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Re: [RedHotJazz] NEW KING OLIVER REISSUE

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  • Michael Rader
    Discussions on the Red Hot Jazz list do not go unnoticed - little wonder now that we re approaching the 400 subscriber mark. As a result of the debate on the
    Message 1 of 25 , Nov 6, 2006
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      Discussions on the "Red Hot Jazz" list do not go unnoticed - little wonder now that we're approaching the 400 subscriber mark. As a result of the debate on the new King Oliver set on Archeophone, I received an e-mail from Richard Martin, one of Archeophone's owners/producers. Richard attached an e-mail from engineer Doug Benson which throws light on the new production and confirms many things I speculated on in my own e-mail on the subject:


      " I'm not surprised that some collectors might have a somewhat 'glandular'
      reaction to the Oliver advertising-- it would be easy to assume that our
      claims are some kind of attack on the integrity or talent of John R. T. Davies.
      In actuality, John was a friend of mine, and the whole inspiration for this
      reissue came from an email that he sent to me in 2002. The quote below
      is taken from that email, and is in fact also included in my booklet notes for the project.

      <<In 2002 the late John R. T. Davies wrote to me: "I understand your
      disenchantment with reissues of the Oliver Creole Band. When I did them last
      time I took a different approach... rather than kill the surface or accent
      the two cornets, I attempted to rebuild the BAND. They're not beautiful (I
      didn't have access to originals of many) but at time of writing, that set is
      the best we have." I believe that this reissue approaches what John might
      have created with access to improved source material, and it would not exist
      without his guidance and encouragement.>>"

      As I said in my e-mail, the new release has gone back to source and uses fresh remasters of all the recordings.

      Doug Benson incidentally dedicated Volume 1 of the Hit of the Week recordings on Archeophone to the memory of John RT Davies.

      Michael Rader
      Karlsruhe,
      Germany



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    • davidsager1958
      I think I can clear up the confusion: This is in fact the first time in decades that all 37 titles by the Oliver 1923 band have been newly transferred and
      Message 2 of 25 , Nov 6, 2006
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        I think I can clear up the confusion:

        This is in fact the first time in decades that all 37 titles by the
        Oliver 1923 band have been newly transferred and remastered. The
        Retrieval set used a few dubbed titles plus some transfers that Mr.
        Davies did back in the 50s.

        Please explore the Archeophone site a little further and read the
        comments from Dan Morgenstern, George Avakian and others AND even
        better -- listen to the examples provided.

        Best

        David Sager


        -- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Hugh Crozier <jellyrollstomp@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > I share this opinion. I doubt if the JRT issue can be improved.
        >
        > Hugh
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message ----
        > From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
        > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Sunday, 5 November, 2006 9:36:39 AM
        > Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] NEW KING OLIVER REISSUE
        >
        > I baulk at the blurb --'first remastering for decades'
        >
        > The JRT Retrieval of 1995 was a profound revelation. Can this be
        bettered ?
        >
        > What source used for remastering ?
        >
        > What is non-invasive ?
        > .
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Send instant messages to your online friends
        http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • john schott
        Thanks for posting this - I imagine it s what many of us ASSUMED, on some level, but I appreciate it. ... From: Michael Rader To:
        Message 3 of 25 , Nov 6, 2006
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          Thanks for posting this - I imagine it's what many of us ASSUMED, on some
          level, but I appreciate it.

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Michael Rader" <Rader.Michael@...>
          To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 1:39 PM
          Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] NEW KING OLIVER REISSUE


          > Discussions on the "Red Hot Jazz" list do not go unnoticed - little wonder
          > now that we're approaching the 400 subscriber mark. As a result of the
          > debate on the new King Oliver set on Archeophone, I received an e-mail
          > from Richard Martin, one of Archeophone's owners/producers. Richard
          > attached an e-mail from engineer Doug Benson which throws light on the new
          > production and confirms many things I speculated on in my own e-mail on
          > the subject:
          >
          >
          > " I'm not surprised that some collectors might have a somewhat 'glandular'
          > reaction to the Oliver advertising-- it would be easy to assume that our
          > claims are some kind of attack on the integrity or talent of John R. T.
          > Davies.
          > In actuality, John was a friend of mine, and the whole inspiration for
          > this
          > reissue came from an email that he sent to me in 2002. The quote below
          > is taken from that email, and is in fact also included in my booklet notes
          > for the project.
          >
          > <<In 2002 the late John R. T. Davies wrote to me: "I understand your
          > disenchantment with reissues of the Oliver Creole Band. When I did them
          > last
          > time I took a different approach... rather than kill the surface or accent
          > the two cornets, I attempted to rebuild the BAND. They're not beautiful (I
          > didn't have access to originals of many) but at time of writing, that set
          > is
          > the best we have." I believe that this reissue approaches what John might
          > have created with access to improved source material, and it would not
          > exist
          > without his guidance and encouragement.>>"
          >
          > As I said in my e-mail, the new release has gone back to source and uses
          > fresh remasters of all the recordings.
          >
          > Doug Benson incidentally dedicated Volume 1 of the Hit of the Week
          > recordings on Archeophone to the memory of John RT Davies.
          >
          > Michael Rader
          > Karlsruhe,
          > Germany
        • loerchen2@aol.com
          Well, I just got my copy today (thanks, David!) and it is everything I hoped it would be. I m amazed at the clarity and balance of the music. Best of all,
          Message 4 of 25 , Nov 6, 2006
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            Well, I just got my copy today (thanks, David!) and it is everything I hoped
            it would be. I'm amazed at the clarity and balance of the music. Best of
            all, I just discovered some Johnny Dodds riffs that I've never heard before,
            and the liner notes are excellent. This is a keeper!

