Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [RedHotJazz] NEW KING OLIVER REISSUE

Expand Messages
  • Michael Rader
    First remastering in decades to me suggests lacking awareness of the Retrieval set. Even so, I would wait until passing judgement over Archeophone, or
    Message 1 of 25 , Nov 5, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      "First remastering in decades" to me suggests lacking awareness of the Retrieval set.

      Even so, I would wait until passing judgement over Archeophone, or whoever it was who is producing this set (I think strictly speaking it is a separate endeavour). The blurb insinuates that the set uses a freshly assembled set of originals and that half the trick was actually playing them properly. The engineer, Doug Benson, did good work on the Hit of the Week recordings (at least Vol. 1, I don't have vol. 2) and does respect the original sound of the 78s.

      I'm not sure what kind of sources were available to John RT Davies for the Retrievals and how extensive the search for better copies was. In fact I seem to recall someone telling me that John had to resort to tape dubs made in the 1950s in some cases, since the original 78s were no longer in as good condition. David French sent me a cassette dub of one of the OKehs which sounded very good and fresh, suggesting that there would have been room for improvement, had John RT have had access to better condition originals. Archeophone highlights the *consistency* of the new set and claims that even the intro to "Zulu's Ball" sounds good .- unfortunately they don't include it in the sample.

      Archeophones are usually very lovingly produced - some of their early productions were however marred by digital artifacts. These have gradually been replaced with upgraded audio quality, usually adding tracks, and improved booklets. The "year" series are particularly attractive, having information both on the music and the social background.

      I would be interested to hear opinions from people who have heard both sets - even if $30 isn't quite peanuts, it would be worth the expenditure to hear really improved versions of these classics. Oh, and even then the Retrieval wouldn't quite be redundant since it has the Oliver/Morton duos and the Oliver accompaniments to Butterbeans and Susie.

      Michael Rader
      >
      >
      > I baulk at the blurb --'first remastering for decades'
      >
      > The JRT Retrieval of 1995 was a profound revelation. Can this be bettered ?
      >
      > What source used for remastering ?
      >
      > What is non-invasive ?
      > .
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >


      _____________________________________________________________________
      Der WEB.DE SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen!
      http://smartsurfer.web.de/?mc=100071&distributionid=000000000066
    • Michael Rader
      Discussions on the Red Hot Jazz list do not go unnoticed - little wonder now that we re approaching the 400 subscriber mark. As a result of the debate on the
      Message 2 of 25 , Nov 6, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Discussions on the "Red Hot Jazz" list do not go unnoticed - little wonder now that we're approaching the 400 subscriber mark. As a result of the debate on the new King Oliver set on Archeophone, I received an e-mail from Richard Martin, one of Archeophone's owners/producers. Richard attached an e-mail from engineer Doug Benson which throws light on the new production and confirms many things I speculated on in my own e-mail on the subject:


        " I'm not surprised that some collectors might have a somewhat 'glandular'
        reaction to the Oliver advertising-- it would be easy to assume that our
        claims are some kind of attack on the integrity or talent of John R. T. Davies.
        In actuality, John was a friend of mine, and the whole inspiration for this
        reissue came from an email that he sent to me in 2002. The quote below
        is taken from that email, and is in fact also included in my booklet notes for the project.

        <<In 2002 the late John R. T. Davies wrote to me: "I understand your
        disenchantment with reissues of the Oliver Creole Band. When I did them last
        time I took a different approach... rather than kill the surface or accent
        the two cornets, I attempted to rebuild the BAND. They're not beautiful (I
        didn't have access to originals of many) but at time of writing, that set is
        the best we have." I believe that this reissue approaches what John might
        have created with access to improved source material, and it would not exist
        without his guidance and encouragement.>>"

        As I said in my e-mail, the new release has gone back to source and uses fresh remasters of all the recordings.

        Doug Benson incidentally dedicated Volume 1 of the Hit of the Week recordings on Archeophone to the memory of John RT Davies.

        Michael Rader
        Karlsruhe,
        Germany



        _______________________________________________________________________
        Viren-Scan für Ihren PC! Jetzt für jeden. Sofort, online und kostenlos.
        Gleich testen! http://www.pc-sicherheit.web.de/freescan/?mc=022222
      • davidsager1958
        I think I can clear up the confusion: This is in fact the first time in decades that all 37 titles by the Oliver 1923 band have been newly transferred and
        Message 3 of 25 , Nov 6, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          I think I can clear up the confusion:

          This is in fact the first time in decades that all 37 titles by the
          Oliver 1923 band have been newly transferred and remastered. The
          Retrieval set used a few dubbed titles plus some transfers that Mr.
          Davies did back in the 50s.

