs used for the Retrieval.

      If you've been collecting for any length of time, you grow wary of claims made for reissues.

      Michael Rader

      Karlsruhe, Germany

      >
      > Please explore the Archeophone site a little further and read the
      > comments from Dan Morgenstern, George Avakian and others AND even
      > better -- listen to the examples provided.
      >
      > Best
      >
      > David Sager

      _______________________________________________________________________
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    • David Brown
      For instance. There is only one copy of Gennett 5275 ( Workingman/Zulus ) extant. Who owns this and was it made available for re-mastering or even
      Message 2 of 25 , Nov 6, 2006
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        For instance. There is only one copy of Gennett 5275 ( Workingman/Zulus )
        extant.

        Who owns this and was it made available for re-mastering or even 'mastering'
        ?


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • davidsager1958
        Hi Michael The samples, I think, are all representative and consistent, so I don t think that any one particular is better than another. Do, however, sample
        Message 3 of 25 , Nov 7, 2006
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          Hi Michael

          The samples, I think, are all representative and consistent, so I
          don't think that any one particular is better than another.

          Do, however, sample "Krooked Blues" -- Joe Oliver's blues style is so
          very evident on this one as he is rather exposed.

          Perhaps if you play a bit of the Retrieval on your computer speakers
          and then try a few samples, then you can get an idea...or perhaps
          rote your computer through your stereo system...

          David


          RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@...> wrote:
          >
          > David,
          >
          > Could you please provide suggestions *which* tracks are best to
          sample the improvement. As I've said before, most computers don't
          provide really good listening experience and a comparison (e.g. with
          the Retrieval) would be most revealing if it were possible to go
          directly to those tracks which actually come from originals rather
          than the 1950s dubs used for the Retrieval.
          >
          > If you've been collecting for any length of time, you grow wary of
          claims made for reissues.
          >
          > Michael Rader
          >
          > Karlsruhe, Germany
          >
          > >
          > > Please explore the Archeophone site a little further and read the
          > > comments from Dan Morgenstern, George Avakian and others AND even
          > > better -- listen to the examples provided.
          > >
          > > Best
          > >
          > > David Sager
          >
          >
          ______________________________________________________________________
          _
          > Viren-Scan für Ihren PC! Jetzt für jeden. Sofort, online und
          kostenlos.
          > Gleich testen! http://www.pc-sicherheit.web.de/freescan/?mc=022222
          >
        • davidsager1958
          OKeh, I re-read your question and have a somewhat better answer... Krooked Blues as it turns out was one of the dubs that John R. T. had used on the
          Message 4 of 25 , Nov 7, 2006
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            OKeh, I re-read your question and have a somewhat better answer...

            "Krooked Blues" as it turns out was one of the dubs that John R. T.
            had used on the Retireval/King Jazz set. Therefore "Alligator Hop"
            was from a dub as well.

            I'll try and find out which others came from dubbed sources.



            In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > David,
            >
            > Could you please provide suggestions *which* tracks are best to
            sample the improvement. As I've said before, most computers don't
            provide really good listening experience and a comparison (e.g. with
            the Retrieval) would be most revealing if it were possible to go
            directly to those tracks which actually come from originals rather
            than the 1950s dubs used for the Retrieval.
            >
            > If you've been collecting for any length of time, you grow wary of
            claims made for reissues.
            >
            > Michael Rader
            >
            > Karlsruhe, Germany
            >
            > >
            > > Please explore the Archeophone site a little further and read the
            > > comments from Dan Morgenstern, George Avakian and others AND even
            > > better -- listen to the examples provided.
            > >
            > > Best
            > >
            > > David Sager
            >
            >
            ______________________________________________________________________
            _
            > Viren-Scan für Ihren PC! Jetzt für jeden. Sofort, online und
            kostenlos.
            > Gleich testen! http://www.pc-sicherheit.web.de/freescan/?mc=022222
            >
          • Patrice Champarou
            ... From: davidsager1958 To: Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 3:26 PM Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: NEW
            Message 5 of 25 , Nov 7, 2006
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              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "davidsager1958" <davidsager1958@...>
              To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 3:26 PM
              Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: NEW KING OLIVER REISSUE


              > OKeh, I re-read your question and have a somewhat better answer...