            Sue



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • spacelights
            In my opinion, the word remastered fosters confusion as well... If an album or collection has been remastered, this means the very same
            Message 5 of 25 , Nov 6, 2006
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              In my opinion, the word "remastered" fosters confusion as well... If
              an album or collection has been remastered, this means the very same
              source--collectively--was mastered once before. If these are indeed
              new transfers, then the disc is newly mastered, not remastered.

              --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "davidsager1958"
              <davidsager1958@...> wrote:
              >
              > I think I can clear up the confusion:
              >
              > This is in fact the first time in decades that all 37 titles by the
              > Oliver 1923 band have been newly transferred and remastered. The
              > Retrieval set used a few dubbed titles plus some transfers that Mr.
              > Davies did back in the 50s.
            • Michael Rader
              David, Could you please provide suggestions *which* tracks are best to sample the improvement. As I ve said before, most computers don t provide really good
              Message 6 of 25 , Nov 6, 2006
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                David,

                Could you please provide suggestions *which* tracks are best to sample the improvement. As I've said before, most computers don't provide really good listening experience and a comparison (e.g. with the Retrieval) would be most revealing if it were possible to go directly to those tracks which actually come from originals rather than the 1950s dubs used for the Retrieval.

                If you've been collecting for any length of time, you grow wary of claims made for reissues.

                Michael Rader

                Karlsruhe, Germany

                >
                > Please explore the Archeophone site a little further and read the
                > comments from Dan Morgenstern, George Avakian and others AND even
                > better -- listen to the examples provided.
                >
                > Best
                >
                > David Sager

                _______________________________________________________________________
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              • David Brown
                For instance. There is only one copy of Gennett 5275 ( Workingman/Zulus ) extant. Who owns this and was it made available for re-mastering or even
                Message 7 of 25 , Nov 6, 2006
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                  For instance. There is only one copy of Gennett 5275 ( Workingman/Zulus )
                  extant.

                  Who owns this and was it made available for re-mastering or even 'mastering'
                  ?


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • davidsager1958
                  Hi Michael The samples, I think, are all representative and consistent, so I don t think that any one particular is better than another. Do, however, sample
                  Message 8 of 25 , Nov 7, 2006
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                    Hi Michael

                    The samples, I think, are all representative and consistent, so I
                    don't think that any one particular is better than another.

                    Do, however, sample "Krooked Blues" -- Joe Oliver's blues style is so
                    very evident on this one as he is rather exposed.

                    Perhaps if you play a bit of the Retrieval on your computer speakers
                    and then try a few samples, then you can get an idea...or perhaps
                    rote your computer through your stereo system...

                    David


                    RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > David,
                    >
                    > Could you please provide suggestions *which* tracks are best to
                    sample the improvement. As I've said before, most computers don't
                    provide really good listening experience and a comparison (e.g. with
                    the Retrieval) would be most revealing if it were possible to go
                    directly to those tracks which actually come from originals rather
                    than the 1950s dubs used for the Retrieval.
                    >
                    > If you've been collecting for any length of time, you grow wary of
                    claims made for reissues.
                    >
                    > Michael Rader
                    >
                    > Karlsruhe, Germany
                    >
                    > >
                    > > Please explore the Archeophone site a little further and read the
                    > > comments from Dan Morgenstern, George Avakian and others AND even
                    > > better -- listen to the examples provided.
                    > >
                    > > Best
                    > >
                    > > David Sager
                    >
                    >
                    ______________________________________________________________________
                    _
                    > Viren-Scan für Ihren PC! Jetzt für jeden. Sofort, online und
                    kostenlos.
                    > Gleich testen! http://www.pc-sicherheit.web.de/freescan/?mc=022222
                    >
                  • davidsager1958
                    OKeh, I re-read your question and have a somewhat better answer... Krooked Blues as it turns out was one of the dubs that John R. T. had used on the
                    Message 9 of 25 , Nov 7, 2006
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                      OKeh, I re-read your question and have a somewhat better answer...