          Please explore the Archeophone site a little further and read the
          comments from Dan Morgenstern, George Avakian and others AND even
          better -- listen to the examples provided.

          Best

          David Sager


          -- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Hugh Crozier <jellyrollstomp@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > I share this opinion. I doubt if the JRT issue can be improved.
          >
          > Hugh
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message ----
          > From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
          > To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Sunday, 5 November, 2006 9:36:39 AM
          > Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] NEW KING OLIVER REISSUE
          >
          > I baulk at the blurb --'first remastering for decades'
          >
          > The JRT Retrieval of 1995 was a profound revelation. Can this be
          bettered ?
          >
          > What source used for remastering ?
          >
          > What is non-invasive ?
          > .
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Send instant messages to your online friends
          http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • john schott
          Thanks for posting this - I imagine it s what many of us ASSUMED, on some level, but I appreciate it. ... From: Michael Rader To:
          Message 4 of 25 , Nov 6, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            Thanks for posting this - I imagine it's what many of us ASSUMED, on some
            level, but I appreciate it.

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Michael Rader" <Rader.Michael@...>
            To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 1:39 PM
            Subject: Re: [RedHotJazz] NEW KING OLIVER REISSUE


            > Discussions on the "Red Hot Jazz" list do not go unnoticed - little wonder
            > now that we're approaching the 400 subscriber mark. As a result of the
            > debate on the new King Oliver set on Archeophone, I received an e-mail
            > from Richard Martin, one of Archeophone's owners/producers. Richard
            > attached an e-mail from engineer Doug Benson which throws light on the new
            > production and confirms many things I speculated on in my own e-mail on
            > the subject:
            >
            >
            > " I'm not surprised that some collectors might have a somewhat 'glandular'
            > reaction to the Oliver advertising-- it would be easy to assume that our
            > claims are some kind of attack on the integrity or talent of John R. T.
            > Davies.
            > In actuality, John was a friend of mine, and the whole inspiration for
            > this
            > reissue came from an email that he sent to me in 2002. The quote below
            > is taken from that email, and is in fact also included in my booklet notes
            > for the project.
            >
            > <<In 2002 the late John R. T. Davies wrote to me: "I understand your
            > disenchantment with reissues of the Oliver Creole Band. When I did them
            > last
            > time I took a different approach... rather than kill the surface or accent
            > the two cornets, I attempted to rebuild the BAND. They're not beautiful (I
            > didn't have access to originals of many) but at time of writing, that set
            > is
            > the best we have." I believe that this reissue approaches what John might
            > have created with access to improved source material, and it would not
            > exist
            > without his guidance and encouragement.>>"
            >
            > As I said in my e-mail, the new release has gone back to source and uses
            > fresh remasters of all the recordings.
            >
            > Doug Benson incidentally dedicated Volume 1 of the Hit of the Week
            > recordings on Archeophone to the memory of John RT Davies.
            >
            > Michael Rader
            > Karlsruhe,
            > Germany
          • loerchen2@aol.com
            Well, I just got my copy today (thanks, David!) and it is everything I hoped it would be. I m amazed at the clarity and balance of the music. Best of all,
            Message 5 of 25 , Nov 6, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Well, I just got my copy today (thanks, David!) and it is everything I hoped
              it would be. I'm amazed at the clarity and balance of the music. Best of
              all, I just discovered some Johnny Dodds riffs that I've never heard before,
              and the liner notes are excellent. This is a keeper!

              Sue



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • spacelights
              In my opinion, the word remastered fosters confusion as well... If an album or collection has been remastered, this means the very same
              Message 6 of 25 , Nov 6, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                In my opinion, the word "remastered" fosters confusion as well... If
                an album or collection has been remastered, this means the very same
                source--collectively--was mastered once before. If these are indeed
                new transfers, then the disc is newly mastered, not remastered.