              ... but the previous one hasn't arrived yet! ;-(

              I'm sorry, David, the Yahoogroup server has strange delays, I cannot even
              remove the moderation feature because it hasn't shown your name yet!

              Patrice (creeping in the RHJ basement)
            • David Brown
              Having further investigated the Archeophone site I find my earlier question answered and that the copy of Gennett 5275 was used. However, the link in the text
              Message 6 of 25 , Nov 7, 2006
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                Having further investigated the Archeophone site I find my earlier question
                answered and that the copy of Gennett 5275 was used.

                However, the link in the text referring to Gennett 5275 plays the Okeh '
                Working Man ' --- confusing.

                The track list further down does indeed play the Gennett.

                The transcriptions cited as 'dubs' on the Retrieval -- ' Krooked' and
                'Alligator' -- even if so, are among the best on that issue and I cannot
                hear any improvement on the limited clip available from Archeophone.

                But PC soundstream never is a fair test but generally the Archeophone sound
                seems good but then so is the Retrieval.




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • stewmclean
                Many thanks for the inf. Sue,sounds like it s worth while adding the set to the collcetion.Just to hear anything new by Johnny Dodds would make it money well
                Message 7 of 25 , Nov 8, 2006
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                  Many thanks for the inf. Sue,sounds like it's worth while
                  adding the set to the collcetion.Just to hear anything new by Johnny
                  Dodds would make it money well spent.
                  Stewart
                  --------------------------------------------------------
                  --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, loerchen2@... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Well, I just got my copy today (thanks, David!) and it is
                  everything I hoped
                  > it would be. I'm amazed at the clarity and balance of the
                  music. Best of
                  > all, I just discovered some Johnny Dodds riffs that I've never
                  heard before,
                  > and the liner notes are excellent. This is a keeper!
                  >
                  > Sue
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • David Brown
                  Sue What side are the newly discovered Dodds riffs on ? I cannot find timings for the Archeophone, can anybody oblige ? I m interested in what pitch
                  Message 8 of 25 , Nov 8, 2006
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                    Sue

                    What side are the newly discovered Dodds riffs on ?

                    I cannot find timings for the Archeophone, can anybody oblige ?

                    I'm interested in what pitch 'corrections' have been made v.v. the
                    Retrieval.

                    Dave




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Hugh Crozier
                    Sorry - I ve missed something here. What is this about newly discovered Dodds riffs? Being a huge fan I would love to hear them. Hugh ... From: David Brown
                    Message 9 of 25 , Nov 9, 2006
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                      Sorry - I've missed something here. What is this about newly discovered Dodds riffs? Being a huge fan I would love to hear them.

                      Hugh


                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
                      To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, 9 November, 2006 7:51:31 AM
                      Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: NEW KING OLIVER REISSUE

                      Sue

                      What side are the newly discovered Dodds riffs on ?

                      I cannot find timings for the Archeophone, can anybody oblige ?

                      I'm interested in what pitch 'corrections' have been made v.v. the
                      Retrieval.

                      Dave

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                      Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • David Brown
                      David implied that the King Jazz and Retrieval sets are synonymous. This never was so and I ve just relistened. The Retrieval is far far superior. More body,
                      Message 10 of 25 , Nov 9, 2006
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                        David implied that the King Jazz and Retrieval sets are synonymous. This
                        never was so and I've just relistened. The Retrieval is far far superior.
                        More body, resonance, space, detail and dynamics, albeit at the acceptable
                        cost of more surface.

                        If indeed these are from the same JRT tape --- and they certainly sound as
                        if from the same copies -- and assuming that no further filtering
                        /equalising etc, digital or otherwise, was imposed by King Jazz -- ( and I
                        suspect it was ) --then this indicates just how influential the actual
                        digitalising process is.