                      "Krooked Blues" as it turns out was one of the dubs that John R. T.
                      had used on the Retireval/King Jazz set. Therefore "Alligator Hop"
                      was from a dub as well.

                      I'll try and find out which others came from dubbed sources.



                      In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > David,
                      >
                      > Could you please provide suggestions *which* tracks are best to
                      sample the improvement. As I've said before, most computers don't
                      provide really good listening experience and a comparison (e.g. with
                      the Retrieval) would be most revealing if it were possible to go
                      directly to those tracks which actually come from originals rather
                      than the 1950s dubs used for the Retrieval.
                      >
                      > If you've been collecting for any length of time, you grow wary of
                      claims made for reissues.
                      >
                      > Michael Rader
                      >
                      > Karlsruhe, Germany
                      >
                      > >
                      > > Please explore the Archeophone site a little further and read the
                      > > comments from Dan Morgenstern, George Avakian and others AND even
                      > > better -- listen to the examples provided.
                      > >
                      > > Best
                      > >
                      > > David Sager
                      >
                      >
                      ______________________________________________________________________
                      _
                      > Viren-Scan für Ihren PC! Jetzt für jeden. Sofort, online und
                      kostenlos.
                      > Gleich testen! http://www.pc-sicherheit.web.de/freescan/?mc=022222
                      >
                    • Patrice Champarou
                      ... From: davidsager1958 To: Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 3:26 PM Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: NEW
                      Message 10 of 25 , Nov 7, 2006
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                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "davidsager1958" <davidsager1958@...>
                        To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 3:26 PM
                        Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: NEW KING OLIVER REISSUE


                        > OKeh, I re-read your question and have a somewhat better answer...

                        ... but the previous one hasn't arrived yet! ;-(

                        I'm sorry, David, the Yahoogroup server has strange delays, I cannot even
                        remove the moderation feature because it hasn't shown your name yet!

                        Patrice (creeping in the RHJ basement)
                      • David Brown
                        Having further investigated the Archeophone site I find my earlier question answered and that the copy of Gennett 5275 was used. However, the link in the text
                        Message 11 of 25 , Nov 7, 2006
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                          Having further investigated the Archeophone site I find my earlier question
                          answered and that the copy of Gennett 5275 was used.

                          However, the link in the text referring to Gennett 5275 plays the Okeh '
                          Working Man ' --- confusing.

                          The track list further down does indeed play the Gennett.

                          The transcriptions cited as 'dubs' on the Retrieval -- ' Krooked' and
                          'Alligator' -- even if so, are among the best on that issue and I cannot
                          hear any improvement on the limited clip available from Archeophone.

                          But PC soundstream never is a fair test but generally the Archeophone sound
                          seems good but then so is the Retrieval.




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • stewmclean
                          Many thanks for the inf. Sue,sounds like it s worth while adding the set to the collcetion.Just to hear anything new by Johnny Dodds would make it money well
                          Message 12 of 25 , Nov 8, 2006
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                            Many thanks for the inf. Sue,sounds like it's worth while
                            adding the set to the collcetion.Just to hear anything new by Johnny
                            Dodds would make it money well spent.
                            Stewart
                            --------------------------------------------------------
                            --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, loerchen2@... wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Well, I just got my copy today (thanks, David!) and it is
                            everything I hoped
                            > it would be. I'm amazed at the clarity and balance of the
                            music. Best of
                            > all, I just discovered some Johnny Dodds riffs that I've never
                            heard before,
                            > and the liner notes are excellent. This is a keeper!
                            >
                            > Sue
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • David Brown
                            Sue What side are the newly discovered Dodds riffs on ? I cannot find timings for the Archeophone, can anybody oblige ? I m interested in what pitch
                            Message 13 of 25 , Nov 8, 2006
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                              Sue

                              What side are the newly discovered Dodds riffs on ?

                              I cannot find timings for the Archeophone, can anybody oblige ?

                              I'm interested in what pitch 'corrections' have been made v.v. the
                              Retrieval.

                              Dave




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Hugh Crozier
                              Sorry - I ve missed something here. What is this about newly discovered Dodds riffs? Being a huge fan I would love to hear them. Hugh ... From: David Brown
                              Message 14 of 25 , Nov 9, 2006
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                                Sorry - I've missed something here. What is this about newly discovered Dodds riffs? Being a huge fan I would love to hear them.

                                Hugh


                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
                                To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Thursday, 9 November, 2006 7:51:31 AM
                                Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: NEW KING OLIVER REISSUE

                                Sue

                                What side are the newly discovered Dodds riffs on ?

                                I cannot find timings for the Archeophone, can anybody oblige ?

                                I'm interested in what pitch 'corrections' have been made v.v. the
                                Retrieval.