                --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "davidsager1958"
                <davidsager1958@...> wrote:
                >
                > I think I can clear up the confusion:
                >
                > This is in fact the first time in decades that all 37 titles by the
                > Oliver 1923 band have been newly transferred and remastered. The
                > Retrieval set used a few dubbed titles plus some transfers that Mr.
                > Davies did back in the 50s.
              • Michael Rader
                David, Could you please provide suggestions *which* tracks are best to sample the improvement. As I ve said before, most computers don t provide really good
                Message 7 of 25 , Nov 6, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  David,

                  Could you please provide suggestions *which* tracks are best to sample the improvement. As I've said before, most computers don't provide really good listening experience and a comparison (e.g. with the Retrieval) would be most revealing if it were possible to go directly to those tracks which actually come from originals rather than the 1950s dubs used for the Retrieval.

                  If you've been collecting for any length of time, you grow wary of claims made for reissues.

                  Michael Rader

                  Karlsruhe, Germany

                  >
                  > Please explore the Archeophone site a little further and read the
                  > comments from Dan Morgenstern, George Avakian and others AND even
                  > better -- listen to the examples provided.
                  >
                  > Best
                  >
                  > David Sager

                  _______________________________________________________________________
                  Viren-Scan für Ihren PC! Jetzt für jeden. Sofort, online und kostenlos.
                  Gleich testen! http://www.pc-sicherheit.web.de/freescan/?mc=022222
                • David Brown
                  For instance. There is only one copy of Gennett 5275 ( Workingman/Zulus ) extant. Who owns this and was it made available for re-mastering or even
                  Message 8 of 25 , Nov 6, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    For instance. There is only one copy of Gennett 5275 ( Workingman/Zulus )
                    extant.

                    Who owns this and was it made available for re-mastering or even 'mastering'
                    ?


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • davidsager1958
                    Hi Michael The samples, I think, are all representative and consistent, so I don t think that any one particular is better than another. Do, however, sample
                    Message 9 of 25 , Nov 7, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Michael

                      The samples, I think, are all representative and consistent, so I
                      don't think that any one particular is better than another.

                      Do, however, sample "Krooked Blues" -- Joe Oliver's blues style is so
                      very evident on this one as he is rather exposed.

                      Perhaps if you play a bit of the Retrieval on your computer speakers
                      and then try a few samples, then you can get an idea...or perhaps
                      rote your computer through your stereo system...

                      David


                      RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > David,
                      >
                      > Could you please provide suggestions *which* tracks are best to
                      sample the improvement. As I've said before, most computers don't
                      provide really good listening experience and a comparison (e.g. with
                      the Retrieval) would be most revealing if it were possible to go
                      directly to those tracks which actually come from originals rather
                      than the 1950s dubs used for the Retrieval.
                      >
                      > If you've been collecting for any length of time, you grow wary of
                      claims made for reissues.
                      >
                      > Michael Rader
                      >
                      > Karlsruhe, Germany
                      >
                      > >
                      > > Please explore the Archeophone site a little further and read the
                      > > comments from Dan Morgenstern, George Avakian and others AND even
                      > > better -- listen to the examples provided.
                      > >
                      > > Best
                      > >
                      > > David Sager
                      >
                      >
                      ______________________________________________________________________
                      _
                      > Viren-Scan für Ihren PC! Jetzt für jeden. Sofort, online und
                      kostenlos.
                      > Gleich testen! http://www.pc-sicherheit.web.de/freescan/?mc=022222
                      >
                    • davidsager1958
                      OKeh, I re-read your question and have a somewhat better answer... Krooked Blues as it turns out was one of the dubs that John R. T. had used on the
                      Message 10 of 25 , Nov 7, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        OKeh, I re-read your question and have a somewhat better answer...

                        "Krooked Blues" as it turns out was one of the dubs that John R. T.
                        had used on the Retireval/King Jazz set. Therefore "Alligator Hop"
                        was from a dub as well.

                        I'll try and find out which others came from dubbed sources.