                        Dave




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • spacelights
                        ... superior. ... acceptable ... sound as ... and I ... The implication perhaps wasn t intentional, but the use of the singular word set could cause someone
                        Message 11 of 25 , Nov 10, 2006
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                          --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > David implied that the King Jazz and Retrieval sets are synonymous. This
                          > never was so and I've just relistened. The Retrieval is far far
                          superior.
                          > More body, resonance, space, detail and dynamics, albeit at the
                          acceptable
                          > cost of more surface.
                          >
                          > If indeed these are from the same JRT tape --- and they certainly
                          sound as
                          > if from the same copies -- and assuming that no further filtering
                          > /equalising etc, digital or otherwise, was imposed by King Jazz -- (
                          and I
                          > suspect it was ) --then this indicates just how influential the actual
                          > digitalising process is.

                          The implication perhaps wasn't intentional, but the use of the
                          singular word "set" could cause someone to think the two CDs were the
                          same...

                          I've noticed a somewhat similar dichotomy between King Jazz and
                          Retrieval CD issues of Morton's 1923-1924 solos, which I'm guessing
                          came from identical transfers. King Jazz does have more surface
                          noise, and the sound varies a bit from track to track. In a few
                          cases, this may provide a greater opportunity for equalization "to
                          taste," at the lisener's discretion. I like the character of the
                          Retrieval sound, which seems more uniform--usually something achieved
                          through mastering.

                          King Jazz credits John R.T. for "Transfers," Cesar Garcia for
                          "Pre-mastering Re-recording," and Digipro for "DAT Mastering."
                          Retrieval simply credits John R.T. with "Audio Restoration."

                          John
                        • davidsager1958
                          Hello Friends, John R. T. told someone...I cannot recall who it was now, that both King Jazz and Retrieval were from the same tapes. I agree that the
                          Message 12 of 25 , Nov 10, 2006
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                            Hello Friends,

                            John R. T. told someone...I cannot recall who it was now, that both
                            King Jazz and Retrieval were from the same tapes. I agree that the
                            Retrieval set sounds better than the King Jazz.

                            I'll never forget the one time I visited John and he played me the
                            tape of his restoration of Oliver's "Mandy Lee Blues" -- it was
                            thrilling! He was a brilliant man.

                            David

                            --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "spacelights" <spacelights@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > David implied that the King Jazz and Retrieval sets are
                            synonymous. This
                            > > never was so and I've just relistened. The Retrieval is far far
                            > superior.
                            > > More body, resonance, space, detail and dynamics, albeit at the
                            > acceptable
                            > > cost of more surface.
                            > >
                            > > If indeed these are from the same JRT tape --- and they certainly
                            > sound as
                            > > if from the same copies -- and assuming that no further filtering
                            > > /equalising etc, digital or otherwise, was imposed by King Jazz --
                            (
                            > and I
                            > > suspect it was ) --then this indicates just how influential the
                            actual
                            > > digitalising process is.
                            >
                            > The implication perhaps wasn't intentional, but the use of the
                            > singular word "set" could cause someone to think the two CDs were
                            the
                            > same...
                            >
                            > I've noticed a somewhat similar dichotomy between King Jazz and
                            > Retrieval CD issues of Morton's 1923-1924 solos, which I'm guessing
                            > came from identical transfers. King Jazz does have more surface
                            > noise, and the sound varies a bit from track to track. In a few
                            > cases, this may provide a greater opportunity for equalization "to
                            > taste," at the lisener's discretion. I like the character of the
                            > Retrieval sound, which seems more uniform--usually something
                            achieved
                            > through mastering.
                            >
                            > King Jazz credits John R.T. for "Transfers," Cesar Garcia for
                            > "Pre-mastering Re-recording," and Digipro for "DAT Mastering."
                            > Retrieval simply credits John R.T. with "Audio Restoration."
                            >
                            > John
                            >
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