                                Dave

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                              • David Brown
                                David implied that the King Jazz and Retrieval sets are synonymous. This never was so and I ve just relistened. The Retrieval is far far superior. More body,
                                Message 15 of 25 , Nov 9, 2006
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                                  David implied that the King Jazz and Retrieval sets are synonymous. This
                                  never was so and I've just relistened. The Retrieval is far far superior.
                                  More body, resonance, space, detail and dynamics, albeit at the acceptable
                                  cost of more surface.

                                  If indeed these are from the same JRT tape --- and they certainly sound as
                                  if from the same copies -- and assuming that no further filtering
                                  /equalising etc, digital or otherwise, was imposed by King Jazz -- ( and I
                                  suspect it was ) --then this indicates just how influential the actual
                                  digitalising process is.


                                  Dave




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • spacelights
                                  ... superior. ... acceptable ... sound as ... and I ... The implication perhaps wasn t intentional, but the use of the singular word set could cause someone
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Nov 10, 2006
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                                    --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > David implied that the King Jazz and Retrieval sets are synonymous. This
                                    > never was so and I've just relistened. The Retrieval is far far
                                    superior.
                                    > More body, resonance, space, detail and dynamics, albeit at the
                                    acceptable
                                    > cost of more surface.
                                    >
                                    > If indeed these are from the same JRT tape --- and they certainly
                                    sound as
                                    > if from the same copies -- and assuming that no further filtering
                                    > /equalising etc, digital or otherwise, was imposed by King Jazz -- (
                                    and I
                                    > suspect it was ) --then this indicates just how influential the actual
                                    > digitalising process is.

                                    The implication perhaps wasn't intentional, but the use of the
                                    singular word "set" could cause someone to think the two CDs were the
                                    same...

                                    I've noticed a somewhat similar dichotomy between King Jazz and
                                    Retrieval CD issues of Morton's 1923-1924 solos, which I'm guessing
                                    came from identical transfers. King Jazz does have more surface
                                    noise, and the sound varies a bit from track to track. In a few
                                    cases, this may provide a greater opportunity for equalization "to
                                    taste," at the lisener's discretion. I like the character of the
                                    Retrieval sound, which seems more uniform--usually something achieved
                                    through mastering.

                                    King Jazz credits John R.T. for "Transfers," Cesar Garcia for
                                    "Pre-mastering Re-recording," and Digipro for "DAT Mastering."
                                    Retrieval simply credits John R.T. with "Audio Restoration."

                                    John
                                  • davidsager1958
                                    Hello Friends, John R. T. told someone...I cannot recall who it was now, that both King Jazz and Retrieval were from the same tapes. I agree that the
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Nov 10, 2006
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                                      Hello Friends,

                                      John R. T. told someone...I cannot recall who it was now, that both
                                      King Jazz and Retrieval were from the same tapes. I agree that the
                                      Retrieval set sounds better than the King Jazz.

                                      I'll never forget the one time I visited John and he played me the
                                      tape of his restoration of Oliver's "Mandy Lee Blues" -- it was
                                      thrilling! He was a brilliant man.

                                      David

                                      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "spacelights" <spacelights@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > David implied that the King Jazz and Retrieval sets are
                                      synonymous. This
                                      > > never was so and I've just relistened. The Retrieval is far far
                                      > superior.
                                      > > More body, resonance, space, detail and dynamics, albeit at the
                                      > acceptable
                                      > > cost of more surface.
                                      > >
                                      > > If indeed these are from the same JRT tape --- and they certainly
                                      > sound as
                                      > > if from the same copies -- and assuming that no further filtering
                                      > > /equalising etc, digital or otherwise, was imposed by King Jazz --
                                      (
                                      > and I
                                      > > suspect it was ) --then this indicates just how influential the
                                      actual
                                      > > digitalising process is.
                                      >
                                      > The implication perhaps wasn't intentional, but the use of the
                                      > singular word "set" could cause someone to think the two CDs were
                                      the
                                      > same...
                                      >
                                      > I've noticed a somewhat similar dichotomy between King Jazz and
                                      > Retrieval CD issues of Morton's 1923-1924 solos, which I'm guessing
                                      > came from identical transfers. King Jazz does have more surface
                                      > noise, and the sound varies a bit from track to track. In a few
                                      > cases, this may provide a greater opportunity for equalization "to
                                      > taste," at the lisener's discretion. I like the character of the
                                      > Retrieval sound, which seems more uniform--usually something
                                      achieved
                                      > through mastering.
                                      >
                                      > King Jazz credits John R.T. for "Transfers," Cesar Garcia for
                                      > "Pre-mastering Re-recording," and Digipro for "DAT Mastering."
                                      > Retrieval simply credits John R.T. with "Audio Restoration."
                                      >
                                      > John
                                      >
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