                        In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, Michael Rader <Rader.Michael@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > David,
                        >
                        > Could you please provide suggestions *which* tracks are best to
                        sample the improvement. As I've said before, most computers don't
                        provide really good listening experience and a comparison (e.g. with
                        the Retrieval) would be most revealing if it were possible to go
                        directly to those tracks which actually come from originals rather
                        than the 1950s dubs used for the Retrieval.
                        >
                        > If you've been collecting for any length of time, you grow wary of
                        claims made for reissues.
                        >
                        > Michael Rader
                        >
                        > Karlsruhe, Germany
                        >
                        > >
                        > > Please explore the Archeophone site a little further and read the
                        > > comments from Dan Morgenstern, George Avakian and others AND even
                        > > better -- listen to the examples provided.
                        > >
                        > > Best
                        > >
                        > > David Sager
                        >
                        >
                        ______________________________________________________________________
                        _
                        > Viren-Scan für Ihren PC! Jetzt für jeden. Sofort, online und
                        kostenlos.
                        > Gleich testen! http://www.pc-sicherheit.web.de/freescan/?mc=022222
                        >
                      • Patrice Champarou
                        ... From: davidsager1958 To: Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 3:26 PM Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: NEW
                        Message 11 of 25 , Nov 7, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "davidsager1958" <davidsager1958@...>
                          To: <RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 3:26 PM
                          Subject: [RedHotJazz] Re: NEW KING OLIVER REISSUE


                          > OKeh, I re-read your question and have a somewhat better answer...

                          ... but the previous one hasn't arrived yet! ;-(

                          I'm sorry, David, the Yahoogroup server has strange delays, I cannot even
                          remove the moderation feature because it hasn't shown your name yet!

                          Patrice (creeping in the RHJ basement)
                        • David Brown
                          Having further investigated the Archeophone site I find my earlier question answered and that the copy of Gennett 5275 was used. However, the link in the text
                          Message 12 of 25 , Nov 7, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Having further investigated the Archeophone site I find my earlier question
                            answered and that the copy of Gennett 5275 was used.

                            However, the link in the text referring to Gennett 5275 plays the Okeh '
                            Working Man ' --- confusing.

                            The track list further down does indeed play the Gennett.

                            The transcriptions cited as 'dubs' on the Retrieval -- ' Krooked' and
                            'Alligator' -- even if so, are among the best on that issue and I cannot
                            hear any improvement on the limited clip available from Archeophone.

                            But PC soundstream never is a fair test but generally the Archeophone sound
                            seems good but then so is the Retrieval.




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • stewmclean
                            Many thanks for the inf. Sue,sounds like it s worth while adding the set to the collcetion.Just to hear anything new by Johnny Dodds would make it money well
                            Message 13 of 25 , Nov 8, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Many thanks for the inf. Sue,sounds like it's worth while
                              adding the set to the collcetion.Just to hear anything new by Johnny
                              Dodds would make it money well spent.
                              Stewart
                              --------------------------------------------------------
                              --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, loerchen2@... wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Well, I just got my copy today (thanks, David!) and it is
                              everything I hoped
                              > it would be. I'm amazed at the clarity and balance of the
                              music. Best of
                              > all, I just discovered some Johnny Dodds riffs that I've never
                              heard before,
                              > and the liner notes are excellent. This is a keeper!
                              >
                              > Sue
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • David Brown
                              Sue What side are the newly discovered Dodds riffs on ? I cannot find timings for the Archeophone, can anybody oblige ? I m interested in what pitch
                              Message 14 of 25 , Nov 8, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Sue

                                What side are the newly discovered Dodds riffs on ?

                                I cannot find timings for the Archeophone, can anybody oblige ?

                                I'm interested in what pitch 'corrections' have been made v.v. the
                                Retrieval.

                                Dave




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Hugh Crozier
                                Sorry - I ve missed something here. What is this about newly discovered Dodds riffs? Being a huge fan I would love to hear them. Hugh ... From: David Brown
                                Message 15 of 25 , Nov 9, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Sorry - I've missed something here. What is this about newly discovered Dodds riffs? Being a huge fan I would love to hear them.

                                  Hugh


                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: David Brown <johnhaleysims@...>
                                  To: RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Thursday, 9 November, 2006 7:51:31 AM
                                  Subject: RE: [RedHotJazz] Re: NEW KING OLIVER REISSUE

                                  Sue

                                  What side are the newly discovered Dodds riffs on ?

                                  I cannot find timings for the Archeophone, can anybody oblige ?

                                  I'm interested in what pitch 'corrections' have been made v.v. the
                                  Retrieval.

                                  Dave

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                  Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • David Brown
                                  David implied that the King Jazz and Retrieval sets are synonymous. This never was so and I ve just relistened. The Retrieval is far far superior. More body,
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Nov 9, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    David implied that the King Jazz and Retrieval sets are synonymous. This
                                    never was so and I've just relistened. The Retrieval is far far superior.
                                    More body, resonance, space, detail and dynamics, albeit at the acceptable
                                    cost of more surface.

                                    If indeed these are from the same JRT tape --- and they certainly sound as
                                    if from the same copies -- and assuming that no further filtering
                                    /equalising etc, digital or otherwise, was imposed by King Jazz -- ( and I
                                    suspect it was ) --then this indicates just how influential the actual
                                    digitalising process is.


                                    Dave




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • spacelights
                                    ... superior. ... acceptable ... sound as ... and I ... The implication perhaps wasn t intentional, but the use of the singular word set could cause someone
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Nov 10, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > David implied that the King Jazz and Retrieval sets are synonymous. This
                                      > never was so and I've just relistened. The Retrieval is far far
                                      superior.
                                      > More body, resonance, space, detail and dynamics, albeit at the
                                      acceptable
                                      > cost of more surface.
                                      >
                                      > If indeed these are from the same JRT tape --- and they certainly
                                      sound as
                                      > if from the same copies -- and assuming that no further filtering
                                      > /equalising etc, digital or otherwise, was imposed by King Jazz -- (
                                      and I
                                      > suspect it was ) --then this indicates just how influential the actual
                                      > digitalising process is.

                                      The implication perhaps wasn't intentional, but the use of the
                                      singular word "set" could cause someone to think the two CDs were the
                                      same...

                                      I've noticed a somewhat similar dichotomy between King Jazz and
                                      Retrieval CD issues of Morton's 1923-1924 solos, which I'm guessing
                                      came from identical transfers. King Jazz does have more surface
                                      noise, and the sound varies a bit from track to track. In a few
                                      cases, this may provide a greater opportunity for equalization "to
                                      taste," at the lisener's discretion. I like the character of the
                                      Retrieval sound, which seems more uniform--usually something achieved
                                      through mastering.

                                      King Jazz credits John R.T. for "Transfers," Cesar Garcia for
                                      "Pre-mastering Re-recording," and Digipro for "DAT Mastering."
                                      Retrieval simply credits John R.T. with "Audio Restoration."

                                      John
                                    • davidsager1958
                                      Hello Friends, John R. T. told someone...I cannot recall who it was now, that both King Jazz and Retrieval were from the same tapes. I agree that the
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Nov 10, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hello Friends,

                                        John R. T. told someone...I cannot recall who it was now, that both
                                        King Jazz and Retrieval were from the same tapes. I agree that the
                                        Retrieval set sounds better than the King Jazz.

                                        I'll never forget the one time I visited John and he played me the
                                        tape of his restoration of Oliver's "Mandy Lee Blues" -- it was
                                        thrilling! He was a brilliant man.

                                        David

                                        --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "spacelights" <spacelights@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > --- In RedHotJazz@yahoogroups.com, "David Brown" <johnhaleysims@>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > David implied that the King Jazz and Retrieval sets are
                                        synonymous. This
                                        > > never was so and I've just relistened. The Retrieval is far far
                                        > superior.
                                        > > More body, resonance, space, detail and dynamics, albeit at the
                                        > acceptable
                                        > > cost of more surface.
                                        > >
                                        > > If indeed these are from the same JRT tape --- and they certainly
                                        > sound as
                                        > > if from the same copies -- and assuming that no further filtering
                                        > > /equalising etc, digital or otherwise, was imposed by King Jazz --
                                        (
                                        > and I
                                        > > suspect it was ) --then this indicates just how influential the
                                        actual
                                        > > digitalising process is.
                                        >
                                        > The implication perhaps wasn't intentional, but the use of the
                                        > singular word "set" could cause someone to think the two CDs were
                                        the
                                        > same...
                                        >
                                        > I've noticed a somewhat similar dichotomy between King Jazz and
                                        > Retrieval CD issues of Morton's 1923-1924 solos, which I'm guessing
                                        > came from identical transfers. King Jazz does have more surface
                                        > noise, and the sound varies a bit from track to track. In a few
                                        > cases, this may provide a greater opportunity for equalization "to
                                        > taste," at the lisener's discretion. I like the character of the
                                        > Retrieval sound, which seems more uniform--usually something
                                        achieved
                                        > through mastering.
                                        >
                                        > King Jazz credits John R.T. for "Transfers," Cesar Garcia for
                                        > "Pre-mastering Re-recording," and Digipro for "DAT Mastering."
                                        > Retrieval simply credits John R.T. with "Audio Restoration."
                                        >
                                        > John
                                        >
                                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.